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Competition BBQ *On Topic Only* Discussion regarding all aspects of Competition BBQ. Experiences competing or visiting, questions, getting started, Equipment, announcements of events, Results, Reviews, Planning, etc. Questions here will be responded to with competition BBQ in mind.


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Old 09-21-2021, 12:07 PM   #1
Juggy D Beerman
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Default What are the odds?

Yo to all, After a day of much needed rest, I have a note about the judging at the American Royal BBQ contest. I know there having been many posts complaining about the supposed "tables of death" at contests this is not one of those. Upon reviewing the scores I noticed this. I am not complaining and this merely an observation. With approximately 460 teams cooking, it stands to reason there should have been around 75 judging tables. Judging table 981 submitted the winning scores for both chicken and pork. Is this what is referred to as an "angels table"? What are the odds? The same team did not take first in both of those two categories.



This was my 31st Royal, For the last several years, it has been the only contest I cook. I am a realist and I know if I do win a ribbon, it is pure luck. Congratulations to all on the forum who did win a ribbon. I guess I should feel good about finishing 25th overall in the side dish competition.


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Old 09-22-2021, 07:37 AM   #2
Robert
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Congrats on your 31st year at the American Royal. TOD and TOA do exist and I doubt there is anything that can happen to change that. Where did you get the overall results for the side dish?


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Old 09-22-2021, 09:30 AM   #3
midwest_kc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Congrats on your 31st year at the American Royal. TOD and TOA do exist and I doubt there is anything that can happen to change that. Where did you get the overall results for the side dish?


Thanks,


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Agreed, though I think more can (and is) being done to try to get judges on the same page as far as what a 9,8,7, etc mean

It's on KCBS website, as well as the royal's site
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:31 AM   #4
Juggy D Beerman
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Yo Robert, Thanks for the kind words on my longevity at the Royal. I wish I had taken better notes of my past experiences. I would have even more stories to tell.......


My comments were not criticisms of the judging process by any means. I just thought it was highly unlikely that a contest that big with that many judging tables, would have two championship scores come from the same table.


If this cut and paste job works, here is a link to the AR BBQ's Facebook site that lists all the results from this year's contest:


https://www.americanroyal.com/bbq/co...vd8QC9va9kKx-A


Lager,


Juggy
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Old 09-22-2021, 12:01 PM   #5
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Juggy.... Here's to #31

On the Invitational tally sheets for chicken, ribs, pork and brisket it appears that tables 191, 175, 526, 458, and 389 appear often on page 1. In fact.... Table # 191 gave a 1st in pork and a 4th in brisket. And Table # 175 gave a 1st in pork, 2nd in chicken and 3rd in brisket.

EDIT - Removed other comments because I didn't have my thinkin' cap on straight.
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Last edited by thirdeye; 09-22-2021 at 02:19 PM..
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Old 09-22-2021, 01:14 PM   #6
Candy Sue
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What are the odds of hitting the same table twice at the Royal?

Don't know numbers, but I do know I achieved it last time I cooked it.
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Old 09-22-2021, 01:45 PM   #7
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Juggy.... Here's to #31

I wonder if your question "What are the odds?" could be explained by record keeping, or data entry? Here is something to chew on....

On the Invitational tally sheets for chicken, ribs, pork and brisket page 1 only, at first glance it appeared that tables 191, 175, 526, 458, and 389 appear often. In fact.... Table # 191 gave a 1st in pork and a 4th in brisket.

Upon closer examination, I noticed several duplications in table numbers on page 1. Then I noticed some multiples X3, X4 and more and more through the remaining pages.

For example, look at Invitational Ribs and you will see that table 526 appears 6 times. Team Rank #'s 10, 21, 22, 76, 78, and 182.

Next, look at Invitational Pork and you will see that table 977 also appears 6 times. Team Rank #'s 7, 19, 21, 65, 81 and 148.

Back your your question about table # 981 in the Open Chicken, that table # appears 7 times in the Team Rankings. And guess what.... table # 981 also appears 7 times in the Team Rankings for Open Pork.

I know teams really analyze the judges scores, but how many go through the tally sheets to confirm the table # their food landed on was not duplicated? Obviously the actual judging slips will contain the true scores for a given team. But that's a lot of table numbers duplicated.
I don't understand what you're asking. There is more than one entry at each table. They should be duplicated.
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Old 09-22-2021, 02:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
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I don't understand what you're asking. There is more than one entry at each table. They should be duplicated.
Apparently I didn't either. Something was bugging me with those repeating table numbers..... I must have come to the same conclusion as you were typing and I edited my post above.
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Old 09-22-2021, 04:26 PM   #9
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The other thing to factor with "angel" tables or "TOD" at a comp like the Royal, is that there is every possibility that that table got bad food all day. 470 teams, and if we're being honest, probably 170+ of them were not turning in good comp food. So in a normal say 25 team contest that runs 4 tables - what are the odds that the worst food ends up at one, or the best at another on all 4 turn ins? Probably pretty small. But When there's upwards of 200 of those boxes floating around? It's certainly more likely.
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Old 09-22-2021, 11:06 PM   #10
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The angel tables are really hard to be sure of as are TODs where all of the scores are low. Did the angel tables get all good food? Did the TODs where all of the scores are low just get bad food? I don't think anyone can answer that.

The real head scratchers are the ones that have scores all over the place. In chicken at the Royal we finished second on our table with scores of 36, 29.1, 33.7, 29.1, 36 & 29.1. I am not sure if it was bad chicken and deserved a 29 or if it was great chicken and deserved a 36 but it can't be both. Incidentally, SLAPS BBQ (currently 1st in KCBS Chicken) finished fourth on the table at 328th overall.
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Old 09-23-2021, 09:02 AM   #11
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Trying to assign a pattern or explanation to the judging at the American Royal is an exercise in futility. Go cook it to experience it and maybe you’ll get lucky.

The open has 400 plus judges, many of them first timers. There is zero consistency. A dart board would be just as viable of a judging platform for picking winners.
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Old 09-23-2021, 10:38 AM   #12
Juggy D Beerman
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Years ago, my dear departed dad compared the judging results at the Royal as shooting dice in the dark.



My sentiments are, you still have to cook your best, but due to the number of first time judges, there will be some inconsistent judging. At the last AR, I had a judge give me a 5 for tenderness for my broccoli cole slaw that was submitted in the vegetable side dish category. When I saw that score, I laughed and moved on. I rationalized that tendernaess score with, "It's the Royal, Juggy".


Lager,


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Old 09-23-2021, 02:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juggy D Beerman View Post
Years ago, my dear departed dad compared the judging results at the Royal as shooting dice in the dark.



My sentiments are, you still have to cook your best, but due to the number of first time judges, there will be some inconsistent judging. At the last AR, I had a judge give me a 5 for tenderness for my broccoli cole slaw that was submitted in the vegetable side dish category. When I saw that score, I laughed and moved on. I rationalized that tendernaess score with, "It's the Royal, Juggy".


Lager,


Juggy
I got a 3 in tenderness on turkey last weekend. I got a pretty good laugh out of it.
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