KCBS Judging

[fwdiii]

A bit of a rant.....
I have been judging for only three years. Just judged a comp at Seaside, NJ. What I was hearing from judges at my table and a few tables around me was disturbing to say the least.
As for my background.....I was in the food industry as a chef and a manager for over 15 years. I truly know what goes into preparing food to be eaten by strangers, they say that you are only as good as your last meal. I truly appreciate and have lived with cooking to timelines and deadlines and all the problems that pop up, but you still have to produce.
So with that in mind, you will understand that I will always give the cook teams the benefit of the doubt when scoring. Could be the weather was a problem, rain, wind, cold etc. Maybe there was an unplanned equipment problem and being up all hours of the night. In addition, the hours of practice and expense involved, truly amazing!
After each of the four meats that were sampled at this most recent comp, judges like to discuss what their findings were. A very large majority sat their and pronounced what they found at fault. Too this and too that, not tender enough, too tender, too spicy, not enough heat, etc. And I am quite sure the scores they gave reflected it. And yes, we are to score based on taste and tenderness along with appearance.
I was very tempted to ask those complainers if they have ever cooked at a comp. I figured with all their knowledge and knowing the all the secrets to the best BBQ, that they would win every comp! The judge sitting next to me was one of the superior critics and ...... lol......he is packing up all of the left over meats from all of his judging sheets. I asked him why would he take that half eaten meat home when he sat there stating how it was no good!!! He just looked at me like the deer in the headlights then stated he thought it was a waste to throw away food. Really?
Last bit of my rant....my personal belief is that there should be a ban on judges taking home food, period. Take that extra bite, give the cook teams all the attention they deserve and not worry about how much meat you can take home. Maybe they can let judges take from the left over table instead.

Nuf said!

[ModelMaker]

Sounds like you missed a perfect opportunity to make your point to the complainers. Why not ask what was good about that category? Ask them to quantify their complaints. If they pronounced a meat to be too tender, did that match your thoughts? Was the meat mushy, poke it with your finger and discuss it.

One of the best ways to point out poor judging is to discuss it after cards are in.
You can either try to make improvements or just watch.
Ed

[Okie Sawbones]

You didn't say anything that disturbs me, except for taking BBQ home. Scores SHOULD reflect if an entry is too spicy or too hot, not tender enough, etc. I fail to see your rationale here. Are you saying judges shouldn't discuss entries after the cards go in?

And what does cooking a comp have to do with judging? Apples and oranges. That's like saying the NY Times food critic has to be a Michelin 2* chef. All that a judge needs to know is the rules, what good BBQ is, the common flaws found in BBQ, and be open minded. A style of BBQ may not be your preference, but personal preferences have no place in judging BBQ. I see an improvement in this -- some brave soul turned in a pork box recently that had a mustard based sauce. 9-9-9 from me, and it was the favorite of the table.

What secrets? That an entry has too much jalapeno powder on it? That it tastes like creosote? That it is so candied that you can't taste the meat? It is complaining to discuss what you found with an entry? Has BBQ turned that PC? I find BBQ becoming a universal style, losing the regional differences.

As far as taking BBQ home, I never have and I never will. It gets tiresome hearing that all judges are there for is free food. Nonsense. It costs me about $200 to go to an event. For that price, I can go to Stanley's BBQ in Tyler, or Pecan Lodge in Dallas eight times, and eat some damned good BBQ. Personally, I wish KCBS would ban taking food home altogether.


Now enter the judge bashers...

[tduffy]

If they were complaining about what was in the box and nobody brought up what was NOT in the box, it's all fair game in my mind. And I'm a cook. I appreciate judges giving cook teams the benefit of the doubt, but it's just as big of a problem with judges elevating scores that entries are not deserving of. As a cook, all I ask is that you judge everyone including me as fair as you can. If it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad.

[rob g]

While I can appreciate what the team's go thru to turn in a good piece of meat it has absolutely no bearing on how I judge that sample of meat. If they do a good job they get the scores that reflect that and if they miss the mark they get the low scores and comment cards appropriate to the sample turned in.

I judged a 2 day comp this weekend. Day 1 was KCBS and day 2 was ancillary categories. We tried to discuss the samples after the cards were in with both good and bad points being pointed out. It helps people learn. We had different times that samples got either high scores or low scores from the table. I can see why team's are confused. One sample I gave a 5 for tenderness while 2 judges down gave it all nines. At least 2 other judges got the same meat I did. I could hardly tear a bite off it and then chewed it like gum. The judge that gave it 9's said it was melt in your mouth tender. I cut him a small chunk off my piece and he chewed it like bubble gum for few minutes before spitting it out. What is the team going to say when they see that range on their score sheets. They are probably going to whine about the judging when in fact we scored their meat to what it deserved.

I'm in favor of food going home so it isn't wasted if people want it. I prefer mine fresh and would rather cook it myself so my leftovers end up in the garbage. If tgere is a stellar piece of meat it usually gets finished after the cards are in.

[West River BBQ]

I judged an event this year where it rained all night and well into the morning. I felt bad for the teams, knowing how much harder the cook was because of the weather. However, I judged the food as if it were cooked under pristine conditions. The teams have enough sense to know what's going on there. I am in favor of comment cards, especially if it is constructive. Otherwise, the team has to speculate about what could have been better.

I can care less whether people take food home.

[Burnt at Both Endz]

It is what it is.

On a side note, I see the board wants to limit the size of the judges cooler....that should help with judging....

[Pappy Q]

Judge bashing by judges....that’s a new twist

[airedale]

To the OP: As a relatively new judge who recently cooked with a team I will give you some comments from that perspective.

Re the work to prepare. Yes, it is a lot of work. I now appreciate it more after seeing it from the inside. Actually, cooking to the tight turn-in schedule looked to me to be the hardest. I can cook my 'cue at home without regard to the clock, but the teams can't

Re the work to prepare: There are no judging points for effort and, really, everyone is putting forth effort so what would you judge anyway?

Re "giving teams the benefit of the doubt when judging:" What does that even mean? Give everyone a little boost in score? That makes no sense. Give some mushy ribs an 8 or 9 instead of a 7 or 8? How is that fair to someone who has earned an 8 or a 9? This is a serious question: What do you actually do in scoring if you're giving someone the "benefit of the doubt."

Re criticizing, I like to hear it because I learn from it. KCBS doctrine notwithstanding, judging is comparative. Words like "outstanding" and "average" are words of comparison. So when someone says "too sipicy" or "too tender" they are saying that relative to their personal history with judging and (to some extent) relative to the other boxes of the day. Sorry KCBS, comparison is baked into your system.

Re criticizing, Every comp I have judged has had meats prepared to a high standard. Saying "too spicy" or "too tender" is a long way from saying "inedible." Not only are all the turn-ins edible, they are almost always good-tasting and worth taking home. But they are not equal in a judging sense.

Regarding taking food: Why should it be wasted? I have heard complaints of judges taking tiny bites to maximize their take-home. This is clearly wrong, but to waste huge quantities of good food seems like an overkill remedy. For myself, I take good bites but rarely more than one because I don't want to travel home in pain due to overeating. So truthfully, I can't "take that extra bite" and make it through the comp.

Regarding taking food: From a selfish point of view, getting to take food from the leftover table would be wonderful, but I think that is rightfully for the many non-judges whose efforts are critical to making the comp happen.

[bagel51]

I was ac participant team at that comp. We are small newish team ( my personal first comp) and honestly didn't expect to come out on top. With that being said the judging seemed to be all over the place. Comment cards contradicted scores and other judges. I understand the comments are to show the faults or highlights but when you get 9-9-9 from one judge and 6-5-6 and a card to smokey to salty. Where the hell do you go?

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by fwdiii

A bit of a rant.....
I have been judging for only three years. Just judged a comp at Seaside, NJ. What I was hearing from judges at my table and a few tables around me was disturbing to say the least.
As for my background.....I was in the food industry as a chef and a manager for over 15 years. I truly know what goes into preparing food to be eaten by strangers, they say that you are only as good as your last meal. I truly appreciate and have lived with cooking to timelines and deadlines and all the problems that pop up, but you still have to produce.
So with that in mind, you will understand that I will always give the cook teams the benefit of the doubt when scoring. Could be the weather was a problem, rain, wind, cold etc. Maybe there was an unplanned equipment problem and being up all hours of the night. In addition, the hours of practice and expense involved, truly amazing!
After each of the four meats that were sampled at this most recent comp, judges like to discuss what their findings were. A very large majority sat their and pronounced what they found at fault. Too this and too that, not tender enough, too tender, too spicy, not enough heat, etc. And I am quite sure the scores they gave reflected it. And yes, we are to score based on taste and tenderness along with appearance.
I was very tempted to ask those complainers if they have ever cooked at a comp. I figured with all their knowledge and knowing the all the secrets to the best BBQ, that they would win every comp! The judge sitting next to me was one of the superior critics and ...... lol......he is packing up all of the left over meats from all of his judging sheets. I asked him why would he take that half eaten meat home when he sat there stating how it was no good!!! He just looked at me like the deer in the headlights then stated he thought it was a waste to throw away food. Really?
Last bit of my rant....my personal belief is that there should be a ban on judges taking home food, period. Take that extra bite, give the cook teams all the attention they deserve and not worry about how much meat you can take home. Maybe they can let judges take from the left over table instead.

Nuf said!

I don't have a problem with judges taking a point for an entry that was too salty, or too chewy if it reflects the sample they had. I have issues with judges that will take a point because an entry has more salt than they prefer at home. It's a fine distinction, but personal preference is not supposed to influence judging.

Without knowing the quality of the samples that were discussed, exactly what was said by those judges, or what they meant I have no idea if your rant is valid or not.

Other parts of your post I agree with. I'd like all judges to take healthy samples to fully, and fairly evaluate each entry. To be clear for the bash sensitive I'm not pointing a finger at all judges, or all judges that carry a cooler. Just the ones that nibble to satisfy the requirement and jot down an 8 or a 9 regardless of merit. Personally I'd like to see everything go to the trash after judging, and adopt the suggestion made by @gettinbasted that cooks contribute leftovers to distribute to judges and volunteers.

I have no problem with a cook getting the benefit of doubt if a judge is torn between two scores. Give them the 8 instead of a 7. What I have a problem with is the notion that they've spent money and put in effort and the food has to be inedible for a 7 or less because of the damage it would do. If it's a 7, give them a 7. Inflated scores hurt the entire field.

^^^^ None of the above was directed at any one individual or intended to condemn judges as a group! If anybody has taken it that way please feel free to PM me, and I'll be happy to explain further and more than likely give you something to be pissed off about

[airedale]

Originally Posted by bagel51

I was ac participant team at that comp. We are small newish team ( my personal first comp) and honestly didn't expect to come out on top. With that being said the judging seemed to be all over the place. Comment cards contradicted scores and other judges. I understand the comments are to show the faults or highlights but when you get 9-9-9 from one judge and 6-5-6 and a card to smokey to salty. Where the hell do you go?

Well one thing that was explained to me was that judges' scores for a particular box can vary quite a bit if the competitor has included, for example, ribs from different racks. Some ribs can be a 9 and others a 7. So as a competitor you might want to kind of keep track of whether a turn-in box is all from one rack, one shoulder, etc. and then consider varying scores with that as a consideration.

[DUBBAGA]

Originally Posted by tduffy

If they were complaining about what was in the box and nobody brought up what was NOT in the box, it's all fair game in my mind. And I'm a cook. I appreciate judges giving cook teams the benefit of the doubt, but it's just as big of a problem with judges elevating scores that entries are not deserving of. As a cook, all I ask is that you judge everyone including me as fair as you can. If it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad.

Nice showing at the Royal. Welocme back

[bagel51]

Originally Posted by airedale

Well one thing that was explained to me was that judges' scores for a particular box can vary quite a bit if the competitor has included, for example, ribs from different racks. Some ribs can be a 9 and others a 7. So as a competitor you might want to kind of keep track of whether a turn-in box is all from one rack, one shoulder, etc. and then consider varying scores with that as a consideration.

That I would completely understand but they all came from single meat. thats what is frustrating

[Okie Sawbones]

Originally Posted by bagel51

I was ac participant team at that comp. We are small newish team ( my personal first comp) and honestly didn't expect to come out on top. With that being said the judging seemed to be all over the place. Comment cards contradicted scores and other judges. I understand the comments are to show the faults or highlights but when you get 9-9-9 from one judge and 6-5-6 and a card to smokey to salty. Where the hell do you go?

Not to dismiss poor judges, because there are some floating out there, do you know if the event had celebrity judges? They tend to be the worst, with low scores common. I have sat with several over the years.


Also, another example. After a round of chicken was over, table talk had number 5 the best chicken. It was my least favorite, being way over salted. I asked the guy next to me if I could take a bite of the other side of his chicken thigh. It was good. He tried mine and was surprised at how salty it was. Explain that to me from a cook's perspective.