Cooks as Judges

[chad]

Judges "sucK" and cooks as judges still suck!! It's a different world. I love cooking and judging.

 

[Contracted Cookers]

So how does cooking with a team make a person a better judge?

need to learn how to drive . before you buy a car

 

[mobow]

Do they need to cook with a successful team or a not so successful team?
How many cooks must the team have before they can host a judge?
Do they need to cook with a pellet cooker and a stickburner?
Sleep under the stars or in a RV?
Serious team or party team?
Do all cooks have to host a judge every three years?
Are judges that only give 8's and 9's exempt?

keith

 

[bover]

Do they need to cook with a successful team or a not so successful team?
How many cooks must the team have before they can host a judge?
Do they need to cook with a pellet cooker and a stickburner?
Sleep under the stars or in a RV?
Serious team or party team?
Do all cooks have to host a judge every three years?
Are judges that only give 8's and 9's exempt?

keith

All legitimate questions and in my opinion is the reason why I don't believe cooking with a team should be mandatory (for non-Masters). As soon as you try to enforce something like that, you're just going to complicate things too much. I'm a much bigger fan of instituting a campaign to encourage as many judges as possible to get to know the cooks better and cook with them if they want to understand the whole process better but don't make it a requirement to maintain CBJ status.

There are a lot of judges out there that are of the mindset that speaking to the teams is a big no-no, even on Friday night. The rule prohibiting contact on contest day (which is proper for obvious reasons) is drilled in to the point where I think a lot of judges think they need to abstain completely.

I've sat at many tables where one of us is also a cook, and it's interesting to see the reaction of others when they find that out. It's usually a combination of wonderment and curiosity and they are always full of questions. I think a lot of judges out there want to know more about what teams go through and what the processes are, but just don't think that they can unless they start up their own team. (Just to keep this post somewhat on topic, I think having a cook at the table is a big benefit to the other judges as it gives them easy access to someone that can answer questions about the cooking process if they have them.)

This is definitely something that could be added to the CBJ continuing education program and I'd also like to see CBJ instructors encourage more interaction. Judges and cooks may never be completely on the same page on all subjects, but the more we can promote communication the closer we'll get.

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

What came first…the chicken or the egg?
Without Cooks there is no bbq
Without Judges there is no competition.

It’s a vicious circle that we argue every 3 months.
Many judges can’t cook…but that doesn’t mean they don’t know or appreciate good bbq.
Many cooks are certified judges, and while they know and appreciate good bbq, their objectivity can be clouded by their knowledge.

Both groups are needed to make this engine run.

Should a program be started to let judges cook with teams…I’m all for it
Should it be mandatory? NO
KCBS already has a cooking requirement for master judge…that is enough in my opinion.
http://kcbs.us/pdf/MasterJudgeTeamVerification.pdf

I think if you set up a mandatory requirement you will lose a lot of good people. However, if you set up a voluntary program, where judges are allowed to tag along and cook with a team, you will take a huge step towards reducing this argument to maybe once a year...and giving people knowledge and understanding

That translates into a stronger KCBS:thumb:

 

[Lake Dogs]

need to learn how to drive . before you buy a car

Forgive me, but using this logic we'd all be dead because you'd have to learn to cook before you can eat. TooSauced said it best.

I am both. I'm a better cook because I've judged. I'm a slightly better judge because I've cooked, but frankly I'd like to think I've always been a fair, objective yet critical judge long before I cooked or competed. I dont think you have to know how to cook barbecue or compete at barbecue to be able to critically, objectively, and fairly judge barbecue.

 

[Gadragonfly]

What made it even more concerning is that several of the acting table captains (a few who I know and competed against personally) voiced concerns that their applications for judging were being rejected.

What I am getting at, is that I am wondering if there some way that we could influence the KCBS to add weight to judges who are also competitors? Does anyone else have the same concerns?

Judging applications are returned to the organizer. In some, but not all cases, the organizer is a KCBS member and might know that an applicant is a competitor. There are only one or two judge's applications that I can remember seeing that ask if you compete with a team. Almost all of the applications ask how many contests you have judged. I would imagine the competitor/judge hasn't judged as many contests as those individuals that only judge which may be why they are not selected.

 

[walrus79]

I just became a judge last year and judged two events in preparation for competing. We (Brown Liquor BBQ) competed twice last year and had some nice early success. This is just my background as I offer the following idea:

What about making all new judges do an orientation (for lack of a better word) before they can judge an event. They've got to go around with a master judge or a rep for two hours, one hour the night before the comp and one hour the morning of the comp. The person in charge walks the new judges around and points out as much as they can about the process. From why there's PVC pipe on the table legs to how food is kept safely and dishes are done. Maybe it's pre-arranged and they do personal visits with a team or two, take a tour of their site and ask questions for the head cook. Then they come back the next morning, say around 8:00 and take another hour tour and start to watch as the chaos unfolds. Again, find a reputable team (master judges and/or reps will know who they are) to give a five minute talk about what's going on at that moment (the butts and briskets are about to come off or wrapped, cooker's getting to temp for the chicken, ribs have been cooking for a while, etc...). Don't let these newbies judge that comp, they're just there to get the orientation credit that is mandatory before judging. That way the cooks won't feel at all threatened (not that they probably would) and there's no chance for cheating (again, so not likely). Plus, you find some small way to reward the cooking teams who agree to do the site visits and answer questions (a small gift or gift card and a nice mention at the awards ceremony).

Just an idea. It would be nice to have the judges have to do more than a four hour class (with no test or way of knowing if they were paying attention). Having a hands on experience BEFORE they're even allowed to judge may give them some added perspective and prove that they're interested in being a judge before they get to try the great food. I know that I would have love this experience, not only as a new judge, but as a new judge that was trying to learn and absorb everything I could about competative bbq before taking the plunge to do it myself.

My two pennies.

 

[Contracted Cookers]

Forgive me, but using this logic we'd all be dead because you'd have to learn to cook before you can eat. TooSauced said it best.

I am both. I'm a better cook because I've judged. I'm a slightly better judge because I've cooked, but frankly I'd like to think I've always been a fair, objective yet critical judge long before I cooked or competed. I dont think you have to know how to cook barbecue or compete at barbecue to be able to critically, objectively, and fairly judge barbecue.

I don't want anybody dead!

 

[TooSaucedToPork]

First off I like your Ideas, so don’t get mad if I pick them apart a little :becky:
What about making all new judges do an orientation (for lack of a better word) before they can judge an event. They've got to go around with a master judge or a rep for two hours, one hour the night before the comp and one hour the morning of the comp. The person in charge walks the new judges around and points out as much as they can about the process. From why there's PVC pipe on the table legs to how food is kept safely and dishes are done. Maybe it's pre-arranged and they do personal visits with a team or two, take a tour of their site and ask questions for the head cook. Then they come back the next morning, say around 8:00 and take another hour tour and start to watch as the chaos unfolds. Again, find a reputable team (master judges and/or reps will know who they are) to give a five minute talk about what's going on at that moment (the butts and briskets are about to come off or wrapped, cooker's getting to temp for the chicken, ribs have been cooking for a while, etc...).

This would be great for a volunteer program, but requiring new judges to take this “tour” would keep many from taking the judging class in the first place. Many are there to eat and fairly judge good BBQ. That is the draw for many of the judges…many REALLY do not care where it comes from, ONLY that is produced correctly and to food safety specs. Their passion is tasting the BBQ…Our passion as cooks is cooking it.

And KCBS gets a lot of moolah from people who take the class…then judge once or never again.:icon_blush:


Don't let these newbies judge that comp, they're just there to get the orientation credit that is mandatory before judging. That way the cooks won't feel at all threatened (not that they probably would) and there's no chance for cheating (again, so not likely). Plus, you find some small way to reward the cooking teams who agree to do the site visits and answer questions (a small gift or gift card and a nice mention at the awards ceremony).

You run into problems here, as many contests hold judging classes the night before a comp. If the noobs can’t judge, what is their reason for being there???


I know that I would have love this experience, not only as a new judge, but as a new judge that was trying to learn and absorb everything I could about competative bbq before taking the plunge to do it myself.

And you would be a perfect candidate for a voluntary team visit program

 

[Lake Dogs]

So how does cooking with a team make a person a better judge?

I've debated one direction, so now I'll stir the pot the other.

Mind you, not that this fits for everyone, but I do believe that the old "walk a mile in the other mans shoes" does at the very least provide a perspective that could help some. I know of a few judges personally that have judged for a long time that really could benefit from it. How, you say, because it doesn't change the barbecue in front of you, does it? Perspective will help when debating between 2 scores and knowing to give that benefit of the doubt to the team. Perspective will surely help with comment cards. I've seen many a judge try to gnaw at meat and give the comment "over cooked" when in fact it was under cooked, or "not so much injection" when they probably didnt use any injection. At very least, it cannot hurt.

For new judges, I've pretty much only seen 2 kinds: those who think "all this sucks because it's not how I like it so everything is a 6", or the "I'm just darned glad to be here and everything is an 8 or 9".

 

[Bunny]

Thanks everyone for the input. The class was wonderful, and I the people I met were even better. It just struck me funny regarding the difference between the two different types of students. My point wasn't to try to weight scores, but to pass understanding an appreciation. This class was eye opening for me, as I bet cooking with a team would be eye opening for someone who has only judged.

I love this sport, and only want to make it better. Thanks again for the insight.

Glad for your input on the class. Also glad you enjoyed it!

Bunny

 

[Rich Parker]

I've debated one direction, so now I'll stir the pot the other.

We usually agree more than disagree on topics, but i think you are out in left field on this one. :-D

Perspective will help when debating between 2 scores and knowing to give that benefit of the doubt to the team.

Knowing the cooking process should in no way influence a judges score.

Perspective will surely help with comment cards. I've seen many a judge try to gnaw at meat and give the comment "over cooked" when in fact it was under cooked, or "not so much injection" when they probably didnt use any injection

Nobody especially cooks should be giving comments to teams that they used too much injection. Over cooked is a good comment but you don't need to be on a team to know this. Judges shouldn't try to give teams cooking advice.

A lot of judges are very good cooks in their own right and just don't compete because a variety of reasons.

 

[Rookie'48]

Very interesting thread you have going here. There's a lot of good ideas that I might steal, borrow or adapt in the future, thanx :thumb:.

 

[bover]

Disclaimer...I'm not suggesting this as a solution. Just thought it'd be interesting to y'all.

One of my coworkers has been part of a very successful team for 30+ years. They were one of the teams at the very first American Royal contest in 1980 and have taken home many trophies and ribbons throughout their history. In my opinion, one of their biggest competitive advantages is that they have 12-15 members on their team and they insist that all of them be CBJs. Only 4-5 will actually compete on any given week, and the ones sitting out are encouraged to judge. They rotate folks in and out of cooking and judging constantly, which I believe helps them not only keep up their cooking skills but also keep their fingers on the pulse of what is working and what isn't behind the walls of the judging tent.

Just an interesting tidbit that I thought would be some good food for thought.

 

[Lake Dogs]

We usually agree more than disagree on topics, but i think you are out in left field on this one. :-D



Knowing the cooking process should in no way influence a judges score.



Nobody especially cooks should be giving comments to teams that they used too much injection. Over cooked is a good comment but you don't need to be on a team to know this. Judges shouldn't try to give teams cooking advice.

A lot of judges are very good cooks in their own right and just don't compete because a variety of reasons.

I completely agree; knowing the cooking process nor anything else should never, in any way, influence the judges score. However, you and I know there are MANY times (usually multiple times at every contest) that every judges goes through, thinking to themselves "is this an 8, or a 7, well it's a 7.5 because it's this but not that, no it's an 8, no it's a 7..." where they're supposed to err on the side of the team; giving the benefit of the doubt to the team. I think that perspective helps in this case; JMHO.


And to the comments, boy oh boy if I had a dollar for every wrong comment that I heard that wasn't written. Many very respected (and have earned this) judges really and truly have NO CLUE as to how or what is in the barbecue; clueless beyond belief. In this case cooking and competing would provide knowledge.

And there's the old curmudgeon judge; you know the one (I know more than a few of these); they come in with the "make my day" attitude. They judge a LOT, all over the place, and have done so for many years. It's funny, but one of them that I know of VERY well finally purchased a smoker himself and did a few racks of ribs. He said how good they were but the first time they were undercooked and tough, and the next time they were way over cooked and just fell apart. Cooking for him has now added a new perspective, and I think if nothing else next time he sits at a ribs table he'll REALLY appreciate that perfectly cooked rib and have some understand of how easy it was for the others to be slightly undercooked or slightly overcooked. Should it change his scores; NO. However, in this case, those bottom scores will probably come up a tad. Perhaps he wont blister them so badly just because it wasn't perfect.

Again, JMHO.

If nothing else, I think cooking a long with a team, or better yet actually competing yourself (not along side a team, but actually doing it all by yourself) will help the above-average judge become an even better judge.

 

[walrus79]

Absolutely no offense of your "picking apart" my my ideas. In fact, I think your pretty much spot on. I agree that judges just want to come eat great food. My opinion though is that to earn that right, they should make a bit bigger investment in their overall knowledge of bbq (from "soup to nuts" so to speak).

But your next line about the "moolah" is spot on and why I suspect nothing will ever get resolved in this issue...sadly money drive everything in life these days! As a bbq fan, but new to the competition side, I was surprised when I learned how easy it was to become a certified judge. I would like it be a little bit more involved, thereby giving folks more of an investment in it. But, you're exactly right and that will reduce the number of $50 (I think) classes and $35 memberships KCBS can sell. Don't get me wrong, I fully support OUR national society, just would like to see it even better!

My particular class was not revolved around a comp, so again, I see your point there.

I'd love to have new folks visit our area and come learn about bbq and spread my knowledge. Even in the fray of Saturday morning, I'll engage folks that sheepishly walk by and, you can tell they want to ask something, but are nervous. Sometimes I'll even give them a little taste to see what they think.

Thanks for the feedback! Hopefully something will come down the road to boost and build the requirements and relationships between cooks and judges.

 

[Rich Parker]

I completely agree; knowing the cooking process nor anything else should never, in any way, influence the judges score. However, you and I know there are MANY times (usually multiple times at every contest) that every judges goes through, thinking to themselves "is this an 8, or a 7, well it's a 7.5 because it's this but not that, no it's an 8, no it's a 7..." where they're supposed to err on the side of the team; giving the benefit of the doubt to the team. I think that perspective helps in this case; JMHO.


And to the comments, boy oh boy if I had a dollar for every wrong comment that I heard that wasn't written. Many very respected (and have earned this) judges really and truly have NO CLUE as to how or what is in the barbecue; clueless beyond belief. In this case cooking and competing would provide knowledge.

And there's the old curmudgeon judge; you know the one (I know more than a few of these); they come in with the "make my day" attitude. They judge a LOT, all over the place, and have done so for many years. It's funny, but one of them that I know of VERY well finally purchased a smoker himself and did a few racks of ribs. He said how good they were but the first time they were undercooked and tough, and the next time they were way over cooked and just fell apart. Cooking for him has now added a new perspective, and I think if nothing else next time he sits at a ribs table he'll REALLY appreciate that perfectly cooked rib and have some understand of how easy it was for the others to be slightly undercooked or slightly overcooked. Should it change his scores; NO. However, in this case, those bottom scores will probably come up a tad. Perhaps he wont blister them so badly just because it wasn't perfect.

Again, JMHO.

If nothing else, I think cooking a long with a team, or better yet actually competing yourself (not along side a team, but actually doing it all by yourself) will help the above-average judge become an even better judge.

See we agree here....mostly!

I know there is always going to be that judge that thinks he is the one to fix the organization by judging down all entries that are sweet, and you know we can't help that. There is always that one judge or that one cook that ruins it for the rest. I just don't want to see rules created that do nothing but make it more difficult for the good judges and good teams.

 

[nmayeux]

Glad for your input on the class. Also glad you enjoyed it!

Bunny

Bunny,

You made the class by keeping it light and interesting. Your "chicken" comment was classic, and I think most of us really had a good time. Thank you for putting out the effort to both inform us and share your perspective on the sport.

Noah

 

[Pappy Q]

Just curious, do the team members not cooking at the contest actually judge that same contest?

Disclaimer...I'm not suggesting this as a solution. Just thought it'd be interesting to y'all.

One of my coworkers has been part of a very successful team for 30+ years. They were one of the teams at the very first American Royal contest in 1980 and have taken home many trophies and ribbons throughout their history. In my opinion, one of their biggest competitive advantages is that they have 12-15 members on their team and they insist that all of them be CBJs. Only 4-5 will actually compete on any given week, and the ones sitting out are encouraged to judge. They rotate folks in and out of cooking and judging constantly, which I believe helps them not only keep up their cooking skills but also keep their fingers on the pulse of what is working and what isn't behind the walls of the judging tent.

Just an interesting tidbit that I thought would be some good food for thought.