IF you had the power over KCBS for 24 hours dicusion / debate thread.

[Shiz-Nit]

Hypothetically,
If you had the power for 24 hours over KCBS, this could include 24 hours straight, (2) 12 hour days, (3) 8 hour days. This power would include calling a meeting with the board members to discuss your top 3 issues that you feel would improve KCBS in some way or other to make a positive impact.

Next once the board members and yourself brainstormed a bit over your top 3 issues or topics. You then would only be allowed to pick 1 issue to really concentrate on and help come up with a solution or make better changes as needed pertaining to your selected 1 issue or topic.

These improvements could be anything… here are some ideas to knock around to get you brainstorming. Cost reductions, promotion ideas, ways to attract new members, scoring, qualifiers to certain events, judging, garnish, turn ins, maybe something to improve the KCBS web site, guidelines, training, comment cards, smoker types.

Please list your top 3 issues and then list your selected topic you would attack to help come up with a better solution and make KCBS better. Also list some ideas pertaining your issue or topic that you would change and maybe why you would change it.

I would really like to keep this clean and really knock around some good ideas. Who knows maybe our voices will be heard .

 

[tduffy]

Judging

 

[SOB]

1. Assign seats for judges on averages
2. Replace garnish with green parchment paper or......
3. Guinea pigs would be a qualifier

 

[Pappy Q]

Hypothetically,
If you had the power for 24 hours over KCBS, this could include 24 hours straight, (2) 12 hour days, (3) 8 hour days. This power would include calling a meeting with the board members to discuss your top 3 issues that you feel would improve KCBS in some way or other to make a positive impact.

Next once the board members and yourself brainstormed a bit over your top 3 issues or topics. You then would only be allowed to pick 1 issue to really concentrate on and help come up with a solution or make better changes as needed pertaining to your selected 1 issue or topic.

These improvements could be anything… here are some ideas to knock around to get you brainstorming. Cost reductions, promotion ideas, ways to attract new members, scoring, qualifiers to certain events, judging, garnish, turn ins, maybe something to improve the KCBS web site, guidelines, training, comment cards, smoker types.

Please list your top 3 issues and then list your selected topic you would attack to help come up with a better solution and make KCBS better. Also list some ideas pertaining your issue or topic that you would change and maybe why you would change it.

I would really like to keep this clean and really knock around some good ideas. Who knows maybe our voices will be heard .

I would Immediately resign.

 

[Skip]

1. The KCBS logo seen as "The good housekeeping seal of approval for BBQ". Allow the sanctioning body to use their seal to promote BBQ using the products from their teams. Teams that participate would be chosen by KCBS rather than teams being allowed to just pay for the privilege. When chosen to receive the seal a nominal fee can be paid to be listed I amsure.

2. The KCBS needs to do more to include those under 18. My two kids have been part of my team since before they can even remember. My daughter has been so influenced she has joined me on a number of occasions including a Bull Burger Battle we won a trip to Las Vegas to compete in the World Food Championship. She wants to go to culinary school as well. But through it all the only thing we have gotten from KCBS on it is grief basically. Not actively disapproving of it but having protocols written that exclude them. I think 14 should be the age for a Head cook and membership to the KCBS. My daughter could enter a field of seasoned competitors and get calls. That being said a number of kids who cook with other teams,or on their own, could on any day beat her while handling the adult teams just as well.

3. A simplification of the rules to exclude all the shoehorned exceptions, additions/removals that change the expectation of the original rule set and unnecessary clarifications of a friendly set of rules. Many seem to want to change the KCBS from a friendly organization of barbecue enthusiast to a cold and callous administrator of contests. The rules are a loose guideline for competitors to self police themselves with. Its not meant to be done with enforcement agents in a manner that rails against the friendly nature. As well if this doesn't suit you find another competitive food circuit that does it like you want. Many KCBS members like knowing its still about the fun of it all. Bad eggs are smelled easily once they crack. Competitors and reps will know when something smells off and it will correct but trying to change what we are so you can feel comfortable isn't what its all about.

 

[didisea]

If KCBS is going to be a global organization, it needs to update its judges oath, board pledge, and mission to be applicable to citizens of the world. I do not think that BBQ "belongs" to any one country, but rather a way of cooking that belongs to the BBQ enthusiast where ever they are in the world.

I live close to the border with Canada, and I wanted to get my CBJ, so a contest outside Vancouver was having a judging class the day before a contest. At the end of the class, when we were taking the Judge's oath, it references "the American way of life." I felt embarrassed that my Canadian friends were asked to recite an oath that included a phrase that was meant for someone in the United States.

If we are going to invite people from different countries to join the KCBS, it needs to correct these oaths to take down political and cultural distinctions and to just be of one mind, and that is to like cooking, eating, and studying techniques and styles of bbq where ever we are on the planet.

Judges Oath-
I do solemnly swear to objectively and subjectively evaluate each Barbeque meat that is presented to my eyes, my nose, my hands and my palate. I accept my duty to be an Official KCBS Certified Judge, so that truth, justice, excellence in Barbeque and the American Way of Life may be strengthened and preserved forever.

Board Pledge -
Recognizing barbecue as America’s cuisine, the mission of the Kansas City Barbecue Society is to celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbecue as a culinary technique, sport and art form.
I accept my duties as a KCBS director to further the KCBS mission so that truth, justice, excellence in barbecue and the American way of life may be strengthened and preserved forever.

 

[masque13]

many of you guys have been involved much longer and have done more contests than me but I feel like I have done enough to be able to say the following;

#1 remove any garnish requirements.....it's meat, it's caveman food, the whole requirement to have garnish placed around it etc... just seems an unnecessary expense and misuse of a team's time prepping it.

#2 although the KCBS events seem to have a ton of rules and everyone is required to strictly follow said rules, it is somewhat concerning when you see how easily you could circumvent many of the rules.....and while I want to believe that would never happen, we all know that when money is involved that there are some people willing to "be very creative" in how they do things. here is what me and partner have talked about....when we first got started we were scared to death of the meat inspection and pre-trimming and doing NOTHING else to the meat prior to the event.....however, after now being at several events we have often wondered whether someone would basically bring some "back up" meat in another cooler or fridge or whatever that has been seasoned, brined or marinated for days leading up to the event and after their initial meat inspection they simply swap it out for the stuff they really want to use?? if you compete often enough you could easily keep a butt, ribs and brisket cold enough and refrigerated enough to use the following week somewhere else.....and when you factor in the all the rules for "keeping" meats warm but yet so many rigs have enclosed kitchens etc.... that overall, it seems like KCBS can really do little about ensuring these extremely important rules are followed, based on what I have seen out in the field. at the end of the day, we all hope that everyone has honorable intentions and will follow the rules on their own, but like I said, once money is involved it is a corrupting influence.....so I would say finding a way to better enforce and ensure equality and adherence to the rules would be one as well.

#3 finding a way to enhance the confidence of competitors that judges are well trained enough to judge fairly and consistently at an event.....when I tell family and friends how the judging system works they sort of cock their head like a confused puppy and really wonder how my ribs or butt or brisket can beat out anyone else's when only six people at one table taste my brisket but yet it's being compared to briskets being eaten by a totally different group of people at several different tables. I dont know how to fix that one but to me and my partner, as much as we love competing, we sort of have to admit that there is a great deal of subjectivity to the process.

 

[Qbert60]

#1 - I agree with the no garnish

#2 - I agree with the seated judges by average score given

#3 - Game changer in my mind. Include the .25 point. example: That brisket wasn't exactly a 9, but not really an 8 either. I think more judges would round down. Empower them to give the entry an 8.5 or 8.75. I think that would decrease the need for #2.

 

[erichasaces]

I'm selfish. I'd just focus on how to get more of the market share in Texas. KCBS competitions are consistently so much better than IBCA that it's a shame we only have a handful for such a big state.

 

[Gowan]

Programs to support the group that has been forced to the back of the bus since KCBS began - contest organizers.

 

[Pappy Q]

many of you guys have been involved much longer and have done more contests than me but I feel like I have done enough to be able to say the following;

#1 remove any garnish requirements.....it's meat, it's caveman food, the whole requirement to have garnish placed around it etc... just seems an unnecessary expense and misuse of a team's time prepping it.

#2 although the KCBS events seem to have a ton of rules and everyone is required to strictly follow said rules, it is somewhat concerning when you see how easily you could circumvent many of the rules.....and while I want to believe that would never happen, we all know that when money is involved that there are some people willing to "be very creative" in how they do things. here is what me and partner have talked about....when we first got started we were scared to death of the meat inspection and pre-trimming and doing NOTHING else to the meat prior to the event.....however, after now being at several events we have often wondered whether someone would basically bring some "back up" meat in another cooler or fridge or whatever that has been seasoned, brined or marinated for days leading up to the event and after their initial meat inspection they simply swap it out for the stuff they really want to use?? if you compete often enough you could easily keep a butt, ribs and brisket cold enough and refrigerated enough to use the following week somewhere else.....and when you factor in the all the rules for "keeping" meats warm but yet so many rigs have enclosed kitchens etc.... that overall, it seems like KCBS can really do little about ensuring these extremely important rules are followed, based on what I have seen out in the field. at the end of the day, we all hope that everyone has honorable intentions and will follow the rules on their own, but like I said, once money is involved it is a corrupting influence.....so I would say finding a way to better enforce and ensure equality and adherence to the rules would be one as well.

#3 finding a way to enhance the confidence of competitors that judges are well trained enough to judge fairly and consistently at an event.....when I tell family and friends how the judging system works they sort of cock their head like a confused puppy and really wonder how my ribs or butt or brisket can beat out anyone else's when only six people at one table taste my brisket but yet it's being compared to briskets being eaten by a totally different group of people at several different tables. I dont know how to fix that one but to me and my partner, as much as we love competing, we sort of have to admit that there is a great deal of subjectivity to the process.

Just an FYI - but garnish is not "required" now. It is "optional" but everyone chooses to use it in fear of being penalized by the judges. Some day (when the wife's not with me) I'm going to go no garnish just to see what happens. I've come very close 2-3 times to doing it but just haven't been able to pull the trigger.

 

[masque13]

Just an FYI - but garnish is not "required" now. It is "optional" but everyone chooses to use it in fear of being penalized by the judges. Some day (when the wife's not with me) I'm going to go no garnish just to see what happens. I've come very close 2-3 times to doing it but just haven't been able to pull the trigger.

oh wow, thanks a bunch Pappy Q, I didn't know that had actually changed!!!!

 

[tduffy]

Just an FYI - but garnish is not "required" now. It is "optional" but everyone chooses to use it in fear of being penalized by the judges. Some day (when the wife's not with me) I'm going to go no garnish just to see what happens. I've come very close 2-3 times to doing it but just haven't been able to pull the trigger.

Exactly. It's already "optional" so why take it away from us competitors who use it when we are scored on appearance. Only way I could ever support a rule that forbid garnish is by removing appearance from scoring also. Ever tried to keep meat in place in a box with no garnish? I've also had rib bones melt the Styrofoam on the bottom of a box at a backyard contest that outlawed the use of garnish. Needless to say I told the organizer I'd never be back.

 

[JD McGee]

* No garnish...make it a meat competition! :thumb:
* All events that meet the numbers will be qualifiers...regardless where the meats come from.

 

[Scottie]

I look at it this way. If you don't like garnish, go cook FBA, PNWBBQ or IBCA. KCBS was the standard and everyone else copied.

My 3 things are:

-judging
-judging
-judging

 

[Right on Q]

I heard Travis Clark on the BBQ central show say he turned in a few boxes in 2015 without garnish because he was crunched on time. Said he scored the same as he did with garnish.

As for KCBS authority for 24 hours

I'd promote and encourage the backyard contests more.

It's difficult starting out and getting your butt handed to you with the pros but it was the only place to start in our area as there weren't any backyard contests.

 

[Bubba]

1. Mandate that the BOD include 3 members of each of the 4 "divisions of KCBS
a) Cooks
b) Judges
c) Reps
d) Contest Organizers
2. Overhaul the Judging process
a) Retrain the judges so all judges are trained the same
b) Allow judges to use tenth point scoring system
c) Change to allow the table captain to score the entries
a) If you have a judge that is out of line with the others high and low it is compared to the table captain score. That way you can fix the problem of a bad judge at the start instead of ruining a teams chances

 

[CBQ]

1) Judging
I have said many times, that the TOD/TOA issues create the impression among cooks that there is a big crap shoot element to contests. We don't get a fair and impartial evaluation of our skills as barbecue cooks. It's an easy fix (seating based on historical averages of judges) but because the board (and KCBS itself) is so loaded with CBJs it will never get a fair evaluation. The focus is on better judge education. That's not a bad thing, but judging is ultimately highly personal. Don't try to "fix" the judges, fix the system.

2) Sanctioning
The KCBS brand is all about contest sanctioning. It's why organizers pay KCBS reps to cook a contest. It's why cooks select KCBS contests to cook. Do it well. It's your brand. KCBS is now sanctioning events they should never sanction. Contests where organizers roll their own rules around fuel choices or people's choice. That's what the competitor series is for. To allow these contests to leak into standard sanctioned events undervalues the brand. Sanctioning forced people's choice contests where the organizer picks the winners based on whether or not they feel you met their fund raising objectives? Really? Are you freakin' kidding me? Protect the brand. If you don't, sanctioning has no value.

3) Stand behind your product
KCBS used to ask organizers to escrow price funds. Now they don't. They used to list prize pools on the web site. Now they don't. For a while, there was talk of not determining whether or not a contest met the criteria of a State Championship. It's a slippery slope. KCBS keeps chipping away at what they offer cooks and organizers, and that's not a good thing. Set a high standard, and enforce it. Don't make the cooks gamble on whether or not the organizer is a crook.

 

[J&B'sBBQ]

I'm right there with Chris ^ on a lot of what he said.

1) Judging
Require continued education for judges, and figure out a way to have more consistent training. Also, using the data collected about the judges and their average scores to level tables at a competition. I think a combination of both of these will help the teams to feel that this is a more "fair" and "consistent" process.

2) Sanctioning/Organizers
KCBS needs to do a better job of training and supporting organizers through this process. Some organizers are amazingly fantastic, and others make me never want to cook their contests again. There needs to be more consistency in this if KCBS is going to allow these organizers to use their name and logo to promote these events. Also, (opening the slippery slope here) I feel there needs to be some guarantee from KCBS on funds. I know this has been highly debated over and over again here in the threads, but for teams who have been skimped on winnings, this is an important factor to consider. If KCBS is going to put their names on these events, then I feel they need to have some skin in the game so to speak.

3) Under 18 involvement
Someone else mentioned this earlier, and I feel this is just as important to grow the world of competitive BBQ as any other factor. There needs to be something for the younger cooks. My daughter is an itty bitty, only 6, but the frequency of Kid's Q and participation, is so infrequent that she doesn't really have a way to be involved as well. Also, once they reach 12, they are not allowed to do Kid's Q and there is nothing for them to do until they are old enough to start their own team.

The one I would pick to focus on the most would be #1. I feel this is the one that KCBS does not want to address, so hopefully we could force it

 

[Rich Parker]

1. Judging - Seat judges based on their average.

2. Sanctioning - The board needs to quit playing favorites and giving contests special exceptions. Example - If you want to allow invitationals to get TOY points adjust the rules so all invitationals can play instead of playing favorites for one or another.

3. Reps - Set rules that all reps follow in determining the amount of judges used for a certain amount of teams. I have seen extra tables used just because organizers have too many judges. The extra tables is not good for the teams.