B
BBQSMYBFF
Guest
WELL SAID MAN!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME WANT TO WORK HARDER.. I APPRECIATE THE NO BASHING AND GOOD COMMENTS... VERY WELL TAKEN AND THANKS MAN!!!!
WELL SAID MAN!! PEOPLE LIKE YOU MAKE ME WANT TO WORK HARDER.. I APPRECIATE THE NO BASHING AND GOOD COMMENTS... VERY WELL TAKEN AND THANKS MAN!!!!
Scottie
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Good post Poobah....
FWIW I will cook anywhere from 20-25 contests a year. I do not consider myself a pro. If I am still learning, I can't be a pro... It's all part of the game, that is why it is called Judging... While I get upset with a wacky score, it's all part of our game. We can't teach taste and tenderness to an individual judge.
Scottie
FWIW I will cook anywhere from 20-25 contests a year. I do not consider myself a pro. If I am still learning, I can't be a pro... It's all part of the game, that is why it is called Judging... While I get upset with a wacky score, it's all part of our game. We can't teach taste and tenderness to an individual judge.
Scottie
Podge
is Blowin Smoke!
BBQSMYBFF heres your cattle call.
Vinnie, I believe I met you and your brother at Yardly outside Big Barrys tent. We had a brief discussion on your sauces and i offered my opinions on the 'crazy stuff"... which is in line with the opinion presented to you here. But after going back and reading your cattle call, I'd like to make a few suggestions and point out a few things.
Its not often I have a fit, but I'm gonna step in because you just thru a blanket over my forum, its membership, KCBS and the judging pool by saying we are like everyone else with nothing better to do :icon_pissed.. Heres a reality check addressing some of the things in this thread.
1 - Get certified as a judge. Go to the class and learn what the baselines are that your required to cook to for a KCBS Contest. .. it will help you understand what the judges are looking for and stop blaming them. It will help you understand that crazy sauces and deviating too far from the the norm is detrimental. Right now, your comments and accusations seem like nothing more than a disgruntled and inexperienced competitor. We are all aware of the risk of inconsistencies in judging, we accept it and even expect it. But there is this small hole in the center of the BBQ Universe that if you find it, you will consistently score higher than your peers. It is no longer luck, or a good table of judges you land on, but it is YOUR product that is just that good, you may not get all 9's, but u wont get 2 6's that will drag u down. The system WORKS.
2 - Get out of your head that getting a check makes you a pro. Your NOT, I'm not and 99.8% of us here ARE NOT. We are hobbiests, we are enthusiasts, and some even are pitmasters, but we(you included) are NOT Professional Pitmasters or BBQchefs. I don't care how much CIA or culinary experience you have. 2-3 contests and a walk does NOT qualify anyone as a pro on this circuit. Mike Davis, Ray Lampe, Rod Gray, Johnny Trigg.. etc.. they make their living doing BBQ. They have years and years and YEARS of experience and cook more in 8 months than some of us would do in a lifetime. We are the weekend warriors, they are the pitmasters and the folks who will hand us our heads with their eyes closed and a bag of lump. Teams Like I-que, I smell smoke, Cancer sucks, etc..., they are climbing that ladder rung by rung and paying their dues. Its the guys of THAT caliber that qualify as the "PROFESSIONALS". Look up the credentials of Great Grills of Fire, The boys form Tornado Alley, Munching Hogs at the Hilton, Quau, to name a few. But to beat your chest because you got a paycheck is loading yourself into the cannon of disappointment. Slow down, and learn from those around you, or you will be humbled in the blink of a eye. I'm heading to the the American Royal Invitational and possible The Jack this year, and honestly I'm scared chit of what I'm up against and I have been cooking BBQ for 25 years. There are REAL PROS out there.
After 25 years of cooking BBQ and 4 years competing in about 20 contests(4-5 a year), I have a table of trophies, a got bunch of checks.. but I will NEVER claim to be a PROFESSIONAL. I am still learning from the members here and on the circuit, and I respect the opinions and advice of those that offer it. Especially those that know better than I. I won't dismiss their advice and fight for my right to deviate. I take the advice and decide if I want to use it and win, or conversely, try to change the game.
3 - Dump the sour grapes. Use this forum for what its here for. TO LEARN. Face it, you are in a place many of us have been. Your coming off a high from a previous contest and you get your clock cleaned at the next. Been there done that. It's the nature of the beast, and until you accept that, you will be bitter or confused after every contest that you don't take a walk in. If you can not accept the game for what it is, then find another game. Keep this in mind, A GC in an open/backyard/grilling event IS JUDGED UNDER SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS THAN A KCBS CHAMPIONSHIP. Your cattle call states you take pride in crazy sauces and unique products. By all means do that, and learn form the results, but don't chastize the judges because they dont like the product. Experiment in the open events and you may do well, but push the envelope to far to either side in the KCBS event, and you will have a rude awakening. As I stated before, there are expectations in the judges tent. If you choose to ignore those expectations and experiment with the judges, you can not blame anyone but yourself for poor scores.
Face it. Judges will NEVER all agree. The KCBS system drops the low score and weighs the rest. One of my last contests I had 4-8-9-9-9-9... in appearance. WTF?.. I laughed and moved on. It is part of our sport.
4 - Look down this thread and read the names of some of those that have offered advice. Ignore those that threw back the jabs, the moderators will scrub them out again. But their are ALOT of people who have alot.. and I mean many YEARS more experience than you, and they are trying to explain how things work on the KCBS circuit, yet it seems you are fighting it and not accepting things for what they are. You have your opinions and expectations of what this sport should be. We here, are trying to help you understand what IT IS. They do not and will not match up. Everyone who has ever competed was pissed at the judging pool at one tim eor another, but to make blanket statements with disregard to those around you who know better is not going to help you improve. And worse, it's not going to make people around you want to help you to improve.
i apologize if this rant comes across harsh, but at the stage of the thread, the bad Karma being seeded and the constant jabs being thrown, its time to either accept it for what it is, or add it to your ignore list.
Probably one of the best BBQ posts I've ever read !! and no, I'm not just saying that to ki$$ the admin's a$$ either.
This is why he is the Grand Poobah of BBQ. This is why I hope he runs for KCBS Board again. This is why the forum IS different than all others.
B
BBQSMYBFF
Guest
BBQSMYBFF heres your cattle call.
Vinnie, I believe I met you and your brother at Yardly outside Big Barrys tent. We had a brief discussion on your sauces and i offered my opinions on the 'crazy stuff"... which is in line with the opinion presented to you here. But after going back and reading your cattle call, I'd like to make a few suggestions and point out a few things.
Its not often I have a fit, but I'm gonna step in because you just thru a blanket over my forum, its membership, KCBS and the judging pool by saying we are like everyone else with nothing better to do :icon_pissed.. Heres a reality check addressing some of the things in this thread.
1 - Get certified as a judge. Go to the class and learn what the baselines are that your required to cook to for a KCBS Contest. .. it will help you understand what the judges are looking for and stop blaming them. It will help you understand that crazy sauces and deviating too far from the the norm is detrimental. Right now, your comments and accusations seem like nothing more than a disgruntled and inexperienced competitor. We are all aware of the risk of inconsistencies in judging, we accept it and even expect it. But there is this small hole in the center of the BBQ Universe that if you find it, you will consistently score higher than your peers. It is no longer luck, or a good table of judges you land on, but it is YOUR product that is just that good, you may not get all 9's, but u wont get 2 6's that will drag u down. The system WORKS.
2 - Get out of your head that getting a check makes you a pro. Your NOT, I'm not and 99.8% of us here ARE NOT. We are hobbiests, we are enthusiasts, and some even are pitmasters, but we(you included) are NOT Professional Pitmasters or BBQchefs. I don't care how much CIA or culinary experience you have. 2-3 contests and a walk does NOT qualify anyone as a pro on this circuit. Mike Davis, Ray Lampe, Rod Gray, Johnny Trigg.. etc.. they make their living doing BBQ. They have years and years and YEARS of experience and cook more in 8 months than some of us would do in a lifetime. We are the weekend warriors, they are the pitmasters and the folks who will hand us our heads with their eyes closed and a bag of lump. Teams Like I-que, I smell smoke, Cancer sucks, etc..., they are climbing that ladder rung by rung and paying their dues. Its the guys of THAT caliber that qualify as the "PROFESSIONALS". Look up the credentials of Great Grills of Fire, The boys form Tornado Alley, Munching Hogs at the Hilton, Quau, to name a few. But to beat your chest because you got a paycheck is loading yourself into the cannon of disappointment. Slow down, and learn from those around you, or you will be humbled in the blink of a eye. I'm heading to the the American Royal Invitational and possible The Jack this year, and honestly I'm scared chit of what I'm up against and I have been cooking BBQ for 25 years. There are REAL PROS out there.
After 25 years of cooking BBQ and 4 years competing in about 20 contests(4-5 a year), I have a table of trophies, a got bunch of checks.. but I will NEVER claim to be a PROFESSIONAL. I am still learning from the members here and on the circuit, and I respect the opinions and advice of those that offer it. Especially those that know better than I. I won't dismiss their advice and fight for my right to deviate. I take the advice and decide if I want to use it and win, or conversely, try to change the game.
3 - Dump the sour grapes. Use this forum for what its here for. TO LEARN. Face it, you are in a place many of us have been. Your coming off a high from a previous contest and you get your clock cleaned at the next. Been there done that. It's the nature of the beast, and until you accept that, you will be bitter or confused after every contest that you don't take a walk in. If you can not accept the game for what it is, then find another game. Keep this in mind, A GC in an open/backyard/grilling event IS JUDGED UNDER SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONS THAN A KCBS CHAMPIONSHIP. Your cattle call states you take pride in crazy sauces and unique products. By all means do that, and learn form the results, but don't chastize the judges because they dont like the product. Experiment in the open events and you may do well, but push the envelope to far to either side in the KCBS event, and you will have a rude awakening. As I stated before, there are expectations in the judges tent. If you choose to ignore those expectations and experiment with the judges, you can not blame anyone but yourself for poor scores.
Face it. Judges will NEVER all agree. The KCBS system drops the low score and weighs the rest. One of my last contests I had 4-8-9-9-9-9... in appearance
4 - Look down this thread and read the names of some of those that have offered advice. Ignore those that threw back the jabs, the moderators will scrub them out again. But their are ALOT of people who have alot.. and I mean many YEARS more experience than you, and they are trying to explain how things work on the KCBS circuit, yet it seems you are fighting it and not accepting things for what they are. You have your opinions and expectations of what this sport should be. We here, are trying to help you understand what IT IS. They do not and will not match up. Everyone who has ever competed was pissed at the judging pool at one tim eor another, but to make blanket statements with disregard to those around you who know better is not going to help you improve. And worse, it's not going to make people around you want to help you to improve.
i apologize if this rant comes across harsh, but at the stage of the thread, the bad Karma being seeded and the constant jabs being thrown, its time to either accept it for what it is, or add it to your ignore list.
amen! amen!! not harsh at all.. glad you got in!! thanks poobah.. just lock it down and out with the entire thread.. easier to do that.. we all got our comments, answer, and anything else that was thrown into the mix.. see you at another comp soon!!
YankeeBBQ
is Blowin Smoke!
I'm going to play the lottery and go to New Holland !!
Yakfishingfool
Babbling Farker
I grew up showing dogs, Pollocks will know of what I speak. There is a standard for a breed. No dog will ever be "THE" standard. But that is what is strived for. Now the judges are trained to understand the standard. They are looking for "THE" standard. But there isn't one. So which dog is closest? Depends on the judge, does he prefer a better top knot over a better hock? Does the KCBS judge, looking at what the standard has been taught to him prefer a slightly beefier taste vs a sweeter taste? He may, but the next judge may prefer a bit sweeter. Both judges will probably give a score within a point of each other as they realize there is no perfect standard BBQ to be had. But they understand the concept of being closest to the standard. and people that consistently win are putting out a product, or breed if you will, that is consistently closer to the standard set forth. Take the class, it was the second thing I did after getting a pit. Then go to a competition and judge or walk the aisles looking at creativity. Ask a few questions. I will tell you there is a night and day difference in backyard and comp cooking. This weekend I made some social ribs, they were tasty, but by no means were they comp ribs.
You get one, maybe two bites for the judge to go WOW!!! If he's trying to figure out if that is a wasabi glaze or a tumeric paste, you've lost him and he/she will score accordingly. Ever pick up a drink and expect to be something it isn't? Remember the assault to your senses? That's what a judge feels when they bite into a BBQ that doesn't taste like a KCBS standards. Confused, disappointed, and they will show it to you in your scores.
I'm good in the backyard, ask all my neighbors and friends, I've still got a lot to learn on the comp flavors. But I will say, it has to grab them. Scott
You get one, maybe two bites for the judge to go WOW!!! If he's trying to figure out if that is a wasabi glaze or a tumeric paste, you've lost him and he/she will score accordingly. Ever pick up a drink and expect to be something it isn't? Remember the assault to your senses? That's what a judge feels when they bite into a BBQ that doesn't taste like a KCBS standards. Confused, disappointed, and they will show it to you in your scores.
I'm good in the backyard, ask all my neighbors and friends, I've still got a lot to learn on the comp flavors. But I will say, it has to grab them. Scott
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B
BBQSMYBFF
Guest
Muzzlebrake
Babbling Farker
Podge
is Blowin Smoke!
the drink example is a good one !!!.. slip someone's beer away and replace it with orange Crush and see what kind of responce they'll get..
If it doesn't taste like good ol' Traditional American BBQ, and if you try to redefine it, you'll get what you asked for.
ssbbqguy
is one Smokin' Farker
Well said Phil,and several others have offered honest, hard earned advice. Key word-EARNED. As said somewhere, if it was easy, everyone could do it. As told go to classes-judging, cooking, whatever helps to become better. Use this forum for great help, and time saving tips. Steve.
**Sidebar**
If anyone would like to offer more constructive comments, lets go for it and we will leave the floor open. Lets avoid the negativity and move forward leaving an educational thread in our archive that new competitors can learn from.. what to do, and what NOT to do..
If anyone would like to offer more constructive comments, lets go for it and we will leave the floor open. Lets avoid the negativity and move forward leaving an educational thread in our archive that new competitors can learn from.. what to do, and what NOT to do..
Well... "Shucks".
I have been away and was just ready to launch on this thread
Great wrap-up Phil.
You hit the nail on the head.
TIM
Smoky River BBQ
Knows what a fatty is.
My only .02 worth is this...when I go to a contest, I want to learn something. It may be a cooking technique, a taste that is popular in that region of the country, or even a hint as to how to better the garnish in a turn in box. If the day ever comes that I feel like I am not learning anything anymore, that will be the day that I quit. I am such a long way of even being in the same level as most of the people I compete against...Podge has seen how I place...but this to me is a fun, learning experience. You take either one of those ingredients out...well, what is the point? Sure, there have been times I wanted to personally look for a judge...who hasn't? But what it boils down to is that when the smoke clears, I am still having FUN! :-D Life is too short not to, ya know??
bbqbull
Watching over us.
Is it just me, or is this the first thread in the history of ever where the majority of cooks seem to be defending judges?
Ive never bashed the KCBS and their judges.
C
Citizen Q
Guest
Relevant Judging Concerns
How's about we compile a list of actual problems specific to KCBS judging and suggest possible solutions that we could put to KCBS? I've got a few.
First off I believe judging should be transparent. That is to say that the judges should not be anonymous, I can think of no legitimate sport where the judges and their indivdual scores are not known to the competitors. I have personally witnessed completely ridiculous scoring in the judges tent (899 for canned tuna on a saltine) and have spoken with organizers and Reps who acknowledge the existence of judges who consistently score outside the norm yet are still allowed to participate in the process even though KCBS is supposed to track and deal with this sort of behavior. KCBS deals with it mostly by ignoring it, and this is the major hurdle to getting this info to the cooks. And before some dimwit makes a comment about protecting judges from the violent wrath of irrate cooks, let me say that if the judges of highly trained and physically conditioned hand to hand martial arts competitors are safe from harm, why in the hell would anybody be afraid of a fat bastard in a greasy shirt with a Pabst and a spatula?
Has anyone else ever noticed that while nobody at a KCBS BBQ contest has ever said "MMMMM, barbequed chicken is my favorite!", chicken seems to be the category that consistently scores the highest across the board. I have a working theory on this phenomenon: The time spent after a judges arrival waiting for the contest judging to begin builds up a great deal of anticipation which leads to higher average scores given out by the judges for the first category of the day. Some judges then compensate for this by lowering their scores for subsequent categories. Pair this with the scoring of judges who gorge themselves on chicken and ribs only to yet face the pork and brisket entries which can't possibly taste good to somebody who is already sickened by the sheer volume of BBQ consumed thus far. I say that KCBS should draw the category order out of a hat for each contest at the time of sanctioning. I'd be willing to bet you'd see a lot more 7's, 8's and 9's for brisket if it were the first category of the day.
While we're at it, somebody should address the annual KCBS "Changing of the Scoring Process". I believe this effectively nullifies any attempt to legitimize this sport by certifying judges in the first place. If each year's crop of judges is trained how to score an entry differently than the previous year's, what's the point of it?
And another thing about the judges class, why is there a pull test for brisket and not for pork or chicken? KCBS rules state that each entry "may be submitted sliced, chopped or pulled as the cook sees fit", yet only with brisket is there a pull test for a sliced entry, and it is further taught in these classes that chopped or pulled brisket is usually an indication of a cook trying to cover up a poorly cooked piece of meat. WTF??? This practice needs to eliminated and intensive retroactive training needs to be enforced at every judges meeting.
You will never convince me that even the most perfectly cooked flat of a brisket cannot be made even more perfect by chopping and mixing it together with it's equally perfect point. BUT, serve that to a panel of experienced KCBS judges and here are your scores: 999, 898, 787, 677, 645, 454. Broken down, this would suggest that 2 judges loved it and respect your maverick style, 2 more liked it but refuse to acknowledge that BBQ should ever be different than what is in every other turn-in box, and the last 2 judges are just simple minded A-holes who refuse to judge an entry turned in "as the cook sees fit".
As it now stands the only requirements to be a KCBS Certified Judge are to pay the class fees and keep you KCBS dues up to date. Ka-ching $$$$$$ How does that make you feel when you try to discuss BBQ as a legitmate sport?
I would also like to hear fewer examples of the personal preferences of the training reps being taught in KCBS Certification classes. I have judged without ever taking the class and I believe I have been nothing but fair in my assesments. I can read and fully comprehend the judging rules and guidelines and I can honestly say to anyone reading this that the same cannot be said of every single KCBS Certified Judge active today.
To wrap up this post, I'd like to acknowledge that consistency on the part of the cook is absolutely key to performing well in these competitions, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the same consistency on the part of the folks sitting in judgement on us.
How's about we compile a list of actual problems specific to KCBS judging and suggest possible solutions that we could put to KCBS? I've got a few.
First off I believe judging should be transparent. That is to say that the judges should not be anonymous, I can think of no legitimate sport where the judges and their indivdual scores are not known to the competitors. I have personally witnessed completely ridiculous scoring in the judges tent (899 for canned tuna on a saltine) and have spoken with organizers and Reps who acknowledge the existence of judges who consistently score outside the norm yet are still allowed to participate in the process even though KCBS is supposed to track and deal with this sort of behavior. KCBS deals with it mostly by ignoring it, and this is the major hurdle to getting this info to the cooks. And before some dimwit makes a comment about protecting judges from the violent wrath of irrate cooks, let me say that if the judges of highly trained and physically conditioned hand to hand martial arts competitors are safe from harm, why in the hell would anybody be afraid of a fat bastard in a greasy shirt with a Pabst and a spatula?
Has anyone else ever noticed that while nobody at a KCBS BBQ contest has ever said "MMMMM, barbequed chicken is my favorite!", chicken seems to be the category that consistently scores the highest across the board. I have a working theory on this phenomenon: The time spent after a judges arrival waiting for the contest judging to begin builds up a great deal of anticipation which leads to higher average scores given out by the judges for the first category of the day. Some judges then compensate for this by lowering their scores for subsequent categories. Pair this with the scoring of judges who gorge themselves on chicken and ribs only to yet face the pork and brisket entries which can't possibly taste good to somebody who is already sickened by the sheer volume of BBQ consumed thus far. I say that KCBS should draw the category order out of a hat for each contest at the time of sanctioning. I'd be willing to bet you'd see a lot more 7's, 8's and 9's for brisket if it were the first category of the day.
While we're at it, somebody should address the annual KCBS "Changing of the Scoring Process". I believe this effectively nullifies any attempt to legitimize this sport by certifying judges in the first place. If each year's crop of judges is trained how to score an entry differently than the previous year's, what's the point of it?
And another thing about the judges class, why is there a pull test for brisket and not for pork or chicken? KCBS rules state that each entry "may be submitted sliced, chopped or pulled as the cook sees fit", yet only with brisket is there a pull test for a sliced entry, and it is further taught in these classes that chopped or pulled brisket is usually an indication of a cook trying to cover up a poorly cooked piece of meat. WTF??? This practice needs to eliminated and intensive retroactive training needs to be enforced at every judges meeting.
You will never convince me that even the most perfectly cooked flat of a brisket cannot be made even more perfect by chopping and mixing it together with it's equally perfect point. BUT, serve that to a panel of experienced KCBS judges and here are your scores: 999, 898, 787, 677, 645, 454. Broken down, this would suggest that 2 judges loved it and respect your maverick style, 2 more liked it but refuse to acknowledge that BBQ should ever be different than what is in every other turn-in box, and the last 2 judges are just simple minded A-holes who refuse to judge an entry turned in "as the cook sees fit".
As it now stands the only requirements to be a KCBS Certified Judge are to pay the class fees and keep you KCBS dues up to date. Ka-ching $$$$$$ How does that make you feel when you try to discuss BBQ as a legitmate sport?
I would also like to hear fewer examples of the personal preferences of the training reps being taught in KCBS Certification classes. I have judged without ever taking the class and I believe I have been nothing but fair in my assesments. I can read and fully comprehend the judging rules and guidelines and I can honestly say to anyone reading this that the same cannot be said of every single KCBS Certified Judge active today.
To wrap up this post, I'd like to acknowledge that consistency on the part of the cook is absolutely key to performing well in these competitions, but I don't think it unreasonable to ask the same consistency on the part of the folks sitting in judgement on us.
Rookie'48
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Citizen Q - I have my own theory on why the chicky scores are the highest. This isn't scientifically proven, it's only a guesstimation on my part, but here goes .................... the judges don't eat breakfast !
When you know that a couple of pounds of (mostly) damn good food is going to be set in front of you, why would you eat corn flakes before showing up? I don't think that judges try to "compensate" for their high chicken scores, its only that you are very hungry when the first entry is brought in (usually chicken but it could be Kids-Q, sausage or whatever) so what you see & taste first is great. Kinda like going to the grocery store when you're starving - everything looks so good that you buy more.
Maybe they could try moving the categories around like you said, but I'll bet that the first one to be scored gets more points :biggrin:.
!When you know that a couple of pounds of (mostly) damn good food is going to be set in front of you, why would you eat corn flakes before showing up? I don't think that judges try to "compensate" for their high chicken scores, its only that you are very hungry when the first entry is brought in (usually chicken but it could be Kids-Q, sausage or whatever) so what you see & taste first is great. Kinda like going to the grocery store when you're starving - everything looks so good that you buy more.
Maybe they could try moving the categories around like you said, but I'll bet that the first one to be scored gets more points :biggrin:.
B
Buster Dog BBQ
Guest
I figured it was because chicken has less chance of being dried out like the other three could.
butts a fire
is one Smokin' Farker
you must have missed my chicken scores, they are Consistently my lowest scoring catagory
Rookie'48
Quintessential Chatty Farker
I only was guesstimating in general. I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to bet that as a whole the first category turned in on any given day will score higher than the others (except desert). May be one of the Reps or BOD can chime in here ???
