can we talk scores for a minute?

I did my first judging yesterday at the Troy Pigout and I saw a wide variety of scoring. Like one piece of pork that we got at our table tasted good to me, but to the judge next to me she said it was not very good. So, I'm sure I scored it probably at least two points higher than she did. And it worked the other way too where I thought something wasn't as good and she thought it was great. Taste is so subjective. That's why you have six people tasting your food and the lowest score is thrown out. It's not perfect, but it's what we have.

If i were to give you a 7, the judge on my right might say 6 while the one on the left could think that it's a 8. That's pretty common scoring from what I've seen, one point up or down. Where it gets really stupid is when 4 judges give you 8s & 9s and the other two hand out a 5 or 6 - you just have to ask yourself "WTF were they thinking?"

long explanation of why scores can swing so much

Rookie'48 said:

If i were to give you a 7, the judge on my right might say 6 while the one on the left could think that it's a 8. That's pretty common scoring from what I've seen, one point up or down. Where it gets really stupid is when 4 judges give you 8s & 9s and the other two hand out a 5 or 6 - you just have to ask yourself "WTF were they thinking?"

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For taste and tenderness it's easy to have valid swings. Remember most folks start in the middle and then score up or down. And to explain taste variances smokers generally want more heat to counteract the burned out taste buds. I don't judge my own product for taste as I enjoy a cigar at contests and know it screws up my taste.

Chicken - I had 3 pieces left to try and 2 had great bite thru skin for sure an 8 or 9 and 1 needed a chainsaw to cut it a 5 or 6. Happened at Auburn Hills to me and one of the 6 pieces judged had tough skin and scored a 6. Still took 1st as taste rocked all of them. But it's easy to over/under season a piece or even part of a piece.

Ribs - easiest explanation is that you didn't do the rub evenly. Or when wrapping with brown sugar you didn't clean the back before saucing and god a sweet spot. Also from a slab of 6 you could have one end that is over done or thinner meat layer so it's more falling off the bone. Then there's the whole bit test for ribs thing. Some new judges look for more pull than is intended.

Pork - sliced, chinks or pulled any of the following can happen. Get no bark vs all bark in a sample. Get more sauce on some than on others. If sliced one end may be firmer than the other and impacts tenderness.

Brisket - tenderness is the most variable to me. It's easy to dry out a slice and the next is still fairly moist. Rub distribution again impacts taste big time. How about one judge samples from the end and the other the middle. Try it yourself sometime. There can be a big taste difference.

OK so I've just defended all judges here and that's not something you usually hear from me. As you get to be a more experienced cook you can control a lot of the factors listed above but we're all human and can make mistakes. BUT I still don't get appearance scores ranging from 5 to 9. I think some judges need glasses.

Ford said:

OK so I've just defended all judges here and that's not something you usually hear from me. As you get to be a more experienced cook you can control a lot of the factors listed above but we're all human and can make mistakes. BUT I still don't get appearance scores ranging from 5 to 9. I think some judges need glasses.

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I can't say the same... I had appearance scores from 5 to 9 this past weekend. I can tell you that I have never turned in a 5 or a 6 for presentation. You can't cook as much as I have if I was to be that sloppy with my presentations....

Just because you have 100% CBJ's means nothing.

You dust yourself off and you move on to the next contest... Scores can vary. It's all subjective. We never give back a trophy when we feel they overscored us. No reason to b!tch if we don't get all 9's...

Scottie, I agree with you, however, as Ford mentioned "most folks start in the middle",
the problem is *most*. There should be a preached/enforced standard, whether it's
start in the middle and go up or down, or start at the top and score down, but not
a hodge-podge, and this preached/enforced standard should be part of the judges
meeting in every single contest. Hopefully it is; so perhaps Ford meant "all are supposed
to start in the middle". However, judging inconsistency really takes away from the cache of any sanctioned contest, KCBS or other.

They give you directions like average, excellent, et al. what do those mean? that is why you get such a swing. what you consider average, I consider excellent and vice versa...

It's all subjective. Folks need to understand that. That's why it's called judging and not rewarding...

Recently assisted a CBJ class that Mike Lake taught and he addressed this in the class. He said they used to teach start at a 9 and score down from there. He said they got a lot of 180's when they taught the CBJ class that way, so they changed to start at a 6 and score up or down from there (I was actually taught this way). Mike said that they started to see a trend in very low scores after this. So now they teach you that BBQ that is out of this world (I am paraphrasing here) is a 9 and inedible is a 2.

This is a difficult one to answer without seeing all of the data that the KCBS does.

I tend to agree with Scottie and his above post.

Lake Dogs said:

Scottie, I agree with you, however, as Ford mentioned "most folks start in the middle",
the problem is *most*. There should be a preached/enforced standard, whether it's
start in the middle and go up or down, or start at the top and score down, but not
a hodge-podge, and this preached/enforced standard should be part of the judges
meeting in every single contest. Hopefully it is; so perhaps Ford meant "all are supposed
to start in the middle". However, judging inconsistency really takes away from the cache of any sanctioned contest, KCBS or other.

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I got 9s and 5s before. Come to find out the judge who gave me a 5 found a hair on his/her sample. uke: Can't say I blame them. :doh:

I think the hardest one for me to understand is when it's mostly 8's and 9's all the way across and then one judge will throw a 6 or something for presentation or tenderness - taste I can follow the ups and downs more since it's more subjective of a category than the other 2 but those 6's hurt a lot - and then when everyone else says 8's and 9's for presenation and one person puts a 6 - what?!?! But you're right - dust off and head for the next go 'round is all you can do (or try ot bribe the judges to find out who did it and meet them on the parking lot - ROFL - just kidding!)

I want to say they don't DQ for a hair on food. It could be from a table captiain, worker, et al. I know they put out a advisory a few years ago on the subject...

Ron_L said:

WTF! How can four people look at a box and think it looks excellent and two people look at the exact same thing and think it looks average?

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Because two of them didn't know what they were looking at.

We find, at least in our region, that new judges feel safest giving out 6s and 7s -- they don't want to appear to be overenthusiastic, but they also haven't yet seen enough scary food to know when an 8 or 9 is in front of them.

We've been at contests where it was pretty apparent from the score sheets when we got "noobed". I understand that new judges have to start somewhere, but when you have more than one inexperienced judge per table, the scoring starts to get wonky. Again, just part of the landscape, and another reason to support organizers who actively work to recruit the greatest possible number of experienced judges.

I found the opposite on the comp I just judged. I remember after eating the chicken thinking that it was pretty good and I scored that way. After talking to a couple other judges at the table who were veterans, they weren't impressed at all with the chicken.

I know for me, most of my scores ranged between 6 - 8. I gave nines when it was excellent and I gave a couple of fives when it was below average. I don't think I scored anything lower than a five. I think for me to score lower than a five it has to be pretty bad, not quite inedible, but pretty bad and I didn't have anything like that.

Scottie said:

I want to say they don't DQ for a hair on food. It could be from a table captiain, worker, et al. I know they put out a advisory a few years ago on the subject...

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Absolutely correct.

Ron_L said:

Wouldn't that be a DQ?

I can understand differences in taste or tenderness within a box as Ford described. I don't like seeing them, but I can understand how it can happen. The wide swings in appearance scores that Scottie described drive me nuts. In the last three competitions our appearance scores for almost every category have been similar to this...

999966

WTF! How can four people look at a box and think it looks excellent and two people look at the exact same thing and think it looks average?

OK... I'm done whining... As Scottie said, I'm going to dust myself off and move on to the next contest.

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A hair is not a DQ because you can't tell whos hair it was (table captain,judge?) If there is enough sample left in the box the affected judge can replace the hairy piece, if not the judges at table are asked if they would remove the hair and sample around the area.
YUMMO!!
Ed

vexter1 said:

I think the hardest one for me to understand is when it's mostly 8's and 9's all the way across and then one judge will throw a 6 or something for presentation or tenderness - taste I can follow the ups and downs more since it's more subjective of a category than the other 2 but those 6's hurt a lot - and then when everyone else says 8's and 9's for presenation and one person puts a 6 - what?!?! But you're right - dust off and head for the next go 'round is all you can do (or try ot bribe the judges to find out who did it and meet them on the parking lot - ROFL - just kidding!)

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We saw that very recently too .. Even in the Kids Q with 6 to 10 year olds...My daughter got 999885 in presentation. Same judges as we had. While my 8 year old built her own box and cooked and put her own meat in, it wasn't a 9 in kcbs standards, I didnt think it was a 5 either.. We had similar scores on a couple meats