Low Grand Champ scores

There is a theory that the judges are less experienced up North and that inexperienced judges give lower scores. I don't know if I buy in to that because I have seen and heard that master cbj give lower scores to.

I have noticed this year the GC point total here in MI have definitely increased over last year.

The same used to be true in California. For several years running, the west had the lowest GC score of the year in the country. As the judging pool gained experience, scores have gone up.

DivaHerself said:

The same used to be true in California. For several years running, the west had the lowest GC score of the year in the country. As the judging pool gained experience, scores have gone up.

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Northern Cal had the lowest GC score I have ever seen..Dave Malone(All Sauced Up) won a comp up there with a 611..that score will get you bottom 1/3 at most comps maybe even lower.

Rich Parker said:

There is a theory that the judges are less experienced up North and that inexperienced judges give lower scores. I don't know if I buy in to that because I have seen and heard that master cbj give lower scores to.

I have noticed this year the GC point total here in MI have definitely increased over last year.

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i would suggest quite the opposite up here. i feel the food is such high quality, competition so stiff, and standards so high, that you'd better cook your arse off to score well. but what do i know, i've only been playing the game a little while.

also northerners can be a crotchety bunch. :becky:

I think there are three things that come into play. First, newer judges are taught to start at a 6 (average) and work up from there, rather than start at a 9 and deduct points if necessary. Second, newer judges tend to be "afraid" to give out high scores for fear something better might come along. Third, in some areas, judges seem to think of themselves more as "food critics" than judges and they critique the food, looking for the tiniest of faults to mark down for.

In the end, as long as all teams are judged by the same pool of judges it should work out. But ya, you can't compare scores from different contests and different regions and assume the food quality is different based on the scores. GC winning BBQ is awesome no matter what the actual score.

boogiesnap said:

i would suggest quite the opposite up here. i feel the food is such high quality, competition so stiff, and standards so high, that you'd better cook your arse off to score well. but what do i know, i've only been playing the game a little while.

also northerners can be a crotchety bunch. :becky:

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I agree and will add that I don't think there is as much "score creep" here.

It's not your imagination. KCBS reps have told me the northeast scores are statistically the lowest in the country.

There are some very good BBQ cooks in New England. Two of the last three winners of The Jack are from MA. So why are the scores so low?

I think there are two reasons: increasing demand and frame of reference.

BBQ is becoming more popular, with more contests and more restaurants showing up in the northeast. As a competitor, I like that I have more choices in contests, but it also means more new judges are needed, and they will all start with varied expectations about what good BBQ is.

I think the frame of reference for the new judges is different up north. Living in Kansas City with 125 BBQ restaurants within the city limits, or in Rhode Island with maybe 20 in the whole state, you are going to have different expections and experience. While there is a growing pool of qualified and experienced judges in the northeast, the general population still thinks that par-boiled ribs are great, and some of the new judges start with those expectations. I think some may also bring expectations of having a "fine dining" experience and rate accordingly.

For the most part, the best food still wins, which is the point of course. I don't think you can compare scores across regions. Even just in the northeast I don't think you can compare scores between say, Long Island, NY and Merrimack, NH. That's why NEBS and the Empire State TOY lists now use the percentage of teams that you beat instead of your score.

Rich Parker said:

I have noticed this year the GC point total here in MI have definitely increased over last year.

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I've noticed that too Rich. Last year we thought anything in the 660's would get us in the top 5 conversation, this year it gets 6-15. What a difference a year makes. Maybe everybody in Michigan just got better over the off season :laugh:

not trying to start a blank measuring contests, but someone mentioned score creep the other day. 172's in categories didnt get called in Cleveland, TN and would have won every category in VT.

I know that you can't compare scores from contest to contest and that there are great cooks in NE just like there are every where. Just thought that I would point it out as a talking point. 2 contests, both had multiple world champs cooking, plenty of great teams and yet the scores are very different. Could the judging be that different? is it an issue?

I personally dont think the lower scores up here mean much. You still have to win your table. Whether that's with a 165 or a 172 doesn't really matter.

Some tables will score higher than others and there will be head scratcher scores for sure (I had one at Harpoon). I dont think thats limited to the Northeast though.

> For the most part, the best food still wins, which is the point of course.

Chris hit many good points in there, but I think this (above) pretty much says it. No, I dont think it's an issue.

The only thing I can add to the discussion is a comment I heard from a judge from New Jersey who was sitting at the table with me at a contest in Georgia a while back. While waiting for the entries to come in, I struck up a conversation, asking how they came to be judging an event so far from home.

The reply was that this judge was thrilled to judge contests in the South because the entries were so much better than what they saw at events close to home.

eep: Before I get burned to the ground for this post, remember I'm just the messenger here! Just passing the info along...

Last year Brethren member Gadragonfly (Julie) from GA came out to NorCal and judged a contest. I believe she expressed that the quality of the turn ins was on par with the other regions she had judged in. She was very impressed with the judges as well.

BBQ is very subjective and it should be no surprise that an individual would find one region's flavor profiles more to their liking than another region. Everyone has their preferences.

CivilWarBBQ said:

The only thing I can add to the discussion is a comment I heard from a judge from New Jersey who was sitting at the table with me at a contest in Georgia a while back. While waiting for the entries to come in, I struck up a conversation, asking how they came to be judging an event so far from home.

The reply was that this judge was thrilled to judge contests in the South because the entries were so much better than what they saw at events close to home.

eep: Before I get burned to the ground for this post, remember I'm just the messenger here! Just passing the info along...

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farkin judge 6. :twisted:

Of the contests we were in, GC averaged ...
2009 - 669
2010 - 678
2011 - 679
2012 - 683

huminie said:

I think there are three things that come into play. First, newer judges are taught to start at a 6 (average) and work up from there, rather than start at a 9 and deduct points if necessary. Second, newer judges tend to be "afraid" to give out high scores for fear something better might come along. Third, in some areas, judges seem to think of themselves more as "food critics" than judges and they critique the food, looking for the tiniest of faults to mark down for.

In the end, as long as all teams are judged by the same pool of judges it should work out. But ya, you can't compare scores from different contests and different regions and assume the food quality is different based on the scores. GC winning BBQ is awesome no matter what the actual score.

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Sorry, can't let you spew so many unfounded statements! I can't tell from your signiture if your a CBJ or not, if you are I suggest you take a refresher class (it's free).
Newer judges are NOT taught to start anywhere, not 6 and up, or 9 and down. That may have been the case well over a decade ago, but no longer is that the case.
Each box is to be judged on it's own merit, not for what might be next.
As far as "food critics" I think that is more of a personal opinion than a fact.
Judges new and experienced are just a bunch of normal people with various ideas of what great BBQ should be.
Using guidlines set forth by KCBS, each judge is to score each entry as instructed in their certification class.
Ed