Kant touch that!!!

[ModelMaker]

Reading over the last months KCBS BOD quick notes I see they want to ban the use of our fingers to help develop a score for each entry.
The Rules Committee recommends only using "mouth feel" and "tongue to the roof of your mouth as the only" gauge of tenderness. No laying a slice of brisket over your finger to help decide a score, no pushing your finger into a piece of pork to see if it mushes into nothingness.

Brazier began the meeting by sharing with the committee some items that had been brought to the Board from the Rules Committee.
One item was that a statement that needs to be added to the judge training program and to the script for the judge’s meetings at contests regarding help in defining tenderness. The statement would read something like this: “The bite and mouthfeel are the primary governing factors when determining tenderness of an entry. There should be some firmness to the meat without being tough or chewy. The meat should not be mushy or dry.”
Through discussion by the committee it was determined that should a rep see a judge using any method other than bites and/or the pull test for brisket, they should inform that judge that what they are doing is not a method taught in training and should not be used. Many judges are pinching, pressing, draping over the finger, etc. samples of meat and these are not, presently being taught by instructors.

Also since every KCBS member has a smart phone they will no longer provide you with a new membership card each year. A digital thingie is what you'll get unless you want to pony up for a lifetime membership, then you will get a card.

Oh, and good luck navigating the new website.

I sent my opinion of the new rule clarification to both the Rules Committee and the BOD. If you find it ridicules to not use your sense of touch to reach a proper score you might want to do the same.

Ed

 

[Rusty Kettle]

How are you taught in a judges class to score tenderness?

I have not taken a judge class so I honestly thought it was mouth feel. Never crossed my mind beyond a pull test for brisket.

As far as draping a slice of brisket goes I was not aware that was used outside of the backyard. I am not saying that it shouldn't be. I am just asking what methods are used for each meat? What methods do you use? Thanks for the information.

 

[Jousting Pigs]

Sounds like they are going to encourage judges to judge based on the KCBS criteria and how they were taught in the class, not some made up method. If you don't want to judge based on the criteria in the rules and the methods taught in the class you don't have to judge.

 

[airedale]

Sounds like they are going to encourage judges to judge based on the KCBS criteria and how they were taught in the class, not some made up method. If you don't want to judge based on the criteria in the rules and the methods taught in the class you don't have to judge.

Will the judge schools then be week-long sessions so that all possible situations can be reduced to detailed procedures? Would a week be enough? Would a 100 page rule and procedure book be enough?

Oh, and speaking of KCBS criteria: One of the the things we are taught in the classes is that each entry is to be judged individually, not relative to others. "KCBS does not compare one entry against another. Each entry is judged on its own merits." Then we are given a scoring system where a 6 is "average," a 5 is "below average" and a 7 is "above average." Earth to KCBS: The concept of "average" implies that entries are being compared.

Judging is ultimately subjective. To think otherwise is self-delusion.

 

[ModelMaker]

Sounds like they are going to encourage judges to judge based on the KCBS criteria and how they were taught in the class, not some made up method. If you don't want to judge based on the criteria in the rules and the methods taught in the class you don't have to judge.

If you would prefer me to develop a tenderness score by pushing a piece of partially chewed pork up against the roof of my mouth, I can certainly do that.
However I guarantee I can much more clearly judge tenderness by poking a leftover slice on my plate with my finger where I can also see how it responds.
There are many judges using every sense available to give the cook teams a honest and complete chance at a fair score. That's why we're there, period.
My suggestion to the Rules Committee and the BOD was to investigate and confirm these techniques and if deemed a plus to the cooks, teach them to the CBJ class and add them for your benefit.


Remember using ones hands is part of the judges oath taken at every contest.

"presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate"

Ed

 

[Joe Black]

A pull test is a good start. Followed by a bite and chew test. That’s what SCBA taught me and I think it’s a pretty good method.

 

[ynotfehc]

Judging something in terms of average does not mean you are judging your 6 entries against each other. It means average In terms of bbq as a whole, not these 6 entries. I judged diving for 2 years, because I somehow became a diving coach overnight. No 2 divers ever had the same 6 or 11 dive list or in the same order, but we still had to score on a numbered system 1-10 and each dive was judged based on it's own execution. If you cant seperate entries from each other, perhaps you should choose another hobby.

As cooks we often use feel to test for tenderness and when meat is done, dont see why it's an issue that some will make it a part of their evaluation process when judging. I think there are other ways to help improve the judging process.

 

[airedale]

... average In terms of bbq as a whole, not these 6 entries. ...

Really? The judge manual is silent on this.

Does "as a whole" include all of the roadside restaurants with baked, greasy meat falling off the bone and drowned in cheap red sauce? No? Exactly what does this "whole" include?

Actually, it is a stupid criterion if the "average" is broader than either the entries a judge sees at a specific comp or all the comp bbq entries he has tasted in his judging career. No judge can have tasted everything in any broader set of samples and hence cannot know what "average" is for that set.

 

[Jousting Pigs]

Will the judge schools then be week-long sessions so that all possible situations can be reduced to detailed procedures? Would a week be enough? Would a 100 page rule and procedure book be enough?

Oh, and speaking of KCBS criteria: One of the the things we are taught in the classes is that each entry is to be judged individually, not relative to others. "KCBS does not compare one entry against another. Each entry is judged on its own merits." Then we are given a scoring system where a 6 is "average," a 5 is "below average" and a 7 is "above average." Earth to KCBS: The concept of "average" implies that entries are being compared.

Judging is ultimately subjective. To think otherwise is self-delusion.

Yes, I agree, judging is subjective but it should still be judged within the rules and guidelines KCBS has set, not arbitrary tests individual judges decide to use.

 

[Jousting Pigs]

If you would prefer me to develop a tenderness score by pushing a piece of partially chewed pork up against the roof of my mouth, I can certainly do that.
However I guarantee I can much more clearly judge tenderness by poking a leftover slice on my plate with my finger where I can also see how it responds.
There are many judges using every sense available to give the cook teams a honest and complete chance at a fair score. That's why we're there, period.
My suggestion to the Rules Committee and the BOD was to investigate and confirm these techniques and if deemed a plus to the cooks, teach them to the CBJ class and add them for your benefit.


Remember using ones hands is part of the judges oath taken at every contest.

"presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate"

Ed

Do you value the feel of a poke more than how the meat feels in your mouth? If so, why? I can't imagine poking at a piece meat will give you a better guide for how well it was cooked than actually chewing it.

All I'm saying is judge based on the criteria and rules set forth by KCBS. If you think there are tests/criteria that allow you to judge better, ask KCBS to consider adding them to the judging class. Do not decide on your own to apply arbitrary standards/tests that are not included in the judging class.

 

[Nordy]

How a piece of meat chews or "mouth feel" is really the only way to test tenderness. The pull test is even dumb... Who cares how it pulls apart... how does it chew... that's what tenderness is.

Nordy

 

[Blanton]

Seems only logical that that the tenderness determination would come from actually eating it. Don't see how it is wrong to actually try to reign in all of the "internet" definitions.

 

[airedale]

All I'm saying is judge based on the criteria and rules set forth by KCBS. ... Do not decide on your own to apply arbitrary standards/tests that are not included in the judging class.

Have you actually been through a judging class? I think not. Here is 100% of what is in the class manual regarding tenderness:

[re pork] " ... Pork shoulder or Boston butt should be very tender with a definite texture to the meat. It is easily overcooked to get it tender, and the judge should make certain in his or her mind that it is not mushy. Mushy meat dissolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing it. A sliced piece of this meat should pull apart with very little effort, be moist; and when eaten, and have a good texture. ..."

[re brisket] " ... A good way to determine tenderness is to pick up the piece of brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. ..." " ... One possible test of tenderness is the pull test. To test the brisket tenderness using this method, pick up the brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. The meat should break apart with little effort yet maintain a good texture. A well cooked brisket, when the slice is picked up and pulled should have some resistance and yet come apart without crumbling. ... "

[general scoring] " ... Samples should have a good texture by being moist and yet not mushy. Ask yourself the following; Is it moist, dry, tender, tough, mushy? Score the sample accordingly. ..."
​

Please note that no specific tests are required. Zero. None. Also note that it is difficult to "pull apart" a slice of pork without using one's hands. Basically judges are free to use whatever methods they choose in scoring the samples they are given. To the extent that methods are mentioned at all, they are mentioned briefly and only as options or suggestions.

 

[Blanton]

[re brisket] " ... A good way to determine tenderness is to pick up the piece of brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. ..." " ... One possible test of tenderness is the pull test. To test the brisket tenderness using this method, pick up the brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. The meat should break apart with little effort yet maintain a good texture. A well cooked brisket, when the slice is picked up and pulled should have some resistance and yet come apart without crumbling. ... "

This is what needs to be retaught! Brisket criteria seems to be all over the place I feel

 

[airedale]

This is what needs to be retaught! Brisket criteria seems to be all over the place I feel

I dunno. In the upper Midwest I see judges using this test all the time.

But nothing is bulletproof. In "Franklin Barbecue" Aaron Franklin cautions us:

" ... if you go to a not-so-great barbecue joint you might find yourself getting a plate of paper-thin slices. It's a time-honored wily technique for trying to hide brisket that's way too tough. Likewise, if you get really thick slices, the place might be hiding that the brisket was overcooked and so overly tender that it lacks any structural integrity ... "
​

So ... even with the pull test (which IMO is a fine test) we are still back to subjectivity.

 

[Rusty Kettle]

Have you actually been through a judging class? I think not. Here is 100% of what is in the class manual regarding tenderness:

[re pork] " ... Pork shoulder or Boston butt should be very tender with a definite texture to the meat. It is easily overcooked to get it tender, and the judge should make certain in his or her mind that it is not mushy. Mushy meat dissolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing it. A sliced piece of this meat should pull apart with very little effort, be moist; and when eaten, and have a good texture. ..."

[re brisket] " ... A good way to determine tenderness is to pick up the piece of brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. ..." " ... One possible test of tenderness is the pull test. To test the brisket tenderness using this method, pick up the brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. The meat should break apart with little effort yet maintain a good texture. A well cooked brisket, when the slice is picked up and pulled should have some resistance and yet come apart without crumbling. ... "

[general scoring] " ... Samples should have a good texture by being moist and yet not mushy. Ask yourself the following; Is it moist, dry, tender, tough, mushy? Score the sample accordingly. ..."
​

Please note that no specific tests are required. Zero. None. Also note that it is difficult to "pull apart" a slice of pork without using one's hands. Basically judges are free to use whatever methods they choose in scoring the samples they are given. To the extent that methods are mentioned at all, they are mentioned briefly and only as options or suggestions.

Ok thank you for posting that. So what tests or methods do you apply to determine a score? Thanks for taking the time to reply it helps to see what a judge actually does to determine a score.

 

[airedale]

Ok thank you for posting that. So what tests or methods do you apply to determine a score? Thanks for taking the time to reply it helps to see what a judge actually does to determine a score.

Oh, man. All I can say for myself is that it is subjective.

Appearance: Does it look so good that I want to eat it right away?" This criterion was taught in my judging class and I think it is a good one. One real world result of this for me is that seeing some fat on brisket slices is a plus. Fat=Flavor.

Flavor: I tend to be attracted to flavors that exhibit a little creativity, but not hot (IOW capsaicin). A tiny amount of heat can be good. For me, more is undesirable. I have learned that a successful comp cook's objective is not to hit a home run with one or two judges; rather it is to avoid offending any of the six judges. (This is entirely understandable IMO, but regrettable. It keeps flavors similar and ensures that I do not see a lot of creativity. I understand.)

Over-saucing loses points. In my judging class, the point was made that "it is a meat competition." When I see rib-like shapes that look like shiny red candy, both appearance and taste scores suffer.

Tenderness: Already beaten almost to death here. A nice clean bite on each rib. A good pull test on brisket slices. Pork that is not mushy. Chicken that I can bite easily and not pull more than I want off the sample. I am not sure I have ever had mushy chicken, but that certainly is not desirable.

The other thing I do is to look at my personal scores vs the table average. I can get those on the KCBS web site very quickly after a comp. If I am an outlier, I try to think about why that might be. The main effect is probably to adjust my future numbers to be more consistent with other numbers. If my numbers overall tend to be low, maybe I just need to adjust my measuring stick because I am being harder on the entrants than the average judge. To an extent, this is a move towards objectivity IMO.

Really, IMO the best thing for cooks is to go to a judge school and to judge a couple of comps. In addition to learning about the realities of judging, you will have the opportunity to look at a lot of competitive 'cue. In the long run this has to help your scores --- much more than reading rants on bbq-brethren IMO.

I don't know if this helps or not.

 

[Jousting Pigs]

Have you actually been through a judging class? I think not. Here is 100% of what is in the class manual regarding tenderness:

[re pork] " ... Pork shoulder or Boston butt should be very tender with a definite texture to the meat. It is easily overcooked to get it tender, and the judge should make certain in his or her mind that it is not mushy. Mushy meat dissolves in your mouth with very little effort when chewing it. A sliced piece of this meat should pull apart with very little effort, be moist; and when eaten, and have a good texture. ..."

[re brisket] " ... A good way to determine tenderness is to pick up the piece of brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. ..." " ... One possible test of tenderness is the pull test. To test the brisket tenderness using this method, pick up the brisket and see how easily it will pull apart. The meat should break apart with little effort yet maintain a good texture. A well cooked brisket, when the slice is picked up and pulled should have some resistance and yet come apart without crumbling. ... "

[general scoring] " ... Samples should have a good texture by being moist and yet not mushy. Ask yourself the following; Is it moist, dry, tender, tough, mushy? Score the sample accordingly. ..."
​

Please note that no specific tests are required. Zero. None. Also note that it is difficult to "pull apart" a slice of pork without using one's hands. Basically judges are free to use whatever methods they choose in scoring the samples they are given. To the extent that methods are mentioned at all, they are mentioned briefly and only as options or suggestions.

It has been a while, but I have taken the judging class! It was crazy easy, all you have to do is have a pulse and be the right age.

Per the OP the board is going to standardize the process for evaluating tenderness. I think this is a good thing as it allows cooks to know what each judge will be doing to evaluate our entries. There will still be subjectivity with judging but allow the cooks to know exactly how they are being judged. If every judge is able to come up with their own process and tests for evaluation there will be inconsistency due to process variance.

I still do not think poking at a piece of brisket or pork will give you a better feel for how well it was cooked than taking a bite and chewing it.

 

[ModelMaker]

I never intended to replace KCBS "suggestions" on judging criteria but simply offered in addition to some other currently used alternative methods to arrive at a best score for you cook teams. If methods offered are tested and prove worthy then why not include them in judging?
Are you saying that when you as a cook drop a grand on a weekly competition you don't use your sense of sight and feel when determining what best to put in your box? I doubt it.

When judging pork, I take a healthy bite and chew and check for mouth feel but at the same time I press the sample with my finger and see how it reacts. It's very easy to tell what is just right as well as turned to mush.
My complaint was just throwing out a valuable scoring technique, why not add to it?
Your chances at a proper score is all that will benefit.
Ed

 

[Untraceable]

I have zero problem with judges using pull and press techniques to factor in their scores. As a cook, I rarely eat anymore than is necessary to adjust seasoning levels and use the input I receive from my knife while slicing, hands from handling the meat and my god, here is a rabbit hole... sight from the reactions.

I just sure hope that an inexperienced judge doesn’t base tenderness solely on one test, but the overall experience

I get more info from the knife than anything when slicing.