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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Old 06-27-2013, 09:09 AM   #301
CarolinaQue
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Originally Posted by Here Piggy Piggy View Post

The truth is that a prior board handed down the punishments. They were in office when all this occured. They had all the immediate first hand knowledge of both issues. They voted for the punishments based upon that knowledge.

There must have been a reason for them to issue the punishments that they did. I am not going to go back and second guess each and every decision that a prior board makes and have to vote on motions based upon the information that I have at the time.

Apron issue - Because of not experiencing discussion firsthand when the issue happened, I had to rely on the recollection of the BOD experiences. I honestly do not remember which way that I voted at the time. I think that the lesson I learned, that I have tried to put into play since is to address the issue. I certainly did not put any merit to whether the individual was a member or not concerning the penalty.

Rep in Training - people have talked about there being a connection with the new scoring system and the reinstatement. This is all news to me. I highly doubt that it was considered. What I personally did consider was the length of service this individual had prior to his termination. According to his questionnaire filled out when he ran for the BOD in Dec 2011, at that time he states 12 years as a member, 10 years as a CBJ and 7 years as a rep. This means countless contests judged and repped with no major issues (as far as I know) until this one.

Mike Peters
KCBS Board Member

Mr. Peters, I'm not trying to split hairs here or berate you in any way, but I think that the 2 points in red above is where the confusion lies in my mind concerning this issue.

Regarding the apron issue, you stated that you relied on the knowledge of the board concerning the incident and you voted based on that knowledge. But then, when it came to the rep's issue in question, it appears that you took the time to look up answers to questions from a questionnaire from years past to help you make that decision. Thereby not just relying on the boards decision, but actually doing some leg work to come to your conclusion.

It just seems that the way you voted for one was dealt with and approached very differently than the other looking at it from the out side in.

Maybe you can shed some clarity on the confusion as I am certain that I am not the only one a little confused by these apparently contradicting statements.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:14 AM   #302
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And we wonder why the board members stay away.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:26 AM   #303
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And we wonder why the board members stay away.

I don't wonder. However, a public statement was made, are questions for clarities sake not allowed to be asked in a "public" forum setting???
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:35 AM   #304
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Maybe you can shed some clarity on the confusion as I am certain that I am not the only one a little confused by these apparently contradicting statements.
He has done that that already. I understand his position just fine.
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:55 AM   #305
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He's telling us what he thinks. The vote has been counted. I appreciate his honesty. Like it or not.

Instead of picking a meaningless fight here, just don't vote for him next time. Maybe even run for the board yourself.
i'm not "picking a fight". i'm voicing my opinion and addressing it to the board member direct.

i surely would run if i thought i had a rat's a** chance, but i'm an asshat and wouldn't get any votes.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:00 AM   #306
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Any KCBS board members from the South?
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:01 AM   #307
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Where are the board members that we all voted for so they'd help change things? Steve and Candy at least post once in a while and I understand not standing in the middle of the fire.

Dave? Jeff?
They are not here because they have already learned the lesson that Mike is learning now. Keith
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:10 AM   #308
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Any KCBS board members from the South?
Yes, including one in Memphis and another in South-Central TN. I suggest you look the members to know more details.

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Old 06-27-2013, 10:13 AM   #309
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Duh. I forgot about Arkansas.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:44 AM   #310
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And we wonder why the board members stay away.

But yet...you asked for other board members to chime in???

Where are the board members that we all voted for so they'd help change things? Steve and Candy at least post once in a while and I understand not standing in the middle of the fire.

Dave? Jeff?
????
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:46 AM   #311
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I'm sticking by my guns too. this thread has nothing to do with KCBS stating cheating is better than offending the Team of the Year as the title states.

As I thought from the onset, it a sensational way to once again draw undue attention to an incident in which someone felt wronged.

In the course of this discussion many have complained about people not being treated equally and look to the two disparate examples given. Yet during this discussion those same people stumping for equlaity have never once metioned the fact that another team and person involved in the very same incident of inappropriate behavior recieved a much lesser punishment. Instead all anger and comparison is being drawn to another completely separate incident with an entirely different set of circumstances. So let's be honest, if this was really about equailty and people treated the same shouldn't we at the very least start with comparing the punishments of all parties involved in the same incident? If we are in search of equality lets start by comparing apples to apples. Why was it that 2 people involved were banned for 3 years and the other person implicated was only given one year of probation? That doesnt seem equal to me, yet not one person including the OP has mentioned that, nor has that been the basis of comparing punishments. I too think that Dan's 3 year ban was kind of harsh, but lets look at this entire picture before start comparing it to others.

In the case of the Rep, i understand that many feel the punishment was too light and this was a much more ergregious act. Those may be fair points, in fact I may tend to agree with some of them, but that is another discussion altogether and has nothing to do with a ban for inappropriate behavior. In fact if we are to compare the severity of the rep's punishment it would be much more fair to compare it to actions taken against other reps for mistakes, errors, oversights or whatever you would like to call it.

And whil many have complained that the rep's punishment was too light yet not one person has made mention of bringing that to the rules committee. I'm not sure if that is the proper place to start but I guarantee it is more effective than bitching about he got a year and somone else got 3 for a much lesser offense. The solution seemingly offered by this discussion is to bash the board member naive enough to bravely step in and try to explain, scream poor Dan and complain how the entire organization is rife with corruption, nepotism, cronyism and lacks and integrity.

If you think the rep should have recieved a stiffer punishment, than let's try and direct that discussion towards the proper channels. Complaining that someone else was punished more for less in this thread, may bring some new light to the 3 year ban, is not going to change the way reps are punished.

The other thing that many seem to have issue with is with the reinstatement of the rep and not a reduction in 3 year ban. Once again I am failing to see the logic in this argument.

In one case we have a person that served their sentence (i understand it may not be harsh enough for some) and then applied to be reinstated. The other has admittedly done nothing to ask to have his sentence reduced and has since quit the organization and objects to taking the most basic steps towards once again becoming part of the organization. So I am confused as to how these people are to be treated the same.

One is someone that made an incredibly stupid mistake that accepted the punishment, continued to be part of the organization and is now taking steps towards once again holding postions of greater responsibility within the organization. the other issomeone that made an incredibly stupid mistake that has not accepted the punishment, is no longer part of or willing to rejoin the organization and instead chooses to throw stones and accusations from the outside. Once again to me I see apples and oranges.

So I'm sticking to my guns too. The more this discussion goes on the more I see it as a way to bash KCBS over 2 very differnt but in both cases very unfortunate events that have left a seeping wound on the collective organization. Are they both problems that should be dealt with? Absolutely. But to think they are one and the same or in any way present eveidence the BOD approves of cheating more than offending someone is miles from the truth.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:08 AM   #312
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In one case we have a person that served their sentence (i understand it may not be harsh enough for some) and then applied to be reinstated. The other has admittedly done nothing to ask to have his sentence reduced and has since quit the organization and objects to taking the most basic steps towards once again becoming part of the organization. So I am confused as to how these people are to be treated the same.

One is someone that made an incredibly stupid mistake that accepted the punishment, continued to be part of the organization and is now taking steps towards once again holding postions of greater responsibility within the organization. the other issomeone that made an incredibly stupid mistake that has not accepted the punishment, is no longer part of or willing to rejoin the organization and instead chooses to throw stones and accusations from the outside. Once again to me I see apples and oranges.
You make some good points. Some I agree with and others not so much. What I've tried to say many times is that it's really up to how you personally feel about this. If you want to look at individual actions in a vacuum, then that is your right. I do not look at things that way, and to me the point is specifically to compare the punishments handed down. You don't see it, or don't agree with it, and I think it's best that every one agree to disagree on that.

In response to the paragraph above, it contains inaccuracies and misconceptions that I would like to clear up: I was not a member of KCBS at the time of the incident and have not renewed since then. While I didn't "drop out" after my punishment, you can bet your a$$ that I didn't rejoin after being banned and then extorted for the membership fees. What's more, I believe that it is against the law for my punishment to be based on my membership in the organization. I really wish you would acknowledge that and say that either you feel the KCBS should violate the law or not. It's a red herring. It may be important to you, and I know it's important to some on the KCBS BOD, but if it were legal, they'd require memberships to compete, and this would all be moot.

Also, though it was not my intent to make a big deal of this at the onset of this thread, you seem to be glossing over the fact that I did not make an incredibly stupid mistake. I signed a piece of paper and let some one else accept a 9th place call because I didn't feel well. I could go on about what Mr Peters has done and said to me on this thread and how that deserved a three year punishment or not, but it's a dead horse. The facts are that he thinks what I did (or didn't do) deserves to be away from competitions for three years, and he thinks that what Mr. Ashford did deserves only one. I see a problem with that. You do not. I'm sure we'll both live.

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Old 06-27-2013, 11:19 AM   #313
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????
Not biting.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:26 AM   #314
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Yes, including one in Memphis and another in South-Central TN. I suggest you look the members to know more details.

dmp
The website didn't list where BOD members were from that I could find.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:44 AM   #315
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You make some good points. Some I agree with and others not so much. What I've tried to say many times is that it's really up to how you personally feel about this. If you want to look at individual actions in a vacuum, then that is your right. I do not look at things that way, and to me the point is specifically to compare the punishments handed down. You don't see it, or don't agree with it, and I think it's best that every one agree to disagree on that.

In response to the paragraph above, it contains inaccuracies and misconceptions that I would like to clear up: I was not a member of KCBS at the time of the incident and have not renewed since then. While I didn't "drop out" after my punishment, you can bet your a$$ that I didn't rejoin after being banned and then extorted for the membership fees. What's more, I believe that it is against the law for my punishment to be based on my membership in the organization. I really wish you would acknowledge that and say that either you feel the KCBS should violate the law or not. It's a red herring. It may be important to you, and I know it's important to some on the KCBS BOD, but if it were legal, they'd require memberships to compete, and this would all be moot.

Also, though it was not my intent to make a big deal of this at the onset of this thread, you seem to be glossing over the fact that I did not make an incredibly stupid mistake. I signed a piece of paper and let some one else accept a 9th place call because I didn't feel well. I could go on about what Mr Peters has done and said to me on this thread and how that deserved a three year punishment or not, but it's a dead horse. The facts are that he thinks what I did (or didn't do) deserves to be away from competitions for three years, and he thinks that what Mr. Ashford did deserves only one. I see a problem with that. You do not. I'm sure we'll both live.

dmp
I find it a little humorous that in the midst of all this you and I have been having the one of the more constructive discussions about this.

I agree with you that we should compare punishments, just not the 2 you choose to use. I dont think that punishments should be looked at in a vacuum I think they should be compared to others with similar circumstances. Once again the ones you have chosen do not meet that criteria and the one that is similar is being ignored.

I am not sure what inaccuracies and misconceptions you are refering too. Am I wrong in thinking that you are no longer part of the KCBS? I do not think that the KCBS took your membership into account when they doled out your punishment. While that punishment may have been harsh, I am sure that it was done legally and within the scope of powers the the BOD possesses. You will have to excuse me if I do not consider asking you to pay the $35 fee for membership that everyone else in the world also has to pay as extortion. I stand by my remarks that you are no longer a part of the organization and continue to critcize from without.

I also stand by my remark that you made a stupid mistake. If the word stupid is a little harsh, I apologize but I think it is. The fact of the matter is that as head cook you are responsible, like it or not. A member of your team did something inappropriate, you get the blame. Like it or not thats how it is. You not liking or accpeting that fact is not going to change it. In fact IMO your continued refusal to accept this further demonstrates your unwillingness to accept and abide by the established rules.

Thoughout this thread you have claimed no responsibility for the act and consistently claimed you were wrongly accussed, yet you freely admit to offering an apology to the organizer and mayor for the same act. To me that is ambiguous at best, proclaiming to one side you didn't do anything and apologizing for it to another.

Why is it that you continually skirt the fact that another person involved in the same incident also received a much lesser sentence and continue to use Mr Ashford's punishment as a comparison? Why was their punishment so much less than yours? Once again I stand by my statement that is a much more equitable basis for comparison than comparing it to Mr Ashford's. Granted it might not have the same effect as throwing stones at a disgraced rep, but I think we all know that.
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