Is the KCBS BOD schizophrenic?

[Skinny Cook]

Just for clairification, did you judge down because it was tough or did you judge down because it was a different color or from a different slab?

I judged down due to it's toughness. My Choc Lab would have turned down that rib.

 

[Skinny Cook]

Let it be said that personally I am against this action by the bod. IF implemented it will most likely be the end of me as a KCBS judge, Organizer, and competing team.

 

[Jorge]

Perhaps KCBS could using the tracking software to gather data for contest year and then analyze that to see if they are able to gather usable data and determine what, if any trends are present before moving forward.

My day job has me writing computer code, and some of it has involved some fairly advanced statistical analysis. Advanced enough that I had some regular conference calls with folks at MIT and Stanford. I'd be VERY surprised of some interesting trends didn't emerge.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Buster Dog BBQ]

Perhaps KCBS could using the tracking software to gather data for contest year and then analyze that to see if they are able to gather usable data and determine what, if any trends are present before moving forward.

My day job has me writing computer code, and some of it has involved some fairly advanced statistical analysis. Advanced enough that I had some regular conference calls with folks at MIT and Stanford. I'd be VERY surprised of some interesting trends didn't emerge.

Interesting discussion.

I think you hit the nail on the head. As expensive as it may be, you enter your judge number, category and the three scores for taste, tenderness and appearance. I am sure there are some judges out there that score the same no matter what.

I also understand that you can go from a 9 to a 5 in a box if a piece of meat is dry. But on appearance? We have seen a 3 point difference where only one judge gave a 6. They all looked at the same box. But if there is a big difference, like more than 3 points, that is where a mandatory comment card should come in play.

Someone mentioned not much variance in scores. I would guess with the popularity of BBQ comp classes this may hold true at some contest in certain regions. With all the Pellet Envy, ISS, Myron Mixon classes and others, the flavor profiles continue to drift to the same rubs, sauces, etc.

 

[Jorge]

I think you hit the nail on the head. As expensive as it may be, you enter your judge number, category and the three scores for taste, tenderness and appearance. I am sure there are some judges out there that score the same no matter what.

I also understand that you can go from a 9 to a 5 in a box if a piece of meat is dry. But on appearance? We have seen a 3 point difference where only one judge gave a 6. They all looked at the same box. But if there is a big difference, like more than 3 points, that is where a mandatory comment card should come in play.

Someone mentioned not much variance in scores. I would guess with the popularity of BBQ comp classes this may hold true at some contest in certain regions. With all the Pellet Envy, ISS, Myron Mixon classes and others, the flavor profiles continue to drift to the same rubs, sauces, etc.

I don't know that it would be terribly expensive unless some serious analysis was desired. KCBS has a RFP out now, unless I'm mistaken, for new software.

 

[butt head]

And that happens a lot more than you know. If a judge gets a really bad rib compared to the others, why are they out of the norm? They are talked to if they are out of the same realm of the other judges, but if they have a legitamate reason, so there lies a true score. We are not out there to sway judges opinions, just making sure they understand our procedures.

how can they do that if you keep trying to change the procedures

 

[tmcmaster]

This strikes me as a bit luny. Do they want HONEST scores, or, like the NFL, do they want more high scores? Can't be both.

 

[LGHT]

If there is a scoring problem, it is in the training of the new judges because there are more than 70 CBJ's that came out of my class that have not yet seen, felt or tasted a 7, 8 or 9. Further, from the comments above, some judges have their own "sub criteria" for scoring that are not represented in the KCBS rules.

I'm pretty sure I was at the same training class and I can say that was problem #1. Due to the HUGE amount of people who took the class it just seemed like a CBJ factory that was more concerned with getting as many people in and out and certified instead of really training them to be the best possible judge they can be. I can say the Q was pretty off, but if you have never cooked or tasted comp Q then it was pretty good. I mean even as bad as it was it was just as good as most restaurants so of course it still got 6-7's and 8's as a result. I don't think the judges the score, the rules are the problem at all. I think if you tak e a good hard look at the certification process and limit the amount of people per class and truely focus on "training" new judges correctly all the future problems will be eliminated. However if you just give them a quick 2 hour process and teach them how to fill out the paper then of course judges will be off as they are actually learning how to judge DURING a real competition.

 

[Lake Dogs]

I'm pretty sure I was at the same training class and I can say that was problem #1. Due to the HUGE amount of people who took the class it just seemed like a CBJ factory that was more concerned with getting as many people in and out and certified instead of really training them to be the best possible judge they can be. I can say the Q was pretty off, but if you have never cooked or tasted comp Q then it was pretty good. I mean even as bad as it was it was just as good as most restaurants so of course it still got 6-7's and 8's as a result. I don't think the judges the score, the rules are the problem at all. I think if you tak e a good hard look at the certification process and limit the amount of people per class and truely focus on "training" new judges correctly all the future problems will be eliminated. However if you just give them a quick 2 hour process and teach them how to fill out the paper then of course judges will be off as they are actually learning how to judge DURING a real competition.

You've hit the core of the problem (where we've been discussing the
result of the problem). Contrast that to other sanctioning bodies who
have all day training, tests, and then once a judge passes they dont
become a CBJ until they've successfully judged two sanctioned contests.
I do think KCBS is a bit of a victim of their own success/growth, but that
doesnt make the problem any smaller or excuse it.

 

[drbbq]

The problem I see with computerized judge tracking (which by the way, failed this week due to programing issues) is, how do we prove that a judge has been asked why a score, be it low or high in comparison with others at the table, is not within the norm? If a rep says it's a valid reason, will that override the tracking program? Since computers cannot know our reasons for scoring as we do, I fully expect to get a talking to next year, because I will not give a 6, 7 or 8 to something that deserves a 5 or less.

I think it's really screwed up to have a system of 2-9, but question anyone who dares use the full scale.

 

[Podge]

I tell y'all what I'd like to do, is cook for a small CBJ class. (less than 20 perhaps).. I'd do my damndest to produce what I would for a contest, and see how the new judges would take to it. It'd be really interesting !

 

[LindaM]

I'm pretty sure I was at the same training class and I can say that was problem #1. Due to the HUGE amount of people who took the class it just seemed like a CBJ factory that was more concerned with getting as many people in and out and certified instead of really training them to be the best possible judge they can be. I can say the Q was pretty off, but if you have never cooked or tasted comp Q then it was pretty good. I mean even as bad as it was it was just as good as most restaurants so of course it still got 6-7's and 8's as a result. I don't think the judges the score, the rules are the problem at all. I think if you tak e a good hard look at the certification process and limit the amount of people per class and truely focus on "training" new judges correctly all the future problems will be eliminated. However if you just give them a quick 2 hour process and teach them how to fill out the paper then of course judges will be off as they are actually learning how to judge DURING a real competition.

Which proves my point that if a class is taught on a Friday night and those judges judge on Sat at a competition the scores are higher than the norm because those judges NEVER had competition BBQ which is by far better than any BBQ you can get in a restaurant. EVEN MINE....

 

[drbbq]

The CBJ program is about 15 years old and about 50,000 prospects have taken the class. Not one of them has failed.
How real can this be? It's a fun program and promotes BBQ and KCBS, but if everyone passes what value does it really have?

it

I'm pretty sure I was at the same training class and I can say that was problem #1. Due to the HUGE amount of people who took the class it just seemed like a CBJ factory that was more concerned with getting as many people in and out and certified instead of really training them to be the best possible judge they can be. I can say the Q was pretty off, but if you have never cooked or tasted comp Q then it was pretty good. I mean even as bad as it was it was just as good as most restaurants so of course it still got 6-7's and 8's as a result. I don't think the judges the score, the rules are the problem at all. I think if you tak e a good hard look at the certification process and limit the amount of people per class and truely focus on "training" new judges correctly all the future problems will be eliminated. However if you just give them a quick 2 hour process and teach them how to fill out the paper then of course judges will be off as they are actually learning how to judge DURING a real competition.

 

[yelonutz]

The CBJ program is about 15 years old and about 50,000 prospects have taken the class. Not one of them has failed.
How real can this be? It's a fun program and promotes BBQ and KCBS, but if everyone passes what value does it really have?

it

I learned about greens, Kale, Red Leaf Lettuce, Cilantro...:thumb:

NUTZ

 

[Skinny Cook]

They can just develop a Telefunkin U 49 BBQ tester. Have the Rep pull it onsite, plug it in, then just feed in each sample and the computer can spit out the results. No human error needed. :thumb:

 

[SaucyWench]

The CBJ program is about 15 years old and about 50,000 prospects have taken the class. Not one of them has failed.
How real can this be? It's a fun program and promotes BBQ and KCBS, but if everyone passes what value does it really have?

it

I audited a CBJ class last year, and pretty much nothing had changed from my class 8 years before, except that in 2001 we were instructed to start with the assumption that all entries would be 9s, and score down as need be. That resulted in a boatload of 180s, and changes in how to score, first with the 6 as average and up or down from there, and now the definitions of the numbers. Unfortunately, while there are tips in the CD, there is no definition for the definitions-just what is excellent/average/bad competition bbq anyway? We get tips in the judges CD, but it is still up to us to decide what those words mean and score accordingly, even writing a 3 or 4 if it is deserved, no matter if the rest of the table is filled with judges who state openly that they will never give a score lower than a 7. (Thankfully, I've never had a 2-inedible.)

I don't see how suspending a judge until he can be "re-educated" in a class that no one fails is going to help this situation.

 

[Scottie]

I tell y'all what I'd like to do, is cook for a small CBJ class. (less than 20 perhaps).. I'd do my damndest to produce what I would for a contest, and see how the new judges would take to it. It'd be really interesting !

I'd do it with you. But can I cook chicken? I sure don't get any feedback from the current crop of CBJ's of what sucks with it now....

 

[INmitch]

I've come to accept the difference in each judges opinion & taste. I understand that on chicken no 2 pieces are the same ( even if I spend 3 hrs trying to get them identical). I put 8 ribs in the box 4 from 2 racks (that are not going to be identical). A pork box full of chunks from 2 butts & different parts of the butt. I can see a 2-3 point fluxuation in tast & tenderness. BUT.........when I turn in my 7-8 slices of brisket and see scores from 5 to 9's I have a problem with that cause I know they are almost identical.:boxing: Just my 2C

 

[Slamdunkpro]

I'd do it with you. But can I cook chicken? I sure don't get any feedback from the current crop of CBJ's of what sucks with it now....

Heh, I cooked for one of Linda Mullane's CBJ classes and didn't hit my timing very well so the chicken was late going in. We were literally dumping chicken breasts on sheet pans, dousing them with whatever rub was at hand and tossing the whole pan full into the cooker which was set somewhere around "inferno". One of the more experienced cooks helping out with the class came out after the chicken went into the class and asked "how did you cook the chicken? That was some of the best chicken I ever had"

Go figure:noidea::noidea::-D

 

[INmitch]

:-D ^^^^^^Roll with it.:-D