You would be incorrect based on what I learned when looking into changing the pork rule approximately 10 years ago.
Proposed pork rule change
- Thread starter Jorge
- Start date
You would be incorrect based on what I learned when looking into changing the pork rule approximately 10 years ago.
gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
What’s in a name? Label a collar a CT butt and it is 100% legal. An SRF pork collar purchased through food service channels is not called a pork collar like it is on the (marketing) website. It’s called a CT butt which was clarified to me as perfectly legal (because I thought the same as you)… further, they reached out to pork manufacturers and confirmed that a collar is not a regulated term (pure marketing BS like “extra tender”) meaning if you market it as a collar, it might possibly be illegal because of the advisory you mentioned? but call the exact same piece of meat a CT butt and it’s all gravy. Use away…. ready for a rule change yet?
The fact that I have cooked 300 contests and you have judged 300 contests and neither one of us knows what the rule really means with any confidence is testament enough. Can I trim it after inspection? There’s a rep advisory on that? Can I not? What does a rep advisory even mean? I mean it’s not IN the rules.
It honestly is a study in ridiculousness.
gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
And a collar from Snake River Farms or Prairie Fresh is 100% from the shoulder and 100% also a CT Butt. I have a business relationship with both of them and have 100% confirmed this with the manufacturers. They are therefore legal and commonly used in KCBS (as long as we call them CT butts).
A collar from some other producer may be something else from somewhere else on the animal and therefore illegal. I don’t know because I’ve only discussed it with the two and a collar is not a regulated USDA term…
A collar from some other producer may be something else from somewhere else on the animal and therefore illegal. I don’t know because I’ve only discussed it with the two and a collar is not a regulated USDA term…
I only have a couple of shops with full service meat cutters, one claimed pork collar is common in European meat markets and used for Capocollo in Italy and he thought the "CT" designation used in the US referred to 'custom trim' because it's not a cut that is listed in the NAMP guide of meat cuts. Another producer back East mentioned 'close trim' on their site. What do you think the CT stands for?
gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
No speculation. It means “cellar trimmed” as defined by NAMP/IMPS
407 - pork shoulder butt, cellar trimmed, boneless
407 - pork shoulder butt, cellar trimmed, boneless
Juggy D Beerman
Full Fledged Farker
History Repeats Itself
Yo to All, If my old crusty memory serves me correctly, up to and including the 1992 season,the pork category in KCBS competitions allowed any cut of pork as a legal entry. The only exception to this rule was that spare ribs and back ribs were not allowed to be submitted as a pork entry. These two rib cuts were only allowed to be submitted in the rib category. However, country style ribs that were cut from the loin area and contained the chine bone or back rib bone were allowed to be submitted as a rib entry. (Country style ribs cut from the shoulder section were not allowed as a rib entry, but back in these old times they were not a common cut of pork.) To add more confusion to the pork category, there was an unwritten rule that if you submitted loin cut country style ribs for your pork entry, you were not allowed to enter those same cut ribs as your pork entry. Our team once took fifth in pork at the 1990 Royal with loin cut country style ribs.
Other than the exclusion of spare and back ribs, the pork category was pretty wide open. Most teams submitted loin cuts either as slices from the loin roast or chops. Slices of the true/inner tenderloin were another item that was another popular entry. There were a few teams submitting shoulder cuts, Some teams cooked the shoulders whole and submitted either sliced or pulled entries. There were even pork steaks submitted as legal entries.
In 1993 there were several rule changes and the pork category was one of them. One of the main reasons given to the teams for the rules changes defining a legal pork entry was the BOD felt that the judges were making comparisons and contrasts of the different cuts to the entries of the same category as in loin cuts vs shoulder cuts that were on the same judging table. There was a perception that some judges preferred one cut over the other cut. (We still see that notion today with the spares vs back ribs for submission.) The BOD felt is was more fair for every team to submit meat cut from the same area of the hog.
Another reason given for the rule change was that the loin chops and pork chops teams submitted did not have the degree of difficulty of cooking as a pork shoulder/picnic cut. Pork chops and steaks can be grilled in less than an hour where as cooking a five pound or greater weight shoulder cut was a more traditional BBQ item that took longer to cook. There were some other reasons given to the teams for the change, but these were the main two that I recall.
Another big rule change occurred in 1993. Prior to this year, there were two divisions in the contest, Amateur and Professional. A professional team was defined as a team who had a member who derived monies from BBQ. This included someone who sold BBQ supplies such as smoking woods, rubs, sauces, grills, smokers and other BBQ related items. People who cooked professionally or owned restaurants or catered were also included as professionals. There were other parameters that would designate someone as a professional, but this was 30 years ago and I cannot remember everything......... If you did not have a team member who was a "pro", your team was in the amateur.
Here is how the contest worked. Every team, regardless of division followed the same rules. There were two judging tents, one for the professionals and one for the amateurs. Each division had its own category winners, but the overall contest winner was the team that had the highest overall score, regardless of its division. For the most part, there was not a big difference in the number of teams in either division. If there was a difference, there were usually more amateur teams competing than professional teams.
This all changed for 1993 season, The divisions were all combined and each team were then deemed as competing against each other, It should be noted during these times and up until about 2003, the various KCBS contests across the country could have more than the standard four categories count towards the Grand Champion. For instance, the Royal had six categories for grand champion, Besides the big four, there was lamb and sausage. The lamb category was dropped at the Royal before 2003 as they were having trouble finding enough judges who liked lamb.
When the BOD did restrict the criteria for GC to the big four categories of chicken, ribs, pork and brisket, there were several contests that were grandfathered in to include a category that was a traditional category at that contest, Two contests that come to mind are Kearney, MO with turkey and Tryon, SC with whole hog. I believe there were two other contests that were grandfathered in with a fifth required category, but I cannot recall those contests. I am not sure if that grandfather clause still applies.
So there is your history lesson for the day........... There will be no quiz given on this lesson and if there is, there will be no math involved. And that is a shame as I am good at math. I am not one of those four out of three people who cannot do fractions.
Lager,
Juggy D Beerman
Yo to All, If my old crusty memory serves me correctly, up to and including the 1992 season,the pork category in KCBS competitions allowed any cut of pork as a legal entry. The only exception to this rule was that spare ribs and back ribs were not allowed to be submitted as a pork entry. These two rib cuts were only allowed to be submitted in the rib category. However, country style ribs that were cut from the loin area and contained the chine bone or back rib bone were allowed to be submitted as a rib entry. (Country style ribs cut from the shoulder section were not allowed as a rib entry, but back in these old times they were not a common cut of pork.) To add more confusion to the pork category, there was an unwritten rule that if you submitted loin cut country style ribs for your pork entry, you were not allowed to enter those same cut ribs as your pork entry. Our team once took fifth in pork at the 1990 Royal with loin cut country style ribs.
Other than the exclusion of spare and back ribs, the pork category was pretty wide open. Most teams submitted loin cuts either as slices from the loin roast or chops. Slices of the true/inner tenderloin were another item that was another popular entry. There were a few teams submitting shoulder cuts, Some teams cooked the shoulders whole and submitted either sliced or pulled entries. There were even pork steaks submitted as legal entries.
In 1993 there were several rule changes and the pork category was one of them. One of the main reasons given to the teams for the rules changes defining a legal pork entry was the BOD felt that the judges were making comparisons and contrasts of the different cuts to the entries of the same category as in loin cuts vs shoulder cuts that were on the same judging table. There was a perception that some judges preferred one cut over the other cut. (We still see that notion today with the spares vs back ribs for submission.) The BOD felt is was more fair for every team to submit meat cut from the same area of the hog.
Another reason given for the rule change was that the loin chops and pork chops teams submitted did not have the degree of difficulty of cooking as a pork shoulder/picnic cut. Pork chops and steaks can be grilled in less than an hour where as cooking a five pound or greater weight shoulder cut was a more traditional BBQ item that took longer to cook. There were some other reasons given to the teams for the change, but these were the main two that I recall.
Another big rule change occurred in 1993. Prior to this year, there were two divisions in the contest, Amateur and Professional. A professional team was defined as a team who had a member who derived monies from BBQ. This included someone who sold BBQ supplies such as smoking woods, rubs, sauces, grills, smokers and other BBQ related items. People who cooked professionally or owned restaurants or catered were also included as professionals. There were other parameters that would designate someone as a professional, but this was 30 years ago and I cannot remember everything......... If you did not have a team member who was a "pro", your team was in the amateur.
Here is how the contest worked. Every team, regardless of division followed the same rules. There were two judging tents, one for the professionals and one for the amateurs. Each division had its own category winners, but the overall contest winner was the team that had the highest overall score, regardless of its division. For the most part, there was not a big difference in the number of teams in either division. If there was a difference, there were usually more amateur teams competing than professional teams.
This all changed for 1993 season, The divisions were all combined and each team were then deemed as competing against each other, It should be noted during these times and up until about 2003, the various KCBS contests across the country could have more than the standard four categories count towards the Grand Champion. For instance, the Royal had six categories for grand champion, Besides the big four, there was lamb and sausage. The lamb category was dropped at the Royal before 2003 as they were having trouble finding enough judges who liked lamb.
When the BOD did restrict the criteria for GC to the big four categories of chicken, ribs, pork and brisket, there were several contests that were grandfathered in to include a category that was a traditional category at that contest, Two contests that come to mind are Kearney, MO with turkey and Tryon, SC with whole hog. I believe there were two other contests that were grandfathered in with a fifth required category, but I cannot recall those contests. I am not sure if that grandfather clause still applies.
So there is your history lesson for the day........... There will be no quiz given on this lesson and if there is, there will be no math involved. And that is a shame as I am good at math. I am not one of those four out of three people who cannot do fractions.
Lager,
Juggy D Beerman
ModelMaker
Quintessential Chatty Farker
Well, and then there's that!!!
Ed
Ed
midwest_kc
is one Smokin' Farker
Which part would I be incorrect about?
a) If there were no weight requirements around today, no one would decide to implement a weight requirement in the way that it currently is (pork only)
or
B) adding a weight requirement to brisket is silly
My mistake. I misunderstood your point.
I've been practicing all weekend, so that I'll have a jump on you all.
Been experimenting cramming cellar into a muffin pan using a hydraulic press. Now I need to adopt that "to the field" so I can leave the press at home
Been experimenting cramming cellar into a muffin pan using a hydraulic press. Now I need to adopt that "to the field" so I can leave the press at home
Lard, no Parkay.
ModelMaker
Quintessential Chatty Farker
As I understand it "Rep Advisory" is a mid-season type rule to fix a problem without waiting for the next years inclusion into the rules.
The Rep advisory is indeed IN the rules and is enforceable after review by the BOD.
All Rep Advisories are listed on the KCBS website and every cook should be fully aware of them.
Ed
cowboyupbbq
is one Smokin' Farker
watertowerbbq
is Blowin Smoke!
I like the proposed rule change. It seems like teams are cooking butts that have the money muscle technically attached with butts that have been trimmed right down to 4 lbs just to meet the rule. They only really want the money muscle anyway and you can't really blame them because that is what it takes to win. I think it really helps the teams with less cooking area. You can cook 3 money muscles on the top shelf of a 18" WSM. It takes a lot more work to cook 3 pork butts on a 18" WSM.
No. The wording in the rules is "Country style ribs are prohibited". Which has double coverage.... loin back country ribs (like Juggy mentioned) or the sliced bone-in shoulder country ribs that are popular in my neck of the woods would both be an improper meat.
gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
Absolutely 100% false, I’ll cook a 4 pound pork collar (aka CT butt) this weekend to prove it.
I talked to the board member in charge of the rep committee about this very subject on Saturday at a contest. There are zero current rep advisories in effect for pork.
I am fully aware of the current rules. You’d think judges should hold themselves to the same standards.
Please email the board and get up to speed before spreading more misinformation.
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gettinbasted
is Blowin Smoke!
Also this idea that a cook should know an advisory issued in 2010 buried on the KCBS website somewhere behind a paywall is the definition of insanity.
A) you don’t need to be a KCBS member to cook.
B) if you go to a cooks meeting cooking your first event, they give you a copy of THE RULES. They don’t give you a copy of the rules and tell you to go read the last 35 years worth of rep advisories on the internet and figure out which ones still matter.
A) you don’t need to be a KCBS member to cook.
B) if you go to a cooks meeting cooking your first event, they give you a copy of THE RULES. They don’t give you a copy of the rules and tell you to go read the last 35 years worth of rep advisories on the internet and figure out which ones still matter.
The new rule as proposed doesn’t say that.
Loin back country style would be excluded, but sliced bone in shoulder country ribs, or even pork steaks would be fine as I read it.
