New Stick Burner Decision - Shirley Vs. Lang and Business Critique

Hello All,

I'm new here, though I have read through this forum regularly over the years. I used to be pretty active at thesmokering.com but it seems to have dried up over there.

Here is my thing: as countless others have posted before me, I am saving for a new stick burner. I've been cooking on my WSM and other various configurations for about 10 years now, and I want to go to the next level. My intent is to save the money to buy quality, though I don't want to be saving eternally while my ideal cooker just keeps growing in size and options. I would really like to to order by the end of the year, which will give me $1,900 saved, plus I have a pad I can tap for tax and shipping (knowing those charges will be significant). Let me get to the meat of this all...

I had narrowed it down to three or four pit makers, and then sort of drilled down to two of those. Ideally, I would be choosing between a Lang or a Shirley.

My Needs
I have two children, maybe a third on the way, and then my wife and I. I like to cook for a crowd between 1 and 4 times a year, but nothing huge. I don't want to "under-buy", but I also don't need a huge smoker sitting around that gets 1 rack of ribs and a chicken put on it 95% of the time. I'm targeting a 24 - or maybe a 20 - by 36". One thing I do want is a warming box on top of the firebox with a damper in between so that I can get it hot enough to cook poultry. I know I can do this on my grill while I'm smoking, but part of this investment is wanting to have one unit I can roll out, fire up, and have some fun with. I work in industrial automation, which includes robotic welding. We also have a fab shop at my work. I know, I know, I could build one. The fact is I have two little kids and a demanding job. I just don't have the time. Having the experience I have, though, leaves me very aware of manufacturing processes and quality. Wavy cut lines or ugly welds are something I notice almost immediately, and it bothers me. I want a good looking cooker that I'm proud to have in my driveway.

The Contenders
The top ones I have found are Shirley, Lang, Lonestar Grillz, and Pits by JJ. Shirley obviously has the edge for quality and looks. LSG and JJ are no slouch, though. One of the biggest things for me that sets these apart is their attention to finish. If you look at where the MCC meets the end cap, Shirley, LSG, and JJ all grind and polish that joint, making for a nice and smooth round-over. I REALLY like that. LSG's fit and finish seems to be just a slight touch better than JJ's, with Shirley being second to none. Lang, on the other hand, while being apparently very popular and reliable, seems to have some old-school manufacturing methods going on. I've seen up-close and personal videos where I see a firebox whose opening looks to have been cut by hand with a plasma torch. In this day and age I don't know why someone who has been around as long at Lang wouldn't be using at LEAST a CNC plasma, if not a CNC laser or hi-def plasma. The cuts are literally wavy, even on the dampers and such. I know the units work, that kind of thing just bugs me. The others seem to pay much more attention to this type of thing and I appreciate that. It makes me feel like every bit of my money is being used to the fullest.

The Dilemma
Here's my issue...The Shirley 24x36 would easily be the front runner, but they aren't offering much for options on that unit in order to get it out the door quicker. I totally understand, it's just that this leaves me without a warmer box, OR a very expensive and long wait time to get the one I would target. LSG won't put a warmer box on their 20" units which, again, puts me in a higher price range than I would like and also with a huge cooker. JJ will do what I want and they are fairly reasonable on the price. This might be an option. He will drop a box on top of the firebox on a 20x30 or 20x36 which would be a good size fit. I don't need that warmer box to be huge or anything, two racks at 12x12 would be just fine for what I want. JJ does do reverse flow, though I get concerned that they do it as well as Lang or Shirley. Lang's units happen to fit the sizing game about just right with a 36 Deluxe. The cooking chamber is a good size and the warmer is where I want it without being too big or too small. The price is right, too. I do feel a hesitation with them based on the issues I mentioned above, but also because they just don't look like they are putting much investment into their marketing and image either. Again, it's part of my job so I notice this stuff, but when I see someone who doesn't use current pics on their website, has outdated info, and isn't using YouTube videos to showcase their product when everyone else in the industry is, I start to feel like they are just kind of out of touch. It makes me worry that they aren't up to date on the stuff that matters in the cooker as well. I'm located in Iowa, so I can't really see these units up close and personal. The YouTube videos really help me get a good eye on them. Everybody but Lang does a really good job at this, making someone like me feel much better about the purchase. Lang has a legendary following so it's also hard to doubt them.

So while Lang has the right size and price, I'm not sure I feel the best about spending the money there. Shirley would be an easy front-runner, but I would have to decide if I can live without the warmer box, and I would really rather not. JJ will build what I want and probably within a range I could live with, though I would be ordering next year I think as it would run more than the $1,900 target. If they do reverse flow, which I am kind of becoming a fan of, I worry that they have that system down as well as the others.

So...how does this strike you all (assuming you were patient enough to read to the end)? Am I no to something? Does anyone else share my critique of Lang? Am I being silly? Does anyone have any experience with a JJ pit? I've seen some threads where guys say they are great, though I haven't seen any feedback on their RF.

The reason this matters now is that if I do end up landing on the Shirley, I would want to put my order in with a deposit sooner than later and pay as I go until it's all done. They do offer this. Sorry for the long post, it's just so overwhelming when you pick out a new cooker and spend this much. I want this investment to last a long time.

Brad4450 said:

That said I've seen Langs in person and I wouldn't have been unhappy with one. Is it as pretty as a Shirley? No. Will it still turn out good food? Absolutely! With your budget you're not going to be able to get a Shirley patio with the warmer I don't believe. If I'm wrong on that somebody correct me. The 24 x 36 models look amazing and I've almost pulled off the wait list to get one of those. But like you I really want the warmer and I'm back and forth on just getting a small trailer anyway.

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That’s kind of my thought right now. I may be willing to wait a bit long and pay more for a Shirley that is built the way I want, but I’m not sure about waiting another year and a half. Maybe...aside from that, though, I haven’t been able to even get anyone from Shirley on the phone, to call me back, or respond to email. I know they’re busy, but that makes it kind of tough as well. I’d love to see what it would cost to make what I want and how far out they are. If it’s around a year, well I’m looking at that kind of time frame anyways. Even a little longer wouldn’t kill me, I would need the time to save anyhow. Quite frankly I just wish I could talk to them so I could see what I would be in for.

JJ does seem to make some nice pits. I believe he used to work for Klose. All I have heard is good things though I haven’t heard anything about his reverse flow performance.

Hey Ebijack. It does need to be a patio model, I don’t have space for a trailer or anything like that. I will probably keep it on my garage and wheel it out when I want to use it. I thought about just going in on a custom Shirley, but I haven’t been able to get to anyone there. It can be a little tough knowing that Lang’s, despite my misgivings, do work very well. I will keep an eye on those links. Thank you!

Brad4450 said:

Well last I heard the wait list is closer to 3 years than 1 so that might be a consideration for you. I know it was roughly 28 months when I put my deposit in. Also make sure you're emailing Tyler directly, not going through their website. tyler@shirleyfabrication.com. Email is the best way to do it since they're in the shop all day and don't have time to answer phones.

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Wow...if that’s accurate, that would definitely make the decision for me. I just don’t want to wait that long to start stick burning. I would at least have to order SOMEthing else first. At least a Lang would hold its value. Thank you for that email I’m sure they are swamped. I will drop him a line and see what he says. Thanks!

ebijack said:

You did not mention if it has to be a patio unit or not.
Keep an eye here daily.
https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9
And here. Or call the store about when their next shipment arrives.
https://www.stlbbqstore.com/smokers-grills/shirley-fabrication-smokers/
Lang are not a fine finished smoker. But they work very well. Pretty much no waiting. I've cooked on a few 24X60 Langs.
I've cooked on a few Shirley's. Much higher end units when compared to Lang.
Lang does not do full custom work like Shirley. Shirley has a few common based smokers. But you are also able to have them design and build your one of a kind smoker. And will work/cook. Reason for the long wait times.
If your set on a Shirley. Put your deposit in. Buy a used Lang or what ever. Till your Shirley is ready. Allows you to see what options you'd prefer to have after using an offset for awhile.
Just a thought.

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I should have asked this before: you said you’ve both. What made Shirley better? I mean I know their fit and finish is cleaner, but did one outperform the other in any way? What are the things that make it a better unit to cook on, rather than a better unit to last or look better?

Shagdog said:

If you are picky about your quality, and judging by your long post, I think you are, there's no way I would buy a Lang in your shoes. The finish can be really hit or miss, and it sounds like it would probably drive you nuts. You want a shirley, get a shirley, you will not be disappointed. They are all that and then some. What about this.. Put in your deposit, get in line, and then buy a 36" from st louis bbq store in the mean time. when your turn gets close, sell the 36. They don't really lose value, so as long as you take care of it you'll end up paying a few hundred dollars to rent a smoker for a couple years.

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Well now there’s a hell of an idea...I had not thought of that. I know they basically sell for what you buy them for, so that may be the ticket right there...I will definitely have to think on that. Your comments on the Lang are about what I would expect and spot on for my taste as well. I may have to see JJ’s approach, but that’s a good plan...

Johnson Smokers makes some awesome, top tier pits. The finish is a bit more rustic than Shirley, but the welds are well done and they are also fully customizeable. The wait list is usually around 3 months, and the prices are pretty good. I had one of their 24x60 pits with a warming box and it's the best offset I've ever owned.

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I have actually seen these before, I just didn't have much feedback on their performance. I am glad to hear that you had one and that it performed so well. I watched a video of two of him discussing the smokers, and that one in particular, and he seems like a straight up guy. I agree, his smokers appear to be very well built with a more rustic look, without being poorly fit or anything. This one is on my radar, maybe even more now that someone has given such high praise as you did. When you say it was one of the best offsets you'd ever owned, what made it so? To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the un-polished welds on the edges, but you are dead-on in how that unit fits what I am looking for. It may be something I can work with or work with him on...

Have you considered an Outlaw Patio model? It does not have the warmer you describe, but it is a 24x40 smoker and absolutely top notch build quality.

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That is a really nice unit, it's just a bit pricey for me in the end, being that I could likely get a Shirley with the box I want for less. That is a VERY good looking cooker, though...

You said you need the warming box to cook chicken. Is that all you need it for? If so, the 20" LSG could still work. The bottom rack will cook cooler than the top rack, allowing for two temperature zones of cooking.

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I had thought about that. What do you think the temp difference would be? I'd like to cook at 350 or so on one part and then 250 or so on the other...

I've heard many say dont get a 20. there is not enough depth, things get real small when there is a second grate.

honestly, those shirley patio models sound like they're a perfect size for your needs

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You're right, it just keeps coming around, doesn't it? As someone else said, I could put my name on the list, live without a warming box for a while, then upgrade later and sell the one I have. It's not like it's going to lose any value. This is on my mind as well...

Demosthenes said:

How bad do you have the Q bug? If you have a passion for it...then I'd go with a Patio Model from Shirley (first choice :-D) and then a Lonestar. Both should have you up and running within 3-4 months I believe.....and both should be within your price range...Shirley Patio Model around $1900 (I think), and LSG 20x36 Offset Smoker at $1595. You stated, "I like to cook for a crowd between 1 and 4 times a year, but nothing huge". Honestly, stick burners aren't for everyone and can sometimes be a bit challenging for the impatient. If you just like to Q just for the sake of it, then I'd say keep most of your money and continue with your current WSM, and upgrade to 1 or 2, 22" WSM's (depending on the size you have now), and add a Chargriller w/side firebox. (don't sleep on a Chargriller guys...they can hold their own given the right care :shock Adding these 2-3 cookers will definitely give you enough capacity for your small crowds.....and at the same time ,you'll have the Chargriller w/firebox which can double as 'warmer' when not in grill mode.The Chargriller would give you the chance to 'test the waters' with stick burning to see whether that's a method you're willing to deal with....AND, it's MUCH cheaper than shelling out a few K's for one, and realizing it not being what you thought it was. I get the idea of wanting a 'quality' cooker, but in the long run if you're not running it on a regular basis, then, a 'run-of-the-mill' stick burner is going to get you the same results eventually, as a high dollar cooker (with a few minor issues of course :razz BTW, I consider a WSM a quality cooker. The Chargriller may not last as long or be as pretty to look at, but given proper care they can last 10+ years. That's just a thought. But, I totally get wanting a quality stick burner and going to the next level. I would suggest though, getting a $200-$300 offset and see if it's for you. If you can master the fire management on it....then "go for it" and get that quality stick burner. Good luck with your choice.:clap2:
PS. Check out Johnson Custom Smokers - Ultimate Compact Patio as well. They would be my 3rd choice.

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So much to respond to here, and all good thoughts. So the bug has me plenty bad. I've been eyeing stick burners for years, actually. My original want was a Horizon. Those are still awesome cookers, I've just seen the others out there and like their style better. I also hold the WSM in high regard. I cooked in a competition on it my ribs placed very well. I didn't win, but I scored higher than Moe Cason, which is my only claim to fame.:-D Aside from that, if Harry Soo hasn't taught anyone what the WSM can do then I don't know what will. I want a stick burner not just to have BBQ, but for something to DO. I LOVE tending my smoker. It's a boon and a bane of the WSM that you can set it and pretty much walk away once you have it figured out. The whole process is an activity for me and it's one that I enjoy. With two kids my prospects for doing a ton of stuff away from the house as far as hobbies goes has gotten harder and harder. My golf clubs are gathering dust, my guitars haven't seen a stage in forever, and the kids' stuff has all but eliminated the chances of me having a wood shop in my garage any time soon. This is something I can do at home AND share with them when they get older. I have considered something like a CharGriller or a new Oklahoma Joe, but I don't want to get something that is hard to manage with big temp swings. I've had my eye on a stick burner for a long time and have done more research on on it than I can even remember. I do hear what you are saying, but I am ready to take the plunge. Also, I'm not ruling out trailering the thing to a competition every now and again. I've dreamed of catering here and there in the future, but I've been in business long enough to know that sort of thing sounds easier than it really is.

Thank you again for the input, though. It sounds like your choices are pretty close to mine, although JJ is near the 2nd choice for me...unless I somehow still land on a Lang.

BBQ_MAFIA said:

My comments my be a bit of a curve ball for you.

I have two Langs that are on trailers. (60 and 84 DLX with Chargriller).
I haven’t cooked on a Shirley but, have seen a fair amount of them up close.

You need to ask yourself, What is the major priority and your expectations of the cooker.
What is the main objective when getting the warming box and is the extra cost justified for your needs.

I believe in most cases that getting a Cambro to keep things warm is a better option then the warmer especially if the size you are looking at does not hold full restaurant pans.
I never tried to cook in my warmer box but have used it to keep things warm. I have a Cambro also and it works great with no dependence on fire management. Given the size
Cooker you are talking about, I think a Cambro is a better option. (Just my 2 cents.)

If you are looking for a cooker that will get the job done well, all the manufactures you noted will meet your needs as long as you can cook.
As the old saying goes, It’s the talent of the cook and not the cooker that makes the difference. A good cook will produce good food on almost anything.

I can’t speak to the quality of welds as I am not a welder but I was once told that the difference between and ugly weld and a pretty weld on a cooker doesn’t matter as long as the weld keeps the structural integrity of the unit.

If you want a superior built and high end cooker that looks great and is built by a manufacturer with heart, get the Shirley. You won’t be sorry.

If you want to save a few bucks and wait time, get the Lang. It will turn out great food, as long as you can cook, and may or may not be pretty.

If cash and time are not an issue, I would do as others have suggested and order a Shirley and get a used cooker to hold you over until your build is complete.
My 60 and 84 are work horses. This look good when they get there yearly paint job but after that, they look like big black smokers, period.

If you want a real curve ball, take a look at a Moberg. They are not reverse flow and they can look ugly but have great welds and are in high demand.

It’s kind of funny how these choices can be confusing and complicated especially when spending this amount of money on toys.
I believe when looking at top level cookers its more about them fitting your own personal liking.

Good luck with your choice and let us know what you end up buying.

My bet is you go with the Shirley. I wish I had one and a Moberg.

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Thank you for the input, I appreciate it! It sounds like you like your Langs well, though Shirley might have the edge in fit and finish. That's kind of what everyone says. I totally agree about the quality coming from the cook and not the pit. A good pit master can turn out at least decent Q on a bad bit.

When it comes to quality of welds, I'll be honest: they're all pretty good. I haven't seen anyone's that I worry about falling apart or anything. I can't figure out how to post pictures (probably in the stickies) or I could show you what I mean. As I said earlier, I'm in the business of automated welding and stuff, so I have trouble not noticing manufacturing methods and practices. It's like being a painter and walking into a house that isn't up to your standards. You'll never get away from it. I don't think Lang's look bad by any means. I just notice some things that surprise me, like wavy cut lines on door openings and stuff. That tells me that CNC technology is missing in some form or capacity. Johnson's cookers look really well put together and priced. He's a pretty good example of what I mean with the welding. If you look at his end caps on the main chambers, when they get welded on that seam gets kind of jagged. I know he hits them with a flap wheel, but the roundness of the end cap get cut into by the weld. Lang actually doesn't have this issue. If you look at that same join on a LSG or JJ, they grind and polish that edge to be nice and round. I really appreciate that. Don't get me wrong, you've gotta pay for it, but I appreciate it.

For the warmer box, I don't really care much about warming anything it. Truth be told, my wife isn't really into BBQ. She does, however, love a good grilled chicken. I also like to cook chicken (wings especially) and I like to do it at higher temps, say 350. It would be really great to wheel one unit out of the garage and onto the driveway in which I can start one fire and cook both things. Plus my grill is in the backyard and drive is up front so...

I figure as long as I'm spending the money, and this is really a big thing I'm treating myself to that I've been planning on for years, I don't want to short it. The only thing that could possibly change that outlook is a Shirley 24x36, mainly because they just seem to do so damned good. That said, the Lang does call to me in a funny way. It has everything I want in the price I want, and I've never heard anyone say "oh you have a Lang? That's junk". I mean come on, it's a Lang, right?

One big question for you: do you think that griddle system really does anything to add flavor? That is something that could sway my decision. I know Ben Lang sings that song, but I haven't heard it backed up by anyone else, at least not yet.

By the way, those Moberg's are pretty bad...I didn't see any small units on the FB page. Looks like he's building a new site. I've seen a couple of guys sell those. It's funny how much they get for a small one of those being that the main chamber is re-purposed, but I do like that look, actually...