New Stick Burner Decision - Shirley Vs. Lang and Business Critique

BBQ_MAFIA said:

My comments my be a bit of a curve ball for you.

I have two Langs that are on trailers. (60 and 84 DLX with Chargriller).
I haven’t cooked on a Shirley but, have seen a fair amount of them up close.

You need to ask yourself, What is the major priority and your expectations of the cooker.
What is the main objective when getting the warming box and is the extra cost justified for your needs.

I believe in most cases that getting a Cambro to keep things warm is a better option then the warmer especially if the size you are looking at does not hold full restaurant pans.
I never tried to cook in my warmer box but have used it to keep things warm. I have a Cambro also and it works great with no dependence on fire management. Given the size
Cooker you are talking about, I think a Cambro is a better option. (Just my 2 cents.)

If you are looking for a cooker that will get the job done well, all the manufactures you noted will meet your needs as long as you can cook.
As the old saying goes, It’s the talent of the cook and not the cooker that makes the difference. A good cook will produce good food on almost anything.

I can’t speak to the quality of welds as I am not a welder but I was once told that the difference between and ugly weld and a pretty weld on a cooker doesn’t matter as long as the weld keeps the structural integrity of the unit.

If you want a superior built and high end cooker that looks great and is built by a manufacturer with heart, get the Shirley. You won’t be sorry.

If you want to save a few bucks and wait time, get the Lang. It will turn out great food, as long as you can cook, and may or may not be pretty.

If cash and time are not an issue, I would do as others have suggested and order a Shirley and get a used cooker to hold you over until your build is complete.
My 60 and 84 are work horses. This look good when they get there yearly paint job but after that, they look like big black smokers, period.

If you want a real curve ball, take a look at a Moberg. They are not reverse flow and they can look ugly but have great welds and are in high demand.

It’s kind of funny how these choices can be confusing and complicated especially when spending this amount of money on toys.
I believe when looking at top level cookers its more about them fitting your own personal liking.

Good luck with your choice and let us know what you end up buying.

My bet is you go with the Shirley. I wish I had one and a Moberg.

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The warmer on a Shirley has a damper so you can either hold or cook other things at a lower (or hotter) temperature while cooking at a higher temperature in the main chamber. I do mac and cheese, corn bread, greens, bbq beans, etc in the warmer while cooking ribs, butts, or brisket in the main chamber. The warmer is a game changer.

I have a very large Shirley and other cooking components on a trailer.I love it for large cooks.I am building a new home and want a smaller Shirley there.I am going to buy one of the smaller "cookie cutter" Shirley's for my patio when my home is finished and order a small Shirley built to the specs that I want.When the custom "baby" Shirley is close to delivery,I will sell the "cookie cutter" Shirley and have the custom one to replace it.I will get more than enough enjoyment and good food for very little to no loss on resale and avoid the wait.That is the plan.Good luck on whatever you decide.

I got serious about BBQ in the early '90s, before it was cool. I saved for 5 years and bought a Klose. It was an amazing pit and I loved it. This was before Shirley's came on the market. After attending a Bash in MS held by Brethren ThatGrimGuy, I became obsessed with Shirleys. Unfortunately, (Fortunately???) my Klose was badly damaged in a move. I used the insurance $$$ to buy a Shirley. It is perfect and will be my forever pit. I have nothing, not one thing, bad to say about Klose, but my Shirley is absolutely perfect. It cooks perfectly, it holds temps, it is fuel efficient, etc. If you think you want one, get it. It is worth the wait. one and done...

@BigPappa1,

You asked about why I said the Johnson Smokers was the best offset I've ever owned and it's because of this : the thing just flat out works well. It's so easy to operate as you just build a fire, open the exhaust stacks, and the cooker practically runs itself. Fire management was super easy as the way Chad Johnson designed these cookers the draft is very strong and the entire cooking chamber is within about 5° left to right. The top rack was usually 15-20° hotter than the bottom rack, but again, left to right was almost perfectly uniform. For me, as I'm running a BBQ business, that made life very easy because I could put meat anywhere and know it was all cooking at the same temperature.

Johnson makes reverse flow smokers and he has kind of a "twist" on the design when it comes to the reverse flow baffle plate.... there is no baffle plate. Instead he uses a long pipe which extends into the firebox, and runs all the way under the smoke chamber, and then introduces the heat and smoke to the far end of the smoke chamber. There are 2 exhaust stacks with one towards the rear of the cooker and the other towards the front of the cooker. This ensures that the heat and smoker are pulled evenly across the cooking grates and then out the stacks.

One of the normal critiques of reverse flow smokers is that the baffle plate makes it hard to clean, and that when grease falls onto the plate it sears off and can give a bitter odor / aroma to the meat. Chad has effectively solved that problem with his design and it works very well. The reverse flow pipe is removable and it's easy to get in there and clean everything out compared to just about every other reverse flow cooker that I've seen.

Inside the warming box he can install a baffle so that the heat and smoke from the firebox can come right into the warming box, and this allows you to cook at high temps in there if you desire. I did a KCBS competition where they asked us to cook 6 extra pork butts (which they provided) and I ended up cooking them all in the warming cabinet because I was using the main smoke chamber for my competition food. Only thing is that you'll need to cook in pans inside the warming box otherwise food and grease drops down onto the top of the warming cabinet and can bake off.

The only reason I sold that smoker was because as my business grew it just wasn't large enough anymore. I was doing 4 briskets and 4 butts, but I was running out of food in an hour, so I needed more capacity. The only reason I didn't buy another Johnson Smoker was the cost as money was a bit tight. So I moved to a front-offset "hog style" smoker and it had about 3x the capacity of my Johnson cooker, but it didn't cook as well. It did what it needed to do, but the temp differential across the cooking grates was pretty bad, and I just didn't have the same control that I did in my Johnson cooker.

I've cooked on a small Yoder, the Johnson Smoker, and that hog style smoker, and I've seen a ton of Langs and Jambo smokers at competitions. Johnson is right up there with the best of them and after 3+ years of being outside it's still holding up very strong. My buddy cooks on it 3-5 days a week and he absolutely loves it.

Bigpappa1 said:

I should have asked this before: you said you’ve both. What made Shirley better? I mean I know their fit and finish is cleaner, but did one outperform the other in any way? What are the things that make it a better unit to cook on, rather than a better unit to last or look better?

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When cooking all night with 3 or 4 offset smokers going. Gives one the advantage of seeing the differences. Some offsets burned twice as many splits as the Shirleys and Langs. When comparing comparable sizes. And using the same wood pile for all the offsets.
What set the Shirley's as easier to use. More stable temps. Less fussing with the fire. Not having to adjust the firebox door once set.
The Shirley's I've cooked on I never had to raise/lower the tongue to get the reverse flow to start flowing. Had to a few times on Langs. Not a big deal to any of it. Shirley's have been more set it forget it. Just toss in splits when required. A slight difference in how even they cook across the grates.
Bad weather cooking. Langs required opening the firebox door at times to keep the fire burning properly. The side intake vents do not work as well as one single door intake. Just more having to tend the fire more when using Langs. I will say the Lang quality of fit and finish is ok. Just not as nice as Shirley.
A couple examples.

Hey Zach, I'm trying to remember the older name of your business. I'm retired from WI and think a couple of our engineers moved there (Thomas?). Lived in Evansdale for 37 yrs before moving down to S. IA.
Anyway, Shagdog just answered your needs list, very sound idea!
I know exactly how you feel about excellent quality down the road VS instant gratification from Lang. When I built my garage the window facing the deck was out of plum by .75 in and it showed in the way the siding was installed. No one but me was ever aware of it, but I could not look at it without being pi**ed.
Ed

Bigpappa1 said:

One big question for you: do you think that really does anything to add flavor? That is something that could sway my decision. I know Ben Lang sings that song, but I haven't heard it backed up by anyone else, at least not yet.

B

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If you are referring to the Baffle Plate I don't know if it really has any effect on the flavor of the finished product. Nowadays I have been cooking in pans which saves a ton of work as the cleanup is minimal.

I do love my Langs and they certainly get the job done,
but the Shirley is a work of art in so far as fit and finish go.

Good luck with your choice.

Bigpappa1 said:

I had narrowed it down to three or four pit makers, and then sort of drilled down to two of those. Ideally, I would be choosing between a Lang or a Shirley.

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Personally, I don't think they are competitive with each other. Langs of many years ago were higher quality and priced better (in relative terms for the time) then they are today IMHO. Welds can be an issue and the warming box size is a real issue depending on what you want to do with it because of the economics of scrimping on steel with inside dimensions of the box. That being said, if the size and dimensions are not an issue for you, the Langs will cook well.

The Shirley's just don't cut any corners that are visible to most owners. Whether it is dimensions for warming boxes, cook chamber size or shelf spacing, etc. The welds set a high standard that is not matched by many smoker builders and, those that do or can cost thousands more. Then there are the well thought out details missing on most of the competition like the axles and tires (yes, I know it's a smoker but, I don't want to hire a moving company every time I need to relocate it to a different spot on the patio). They even put zerks in the hinges for a bit of oil so they move easily over time and don't get stiff and noisy.

Bigpappa1 said:

My Needs
I have two children, maybe a third on the way, and then my wife and I. I like to cook for a crowd between 1 and 4 times a year, but nothing huge. I don't want to "under-buy", but I also don't need a huge smoker sitting around that gets 1 rack of ribs and a chicken put on it 95% of the time. I'm targeting a 24 - or maybe a 20 - by 36". One thing I do want is a warming box on top of the firebox with a damper in between so that I can get it hot enough to cook poultry. I know I can do this on my grill while I'm smoking, but part of this investment is wanting to have one unit I can roll out, fire up, and have some fun with. I work in industrial automation, which includes robotic welding. We also have a fab shop at my work. I know, I know, I could build one. The fact is I have two little kids and a demanding job. I just don't have the time. Having the experience I have, though, leaves me very aware of manufacturing processes and quality. Wavy cut lines or ugly welds are something I notice almost immediately, and it bothers me. I want a good looking cooker that I'm proud to have in my driveway.

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With your budget, cook capacity needs and, professional expectations, a Shirley 24x36" patio model seems obvious!

Bigpappa1 said:

The Contenders
The top ones I have found are Shirley, Lang, Lonestar Grillz, and Pits by JJ. Shirley obviously has the edge for quality and looks. LSG and JJ are no slouch, though. One of the biggest things for me that sets these apart is their attention to finish. If you look at where the MCC meets the end cap, Shirley, LSG, and JJ all grind and polish that joint, making for a nice and smooth round-over. I REALLY like that. LSG's fit and finish seems to be just a slight touch better than JJ's, with Shirley being second to none. Lang, on the other hand, while being apparently very popular and reliable, seems to have some old-school manufacturing methods going on. I've seen up-close and personal videos where I see a firebox whose opening looks to have been cut by hand with a plasma torch. In this day and age I don't know why someone who has been around as long at Lang wouldn't be using at LEAST a CNC plasma, if not a CNC laser or hi-def plasma. The cuts are literally wavy, even on the dampers and such. I know the units work, that kind of thing just bugs me. The others seem to pay much more attention to this type of thing and I appreciate that. It makes me feel like every bit of my money is being used to the fullest.

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Shirley for the WIN!

Bigpappa1 said:

The Dilemma
Here's my issue...The Shirley 24x36 would easily be the front runner, but they aren't offering much for options on that unit in order to get it out the door quicker. I totally understand, it's just that this leaves me without a warmer box, OR a very expensive and long wait time to get the one I would target. LSG won't put a warmer box on their 20" units which, again, puts me in a higher price range than I would like and also with a huge cooker. JJ will do what I want and they are fairly reasonable on the price. This might be an option. He will drop a box on top of the firebox on a 20x30 or 20x36 which would be a good size fit. I don't need that warmer box to be huge or anything, two racks at 12x12 would be just fine for what I want. JJ does do reverse flow, though I get concerned that they do it as well as Lang or Shirley. Lang's units happen to fit the sizing game about just right with a 36 Deluxe. The cooking chamber is a good size and the warmer is where I want it without being too big or too small. The price is right, too. I do feel a hesitation with them based on the issues I mentioned above, but also because they just don't look like they are putting much investment into their marketing and image either. Again, it's part of my job so I notice this stuff, but when I see someone who doesn't use current pics on their website, has outdated info, and isn't using YouTube videos to showcase their product when everyone else in the industry is, I start to feel like they are just kind of out of touch. It makes me worry that they aren't up to date on the stuff that matters in the cooker as well. I'm located in Iowa, so I can't really see these units up close and personal. The YouTube videos really help me get a good eye on them. Everybody but Lang does a really good job at this, making someone like me feel much better about the purchase.

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Don't settle for your second choice because it delivers a little quicker or is a few hundred dollars less. The most expensive smoker you will ever buy is the one you buy to replace the one that didn't work as expected.

Bigpappa1 said:

Lang has a legendary following so it's also hard to doubt them.

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They built their reputation long ago. When was the last time they did anything really significant in terms of design updates?

Moberb, Austin Smokeworks, Johnson, etc. don't have strong social media followings because they don't need one! Langs have a large following and social media presence because they do!

Bigpappa1 said:

So while Lang has the right size and price, I'm not sure I feel the best about spending the money there. Shirley would be an easy front-runner, but I would have to decide if I can live without the warmer box, and I would really rather not. JJ will build what I want and probably within a range I could live with, though I would be ordering next year I think as it would run more than the $1,900 target. If they do reverse flow, which I am kind of becoming a fan of, I worry that they have that system down as well as the others.

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https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277598 This or something else the same size with a warmer box? No way! Shirley for the win! Pay attention to the comments about the firebox, and the accessories! Would I trade it for the same size cook chamber Lang and a free warmer box? NO WAY!

JJ, LSG, etc. all build smokers that will work well with a skilled hand at the firebox and cook chamber. However, after you spend ~$2K (or more with warming box), how are you going to feel starring at welds that aren't near perfection and cuts that aren't CNC perfect, door fits, etc. that work well but look a little off? I read Tyler has a new fancy plasma cutter inbound, or installed now, that is going to add capacity and capability to their already impressive shop. Will this shorten build times? Don't know but, it is a positive sign that things are moving forward in a positive direction and he isn't resting on his 'laurels'.

Bigpappa1 said:

So...how does this strike you all (assuming you were patient enough to read to the end)? Am I no to something? Does anyone else share my critique of Lang? Am I being silly? Does anyone have any experience with a JJ pit? I've seen some threads where guys say they are great, though I haven't seen any feedback on their RF.

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I'm almost to the end! :clap::blah::blabla::blah::twitch:

When I looked at JJ pits, I could see corners cut to save costs either in material or time. That's a fair trade-off for most people who are just looking for a solid pit and won't obsess over smaller details or worry about moving the pit - ever! You generally get what you pay for and JJ pits are cheaper than a lot of other pits built with similar capacities and steel quantities and quality.

Bigpappa1 said:

The reason this matters now is that if I do end up landing on the Shirley, I would want to put my order in with a deposit sooner than later and pay as I go until it's all done. They do offer this. Sorry for the long post, it's just so overwhelming when you pick out a new cooker and spend this much. I want this investment to last a long time.

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You may or may not realize it but, I think you answered your own question. Spec your Shirley, pay your deposit to lock your build slot/time, and start direct deposit payments to Tyler to pay it out when he projects your build will be complete.

"The fact is I have two little kids and a demanding job. I just don't have the time."

The very reason I bought a pellet cooker, Yoder, and no regrets

Bigpappa1 said:

Now I just have to decide if I want to go full bore and add in the warming cabinet and wait, or fire up the 24x36 right out of the gate. I really do like the look of that warming cabinet. However, Tyler gave me the dimensions and I have looked at pictures, and when it's added onto a cooker it just looks like sooooo much cooker. Again, I just want to do a chicken or a turkey or some wings in it at a higher temp.

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Buy a drum - Gateway, Hunsaker, OK Joes Bronco - and cook chicken/turkey to your heart's content.

Congrats on your decision to go with a Shirley!

Just like spec'ing out a Porsche, the options add up fast. The good news is you have time to pay things out, just like with a car or pickup. You can add a few things that aren't over the top without really effecting in a meaningful way what the cost difference is every month.

In the end, you have something that will bring joy and happiness into your life for years.

In my mom's case, I knew we hit a 'home run' when she made her coffee and went to the garage to drink it in the seat of her new Macan months after we brought it home. Whether 40K or 140K, it was money well spent considering the joy it brought her.

I just want to say what captured me the most about this post was knowing someone else is just as much an over analyzing long winded person as me [emoji1787]. But proof that This forum is an awesome group of folks, no one discouraged you at all. Lots of detailed, somewhat long replies. Anyway, looks like you have it worked out and plan to go with your gut. Get the one you want bro. Warmer and all. So what if it’s too big. So what If it’s extra space and 90% of the time you won’t need it. You still have your WSM plus you can Get a Webber kettle for small cooks over high heat. Look at it as an investment for the future. What you spend on it now won’t matter when you are still cooking on it for your kids high school and college graduations years from now. Plus...Kids and wives will spend your money with no hesitation, and the only thing you get out of the deal is to see them happy. At least your toy will benefit everyone around you. Treat yourself while you can bro... happy cooking!