KCBS TOY Calculations

[Ford]

Amen Brother!

This system seems skewed, too... There will be "sweet spots" and "dead spots" showing up in the possible combinations of # teams and place in the comp... We will need to target comps with as many teams as possible as long as there aren't more than 100 teams. After 100 teams, the comp size "adder" loses value. Look at some examples...

10th place in a 25 team comp = 125 points = DEAD LAST in a 100 team comp.

How about: 2nd place at a 25 team comp = 5 place at a 500 team comp?

Seems like people who voted on this system may not have looked very closely at the math first....

Just my $0.02.

How about a team enters 10 contests with 100 teams and finihses DAL in all of them. They still have 1250 points. Another team say on the east coast does 3 comps and wins all but with only 30 bonus points each and they have 840 points. So 10 DAL's is better than 3 GC's. And yes I know that's the extreme buy when they put in the old system having 2 teams with 5 - 15 point wins was unheard of.

I agree people looked at breaking the first place ties and then said lets make sure we include everybody but we don't want to make it hard to maintain so after 23rd place, everybody gets the same. After all anybody serious will cook at least 10 comps.

Well just maybe some people cook less and like to see their success rewarded. Like I said on another board I think this is an example of looking after the big guys and not thinking about the little guys.

Anybody else here remember looking at the TOY to see their name for the first time because they finally got a top 5 finish in a category or overall? Anybody remember the first time they saw their name in all 5? I do but under this new system I no longer care about seeing it. 3 GC's can count for less than 10 DAL's.

 

[butts a fire]

After reading all of this I think it is a step in a good direction there is one tweak I would make though in the interest of fairness As Ford pointed out 3 gc's in small constest would be worth less than 10 DALs in large contests the fix for this would be easy all you have to do is have the multiplier deminish for each position down that way poor finishes at large contests are not rewarded more than good finishes at small contests. Using Fords example the team with 3 gc's would still get the same # of points but the last place team would only end up with 250. To use the AR as an example you would have to finish in the top 100 to get any bonus points I think it is fair to say that if you finish anywhere inside the top 100 at the AR you deserve some bonus points but if you finish DAL you don't. To me this makes more since all the way around it still rewards teams more for good finishes at larger contests but does not reward teams for just competing in them. I personally only compete in 4 to 5 contests a year so I do not have a stake in the TOY but I would not feel good about my team finishing ahead of a team that is winning some where else simply because I had access to larger contests.

 

[lunchlady]

I guess I'm still for using ACTUAL points scored by a team at a contest to determine the TOY standings.

I do understand that coming in third overall at a 100 team contest should maybe count more than coming in third overall at a 25 team contest, but these other systems still have issues as well.

Kudos to KCBS for trying though.

 

[The Pickled Pig]

Do It Yourself Rankings

You can test an approximation of the new scoring sytem as well as create your own unique ranking system and test it against 2007 data here.

Have fun and let me know if you have any problems with the rankings engine.

 

[Muzzlebrake]

I think the KCBS should adopt the BCS system
:twisted:
:biggrin:

 

[Plowboy]

The new system look to be capped at 10 contests. It would be interesting to see how this would have worked out for 2007 but that would be a huge task to back a calculate.

You can test an approximation of the new scoring sytem as well as create your own unique ranking system and test it against 2007 data here.

Have fun and let me know if you have any problems with the rankings engine.

Not so huge after all. :biggrin:

63rd under the new system. Nice!

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

As I think we have seen in the past people like to see their names on rankings. If this is a "hard core" only competition award system, seems the backyard, occasional competitor is out of the loop, out of the loop and make people feel less inclined to be interested and then the relativity of the KCBS to the backyard, occasional competitor, rapidly declines. we should know what happens when an organization ceases to be relative to the masses of it members. Don't ask how I know. But any new system should work to expand recognition and not to exclude more. Scott

I see what you are saying here.... Although it is concidered professional competition, and not backyard, I feel like I am not as professional as some. I was only able to make 2 competitions this last year. So, therefore, since I don't compete in say, 25 so more comps a year, and did not make any categories in the top 10, I have no points for last year. I did the year before....

This sounds like it will give the ones like myself that could not make it to "all" of the competitions because of work, etc., a little more chance of a little bit of a chance to at least let others know we are at least trying to compete against the "big boys".

Maybe when I retire, get rich, have the large motor home, pull behind automatic cooker, I too will be able to make it to "ALL" of the comps.... then I can be one of the "big boys" and will be able to look down at the "little boys" that are working for a living, and can't make it to but only a couple of competitions and remember what it was like and be able to walk up to one and say, "Welcome to the circuit. I hope you enjoy it and will continue to see me more....... what can I do to help you enjoy your experience?"

I have been to a few comps, and walked around like most of us do and try to introduce myself... wow... was I shocked at a few of the "big boys" that in my opinion only took a moment to just say hi, and I felt the vibes of "hurry up and get outta here".......

They need to look back at the time when they started out..... and just remember...

No, I do not want your secrets, I am only trying to be friendly, and meet my competition....

Enjoy your time, I do .....

 

[Ford]

New thoughts on the new TOY system

I think that the new system is really going to make significant changes in peoples schedules. In previous years those triple points contests drew all the big names. But now a GC at a little old 20 team East Coast contest gets 270 points for GC. You have to finish 2nd at a 50 team contest to do better than that or 4th at a 100 team contest. Why would Tuffy and others drive hundreds of miles when they could stay close to home. So long as it's a qualifier the number of teams is no longer nearly as important.

Now in IL, WI and IA there are lots of 30-50 team contests and 25 is still the number for the Royal qualifier but why would Quau go way south to compete with all the big names when he can go 100 miles to WI or IA and compete.

Bottom line is nobody gets 10 GC's right now so the more GC/RC you can bank at any size contest the better your chances at TOY.

 

[Jorge]

Now in IL, WI and IA there are lots of 30-50 team contests and 25 is still the number for the Royal qualifier but why would Quau go way south to compete with all the big names when he can go 100 miles to WI or IA and compete.

$$$$:wink:

 

[Ford]

$$$$:wink:

I sitll think the 50K purses will draw but if GC is 5K and you can go to one that's 500 miles closer that pays 3K for GC you will sure think about it. Especially if you think you have a better chance of winning.

 

[DawgPhan]

I sent a letter to the BOD on TOY and the possibility that a team with 10 DAL's could finish ahead of a team with 3 GC's. So far I have not received a writtent reply but I did hear that it was discussed at the BOD meeting and the comment was TOY was for the big guys not the little guys. Sounds like who cares about you guys anyway. Personally I think this is just more of the MMA thinking with NASCAR like dreams. Next year I won't care what TOY results are unless I get real lucky this year with my 7 or 8 contests. I consider it a real honor for a team that cooked 5 contests to finish tied for 39th in chicken out of all the teams that compete. But points for DAL the same as for 24th place?????

I moved this over here because I thought that it was a good comment and wanted to comment on it, but didnt want to derail the other thread.

Before the TOY program was announce Troy emailed me about it and what I thought about it. We exchanged some emails and I expressed some opinions about it and whatnot...the main point being that it was devaluing the GC by giving out so many points...His reply was that the TOY is really about finding the #1 team. It is only concerned with that top spot and does a good job of determining that top spot, but it doesnt work well from 2-1600...but it wasnt built to.

 

[DawgPhan]

Oh and one other thing about the new TOY program...unless they get the team ID thing worked out very quickly they wont have the 2008 TOY done before the banquet in 2010 much less being updated in real time. I cant imagine the pain in the butt that it is going to be without the team ID program to award points for all of the big contests like Royal, GAB, and those other 100+ team events. I certianly wouldnt want to do it...

 

[slat]

I think the system needs to be worked on. I think you could give out 500 points to the first place team then deduct 25 for every place after through 6th. Then 7th-27th would be seperated by 10 points. 28th-41st by 5 points. 42nd-76th by 2 points. 77th-100th by 1 point.
After that just one point.
Bonus points should be for number of teams less one point for every place you finish below first. Can keep the cap at 100 points.