Mad Science Experiment - Smoke Rings

[paydabill]

Very interesting post.

 

[bigabyte]

This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.

Sounds great! Let us know how that works out.

 

[Divemaster]

Chris,

Thanks for the experiment... I've been looking forward to the results all weekend!!!!

This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.

I think you may be mistaking the penetration of smoke with the generation of the smoke ring... While I know (by Chris's results) that the smoke ring stops generating at ~140-145* internal, I don't believe that the smoke ever stops penetrating the meat.... Just MHO

 

[Pipin' Pig]

Chris,

I think you may be mistaking the penetration of smoke with the generation of the smoke ring... While I know (by Chris's results) that the smoke ring stops generating at ~140-145* internal, I don't believe that the smoke ever stops penetrating the meat.... Just MHO

How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.

 

[Divemaster]

How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.

I'm sorry I miss-read Chris's original statement as to the 140-145* internal in relation to the formation of the smoke ring... I'm sure that a search in this site may offer you more than a little bit of information on this question.

This expierement has inspired me. I have to do two buts for a church function this weekend. I think I am going to inject, slather and rub them both the same and then try and test the 140 degree hypothesis.

You know, the theory that once the meat reaches 140 degrees you don't get any more smoke penetration? I will start one in the oven and the other on the smoker and then when the oven butt reached 140, transfer it to the smoker.

This should be sufficient validation don't you think? Given both buts will be blended together for serving I should not have that much issue taste wise.

I also recall that there is one theory that you get no more smoke penetration after the first 3 hours. I may try this the next time I cook and start a butt in the oven and then add it to the smoker after 3 or 4 hours of cooking.

The confusion I am having is that in the above quote, you were talking about 'Smoke Penetration' and not smoke ring formation. In MHO, 'Smoke Penetration' cannot be alway's determined by the smoke ring (proven by the fact that Chris was able to create a smoke ring in an oven using a chemical reaction).

How do the result's of Chris' experiment show that the smoke ring stops at 140/145*? I don't see any correlation in his experiment to this theory.

And, BTW I am trying to test the ring, not the flavor. Although, I will have to try a taste test to see if there is any significant smoke flavor difference. I will be smoking with lump to which I add one large hickory chunk with every fuel addition.

Again, in your original quote, you stated 'Smoke Penetration' and not 'Smoke Ring' formation.

To me, 'Smoke Penetration' is a flavoring (similar to a spice that I include in a rub or injection). While I can produce a smoke ring to say 1/4 or 3/8's of an inch depth, it is MHO that the smoke flavor continues penetrating the meat to a much deeper depth. While I agree that the smoke ring has a stronger smoke flavor, I feel that the flavor of the smoke continues into the meat long after after the smoke ring has stopped forming.

 

[Pipin' Pig]

OK. Now I gotcha. My mistake. I was meaning penetration as to the formation of the ring. Not at to flavor.

 

[Divemaster]

OK. Now I gotcha. My mistake. I was meaning penetration as to the formation of the ring. Not at to flavor.

All's good.... To be honest, I am curious as to how your experiment comes out... You may be re-writing BBQ Science!!!

 

[Fatback Joe]

FWIW Here is a pretty good (IMO) explanation on what is happening to form the "ring".

Nitrous oxide (NO), a gas, is being produced by the combustion of the wood. Nitrous oxide is a relatively unstable molecule and in the presence of heat and oxygen is oxidized to nitrous dioxide (NO₂) As the NO₂ passes over the moist meat, it comes in contact with water forming nitric acid (HN03). The acid dissolves on the moist meat surface and forms a nitrate ion (N03⁺). This nitrate then combines with the myoglobin (see above) forming a pink compound. This myoglobin – nitrate pigment is responsible for the “smoke ring” found in barbequed meats. The smoke ring is generally only ¼ to 3/8 of an inch think. The depth of the smoke ring is limited by the ability of the nitrate ion to penetrate the meat and by the temperature of the meat. Myoglobin proteins begin to denature (break apart) at about 120°F. Denatured myoglobin is no longer able to combine with the nitrate to for the pink pigment. It is important to remember that the formation of the smoke ring occurs early in the barbeque process and its maximum development requires plenty of oxygen (air) at the fire, moisture on the meat and relatively cool meat surface temperatures.

 

[bigabyte]

FWIW Here is a pretty good (IMO) explanation on what is happening to form the "ring".

Nitrous oxide (NO), a gas, is being produced by the combustion of the wood. Nitrous oxide is a relatively unstable molecule and in the presence of heat and oxygen is oxidized to nitrous dioxide (NO₂) As the NO₂ passes over the moist meat, it comes in contact with water forming nitric acid (HN03). The acid dissolves on the moist meat surface and forms a nitrate ion (N03⁺). This nitrate then combines with the myoglobin (see above) forming a pink compound. This myoglobin – nitrate pigment is responsible for the “smoke ring” found in barbequed meats. The smoke ring is generally only ¼ to 3/8 of an inch think. The depth of the smoke ring is limited by the ability of the nitrate ion to penetrate the meat and by the temperature of the meat. Myoglobin proteins begin to denature (break apart) at about 120°F. Denatured myoglobin is no longer able to combine with the nitrate to for the pink pigment. It is important to remember that the formation of the smoke ring occurs early in the barbeque process and its maximum development requires plenty of oxygen (air) at the fire, moisture on the meat and relatively cool meat surface temperatures.

That's the same explanation I was keen to before the experiments, and still am in a way. There is a new angle to add however, and that is wood ash. I susuallyheard people say one or the other, Nitrous Oxide or Wood Ash being the cause for the smoke ring, but apparently it could be both. I know for a fact now that wood ash will cause a smoke ring. I still have no proof that Nitrous Oxide does, but that would be a whole different kind of experiment now wouldn't it?

 

[Fatback Joe]

yeah, I would guess that the wood ash starts to cure the meat giving it the pink color, just like tender quick, insta cure etc. Might take some wood ash, put it on the meat, refrigerate and check it from time to time and see if the you are getting the "ring".

Just a guess.

 

[MileHighSmoker]

This is my favorite thread in some time. I really love it when a brother goes all Alton Brown for our benefit.

 

[jestridge]

all that work makes my head hurt