I Warm Brine Chicken... Call the Authorities

[TedW]

Some of us are not being very scientific. Some of us are connecting the dots so as to paint a picture that doesn't exist. Others are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

And some here think they're funny. You were prolly just as funny in science class.

Salmonella does NOT thrive in high saline. In a previous post someone misappropriated a comment that Salmonella likes salt. It tolerates about as much salt as is found in your intestine.

See http://aem.asm.org/content/77/5/1667.full Figure #2 We are dealing with a 1.37M solution of NaCl - way beyond the highest 1M NaCl levels represented in that graph.

Sooooo... there has still been zero science presented in this thread that would demonstrate a warm brine to be any worse of a health hazard than storing a chicken in a bag in the fridge. All data presented has shown the opposite.

[Fwismoker]

JMO but I'm thinking inside not outside. Ha...and I normally tell people to think "outside" the box

[Jason TQ]

Originally Posted by TedW

Some of us are not being very scientific. Some of us are connecting the dots so as to paint a picture that doesn't exist. Others are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

And some here think they're funny. You were prolly just as funny in science class.

Salmonella does NOT thrive in high saline. In a previous post someone misappropriated a comment that Salmonella likes salt. It tolerates about as much salt as is found in your intestine.

See http://aem.asm.org/content/77/5/1667.full Figure #2 We are dealing with a 1.37M solution of NaCl - way beyond the highest 1M NaCl levels represented in that graph.

Sooooo... there has still been zero science presented in this thread that would demonstrate a warm brine to be any worse of a health hazard than storing a chicken in a bag in the fridge. All data presented has shown the opposite.

Perhaps you could have provided all the scientific evidence in the beginning to support your OP instead of having a posturing break dance. Unless you had an alterior motive from the very beginning of how you actually wanted this call the authorities "search google" thread to go.......

[TedW]

What ulterior motive might I have for any of this? No idea what you're talking about.

[bjarolim]

Screw the science...this is BBQ. Its more art than science. Sure u can use science to "enhance" the food. But damn, I think TedW started a post to ruffle feathers and just rile people up. Move on, I doubt people will warm brine except u Ted. Good luck.

[TedW]

My thread, and I should move on?

As you say, screw science

[bjarolim]

Originally Posted by TedW

My thread, and I should move on?

As you say, screw science

I said screw THE science, just cook your food, share your method. People won't always agree, who cares. No point beating a dead horse with a stick.your just being argumentative and IMO its a bit ridiculous. But this is just my .02

Edit: sorry Ron was expressing my opinion about this thread. Thought I might get notched for it, worth the risk.

[Ron_L]

Mod Note:

Before this escalates further, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that is exactly what Ted posted. Attacking him and each other is not going to be tolerated.

[Jason TQ]

Originally Posted by TedW

What ulterior motive might I have for any of this? No idea what you're talking about.

Gotcha

Originally Posted by bjarolim

Screw the science...this is BBQ. Its more art than science. Sure u can use science to "enhance" the food. But damn, I think TedW started a post to ruffle feathers and just rile people up. Move on, I doubt people will warm brine except u Ted. Good luck.

I really have no dog in this "scientific discussion", just thought since you've been looking for a "scientific discussion" you would have started your OP with more like science'y stuff .

Edit: You got me by 1 minute Ron . Though I don't disagree with either side. I should point that out.

[Burnt at Both Endz]

I agree, I've yet to be shown any scientific info to back up his claim of it being safe. It just seems like a poor place to inform some new cook that this is a"new" way of brining when all the experts have always said to make sure your brine is in the safe zone.

[TedW]

Then you're not reading the posts, BABE

[Hoss]

The USDA and ALL GOVERNMENT AGENCIES,for that matter,are known to err on the side of ridiculous safety standards,in MY OPINION.I believe in being safe but unless you are a microbe or food scientist,do not buy into all you read on Google.I have witnessed hog killings and beef butchering,back in tha day.It was far less sanitary than our government requires.That is all.

[krex1010]

Originally Posted by TedW

Nothing can grow in 1 gallon of water and 1 cup of pickling salt.

So aside from a pre-programmed "ick" factor, scientifically the chicken is sterile.

I use farm-fresh, never frozen local chickens. No injected brines when I get them.

I dry-brine beef, some pork cuts. Chicken is more porous, and the brine spices mildly flavor the meat pretty deep.

I don't disagree with some of what you say, we definitely seem to err waaaaaaay on the side of caution. I agree that your brine definitely inhibits bacterial growth at any temp, it inhibits it much more at lower temps but even at room temp it slows growth. I do however think you overstate salts effectiveness at killing bacteria.....you add 1 cup of pickling salt (about 220grams I believe) to a gallon of water (about 3785 grams) so that's about 6% salt solution I believe....assuming that a 6% salt solution will kill bacteria is misguided....assuming it will make your brine sterile is dangerous. Not so much for the chicken, proper cooking will almost definitely kill any dangerous bugs....but the real risk is cross contamination....your brine splashing on the counter and contaminating other foods etc...plus just giving a person a false sense of security. Salt concentration need to be at least 20% to assume bacterial kill.

[TedW]

about 300g of salt in 3.78L = 80g/L

You "think" an opinion is mis-guided.

Funny-

#1 Chicken in a bag in the fridge

#2 Chicken in a brine at room temp

Everyone's pre-programming can't let them accept that #1 is allowing more to live and grow than #2.

And everyone's quick to point out the crazy flaw of #2 because it might not kill every single microbe. Doesn't matter that choice #1 is breeding bacteria nicely. Don't think so? come back in a week and have a whiff.

And this cross contamination dialog is misplaced too often. The notion that some brine drippings is going to contaminate everything is really, truly not understanding the microbial world.

There isn't a pathogen that's on a chicken that isn't already visiting your house and your lungs very regularly. Truest statement in this thread, right there.

[krex1010]

80g/l is still less than 10% salt content...my issue is you saying that will sterilize and kill all bacteria...im not saying your warm brine chicken is bad news.....but saying that the salt makes your brine sterile and completely safe is misguided, would you drizzle your brine on your salad and eat it? If not then don't say that cross contamination isn't an issue....cross contamination is an issue in the fridge too....the fridge kills zero bacteria and I haven't read where anyone said it did. Neither the fridge or a brine or a refrigerated brine is a sterile, bacteria free place....do what you want but I don't want someone who hasn't brined anything reading this and thinking "salt kills everything" and then go make too weak of a brine, leave it on the counter all day and have a salmonella factory brewing and then get sick because of something he read on the Internet.