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Old 04-19-2021, 10:39 AM   #1
pcchris
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Default A question for the brethren; Brine vs. Phosphate

Has anyone did a comparison on the common brine vs a phosphate injection?
what were your results.
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Old 04-19-2021, 11:52 AM   #2
JS-TX
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As far as moisture, I believe phosphates will typically allow for more moisture way deep in the meat (chicken) vs a brine. Most brines will lend basic flavors to the meat, like salt and hints of other flavors depending on how long the soak is. Phosphate based injection can lend all sorts of flavors to the meat, but when it comes to chicken the basic flavors of the brine is often more than enough to perk up the flavor. A good injection can provide great flavor but it's a real balancing act trying to get the flavors you want in there. For competitions many will do both.
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:05 PM   #3
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I have compared a curing brine with 10% pump (injection) that does not contain phosphates, with an injectable curing brine that does contain phosphates.

I have not used phosphates in any covering flavor brines but have made injectable flavor brines based on 10% of the weight of the meat that had phosphates.
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:41 PM   #4
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@thirdeye so you're saying you're just as happy with a brine over a phosphate?
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Old 04-19-2021, 03:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
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@thirdeye so you're saying you're just as happy with a brine over a phosphate?
No, I just explained the uses of phosphates I've tried, and was waiting for your next round of questions.

But to reply.... from my experience I like both brines and injections with phosphates because each result in more liquid on board. But I do different techniques with different cuts of meat. With chicken, pork chops or pork loin for example, I'm fine with any enhancement, but using phosphates hold the most liquid.

Are you considering a particular cut of meat?
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Old 04-19-2021, 06:04 PM   #6
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In my mind here is how you look at the difference:

- Liquid Brines are salt-based solutions allowing you to introduce moisture into protein via osmosis. The brine migrates from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration like the cell structure of your meat. My favorite applications for liquid brines are lean poultry and pork. Brining for too long can change the texture of your meat, especially in poultry creating an unpleasant rubbery texture. I shoot for one hour of brine time per pound of meat.

- Phosphate Injections encourage the cell structure of your protein to "hold on" to moisture. Inject two briskets side-by-side one with phosphates and one with just beef broth and see by weight which one retains more moisture. (Hint, beef broth dribbles right out) I only inject phosphate solutions like Butcher's Prime or Kosmos Q into Brisket the night before I smoke it, mostly focused on the flat.

Hope that helps!
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Old 04-19-2021, 06:29 PM   #7
thirdeye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus2b View Post
In my mind here is how you look at the difference:

- Liquid Brines are salt-based solutions allowing you to introduce moisture into protein via osmosis. The brine migrates from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration like the cell structure of your meat. My favorite applications for liquid brines are lean poultry and pork. Brining for too long can change the texture of your meat, especially in poultry creating an unpleasant rubbery texture. I shoot for one hour of brine time per pound of meat.

- Phosphate Injections encourage the cell structure of your protein to "hold on" to moisture. Inject two briskets side-by-side one with phosphates and one with just beef broth and see by weight which one retains more moisture. (Hint, beef broth dribbles right out) I only inject phosphate solutions like Butcher's Prime or Kosmos Q into Brisket the night before I smoke it, mostly focused on the flat.

Hope that helps!
That is a good assessment. Texture change happens when there is strong brine and long brine times. Lite brines allow more control. Phosphates change the pH of the meat which allows the proteins to hold more liquid.

I've only used AmesPhos, but I would assume Butcher's or Kosmo's outsource the production of their phosphate products to a commercial manufacturer. Joe Ames was the developer of the FAB line of competition injections maybe 20 or 25 years ago, and it's probably responsible for all the future competition injection products.

I'm currently testing Big Poppa Smokers 'Cattle Prod' and 'Pork Prod' injections and having some really good results.
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