What is average?

[ihbobry]

Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

[tonto1117]

Originally Posted by ihbobry

Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.

New Judging Procedures and Score Sheet for 2008

December 23, 2007

The Board of Directors have approved changes in the judging procedures for 2008. After, a year of testing and development, a new judging slip will be used beginning March 1st, 2008. Each number on the judging slip will have a definition associated with it. The starting point of six has been abolished. There will be no starting point. The definitions are as follows.

9 – Excellent
8 – Very Good
7 – Above Average
6 – Average
5 – Below Average
4 – Poor
3 – Bad
2 – Inedible
1 – Disqualified

[YankeeBBQ]

Originally Posted by ihbobry

Simply put what is average when scoring? Is it average competition bbq or just average bbq? This really was not covered in the CBJ class I took. And frankly I didn't think to ask at that time.

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

I think the same would translate to the taste and texture.

So what is average?

Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

[STX Cue]

Not a certified judge, but have judged a couple of local events and I agree YankeeBBQ on the use of "average". In order for me to know what was average, wouldn't I have to look at all of the entries at the same time, then rate them accordingly? That is the only way that you could do it objectively.

[tonto1117]

Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ

Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

Excellent point! I have often wondered how many times judges have tasted the entry..marked down a score...ect...ect..Only to think he/she wished they could go back and change a score because "compared to" enty #(x) they would mark it up or down.

[ihbobry]

Originally Posted by tonto1117

Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.

You understand perfectly. I know it's not backyard bbq, that's why I would expect eyepopping turn ins. Hence the 'average" moves upward with that expectation. Look @ the recent thread on someones chicken box, http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=40223
so many people chimed in with 7's, 8'sand even 9's for appearance, to me it was what I would expect for a turn in; it's a 6. It looks like an "average" comp turn in to me. So in this case I ask what is average?

Another part of this is are others afraid to score it average on a forum like this because 1. they know how hard the guy worked for it and want to make him feel good/not pick on him, or 2. don't want to say hey, no that's not a 9 or 8 because other people said it was a 9 or an 8?

I don't mean any harm to the cook of the referenced turnin, it seems to me the same thing happens with every "rate my turn in" thread, hios was just the latest.

I agree that the word average is nebulous at best, and misleading in practice.

[KC_Bobby]

Originally Posted by ihbobry

I wonder because I was thinking while looking at some turn in photos, that almost everyone here was giving 8-9's I thought they looked great but I would expect them to if they where turn ins. If I saw them in person I expect I would say to myself they look way above average for bbq from the back yard but they look average for a turn in.

If the turn in looks like an 8 or 9, score it as an 8 or 9. One can only put so much make-up on a pig (literally ) to make it look good. Keep in mind, some pictures don't represent the turn ins as good as seeing them in person. Pictures can show the meat as a different color then the actual turn in based on the camera settings and lighting.

[TexEx]

Originally Posted by tonto1117

Not exactley sure I understand the question, but if your judging a KCBS event, you are not judging "back yard BBQ" So according to the new scoring an average would be a 6.

That doesn't answer the question "What Deserves To Be Called Average".
BackYard or Comp can be judged using the same criteria.

Originally Posted by YankeeBBQ

Personally I believe the word Average has no place in KCBS judging since the judging is supposed to be non-comparative. You have to compare the entry to something else in order to say it's average right ?

You are correct. But you don't compare to the other entries. You compare to your own personal expectations built on past experience. If you think the entry is ordinary in quality then that sould be what you call average.

Originally Posted by STX Cue

Not a certified judge, but have judged a couple of local events and I agree YankeeBBQ on the use of "average". In order for me to know what was average, wouldn't I have to look at all of the entries at the same time, then rate them accordingly? That is the only way that you could do it objectively.

See previous reply...

Originally Posted by tonto1117

Excellent point! I have often wondered how many times judges have tasted the entry..marked down a score...ect...ect..Only to think he/she wished they could go back and change a score because "compared to" enty #(x) they would mark it up or down.

See previous reply.
Although average can be a mathematical term which requires multiple numbers, average (and in our case) can also mean "usual or ordinary in kind and/or quality". This is all subjective. When you judge you are the authority, right or wrong. It is your opinion.

Suppose you only have one entry to judge. Does that stop you from judging as you should? Of course not, you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.

Ray

[ihbobry]

Originally Posted by TexEx

you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.

Ray

And that is why I asked because I was begining to think perhaps my personal expectations are off when I go and look @ one of those rate my box threads. I also don't think the word average has a place in subjective evaluation of an entry. So far that's being confirmed.

[tonto1117]

Originally Posted by TexEx

That doesn't answer the question "What Deserves To Be Called Average".
BackYard or Comp can be judged using the same criteria.

When I said "you are not judging "back yard BBQ" it is in reference to an appearence stanpoint....poeple do not go to the time and trouble to "present" thier BBQ as they would do in a comp....I sure don't.

Originally Posted by TexEx

Although average can be a mathematical term which requires multiple numbers, average (and in our case) can also mean "usual or ordinary in kind and/or quality". This is all subjective. When you judge you are the authority, right or wrong. It is your opinion.

Suppose you only have one entry to judge. Does that stop you from judging as you should? Of course not, you judge it as you feel it deserves compared to your personal expectations. So judge each entry that way, not against each other.

I agree. KCBS judging should not be comparitive. Decide what your standard for "average" is and all samples should be based on that criteria and reference standards.With that being said, I still wonder how many judges do what I mentioned about comparing.

[butts a fire]

I agree with a lot of what has been said before me the word average is subjective but honestly I can't think of a better word.

When I look at a turn in box I have an idea in my head of what I want it to look like if it just meets those expectations it is average if it excedes them it scores better if it does not meet them it is scored accordingly. The same goes for taste and tenderness.

To say you aren't supposed to compare is a stretch at the best to accurately judge something you have to have a base line to judge from. If a person who had never in their life tasted BBQ before were to judge one entry they could score it 999 because it is the best bbq they have ever had. But once they get that first taste everything they judge from then on is based on past experience.

[QDoc]

According to Roget's Definition: Of moderately good quality but less than excellent.Synonyms: adequate, all right, common, decent, fair, fairish, goodish, moderate, passable, respectable, satisfactory, sufficient, tolerable, average
Definition: Commonly encountered.Synonyms: commonplace, general, normal, ordinary, typical, usual, average
Definition: Being of no special quality or type.Synonyms: common, commonplace, cut-and-dried, formulaic, garden, garden-variety, indifferent, mediocre, plain, routine, run-of-the-mill, standard, stock, undistinguished, unexceptional, unremarkable, average

[KC_Bobby]

Based on scores I've received and given, I'd say getting a 6 for appearance is basically below average for a KCBS standard of turn in - a presentation that doesn't necessarily make the judge want to jump into the box and get a hand in there.

7 - looks nice, probably good stuff
8 - now that looks pretty tasty
9 - wow, let me dive in right now - did Pavlov just ring a bell?

But I'll admit, I'm a judge that doesn't generally give less then a 6 unless the turn in really gives me a reason - basically a non-subjective reason. Not fully cooked meat, disqualification, something I'd only eat if I were hungry and stranded. I wouldn't give a 4 unless I wouldn't feed it to my dog.

Why? If a judge is giving a turn in a 6, that pretty much takes away the competitors chance of winning. And if it truly is a 6 (or less), the other judges will view it the same. No reason to beat a man down after spending lots of money and hard work.

I want to give out quality scores, but 8s and 9s are earned. For taste, 9's are always entirely eaten by me after all the other judges at my table have turned in their cards ... 8's probably too, at least get another bite. Seven's probably not unless it's the best taste score I was served per catagory. 6's, no need to go back to it for another bite after the table has completed judging for the catagory.

If a judge is giving less then a 7, I personally wonder why they want to take it home...

Now these are just my opinions and beliefs.

[Sawdustguy]

Don't forget you are judging the meat!!!!!! If someone turned in the best looking meat in the world and had nothing else in the box (no garnish) you would have to score that higher than the prettiest looking garnish and so-so looking meat. When I took the class this was highly emphasized. Garnish is optional and is only used to make the meat look better. No points are to be deducted for non use of garnish.

[Paola Greg]

Originally Posted by Sawdustguy

Don't forget you are judging the meat!!!!!! If someone turned in the best looking meat in the world and had nothing else in the box (no garnish) you would have to score that higher than the prettiest looking garnish and so-so looking meat. When I took the class this was highly emphasized. Garnish is optional and is only used to make the meat look better. No points are to be deducted for non use of garnish.

Exactly, the meat should be judged as submitted, irregardless of garnish.