KCBS non member fees

[Yakfishingfool]

Vinny, I agree, this is the infantcy in possible creating an us them mentality in BBQ. Lot;s of thinking has to go on and looking at all angles. Want to see what happens when this occurs...look in the field of nursing. Everyone has their own little corner. Want to see success? Look at medicine. They control all aspects from top down. It's out there, let's learn from mistakes. Scott

 

[tony76248]

Some very healthy debating going on here.

I have a few questions. What does KCBS do with the money it collects at this time? What do they do with excess funds at the end of the year? Is the KCBS a non-profit organization?

 

[scottyd]

Join the KCBS the paper is a good read, and support BBQ. After all it is the future of our hobby, sport or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Wizards of 'Que]

I belong to three sanctioning bodies (KCBS,IBCA,MBN). I belong because I like to feel that I have some little voice in what goes on. In other words, once in awhile they let me vote on something and I have offical B*tching rights. Sanctioning bobies want members dues, and they are willing to put up with us for that reason. Their core business is sanctioning contest, and they don't need members to do that. The question is how do you get more people to pay dues. IBCA uses a carrot approach by offering addition prize money if you are a member. Appearently, KCBS is leaning toward the stick approach with an entry fee pentalty for non-members. To me the postive approach is much better for the organizations image.

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

Some very healthy debating going on here.

I have a few questions. What does KCBS do with the money it collects at this time? What do they do with excess funds at the end of the year? Is the KCBS a non-profit organization?

Yes, they claim to be non-profit. Look at there website.

And then my next question is... Since they are NON-profit, and they sell the ads to the paper (not free), website (not free), sell products (mark up profit), etc., and everyone is suppose to be volunteering, where does all of that money go? ? ? ? ? ? And don't forget what they charge the organizers for representing them? ? ? ?

Yes, I agree. Interesting reading and debating going on here.

So, if we have to end up (possibly) being members of a national society, regional society, state society, will each society recognize each others membership? ? ? ? ? Most likely not. It is beginning to look like it is getting to be more and more greed ($$$) than the sport of bbq.

Just my opinion for what it is worth. $0.01 worth. And yes, I am a member of KCBS, and looking at MABA, and NCBS (North Carolina Barbecue Society). So yes, I can voice my opinion.

 

[timzcardz]

Yes, they claim to be non-profit. Look at there website.

And then my next question is... Since they are NON-profit, and they sell the ads to the paper (not free), website (not free), sell products (mark up profit), etc., and everyone is suppose to be volunteering, where does all of that money go? ? ? ? ? ?

If you are really interested, you can look up their Fiscal Year 2004 tax return at guidestar.org

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/431/488/2004-431488552-01a884bb-9.pdf

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

If you are really interested, you can look up their Fiscal Year 2004 tax return at guidestar.org

http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2004/431/488/2004-431488552-01a884bb-9.pdf

Thanks. I saved me a copy to look at a little closer.... From a quick glance, there is a ton of money from advertisements. I take it that is the ones they "sold" either in the BullSheet or website..... will look some more later. Also strange that only the 04 return is listed. Maybe some restrictions for a few years for release from the IRS or something....

 

[Sawdustguy]

Thanks. I saved me a copy to look at a little closer.... From a quick glance, there is a ton of money from advertisements. I take it that is the ones they "sold" either in the BullSheet or website..... will look some more later. Also strange that only the 04 return is listed. Maybe some restrictions for a few years for release from the IRS or something....

I think that if all this stuff bothers you so much you should have run for one of the BOD spots.

 

[DawgPhan]

From just a quick glance it looked like KCBS pulled in $300k last year and ended the year with about $30k in excess, which brought their current holdings to a little over $100k. I can fault them for holding back a little. It seems like they are spending what they earn. seems fairly non-profit-y to me. atleast it doesnt look like anyone is getting rich doing it.

 

[jbrink01]

Non KCBS members are sharing in benefits that come at a cost to the contst and organization. I think non members should pay a premium, say $25?

 

[timzcardz]

Non KCBS members are sharing in benefits that come at a cost to the contst and organization. I think non members should pay a premium, say $25?

What exactly is the perceived benefit derived by non-members?

Unless I am missing something, certifcation of contests and judges appears to be a money maker for KCBS that members and non-members alike are contributing to and receiving the same contest benfits.

From KCBS' 2004 Return for competition related items

BBQ Comp fees income: $83,299
Direct Expenses BBQ Competitions: $42,924
------------------------------------------
Net: $40,375


Certifed BBQ Classes income: $39,273
Direct Expenses BBQ Judging Classes: $26,125
---------------------------------------------
Net: $13,148


So it could be argued that competitions, the organizers, and yes even non-member competitors have been subsidizing other actvites of KCBS.





From another perspective, total revenues were $342,261

BBQ Comp fees income: $83,299
Certifed BBQ Classes income: $39,273
------------------------------------------
Total from competition related items: $122,572 (35% of total)

Total from dues $76,539 (22%)

Competitions were (in 2004) the biggest piece of the pie (even if you excluded the income from judging classes). Therefor each percent point growth in competitions has a greater postiive affect on KCBS' bottom line than each pecent growth in other areas.

KCBS would be wise to tread carefully while tinkering with their largest source of income, and potential growth.

 

[DawgPhan]

ding ding ding...looks like we have a winner...

and it looks like all the kcbs members are really the ones not pulling their own weight. the non-members have to step in and help pay for all of those member benefits.

j/k

but it is a different way of looking at it...

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

One thing to remember. All non-members pay the same amount to compete as members for a given competition, which goes to the organizer which goes to KCBS.

So being a member paying $35 a yr is the only cost being paid by us members above a non-member. We have a voice at KCBS that they don't. I say, if they want to compete without being a member, they would not be eligible for GC or RG at any competition. That would put a damper on their winnings and more incentive to join and pay the $35 a year. Would you compete as a non-member knowing that you would not be eligible for GC or RG ? ? ? Most likely not....

 

[jminion]

The IRS has rules for 501c not for profit corps. The only paid positions are office staff and excutive director. Reps recieve travel expences and $150 for doing the contests, nobody is getting rich off this.

As a Board member I was never reimbursed for travel to KC for any meetings I attended and only hotel rooms 2 or 3 times.

I have my doubts to the legality of requiring non-members having to pay additional fees or requiring membership to compete. The question was asked of the laywers representing KCBS and they said it was legal but they are not tax laywers and I still have my reservations.

KCBS receives tax breaks from the people of the US and I do know of groups that are 501c 3 that had these kinds of rules on who has to pay what, when they had an audit from the IRS requiring additional payments from non members or requiring membership was ruled in violation of IRS rules.

If the questions were easy we would not be having this conversation.

 

[River City Smokehouse]

I think the pill would have swallowed by wording it as a discount to members instead of a extra fee to nonmembers. At least one would think so.

 

[Jorge]

KCBS receives tax breaks from the people of the US and I do know of groups that are 501c 3 that had these kinds of rules on who has to pay what, when they had an audit from the IRS requiring additional payments from non members or requiring membership was ruled in violation of IRS rules.

If the questions were easy we would not be having this conversation.

Jim, has anyone asked the IRS?

 

[Ford]

KCBS 501c4

They did file as a 501c4 a couple of years ago as they were not a 501c3 as originally filed. It's now a not for profit organization. It's really like a club more than anything else. So long as at the end of the year they more or less break even it's fine but they can't make money year after year. Profit is a bad word for a 501c4.

 

[BanditBBQ]

Paying Member

I am a KCBS member in good standing, am a contest organizer, and work hard to promote other contests in the region through the Illinois BBQ Society. I think the idea of a member discount is a good one (should have been presented that way), but cannont see where the 'benefits' that have been discussed come from for non-members. Contests pay a healthy fee to KCBS for sanctioning.

As an organizer, I paid nearly $1,000 to KCBS last year for just one contest's sanctioning ($350 initial sanctioning fee, then $12/team for the teams that showed up)...that did not include the Rep's travel fees. The percepetion of our sponsors was that $1,000 got us judging plates and the KCBS name attached to our contest.

I will be okay with offering KCBS members a discount, as long as the extra money raised from non-members stays with my contest to help offset the crazy expense of producing the contest. If KCBS decides down the road to collect that money too...I think I'll have to look elsewhere for support/recognition...perhaps a regional society/group/association who still work to promote and educate for the sake of bbq...not money.

With respect to regional associations/societies/groups...I would certainly hope that KCBS does not get into the business of mandating the fee structure of contests that are recognized by other groups such as NEBS, Iowa BBQ, or Illinois BBQ Society. I feel that these groups should be allowed to extend the same discount to their members who might not otherwise belong to KCBS. Some, if not all, of these regional groups pay membership fees to KCBS and should be allowed to extend limited 'benefits' of KCBS membership to their members...IMHO.

Carpe 'Que,
Jim

 

[jminion]

Jim, has anyone asked the IRS?

Hell no!!! And I'm not sure that bad legal advice will protect us.

My personel feelings are that KCBS has no right to mandate fee structure (entry fees) to organizers. We can state if a organizer does not payout advertized awards that is a problem and KCBS would not sanction in the future. KCBS does not own the contests we provide a service.

 

[Scottie]

no... That is why you do not have counsel that specializes in traffic tickets trying to represent an association... ;-) We have a whole group of attorneys that specialize in Association Law. Sometimes it's worth paying more up front. As paying it in the end can get very expensive..

** I have no idea who is representing the KCBS, just trying to make a funny.. But my guess is they didn't hire counsel that speicalizes in Association Law.

Scottie