KCBS CBJ Class

[Pappy Q]

After 5 years of competing in KCBS contests, I decided to fianlly take the CBJ class yesterday. I now have a better understanding of why the system is as flawed as it is. It all begins with the class and the class is seriously flawed. From the quality of the instruction, to the material covered, to the answers given to simple questions. The whole thing was contradictory from it was said it is supposed to be to what it was said it is in the real world. How someone could leave the class and have any clue as to how to be a fair and professiomal judge is beyond me.

It also helped to solidify my feelings of what KCBS is and will continue to be. Any change to the status quo will come very slowly and with much resistance. My final conclusion is that the judging system is what it is. It hasn't and probably won't evolve as fast as the growth competition BBQ has experienced in recent years. It could be better with some of the suggestions made in other threads but those are all just band aids until the core of the system is changed and I truly believe the past and current leadership of KCBS along with majority of KCBS members have no interest in making significant changes. I applaud those working for change and encourage you to focus on the core as chipping away at the outer levels will be temporary fixes.

Just my opinions for what they're worth.

 

[ModelMaker]

Well it's quite obvious you went to the class with a chip on your shoulder and left with it fully intact...
I took my class in 2006 and have helped with other classes 4 or 5 times now and can state with certainty that the class has been improved in both presentation and quality. With todays use of the powerpoint presentation and scripted delivery the class is the same in Georgia as it is in California. All potential judges are receiving the same information so the playing field is as level as possible at the start.

The entire process is called "KCBS judge cetification" NOT "KCBS turns out a perfectly finished judges after 4hr class". The true and only outcome of the class is to present KCBS rules and procedures to a group of people interested in becoming part of the competition family. Some do it to be with freinds in the community, some to enjoy the taste of world class BBQ. Whtever the reason the class is just a starting point.
The class will never turn out experienced, all perfect, same scoring, educated palet, there for the right reason judges. Just won't happen.
All those newly certified judges have to learn how to judge their own way, the class only gives them the tools to get started.
When you started your first job at 16 your boss gave you the rules of what was expected of you and you either became an OK employee or a great one, it was up to you to through experience to just "be there" or to "excell".

No the judging pool is not 100% perfect and KCBS is constantly trying to improve the teaching and quality of it's judges, but if your expecting fully experienced judges coming out the door after a class, it's just not possible.
Ed

 

[Scottie]

When different instructors give the class, it is a different class.

I agagree Tom. Useless. Let's face it. It is a way for KCBS to generate money. Nothing more or less.

 

[5string]

Well said Ed. I learn more each time I judge at a competition. I've met judges who i respect and some who might be better with more training. We all got the same information when we started, it's up to us to refine our skills by practice. I judged in 6 different states this year from NC to CA. The only difference I saw in judging was the way judges were seated at tables.
A positive attitude is of great value when entering into any new adventure.

 

[Pappy Q]

Modelmaker, as I stated those were my opinons just as you have yours. To immediately say I went in with a chip on my shoulder and left with it intact is pretty harsh. You're assuming I'm unable to be open minded so should I assume the same about you from your comments?

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

Well said Ed. I learn more each time I judge at a competition. I've met judges who i respect and some who might be better with more training. We all got the same information when we started, it's up to us to refine our skills by practice. I judged in 6 different states this year from NC to CA. The only difference I saw in judging was the way judges were seated at tables.
A positive attitude is of great value when entering into any new adventure.

It seems to me that the cooks pay out around $800/ contest for entries fees, meat, supplies,etc. If there is 40 teams, that is 32,000 dollars per contest.

How many contests did you say it takes to train judges to get a "refined skill"?

 

[5string]

It seems to me that the cooks pay out around $800/ contest for entries fees, meat, supplies,etc. If there is 40 teams, that is 32,000 dollars per contest.

How many contests did you say it takes to train judges to get a "refined skill"?

Never said how many it takes to be skilled, refined or otherwise. How many contests does it take for a cook to "get it right"? People learn at different rates. I have the utmost respect for competition cooks who try week after week to refine their skills. I try always to keep that in mind when I score an entry. But as Ed said, nobody starts out as a master at any endeavor. Hell, I've met Master Judges who I thought didn't have a clue.
My hope is that KCBS will put to use the data they gather on each judges scores in comparison to the rest of their table to determine the "fair" vs "inept" ones as rumored by more than a few reps that I have spoken with.

 

[Pappy Q]

Here are two examples of what was taught by the KCBS provided instructor:
- a score of 9 means you'd drive 50 miles to eat it, an 8 means you'd drive 25 miles to eat it, a 7 means 15 miles and so on down the scale.
- if you give a score of 6 you need to have 3 reasons why it wasn't a 9.
Even though the scorecard has definitions of each number, this is what was said. You can form your own opinion as to whether or not that is a proper way to train someone to be a judge.

Also to clarify, my opinons are not about Judges themselves as I know most are fine people. My opinions are of the KCBS system in training, certification and accountability of the process.

 

[Scottie]

Every contest that a judge is refining their judging, is more money wasted for cooks that get a judge who is refining. Oh sure, experience matters, but you never want to hear that a judge is refining their skills. Yes, cooks have to refine and practice. But that is us spending our own nickle. When we are cooking for a contest, I don't want to hear that a judge is there for 'practice'. Which is also why I don't feel new/inexperienced judges should be turned loose at contests. Practice and refine on your own dime, not mine.

 

[KCKamado]

Standards ...

- a score of 9 means you'd drive 50 miles to eat it, an 8 means you'd drive 25 miles to eat it, a 7 means 15 miles and so on down the scale.

I'm a relatively new judge (6 contests done) and am sorry your experience at class was different from mine. I took the class as the first step in learning how to be a good judge ... it would be interesting to know YOUR purpose for doing the same.

FWIW, the above "standard" WAS used in my class, but ONLY as to judging appearance ... the idea being that the appearance score is a measure of (and only of) how visually appealing that particular box is to me. The analogy worked for me ... I'm sorry it didn't work for you ... I would be personally interested in knowing how YOU would better describe the quantification necessary to judge that specific attribute.

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

I'm a relatively new judge (6 contests done) and am sorry your experience at class was different from mine. I took the class as the first step in learning how to be a good judge ... it would be interesting to know YOUR purpose for doing the same.

FWIW, the above "standard" WAS used in my class, but ONLY as to judging appearance ... the idea being that the appearance score is a measure of (and only of) how visually appealing that particular box is to me. The analogy worked for me ... I'm sorry it didn't work for you ... I would be personally interested in knowing how YOU would better describe the quantification necessary to judge that specific attribute.

For appearance.... if you want to reach out and grab a piece at that moment(9), if you want a piece but can wait until it's on your plate(eight), if you would share with a spouse(7), if it's nice and you would share with your friends(6)

Hows that for some guidance, wasn't hard and it would be easy to teach at the class.

 

[KCKamado]

Standards, Part 2

For appearance.... if you want to reach out and grab a piece at that moment(9), if you want a piece but can wait until it's on your plate(eight), if you would share with a spouse(7), if it's nice and you would share with your friends(6)

Hows that for some guidance, wasn't hard and it would be easy to teach at the class.

That is great ... but how is it different from "- a score of 9 means you'd drive 50 miles to eat it, an 8 means you'd drive 25 miles to eat it, a 7 means 15 miles and so on down the scale."?

Whether by driving distance or by how soon one wants to eat it or by the folks one is willing to share it with, the question, purpose, and result remain the same ... Quantifying how appealing a box of food looks, and teaching others how to do the same.

 

[Burnt at Both Endz]

That is great ... but how is it different from "- a score of 9 means you'd drive 50 miles to eat it, an 8 means you'd drive 25 miles to eat it, a 7 means 15 miles and so on down the scale."?

Whether by driving distance or by how soon one wants to eat it or by the folks one is willing to share it with, the question, purpose, and result remain the same ... Quantifying how appealing a box of food looks, and teaching others how to do the same.

Honestly...is there a difference between driving 25 miles and 15 miles?

I will drive an extra 100 miles to a comp the same weekend, just because some judges or reps were poor a year before at another location....

 

[KCKamado]

Standards, Final Thoughts from The Defeated

Honestly...is there a difference between driving 25 miles and 15 miles?

I will drive an extra 100 miles to a comp the same weekend, just because some judges or reps were poor a year before at another location....

OK ... You win, I lose ... You're right, I'm wrong ... You reign victorious and I withdraw, craven and defeated, from The Field.

Congratulations on your well deserved, deftly earned conquest!

 

[Pappy Q]

I'm a relatively new judge (6 contests done) and am sorry your experience at class was different from mine. I took the class as the first step in learning how to be a good judge ... it would be interesting to know YOUR purpose for doing the same.

FWIW, the above "standard" WAS used in my class, but ONLY as to judging appearance ... the idea being that the appearance score is a measure of (and only of) how visually appealing that particular box is to me. The analogy worked for me ... I'm sorry it didn't work for you ... I would be personally interested in knowing how YOU would better describe the quantification necessary to judge that specific attribute.

My purpose for taking the class was to learn more about the process and to be able to judge some contest each year. Next you ask how I "would better describe the quantification necessary to judge that specific attribute", that's one of the reasons I took the class was to how learn to do it but personally there is no BBQ that would make me drive 50 miles by it's appearance alone. I would suggest that the wording on the scorecard by each number be defined by KCBS to provide a more consistent quantification. Leaving it up to each individual person to set their own definition of the judging standard is a useless standard.

 

[Jousting Pigs]

What is the best way to get new judges trained without using them at comps? I took the CBJ class to help me learn what judges are looking for. Between the class and the few competitions I've judged I learned there are a lot of judges that score based on they like not necessarily based on the CBJ guidlines.

 

[82's BBQ]

What is the best way to get new judges trained without using them at comps?

Why not have a requirement that new judges have to attend 5 competitions and sit as an extra at a table. They would be allowed to judge unofficially and then have their scores reviewed by the reps. After 5 events then they can judge on an official basis. Now they have some "practice" and get a better idea at the variety of appearance/taste/tenderness before they determine a team's chance at leaving happy or not.

 

[thirdeye]

Why not have a requirement that new judges have to attend 5 competitions and sit as an extra at a table. They would be allowed to judge unofficially and then have their scores reviewed by the reps. After 5 events then they can judge on an official basis. Now they have some "practice" and get a better idea at the variety of appearance/taste/tenderness before they determine a team's chance at leaving happy or not.

In order to pull this off the un-official judges would have to sign-up just like the certified judges, and the reps would have to instruct the cooks on the minimum number of pieces or servings to include at that particular competition, right? Or would it just be better to bump up the number of items/portions for each turn-in from 6... to 8 or 9 and limit the number of un-official judges to 2 or 3 per table?

 

[82's BBQ]

I guess an announcement at the cook's meeting informing the teams that there will be "judges in training" at this event and if possible please add an extra portion. Other than chicken, I don't see any category really being much of an issue. It seems somewhat common to have more than 6 portions get put into a box already.

Just a thought though.

 

[thirdeye]

If possible?

EDIT - I guess if the un-official judge still got credit for being in attendance that would be okay, but it would defeat the purpose.