KCBS Table of Death and Angels - Idea

[ModelMaker]

No,no,no, you all are thinking backwards about this. What KCBS needs to do is whoever is leading in points, make all cooks use the same smoker and get their meat from the same source and use the same rubs and sauces and cook identically as the current winner. Then everybody can have 720's and instead of those gawdy trophies everybody gets a ribbon of participation like grade school t-ball.

Funny we don't see current point leaders complainig about judge placement....
Ed

 

[Untraceable]

I'd leave it alone. This is just a can of worms score opened. Unless we want every entry to score between 168 and 172.

 

[cpw]

No,no,no, you all are thinking backwards about this. What KCBS needs to do is whoever is leading in points, make all cooks use the same smoker and get their meat from the same source and use the same rubs and sauces and cook identically as the current winner. Then everybody can have 720's and instead of those gawdy trophies everybody gets a ribbon of participation like grade school t-ball.

Funny we don't see current point leaders complainig about judge placement....
Ed

Tim from True Bud suggested this exact thing last year on an interview with the BBQ central show.

 

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

A few things need to be done. The sorting judges according to average is one that has been talked about since KCBS score came out.

The next, and biggest thing is mandatory judge testing. Every year judges have to log in and take a test with randomly generated questions. There should also be a portion that reviews the basic judgment rules.

Pass...you are allowed to judge for a year...until the next test
Fail and you are taken to a continuing education course.Complete it Then you can take the test again.

You want across the board fairness and improved scores...focus on a part of the KCBS Mission Statement...EDUCATION.

I must say I kind of like this line of thought. I actually had a CBJ come up to me at a contest last year and say " it is a shame your not ALLOWED to turn in boneless and skinless breasts, I think they could do well". I then explained the chicken rules to them as they put there hand over their name badge.

 

[DawgPhan]

Does other sanctioning bodies have standards for taste? I have never heard such a thing and can't see how what I think is a 9 can match what someone else will think as a 9 every time.

KCBS is the gold standard for competition BBQ. They should be doing things that other sanctioning bodies dont or cant do.

Why would the standard be to get it 100% right 100% of the time? I am sure that if KCBS provided ANY guidance what so ever on taste it would tighten up taste scores. Right now they basically tell everyone to scoring according to their own personal scale.

Then cooks complain about it.

 

[ModelMaker]

Tim from True Bud suggested this exact thing last year on an interview with the BBQ central show.

Jeez, I knew somebody would come up with a name, but I think y'all get the point...
Ed

 

[Funtimebbq]

As long as the reps and BOD (same difference) do not have to do any extra work or think, then it would work. If the reps were required to supervise the movement then the Clint Eastwood movie "Heart Break Ridge" and the 'Cluster F%$3' line comes to mind. Shoot, they are even against the comment cards because it would require extra work.

I brought up the idea of sorting judges by their average score to a new rep and the response I received was "that's too much work". While I don't agree with that attitude, it is the organizer's duties to recruit judges. Therefore, if organizers could submit a list of judges membership numbers to KCBS, say a week before their contest (after a final commitment from the judges), the judges' average scores could then be calculated and a seating chart sent back to the organizer. The chart could be posted and judges could seat themselves without the Reps. having to lift a finger. No-shows would still need to be replaced but standby judges would only change the table averages slightly.

 

[Jorge]

For those that want to focus on using the arithmetic mean, I'd strongly urge you to work on tie breaking procedures beyond what's currently in place.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

So we cater to the top 1% of teams, and leave the rest to be fodder to pay for the top 1%...great idea.

KCBS has problems, as does every organization everywhere. Now the question is leave it alone and go about business as usual, and ignore that TOD's and TOA's exist. Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.

OR...

Be proactive and ensure that rules are followed, judges are the best trained, and judging in the "Premier BBQ Organization" is absolutely 100% fair for 100% of entrants.

Personally, I hate the first...

 

[peterz]

We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

 

[DawgPhan]

We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

can't roll eyes hard enough

 

[Jorge]

We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

It's not like anybody was making fun of their coolers.

 

[ModelMaker]

So we cater to the top 1% of teams, and leave the rest to be fodder to pay for the top 1%...great idea.

KCBS has problems, as does every organization everywhere. Now the question is leave it alone and go about business as usual, and ignore that TOD's and TOA's exist. Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.

OR...

Be proactive and ensure that rules are followed, judges are the best trained, and judging in the "Premier BBQ Organization" is absolutely 100% fair for 100% of entrants.

Personally, I hate the first...

My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.

I see in the June KCBS quick notes the CBJ Committee has a continuing education program nearly ready for release that covers rules and current procedures in an attempt to bring all judges to the same page.
Also,the BOD is looking in to how to use KCBScore to produce a report for judges that would allow them to see how they scored VS the rest of the table similar to cooks reports.

I don't really see KCBS sitting on their thumbs, the concern is obvious but it's a big deal to do things right and it's natural to think things through and proceed cautiously.
Ed

 

[cpw]

My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.

That's the beauty of what Rich is proposing...the judges don't necessarily have to change the way they are judging, they just don't get lumped together with the judges that score similarly.

 

[peterz]

My point was we have to stop wanting all judges to score equally (the same), it ain't in the nature of the beast, nor should we want all judges to score alike. There is no way to have judges see presentation the same, there is no way to have judges taste buds be the same, there is no way to have each judge determine the same thoughts on tenderness exactly.

All we can expect from a judge is to follow and practice the rules and procedures taught be the governing body of your BBQ organization.

I see in the June KCBS quick notes the CBJ Committee has a continuing education program nearly ready for release that covers rules and current procedures in an attempt to bring all judges to the same page.
Also,the BOD is looking in to how to use KCBScore to produce a report for judges that would allow them to see how they scored VS the rest of the table similar to cooks reports.

I don't really see KCBS sitting on their thumbs, the concern is obvious but it's a big deal to do things right and it's natural to think things through and proceed cautiously.
Ed

OK, now this is some GREAT info. Thank you.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

We should also take away judges high fees for judging and stop reimbursements for travel and hotels. Also stop paying them for taking time away from they families just to judge your BBQ.
Oh wait, that's not why they are doing it.............they are volunteers ! How about show a little respect and appreciation and STOP pooping on them !!!!!!!!

Judges have the privilege of eating BBQ that costs hundreds of dollars to make. If you were to just count entry fees, labor (let's say $10 an hour for prep, cleanup and cooking), supplies, and meat; each piece of meat a judge tastes costs about $28. So each judge eats about $560 worth of BBQ from teams. (5 boxes in 4 categories)

Now do restaurant math...multiply cost by 3
If you use this, each of the six pieces of meat in the box would sell for $84.

The judges meal in a Brick and Mortar, using proper competitve math would be $1680...

We cooks are held accountable by our scores...the judges should be held accountable by proving they have the knowledge to accurately judge that food.

 

[rob g]

Ignore that there are a multitude of judges that are judging our food with no knowledge of the rules, and judging on their own criteria vs criteria set by KCBS.

The KCBS rules have nothing to do with the judging scores given unless a team is being DQ'd for some reason. I have yet to see any criteria set by the KCBS for judging. The course I was given was very vague as to what standards to judge against. It was very much left to the individual.

It appears to me the TOD may be giving the more realistic scores. If everybody is getting 8's & 9's then it doesn't leave any room for the truly excellent entries to shine and move above their peers.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

The KCBS rules have nothing to do with the judging scores given unless a team is being DQ'd for some reason. I have yet to see any criteria set by the KCBS for judging. The course I was given was very vague as to what standards to judge against. It was very much left to the individual.

It appears to me the TOD may be giving the more realistic scores. If everybody is getting 8's & 9's then it doesn't leave any room for the truly excellent entries to shine and move above their peers.

Go up to a table of judges, have them each tell you the official rules for chicken. See who gets it 100%

 

[rob g]

Per the KCBS rules Version 12.12.2013 there are no real rules for chicken. It explains that chicken, pork and brisket can be chopped, sliced diced or pulled. While it may be generally understood that chicken should be judged as it comes in (skin or no skin) there is nothing defining that.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

Per the KCBS rules Version 12.12.2013 there are no real rules for chicken. It explains that chicken, pork and brisket can be chopped, sliced diced or pulled. While it may be generally understood that chicken should be judged as it comes in (skin or no skin) there is nothing defining that.

You sure about that?

How bout (directly from the judges manual)

If you do not eat chicken skin, at least taste it, if presented that way, and then discreetly discard. Continue to judge the chicken.

Smoked meat, including chicken may be pink, and not be raw. Chicken is done if the juices run clear. Under cooked chicken will not pull apart easily. If you suspect chicken is raw, place your napkin/paper towel against the meat. If it comes away pink, it is not fully cooked. You are not required to sample. Quietly bring to the attention of the Table Captain.


For KCBS, this is defined as Chicken or Cornish Hen. It can be prepared for a contest whole, half or any combination of the chicken or Cornish Hen as the cook chooses.