KCBS -- how do you think box layouts will change?

[Gene01]

sliced pork/medallions

Once upon a time, such inviolable staples as parsley boxes, pillow chicken and pork medallions weren't used -- unimaginable, isn't it?

I've heard comments more than once about the "eerie similarity" of top entries now -- no doubt in part because of high-level classes. But when the eerie similarity reaches the point of cookie-cutter uniformity, in what direction will we turn to make our entries stand out? How many ways can you make a rib look appetizing? Where are the boundaries of "marking"?

So what do you think the "next trend" might be? -- and the first one to say "cupcake" or "muffin" gets smacked! :twisted:

Actually talking about the pork medallions, back around the year 1999 2000 and 2001 it was very common to see sliced Pork, I think it was kind of the dumbing down of bbq when everyone started putting pulled Pork and only pulled pork into their boxes... it was simple, required no spectacular cooking skills as you could overcook and it was no big deal, when turning in slices, it needs to be tender but not too tender or it wil not slice or fall apart, undercooked and it will slice well but not be tender and you wouldscore way down..... I for one am glad to see slices back in the box, it shows off the cooking skills.

 

[FatBoyz]

i'm doing good with my breasts... but i do tend to lose my mind during turn in...

 

[Big Ugly's BBQ]

Sorry bout that Chris. I work too clean.

I don't blame anyone, 'cept that POS judge! No worries.....

 

[Falcon 83]

Good evening. I'm a judge looking for enlightenment during this off season. I just read all three pages of the posts on speculations as to how the boxes will change in the future. Since I have only cooked once with a team I only understood about 50% of your comments.

I'll use the turn in box at the top of page 2, post #16, for my questions and comments.

First, it definitely looks good enough to eat and I wish I could reach into my computer screen and chew on one or two of the pieces as I type. However, by today's judging standards, I couldn't give it 9 for appearance, thereby knocking down the 180 score.

The pieces on the lower left and left center are noticable bigger than the other four; hence minus one point. The pieces on the lower right and right center are definitely darker than the other four; hence minus 1 point. My appearance score would be a 7.

Now, let's forget today's standards and set a scenario from the comments in these posts that I think I understand about new policies you would like to see adopted.

First, we'll get rid of the garnish.

Second, we'll leave the 6 pieces of chicken as they are because you want the meat to look natural and not uniform rubber pieces.

Third, five other sample boxes looking just about like this one come to my table in a comp. Since the cooking teams seem to be all making tender and tasty chicken, the taste and tenderness scores will all be nines.

The scores can now only be separated by the appearance score but you keep removing areas where I can deduct points. We don't compare one box to another, but for the sake of this argument, all boxes are comparable and thus deserve 9s. Now the judge's score sheets really don't matter as there are six 180s at my table alone. The computer is needed to break the ties.

Would you as a cooking team, like to score a 180 and finish sixth in this scenario because of bad luck in the computer draw.

As a judge, I hope I am flexible enough to adapt to future changes in the sample box, but the cooking teams need to be realistic as to the changes they want made. Garnish is a hot topic but it is one area that judges could use for point separation.

I hope I have explained this well enough for you to understand my point.

 

[Jorge]

Good evening. I'm a judge looking for enlightenment during this off season. I just read all three pages of the posts on speculations as to how the boxes will change in the future. Since I have only cooked once with a team I only understood about 50% of your comments.

I'll use the turn in box at the top of page 2, post #16, for my questions and comments.

First, it definitely looks good enough to eat and I wish I could reach into my computer screen and chew on one or two of the pieces as I type. However, by today's judging standards, I couldn't give it 9 for appearance, thereby knocking down the 180 score.

The pieces on the lower left and left center are noticable bigger than the other four; hence minus one point. The pieces on the lower right and right center are definitely darker than the other four; hence minus 1 point. My appearance score would be a 7.

Now, let's forget today's standards and set a scenario from the comments in these posts that I think I understand about new policies you would like to see adopted.

First, we'll get rid of the garnish.

Second, we'll leave the 6 pieces of chicken as they are because you want the meat to look natural and not uniform rubber pieces.

Third, five other sample boxes looking just about like this one come to my table in a comp. Since the cooking teams seem to be all making tender and tasty chicken, the taste and tenderness scores will all be nines.

The scores can now only be separated by the appearance score but you keep removing areas where I can deduct points. We don't compare one box to another, but for the sake of this argument, all boxes are comparable and thus deserve 9s. Now the judge's score sheets really don't matter as there are six 180s at my table alone. The computer is needed to break the ties.

Would you as a cooking team, like to score a 180 and finish sixth in this scenario because of bad luck in the computer draw.

As a judge, I hope I am flexible enough to adapt to future changes in the sample box, but the cooking teams need to be realistic as to the changes they want made. Garnish is a hot topic but it is one area that judges could use for point separation.

I hope I have explained this well enough for you to understand my point.

I hope you understand that I'm concerned that I think it's possible that you are saying that you are judging the garnish, or that others could interpret it that way.

 

[SaucyWench]

Falcon, I'm curious, when judging, do you start with the assumption that every entry will be a 9 and score down from there, as in your example? I ask because that was how we were taught in 2001, but in the intervening years, the instructions changed. At one point, we were to start at 6 as average and go up or down from there, and now there isn't a real "starting point." How were you taught in your class?

As far as marking down because the 6 pieces aren't the same size, I disagree. While many (most?) judges seem to like the pillow puff thighs, I think they look manufactured. Even though that is my personal opinion, I don't give lower appearance scores to perfect pillows if they look appetizing, just as I don't give lower scores to entries with chicken thighs that look like, well, appetizing chicken thighs.

As far as garnish goes, one of the best looking chicken boxes I've ever seen was this year, no garnish, just awesome looking meat in a plain white box. Did the other judges feel the same way? No way to know, but I would certainly hope so.

 

[Falcon 83]

I figured I might create some "discussion" with my post. If I can't eat BBQ, I may as well talk about it and try to learn something for the next season.

First, I can't judge the garnish under KCBS rules and I don't. I do have to say that I have never seen a sample box without garnish that equals one with a good garnish display, adding that in my 34 comps I have only seen 4-5 samples without garnish. Here in the East where I judge, a garnish bed seems to be the norm. Garnish is "too hot" a subject to keep talking about it, but I will end by saying that I wish KCBS would commit one way or the other; garnish required or garnish not allowed.

Just remembered, I saw samples of the proposed "green boxes" at a comp. We may want to make garnish required to hide the box; very unappetizing and very unflattering to the enclosed samples. This is my opinion as it was just a display.

I was certified in 2006, using the ''start at 6" formula. Then on the circuit I met older judges from the "start at 9" formula era and now there seems to be no formula. I guess as I gained experience, including some influence from older judges, and I developed the hope that in every comp all the samples I receive will be a 9, I start at 9 and subtract points. If this violates good judging or KCBS rules, I will have to change.

I do look for uniform size, shape and coloring in a sample box. To me, it adds to a nice appearance but I don't care if the chicken pieces are wings, thighs, legs or breast meat. If there is a variety of pieces in the sample box, then uniform size and shape are deleted from my scoring. The same is said for sliced or pulled pork, sliced or chopped brisket.

I hope I addressed all the concerns about my original post.

 

[BigJimsBBQ]

I was certified in 2006, using the ''start at 6" formula. Then on the circuit I met older judges from the "start at 9" formula era and now there seems to be no formula. I guess as I gained experience, including some influence from older judges, and I developed the hope that in every comp all the samples I receive will be a 9, I start at 9 and subtract points. If this violates good judging or KCBS rules, I will have to change.

Falcon - First Thank You for taking your Judgeing serious ... Every Team Thanks You. Next, I believe that if you start out with the attitude of I am going to see, taste, smell and touch the most perfect BBQ (9) on every box, it is a much fairer process IMHO.

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

I think the FBA box is the best way No garnish at all.

I did my first FBA this past Oct... I love the no garnish, and the hour between turn ins. I had to make myself, STOP, and wait before getting my next box ready to go. We had ample time to clean up between turn ins, and be well ready for the next without rushing. There was plenty of time to really relax, and think abt what was going on and what was next without worrying abt being late or missing something. I plan on doing more this coming year.

First, I can't judge the garnish under KCBS rules and I don't. I do have to say that I have never seen a sample box without garnish that equals one with a good garnish display, adding that in my 34 comps I have only seen 4-5 samples without garnish. Here in the East where I judge, a garnish bed seems to be the norm. Garnish is "too hot" a subject to keep talking about it, but I will end by saying that I wish KCBS would commit one way or the other; garnish required or garnish not allowed.

Just remembered, I saw samples of the proposed "green boxes" at a comp. We may want to make garnish required to hide the box; very unappetizing and very unflattering to the enclosed samples. This is my opinion as it was just a display.

Falcon, thanks for your input.. very good reading. You need to take the time to go to a FBA comp and take a good look at the boxes without garnish. I am highly considering not doing garnish in my KCBS boxes from now on. They are so easy to do without garnish, and still look very good.

If I can get 9's and 8's without garnish, why use it?

 

[Falcon 83]

Okay, Okay. All of you advocates of no garnish entries are starting to interest me but I have to admit its going to take some strong evidence. This will be my learning subject this off season. Try to convince me (and other garnish advocates who may be reading these posts) so I'm prepared in case KCBS opts for the no garnish rule. However, if I learn to appreciate it and KBS goes the other way of garnish required, I will be a trifle upset.

Is FBA Florida BBQ Assoc.?

These are my first questions that come to mind.

Do you put more meat in the box since there is additional space where the garnish used to be?

I would think the garnish keeps the samples from sliding. Is this a problem with no garnish?

Garnish usually hides sauce on the bottom of the container (not referring to enough to be called pooled sauce). Since I can't judge garnish or sauce slopped on the inside of the lid, should I subtract points for sauce running around on the bottom of the container?

I await your powers of persuasion whenever you have time this winter. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

Yes, FBA is Florida Barbeque Association.

The main difference is in a FBA event, you have to put a minimum of 8 pieces in the box, no garnish, and an hour between turn ins.

By putting a minimum of 8 pieces in the box, of course the box if fuller, but 8 is a minimum. The hardest one I had was ribs. And that was because the ribs were baby backs, and they had quite a curve to them and would not lay in there good.

The rep told me they do not want to see any white in the bottom of the box... so shoot for that... then he asked if I wanted to see some picutes of turn in boxes. After seeing them, it was all clear as to how to fill the boxes. I have only one pic of a turn in box that I did, as when I got ready to turn it the others, all I was thinking of was getting them there... I know, no pics didn't happen.

As far as I know, none of the pieces slid after "filling" the box. There was enough to hold them against the sides...

As long as the sauce was not pooled, and running, it didn't really matter as the best I could tell. It is understood that a little under the meat, which did not show if fill properly, as it would not show. With a little more practice, and I think this will be the way I am going every time from now on. Besides, it is a meat contest, right?

You might check out www.fbabbq.org and snoop around some. Even some of the comp sites as they may show some boxes, but not sure. I will see if I can find that one pic that I did do so you can get an idea.

Unless Rub will be kind enough to show us a few.... HINT

Bill

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

Falcon,

Here ya go. If you go to the last page of this comp series, you will see my chicken box. It isn't the greatest, as all of the breast meat didn't get done quite in time. My intentions were to chop the breast and make a layer in the bottom, to hide the white, and then lay the thighs on top. I am sure my presentation scores would have been a lot better. That was what pulled my chicken scores down, the presentation. I had to take chunks and place in the void areas of the thighs to "hide" the bottom of the box, kinda tacky looking, but I had to do what I could to try....

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...ure&friendID=259076266&albumId=1650967&page=1

I wish I had gotten a pic of my 2nd place brisket... that was a pretty box. I cut the flat and started with the smallest in one corner, and then the longest went in the widest area of the box, and by pure luck, they got smaller again and filled the box beautifully.... Here is my brisket presentation scores, now remember, they score in half points from 1 to 10.... and a perfect score is 200 instead of 180 with KCBS.

so my scores (for brisket) on presentation are: 9.5, 9.5, 9.5, 9.5, 8.5, 9.0 and that is with no garnish whatsoever.....

So, it can be done, and I have heard of some KCBS turn ins with no garnish doing very well...

Hope this helps a little.

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

Falcon,

Here is some reading for you....

http://www.flbbq.org/fba_rules.htm

this might help clear up some of the info... it sure did for me. What was not clear until I saw the turn in box pics was how to fill a box... like I said, after seeing them, it wasn't that hard to see how it was done... I kick myself over and over for not getting any more turn in pics, but all I had on my mind at the time was getting the gloves off, the box closed, and turned in.... so, I kick myself one more time.... it's hard to remember everything....

 

[Falcon 83]

Hello smoke-n-my-i's,

Thanks for my first info. I scanned the rules for FBA and liked the firing of no-show judges after three no shows.

To our original subject and KCBS rules; I looked at your chicken turn-in box. I don't think KCBS has any rule about covering the bottom of the box. The "extra" pieces between your thighs to cover the bottom of the box under the FBA rules would just add or detract to the appearance score for the box under KCBS. This would also include the chopped breast meat you originally planned for the bottom of the box.

Here is a kicker I just remembered and that maybe the cooking teams aren't aware of it. This ruling should be researched completely for all the details and definite clarification. According to a Rep at one of my contests this past year, your "filler" meat and breast meat bed are subject to judging and scoring; just as bark and burnt ends are. The same would apply to a bed of pulled pork under pork slices or chopped brisket under brisket slices. (side note: a team put a bed of pulled pork under their ribs and got DQed.) Can anyone clarify this or should I call KCBS?

If this is a correct rule, the cooking teams would have to devote as much time and effort to their "filler" or "bed" meat as they do on their intended turn-in samples. Does parsley look any better?

The situation which led to my discussion with the Rep was that I commented that I wished the brisket slices had tasted as good as the burnt ends. He advised me I could just score the burnt ends or just the slices or give an average score for both.

Do all teams use some kind of filler meat or a bed of meat for their samples?

Do teams just put in their 6-8 sample pieces? If so, do they score as well as the samples that have the extra meats for appearance?

I'm getting information overload so I'll close.

 

[The_Kapn]

I personally think the KCBS Crutch (greens) is firmly established and will not go away in the foreseeable future.

I do see more emphasis on manufactured presentations (ie muffin pan chicken) to try for an edge in presentation.
At least until the Judges change their scoring of that type of entry and start rewarding well presented entries that look really natural, yummy, and inviting. :lol:

Things evolve, but I really do not know where the turn-ins are headed.

TIM

 

[smoke-n-my-i's]

To our original subject and KCBS rules; I looked at your chicken turn-in box. I don't think KCBS has any rule about covering the bottom of the box. The "extra" pieces between your thighs to cover the bottom of the box under the FBA rules would just add or detract to the appearance score for the box under KCBS. This would also include the chopped breast meat you originally planned for the bottom of the box.

The only thing FBA rep told me is that they do not want to see any white box under the turn in meat. It doesn't say anything in the rules, but as a rep, I "heard" what he was telling me... as a judges stand point. So, that is the reason for the "bed" of chopped breast meat under the thighs... chicken on chicken.

Here is a kicker I just remembered and that maybe the cooking teams aren't aware of it. This ruling should be researched completely for all the details and definite clarification. According to a Rep at one of my contests this past year, your "filler" meat and breast meat bed are subject to judging and scoring; just as bark and burnt ends are. The same would apply to a bed of pulled pork under pork slices or chopped brisket under brisket slices. (side note: a team put a bed of pulled pork under their ribs and got DQed.) Can anyone clarify this or should I call KCBS?

See above statement. And yes, I can see being D'd for pulled pork under ribs for a rib turn in...

If this is a correct rule, the cooking teams would have to devote as much time and effort to their "filler" or "bed" meat as they do on their intended turn-in samples. Does parsley look any better?

Just how long do you intend to chop some breast meat for a bed... maybe only a couple of minutes vs 20-30 minutes to make a parley bed.

The situation which led to my discussion with the Rep was that I commented that I wished the brisket slices had tasted as good as the burnt ends. He advised me I could just score the burnt ends or just the slices or give an average score for both.

My brisket that I used for the box in the FBA comp was actually a small (just over 4lb) flat. It was the best looking flat I had ever seen with an actual nice layer of fat. I bought it only to "play" with, and when the packer I was cooking turned out the way it did and I just tossed it, the flat was what was left... and it was superb... and got me 2nd place. It sliced perfect to lay in the box and fill it in it's entirety. All that was in the box was sliced brisket... yummy.....

Do all teams use some kind of filler meat or a bed of meat for their samples?

samples? do you mean turn in boxes? If so, no. Like I said, all I put in my brisket box was sliced brisket, and all that was in the pork box was pulled pork. All that is in the rib box is ribs... that was the tough one for me to "fill" as I was using baby backs, and they had a curve to them and would not lay flat.... and it is hard to make the box look covered without overlapping them a lot, and, well, it was just tough. Try it some time.... nothing to make a bed with, and hard to fill all them "empty" areas. It can be done, as some of the pics that was shown to us... just need more practice.

Do teams just put in their 6-8 sample pieces? If so, do they score as well as the samples that have the extra meats for appearance?

For KCBS, there is a minimum of 6 pieces, FBA a minimum of 8. That is just a minimum. More can be better.

I'm getting information overload so I'll close.

No way.... just read more, and ask more questions.

 

[Falcon 83]

"Go play in traffic!" In our house this is a term of endearment used by my wife when I am underfoot while she is trying to cook or get ready for us to leave the house. Today I pushed my luck trying to sample everything she is preparing for our Christmas dinner. Since my son and daughter-in-law aren't due to arrive for another hour, I'm "playing in traffic" at the computer.

First, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and hope that Santa brought you everything on your wish list, especially BBQ equipment, which I hope will help you provide me with excellent BBQ to judge in future comps.

Second, I have been enjoying the exchange of information for the past week under this topic, but I just realized how much I have been talking. Is this bad manners and does it violate the intended purpose of these sites?

Figuring its the holiday and not too many people are on the site, I have time to chat some more before being told to keep quiet.

I was hoping more judges would add their two cents to the discussion and ask questions or supply comments on some of this topic. One area especially I would like to see comments is on saucing chicken and ribs. Comments from different areas lead me to believe that cooking teams would like to use less sauce, possibly none, and use more rub, but they continue to use the sauce as judges prefer it. Here in the East where I judge, I do hear some judges wish the teams would use less sauce, or at least overly sweet sauces. I prefer a sauce slightly sweet but would not object to tasting more samples with just rubs. Part of the premise of these comps is to judge it as it is presented, not as a judge wants it presented.

I have never been known as the strong silent type so if there are no objections, I guess I can continue alone if no other judges jump in.

Smoke-In-My-Is, I'm finally getting around to your last post to me. I did mean turn-in boxes and sometimes I can get info overload with two facts.

From the sound of your brisket description, I have seen this several times that I can remember; the smaller slices in the opposite corners increasing in size towards the middle. To me this is a nice presentation, and depending on the size of the middle slices there could be room to put in some burnt ends. Unfortunately, I have heard a judge comment after the scoring was completed that he didn't like this presentation because he didn't get one of the bigger slices. To inject a small bit of humor, this could be good or bad depending on the quality of the brisket involved.

To add to my comment about about the burnt ends tasting better than the slices and the discussion with the Rep, since then, I have been giving an average score for the two. Do you cooking teams think this is a fair way to score your brisket turn-in? To me, this would compare to the scoring in the pulled pork catagory when both pulled pork and sliced pork are included in the box.

As to the number of pieces in the box, please put in as many pieces (above the required 6) as a nice presentation will allow; Reps, table captains and other volunteers who can go to the grazing table will appreciate it. I know as a sometime table captain, I would like to DQ a team for only putting 6 samples in the box, especially when it looks good enough to want to eat all six pieces.

I'll close for now, my banishment time is apparently over.

 

[Lake Dogs]

I'm a MIM/MBN CBJ. Garnish is prohibited. While the boxes do not and can not look
as nice as garnished boxes, that's exactly the point. Whether you want to judge
the garnish or not, you do. There's color and texture there, framing the meat. It
is humanly impossible to not take that into account. Therefore, I'm of the opinion
that FBA and MBN have it correct; no garnish.

Whether green, white, red, striped boxes, I have no opinion. As long as all
competitors are using the same boxes it's all good.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Alexa RnQ]

I do hear some judges wish the teams would use less sauce, or at least overly sweet sauces. I prefer a sauce slightly sweet but would not object to tasting more samples with just rubs. Part of the premise of these comps is to judge it as it is presented, not as a judge wants it presented.

This is an interesting discussion in and of itself. Teams keep putting in what gets rewarded by the judges. Judges reward what's in front of them that's good. The dilemma for a team is when to upset that applecart and submit a product that's off the curve? I can't point to a single contest we do and say, "Oh, let's just wing it -- let's do something nuts." And given the nature of the beast, even if we do and are rewarded, we might try it again in a different venue and get stomped. :lol: So I don't know whether the answer is for teams to be brave and be different, or for judges to cut back on rewarding meatcandy, or both!

To add to my comment about about the burnt ends tasting better than the slices and the discussion with the Rep, since then, I have been giving an average score for the two. Do you cooking teams think this is a fair way to score your brisket turn-in?

Absolutely. We've long been indoctrinated that if you put it in a box, it's meant to be sampled -- and unless it's as good or better than your primary product, it shouldn't go in. I think showing different forms of the product shows versatility of the cook. It's kind of like when we attend IBCA contests, where a half-chicken is required -- you have to know how to cook all parts of the chicken to perfection at the same time. It displays a more extended skillset than just one form of the meat. It also takes on the risk of whether each of those product forms is really as good as you think it is!

 

[Falcon 83]

Good morning.

Lake Dogs, I agree with you; the brain cannot tell the eyes not to look at the garnish. That's why I made the comment I wish KCBS would rule for one or the other. I think this in itself, would eliminate a major controversy but it would stir up a hornet's nest of discussion by whichever side's prefence is eliminated, at least for half a season until everyone adjusts.

DivaHerself, your comment, "if its in the box, its meant to be sampled," will make me comfortable judging every part of the meat sample submitted in the upcoming season.

As to your other comment about "meatcandy," I think its going to have to be both. With today's economy, the cooking teams really don't want to risk losing any chance of some prize money to help defray their costs, or losing points under the bragging rights column. I'm guessing here, that it depends on the cooking team which is more important of the two.

For us judges, its going to take some major education for us to realize we should save "what we want" for a restaurant when we go out to eat. Unforunately, I don't know how to begin this education for other judges, but I will say, these past days of discussion has me rethinking some of my judging ideas.

Thank you to those who have entered into this discussion.