Why turn in brisket slices at all?

rikun said:

.....But, what's the advantage of turning in brisket slices at all? I've never tasted a flat slice that was as good as properly done burnt end......

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You've never had my slices...

Anyway, if you BE's are better, by all means turn those in.

I rarely put burnt ends in the box. IMO, burnt ends can hurt you more than they can help. They have to completely blow me away for them to go in the box.
Either way turn in what you like. If your slices aren't up to your standards and your ends are, nicely present a box of burnt ends.

I've had enough burnt ends come in front of me that brought the score down. They were tough, salty or otherwise not good. Taste what you put in your box to make sure it is your best.

rikun said:

Okay,

For you that have more competition experience this might seem like a weird question...

But, what's the advantage of turning in brisket slices at all? I've never tasted a flat slice that was as good as properly done burnt end.

I don't doubt that's possible, but just very rare. Also I guess there might be some people who prefer flat slices? But then again, you shouldn't judge what's not in the box.

And we've done better every time when turning in just burnt ends, mostly because they are pretty hard to screw up :tongue:

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This is a completely serious comment. If your burnt ends are that much better consistently, you might want to work on your slices.

When burnt ends are on, they can be magical. The also come from a smaller muscle with more fat than the flat, and it takes longer to render. More cook time, equals more variables. Unless it's a big point it's going to be hard to 'fill the box'. If you have to cook two points to do that you then run the risk of a judge getting a sample from each point that vary in taste, tenderness, or something else which has them comparing one sample against the other. <--that's not a good thing.

A flat give you more options. If you take your slices from the area most people do you have a little wiggle room if they get a little thin, or dry at one end. You also get to cover a lot of surface area in the box for appearance. You, assuming it goes into the box hot, have more thermal mass to keep the entry as warm as possible. You also give judges something to tug on, to conduct a test they are trained on during their CBJ class. If you give them nothing but burnt ends, the percentage of judges that will apply their own standard goes up in my personal opinion.

Turn in your best stuff, try not to create a situation where judges are judging your entry against itself.

I think a properly cooked flat is the standard by which a good brisket is judged. The KCBS judging class that I took taught the pull test for slices...nothing for the cubed point that I recall. Cookin a fatty point is easy for most pitmasters...nailing the flat takes skill. Most folks I know turn in only cubed or sliced point when they bomb the flat...

Because I tried it once. My flat was poor and my burnt ends were on point (pun intended). I turned in just BE and got a whole bunch of 5's. I know what is taught, but I don't think I got a fair shake that day.

JWACKS said:

Because I tried it once. My flat was poor and my burnt ends were on point (pun intended). I turned in just BE and got a whole bunch of 5's. I know what is taught, but I don't think I got a fair shake that day.

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Did you think about slicing it? I had a flat that I took off too early, and ended up being very tight, so I sliced the point. I ended up in the middle of the pack. Ever since then I've been toying with the idea of blocking the point and doing it on purpose.

Were I a cook, I would never turn in burnt ends. Too many of my fellow judges judge burnt ends too harshly. Many don't like the mouthfeel when they get a fattier piece and that will knock the score way down -- and that's when the BEs are good. I've had plenty of entries where the burnt ends weren't as good as the flat. The worst though is when the "burnt ends" were actually from the flat!

I don't know anything about this topic but it feels to me that a flat never being as good as X is a matter of taste. It's like eating a lean cut of steak instead of a ribeye because it's less fatty. I'll never under stand it but nor do I care to. More for me.

My scores went way up when I quit telling myself I had to turn in burnt ends. As has been said many times, turn in your best stuff. My BE's have not been that for me lately. Also, I like to save the points for myself. yum.

thesemicullen said:

Were I a cook, I would never turn in burnt ends. Too many of my fellow judges judge burnt ends too harshly. Many don't like the mouthfeel when they get a fattier piece and that will knock the score way down -- and that's when the BEs are good. I've had plenty of entries where the burnt ends weren't as good as the flat. The worst though is when the "burnt ends" were actually from the flat!

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If you were a "top cook", you would learn to cook BE's perfectly and they would go into your box with the slices. Just for the reason that you said, most judges get average burnt ends, but this is an opportunity to separate yourself from majority of the cooks.....but they do need to be awesome!!!

tduffy said:

I rarely put burnt ends in the box. IMO, burnt ends can hurt you more than they can help. They have to completely blow me away for them to go in the box.
Either way turn in what you like. If your slices aren't up to your standards and your ends are, nicely present a box of burnt ends.

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I agree 100%!

In my opinion, there is a wide variation on what a judge considers a perfect burnt end, so they can either help or hurt your score.

I haven't put a BE in my box in over 5 years let alone even cook them. I started winning when I quit cooking them in 2011. And beside that I have the best hamburger in my neighborhood!

Back when we weren't great in brisket and cooked 2 choice I told myself if neither of the flats were good we'd turn in chopped point and burnt ends. Didn't look great, but didn't shoot us in the foot for our overall score. We also did a box of just burnt ends one time and that wasn't well received. I thought they were good, but could have sucked at that point in time.

While we do get burnt ends into the box most of the time if they are not amazing they don't go in. Recently that have also been solid along with the slices. While the reps stress to just judge what is in the box, slices are needed for brisket. Teams have scored well with burnt ends and even won with them, but I've never heard of anyone doing it consistently.

I'd be interested to see what sliced point would score if someone did it for about 5 contests to get a decent sample size, but 5 contest is a lot of coin to test something that might kill you :becky:

JD McGee said:

I think a properly cooked flat is the standard by which a good brisket is judged. The KCBS judging class that I took taught the pull test for slices...nothing for the cubed point that I recall. Cookin a fatty point is easy for most pitmasters...nailing the flat takes skill. Most folks I know turn in only cubed or sliced point when they bomb the flat...

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JD you are spot on when you say that there was no instructions for how the burnt ends should be. With that being said I believe that burnt ends should not be a legal entry. Brisket turn in should be slices only. Because that is the only thing that has valid judging instructions. How can something be judged if you don't have a valid baseline.

I have judged burnt ends that pulled down a brisket score, and I have judged burnt ends that pulled up the score. A bit of fat doesn't bother me at all, but I know that some judges practically faint if they taste fat.

When a box has nothing but burnt ends in it, I try to judge purely on the quality of the burnt ends. "Judge what's in the box." I've given boxes of burnt ends all nines.

When the TC opens a brisket box, and it is stuffed full of beautiful slices and good-looking burnt ends, I think, "Can't wait to try that." If I'm thinking that, it's an automatic nine for appearance.

At one comp last year we were so turned off by our flat, we just sliced up the point the way we would the flat, and turned it in. Took fifth. Not really our primary strategy, but it's funny how chit works out sometimes when you just say the hell with it.

I quit turning in BE at all and my scores went way up (could be how I cooked them). I feel they hurt you more than they help you though. There isn't a standard for judging them like there is for slices. If the judge scores whats in the box and not what they would like to see in the box then a perfectly cooked flat will score you highly every time.