Brisket Brining Question - for Pastrami

You may want to consider injecting the cure/brine as well -

Saw a video today from Chud BBQ where he injected plate ribs - and then soaked them in the cure for just a day or two.

Could take a long time for the cure to penetrate an entire brisket if only going the soaking route

I’ve injected a brisket with the brine and then immersed it, I don’t recall exactly how long it took but it was much shorter than just the immersion.

I’m not an expert on the matter but I believe a liquid brine like you’re describing will be an “equilibrium brine” meaning that inside and outside the meat will normalize and it won’t really be possible to “over salt it” as long as your brine percentages are correct.

It will depend on the thickness of the brisket once you separate them.

2" thick will need 5 days
2.5" will need 7 days

You can go 20% over without an issue but shouldn't go longer than that in the brine.

If you dry cure or equilibrium cure, the ingredients are weighed and not measured. These can go a few days longer without affecting texture or having nitrite burn.

The recipe you are using is based in the immersion pickle / wet cure principal. In theory, the meat will pick up an average of 4% based on the weight of the meat itself.

With years of curing, I personally find the above recipe not in line with other authors and leaders in the curing information base. It doesn't mean it's a bad recipe, just that personally I wouldn't follow it. Do your homework and compare to other professionals who are well known in the curing field.


I would stress to all beginners to use only a tested and proven recipe from a reliable source, there are many recipes I have found on the Internet that I would have concerns about. Just because it's out there doesn't mean it is correct. Also the use of an electronic scale that also has a metric mode is an invaluable must have. The weighing of the cure is critical to food safety, so if everything is properly weighed and not measured, you will have a great product in the end.



I would suggest doing some reading so you have an understanding of some of the processes......
Keep in mind there are many different types of meats that contain a cure so they can be safely smoked, while others are cured and dried. It is important that you follow the recipe using exact amounts as well as the proper procedures to maintain a safe meat product. When in doubt read and read again, and ask questions if you need to.



Here on the BBQ-Brethren we have Wayne and he has a blog - http://playingwithfireandsmoke.blogspot.com/
We also have Jeanie who has Cowgirl's Blog - https://cowgirlscountry.blogspot.com/

They contain resources on curing as well as other items

You also have Len Poli's site - http://lpoli.50webs.com/Sausage recipes.htm
Corned Beef- http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/Corned_Beef.pdf

You'll see that although he used metric weight measures, he coverts them to our imperial measure to get as accurate as possible. Look at the difference in measures and times between the recipes.

Resources for tested recipes:

Wendliny Domowe - Meats and Sausage (Based on some of Marianski teachings/recipes):
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/
http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-recipes

Len Paoli's Recipe site
http://lpoli.50webs.com/Sausage recipes.htm

The Spicy Sausage
http://thespicysausage.com/sausagemakingrecipes.htm

Sausage Mania
http://www.sausagemania.com/tutorial.html

Lets Make Sausage
http://www.lets-make-sausage.com/Sausage-making-equipment.html

Sausage Making Org
http://forum.sausagemaking.org/

Northwest Smoking
http://web.archive.org/web/20010214020112/http:/home.att.net/~g.m.fowler/frame/Sausage1.htm


Sausage Recipes from Stuffer's Supply Company in British Columbia, Canada
https://kickam2.com/sausage/sausrecp.pdf

Sausages West
http://sausageswest.com/7-recipe-index/
http://sausageswest.com/sausage-mak...sts/not-sausage-making-home-page-close/index/

https://www.meatprocessingproducts.com/sausage-recipes.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20010214020112/http:/home.att.net/~g.m.fowler/frame/Sausage1.htm

and so many more....

While there are many books out there that all contain enough information to get you off to a good start, there are a few books that I would highly recommend.


First Recommendation..

Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages by Stanley Marianski and Adam Marianski


This is a book that covers everything from making a smokehouse, to curing meats, and making sausage. Very easy to read with a great collection of recipes and techniques for the beginner. This book is actually two other books ("Meat Smoking And Smokehouse Design" and "Polish Sausages, Authentic Recipes And Instructions") combined into one single book plus more on making sausage and curing meats. Most are simple one Kilogram recipes, so you can make a small batch of the product before deciding to make a large batch. This also makes it easier to make a larger batches with easy multiples. The use of a metric scale in sausage making and curing makes the process much more accurate and provides a consistent product time after time.


Second Recommendation..

Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing by Rytek Kutas and Ben Kutas


This is often called the definitive book on sausage making. The explanation of how cures work, and what they are for, just this understanding to a beginner is worth the price of the book. However the smallest quantity the recipes is for ten pounds, so a beginner will have to properly calculate and scale down the recipes. The book is equally helpful to the beginner or the advanced. Some of these recipes are a little too salty for my taste, but I just make a note in the book and reduce the salt in the next batch. The book also contains a some stories that are entertaining. *** DO NOT BUY THE BOOK / DVD COMBO, in my opinion the DVD is completely worthless, even to a beginner, but that's just my personal opinion.


Third Recommendation..

Charcuterie: The Craft of Salting, Smoking, and Curing by Michael Ruhlman and Brian Polcyn


This is a great book, although it lightly touches the basics, I feel the book is more for an intermediate or advanced sausage maker. Most recipes are in five pound batches, but I suggest you scale them down to try them before making a large batch. You'll find that you will have to tweak a lot of the recipes to your individual liking / tastes. This book takes sausage to the next level with using some top shelf ingredients as well as some hard to find ingredients to make sausages that could be considered in the "gourmet" classification. Michael Ruhlman has many proven recipes, but you must have an understanding of the basics before you try to get into the gourmet type recipes contained herein. Some of the recipes are a little heavy handed with salt and sometimes what I would consider heavy cure. So do your own calculations and make notes accordingly in the margin.

R5Ryder said:

Thanks. The recipe was from Malcom Reed’s HowToBBQRight. I assume he’s a trusted source, no?

Click to expand...

I don’t trust any BBQ’er with a YouTube channel.

They’re focused on developing content and gaining viewers, not BBQ.

I would trust any of the Brethren over a utuber.

IamMadMan is spot on

Solid advice from IamMadMan. Even from what i believe are reliable sources i've seen methods that call for amounts of cure #1 that i question it being correct.

R5Ryder said:

I appreciate the long and detailed response. I went through most of the links (some are dead, and some aren't specific to my desire to brine for pastrami) but I did find this one relevant:

http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/Corned_Beef.pdf

With the exception of my shortcut of using pickling spice rather than the individual ingredients, it's not that much different once multiplied for the weight difference, with the biggest difference being the amount of curing salt. Several sources I've read call for 1tsp / 5 lbs of beef, but that recipe calls for 2Tbsp per 5lbs, which is a significant difference. Definitely going to look more into the appropriate ratio there.

A general question though - why would BBQers that are business owners, like Meat Church (for example) be untrustworthy just because they're promoting their business or specific sauces? What do they have to gain by giving advice that results in people turning out a bad product? And for the average Joe like me, how would I know what "anonymous" people on an internet message board to trust over them? Please note that I ask that with all due respect and with the goal of learning so that I can make better decisions, and not to call BS on anything that anyone's posted. I find the provided resources to be very valuable, but I do have to question the illegitimacy of other professionals just because they make money off of YouTube.

Click to expand...

I’ve seen lots of misinformation (at best) and completely wrong information come from all sources, but the biggest source of BBQ misinformation in recent years has been YouTube.

BBQ Brethren has been here since before all that began. There are members here that predate YouTube, so yes I trust the Brethren more, much more in fact.

Btw… I own a BBQ rub company and I have also been know to hand out bad information (not intentionally, but crap happens).

Owning a company doesn’t make one any smarter (or better cook) than someone else without a company.

YouTube is a content eating monster. Without new content, a channel quickly falls into the realm of the unknown.

Any new trend or thought quickly becomes fodder for their YouTube channel. Whether or not they personally do it that way.

R5Ryder said:

Hi. I'm planning to brine a 12-lb brisket to make pastrami. My problem is most recipes call for a 5 day cure, but due to some weekend travel, I can either do 7 days or 4 days. My other option is to start it before I leave, and take it out of the brine a few days before smoking it, give it a bath in ice water to desalinate a bit, then vacuum pack it back in the fridge for a couple of days.

1. Will brining it for a full 7 days make it too salty and ruin it?
2. Is what I suggested above - taking it out after 5 days, soaking it, then vacuum packing it and putting in fridge for 2-3 days before cooking OK?

For what it's worth, I plan to separate the point and flat and brine in one bag, which I think would be the same as brining a whole packer. My brine will consist of

2 teaspoons of Prague Powder #1
1 gallon water (or a little more to cover the meat)
1 cup Kosher Salt
1/2 cup Sugar
1/4 cup Pickling Spice
5–6 cloves of Garlic smashed

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

How would a 12 to 15 day brine time fit into your schedule? Would you have someone available to agitate your brine bucket on a daily basis?

I'm seeing some problems with your corning recipe, and I'm basing this on 12 pounds of brisket (which may change depending on trimming) and 8.3 pounds of water (provided that will be enough to cover), in your bucket.

1. The amount of Cure #1 is not enough. I'm coming up with 23 grams, which is roughly 4 teaspoons. But it's much safer to just weigh it using a gram scale. Here is the deal.... You need to have the correct weight of Cure #1 which is based on the weight of the meat PLUS the weight of the water. The amount needed is 0.25% of the meat + water weight.

2. The amount of salt (I used Morton Kosher) works out to be about 2.5%. This is still within the acceptable range of 1.5% to 3%, but you should plan on a soak-out, and then test cook a slice. You might consider lowering it to 2%.

Adding sugar helps knock down the bitterness of the salt. Aromatics like pickling spice and garlic are fine. In addition to pickling spice, I add bay leaf, mustard seeds, coriander, and Old Bay. I also add some beer to my corning brine.

I can steer you to a corning brine that uses 1 heaping tablespoon of Cure #1, and 1 gallon of water. Aromatics are fine. You will have to inject roughly 10% of the meat weight (540 grams) then cover the brisket with the remaining brine. Agitate daily for roughly 14 days, but you could easily go a couple of days longer.

R5Ryder said:

What calculator are you using to get the precise amount of Cure#1? I've seen Meathead's calculator on AmazingRibs - is that a trusted guide?

Click to expand...

Typical amount of curing salt is .25% and 2.5% of sea salt of total weight, for a dry cure.

R5Ryder said:

What calculator are you using to get the precise amount of Cure#1? I've seen Meathead's calculator on AmazingRibs - is that a trusted guide?

Click to expand...

Yes, that is a trusted source.

R5Ryder said:

What calculator are you using to get the precise amount of Cure#1? I've seen Meathead's calculator on AmazingRibs - is that a trusted guide?

Click to expand...

Texas Instruments brand, and a #2 pencil :-D. Sorry, I couldn't resist.... I've been curing meats since before the internet.

My Grandfather's method for belly bacon was called 'salt box', very common 100 years ago, and his bacon was awesome. It was all eyeball, and used salt petre (potassium nitrate) which is the same stuff used in gunpowder. Fast forward to the 70's and 80's... once the rules started to change and science introduced us to safer methods I was all in for that.

So, using grams and kilograms is the way to go because the calculations are so easy: First, convert your weight in pounds to kilograms. I think your bucket weight was ~9000 grams or 9 kg.

Now you need to calculate 0.25% of 9 kg. For every kilogram of weight in the bucket you need 2.5 grams of Cure #1.

9 kg X 2.5 g/kg = 22.5 g of Cure #1.

I haven't looked at Meathead's calculator, but I bet Greg Blonder is behind that so it should be golden. I am fine with Martin's DiggingDog calculator. When using a brine cure, just combine meat + water in the meat weight box. Some links on the page are dead; so expect that.

thirdeye said:

I haven't looked at Meathead's calculator, but I bet Greg Blonder is behind that so it should be golden.

Click to expand...

Yes, meathead = Greg Blonders calculator.

It is pretty easy to use.

R5Ryder said:

I appreciate the long and detailed response. I went through most of the links (some are dead, and some aren't specific to my desire to brine for pastrami) but I did find this one relevant:

http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/Corned_Beef.pdf

With the exception of my shortcut of using pickling spice rather than the individual ingredients, it's not that much different once multiplied for the weight difference, with the biggest difference being the amount of curing salt. Several sources I've read call for 1tsp / 5 lbs of beef, but that recipe calls for 2Tbsp per 5lbs, which is a significant difference. Definitely going to look more into the appropriate ratio there.

Click to expand...

So right off the bat, you see the difference in the amount of cure, that's great and the point in question here. Also look at the volume of water; your recipe calls for a gallon where Len's recipe call for 2.5 quarts. So not only is the recipe in question using much less cure, but it's also severely diluted with almost twice the amount of water. The percentage of the PPM is very important; We are discussing food safety with a safe and adequate cure. Without knowing the weight of the meat in the original recipe, to me it looks like maybe someone used a dry cure calculator and just decided to add a gallon of water, but even that doesn't make sense. It doesn't work that way, the water has to be entered into the mathematical equation for a proper cure.

The difference is not only the amount of cure, but the volume of water. The reason for the higher amount of cure is that the brisket will only absorb an estimated 4% of the solution, based on the weight of the meat if it were a Immersion Cure.

The actual formulation for a wet cure/cover pickle is a calculated Formula using % pick-up of ppm = lb. nitrite x % pick-up x 1,000,000/lb. pickle. https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/def...plic-5a-cured-meat-and-poultry-operations.pdf


Without knowing your weight of the meat, the only way to determine % pick-up of cured meat is by an educated guess based on previous experience. It is generally accepted that immersion cured meats at 60° SAL pick-up about 4% weight. If we add 4.2 ounces or 120 g of Cure #1 to 1 gallon of brine, the solution will contain 1973 ppm of sodium nitrite. At first sight it may seem that there is an excessive amount of nitrite in water, but only 4% of the meats weight will be absorbed over time.

While 1793 ppm might seem extremely excessive, the reality is that only a small percentage will be absorbed by meat during the immersion process. At 4% pick-up the meat will absorb 79 ppm which will be just enough for any meaningful curing.

Also here is a good explanation of the process that makes it a little more understandable.
From...... http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/hams
Again, the process references ham as the meat, but the process is universal

R5Ryder said:

A general question though - why would BBQers that are business owners, like Meat Church (for example) be untrustworthy just because they're promoting their business or specific sauces? What do they have to gain by giving advice that results in people turning out a bad product? And for the average Joe like me, how would I know what "anonymous" people on an internet message board to trust over them? Please note that I ask that with all due respect and with the goal of learning so that I can make better decisions, and not to call BS on anything that anyone's posted. I find the provided resources to be very valuable, but I do have to question the illegitimacy of other professionals just because they make money off of YouTube.

Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with business or BBQ, Charcuterie is a whole different world and requires a different skill set to properly cure meats and sausages. Just because someone tried a recipe and thought it was good, doesn't make that individual a trusted source. It doesn't matter if you got the recipe from Meat Church or the President, in my personal opinion the recipe is questionable for an even and thorough cure.

Sadly yes, many individuals do put up contest without research, just to drive business through their channel. It's like thinking McDonald's has the best hamburgers in the world, until you have a burger somewhere else, or finally taste that awesome Waygu burger.




However I did see that Wayne - Thirdeye has chimed in and he has a great deal of experience, and is an EXPERT here on the Brethren; so I would suggest that you follow his lead. He would be happy to answer your questions and guide you along the way giving you a proper and successful product.





Lastly, this is the main reason we weigh our ingredients and not measure them.

So with weight, a gram of salt will always weigh a gram.

.

Originally Posted by R5Ryder
What calculator are you using to get the precise amount of Cure#1? I've seen Meathead's calculator on AmazingRibs - is that a trusted guide?

Click to expand...

I haven't seen the calculator, but keep in mind that most curing calculators are for DRY CURES only.

When doing and EQUILIBRIUM CURE, more factors like the Weight / Volume of the Liquid will come into play for the final calculations.

If you are using an IMMERSION PICKLE / CURE the dry cure calculator is completely inadequate.


For more detailed info on curing I wrote a multi-part tutorial in 2001 and I re-posted it here back in 2018. While it's old, it will cover the basic understanding of the different types of curing methods.

Introduction the Basics of the Cure
https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=148

Knowing the Cure
https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=149

Applying the Cure
https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=153

Applying the Cure
https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=154

What did you decide to go with?