Money Muscle

Smokin Hoggz said:

No, that is not considered separated, that is trimmed. As long as the Butt is 4lbs at time of inspection you are good to go and trim the butt how you want, however after trimming it has to be cooked whole before you can separate it.

I really don't see the confusion with the rule. IMO, it's pretty cut and clear.

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I don't think there's much confusion because everyone understands the intent.

However, playing devil's advocate like pharp did above, is often times instructive. When does trimming become separating?
If I have a butt that measures 6lbs at inspection, I can trim off 5lbs of it and leave the money muscle and some bits of the other muscle attached and just cook that. Right? I haven't separated the money muscle completely from the other muscle and it weighed more than 4lbs at inspection.

NoNotTheDuo said:

I don't think there's much confusion because everyone understands the intent.

However, playing devil's advocate like pharp did above, is often times instructive. When does trimming become separating?
If I have a butt that measures 6lbs at inspection, I can trim off 5lbs of it and leave the money muscle and some bits of the other muscle attached and just cook that. Right? I haven't separated the money muscle completely from the other muscle and it weighed more than 4lbs at inspection.

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Correct, you could do that...........Trimming becomes separation when you have say a 6 lb butt at time of inspection, you then trim the butt into two pieces and cook both pieces, that would be separating before it's cooked. After the butt has been trimmed it has to be cooked whole(1 piece)

NoNotTheDuo said:

I don't think there's much confusion because everyone understands the intent.

However, playing devil's advocate like pharp did above, is often times instructive. When does trimming become separating?
If I have a butt that measures 6lbs at inspection, I can trim off 5lbs of it and leave the money muscle and some bits of the other muscle attached and just cook that. Right? I haven't separated the money muscle completely from the other muscle and it weighed more than 4lbs at inspection.

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This is a perfect example of how confusing the rule is. I think most reps would DQ for trimming it down to just over 1 pound of money muscle plus a few extra bits, and they can DQ you for it because rule #1 is the the rep's interpretation is always right. It seems like trimming down to 1 pound +/- goes against the intent of the rule.

I really don't know where trimming ends and separating begins. if the only difference between the two is whether the removed portions gets cooked or not that seems odd. I could bring 6 butts to a contest, trim 3 down to the money muscle + extra bits (discard the rest) then take 3 other butts and trim off everything except the bacon, horn or whatever I want to use for pulled (discard the rest) and it is not considered separating?


If any reps are reading this thread and can give an opinion that would be helpful.

pharp said:

I have always found this funny, that more people don't go back and forth about this rule.

According to how this is written, it needs to weigh 4 pounds at inspection but could weigh 4 oz when you put it on the pit.

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Just posted basically the same thing on the other thread before I saw this comment.

I agree. They also could make a point that they just trimmed everything but the money muscle off (after inspection, of course).

Or how about what does "cooked" mean. The assumed standard is the FDA rules, but it doesn't specify that's the case.

I can't believe that this hasn't been clarified over the years. I suppose since it hasn't been an issue it hasn't been on the radar of the rules committee, but I think they should act in order to avoid it ever becoming one.

egorham said:

This is a perfect example of how confusing the rule is. I think most reps would DQ for trimming it down to just over 1 pound of money muscle plus a few extra bits, and they can DQ you for it because rule #1 is the the rep's interpretation is always right. It seems like trimming down to 1 pound +/- goes against the intent of the rule.

I really don't know where trimming ends and separating begins. if the only difference between the two is whether the removed portions gets cooked or not that seems odd. I could bring 6 butts to a contest, trim 3 down to the money muscle + extra bits (discard the rest) then take 3 other butts and trim off everything except the bacon, horn or whatever I want to use for pulled (discard the rest) and it is not considered separating?


If any reps are reading this thread and can give an opinion that would be helpful.

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The rule really isn't confusing, but mine or yours or the reps choosing to interpret "intent" is the problem.

By the letter you just have to show up with a piece of pork butt that is 4 pounds. Then you can put however much of that four pounds on the smoker, but you can't alter that piece of meat once it hits the smoker until it is "cooked" which is also not defined.

I also feel like the intent of the rule was for people to show up with a four pound piece of pork butt and put all four pounds on the smoker and not alter (separate) it until it is cooked. However, the fact that the rule hasn't been altered leads me to believe the powers that be have no issue with the way that it is written...which is also fine with me.

Here is a copy of the KCBS Member Survey a couple of years ago. So there was at least some conversation regarding the wording.

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The Rules Committee has discussed possibly recommending a change to the Pork rule and would like your preference of the following.

1. Leave as is: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, once cooked, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook’s discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

2. Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection and at no time after inspection shall the cut weigh less than 4 pounds at the time the cut is placed on the pit and the cooking process has begun. Once cooked to an internal temperature of 145 degrees in the thickest part of the cut, it may be separated and returned to the cooker at the cook’s discretion. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

3. Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

4. Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Boston Roast, Picnic and/or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of four (4) pounds at the time of inspection. After trimming, pork shall be cooked whole (bone in or bone out), however, it may not be separated. It may be turned in chopped, pulled, chunked, sliced or a combination of any of those.

I remember that now....I believe I voted for 3, but I also think 2 is what KCBS intends with the rule, despite how it's worded now.

It would be easy to change the wording to “weighing a minimum of 4 lbs when starting the cooking process”

I also agree pretty much everyone interprets the current rule to be this way, but I can see issues if someone really wanted to push the subject.

pharp said:

I have always found this funny, that more people don't go back and forth about this rule.

According to how this is written, it needs to weigh 4 pounds at inspection but could weigh 4 oz when you put it on the pit.

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There was a rep advisory issued that clarified you cannot do that as they would consider it "parting".

Rusty Kettle said:

Plus one other question does it matter where I take the temp of the butt to call it cooked? I dont think it says in the rule you need to temp it in the thickest part.

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That's the part that is not completely clear to me. I assume the piece you take off needs to be 145. So if my MM is 160 and the rest of the butt is 120, I am fine to remove the MM. Does the remaining butt that is not completely cooked still need to weigh 4 pounds? If that were the case, you would not want to trim down below about 6 pounds.

The rule seems fairly straightforward, albeit poorly written, if you aren't removing meat during the cook. But I think most of us do.

ClaytonSmoke said:

That's the part that is not completely clear to me. I assume the piece you take off needs to be 145. So if my MM is 160 and the rest of the butt is 120, I am fine to remove the MM. Does the remaining butt that is not completely cooked still need to weigh 4 pounds? If that were the case, you would not want to trim down below about 6 pounds.

The rule seems fairly straightforward, albeit poorly written, if you aren't removing meat during the cook. But I think most of us do.

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Yeah I don't know. I always assumed the same that the piece you remove needs to register at 145 or above.
I would say if you are worried ask whoever is the kcbs rep at the contests your cooking what they think as its the reps that make the final call.
I had to ask a rep how they understood the rules before. Not a big deal. Anytime I have had questions they have all been very helpful.

pharp said:

I have always found this funny, that more people don't go back and forth about this rule.

According to how this is written, it needs to weigh 4 pounds at inspection but could weigh 4 oz when you put it on the pit.

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tduffy said:

There was a rep advisory issued that clarified you cannot do that as they would consider it "parting".

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I have been searching the KCBS site for this rep advisory and I can't find it. I wonder if it was withdrawn or deleted

Slamdunkpro said:

I have been searching the KCBS site for this rep advisory and I can't find it. I wonder if it was withdrawn or deleted

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Log into your account. In the middle of the page there is a section called "member menu" select the resources tab then go to rules and regulations. The advisory is the last item on the rules and regulations page.


That is where it is located but it appears that the pork rule clarification is missing.

egorham said:

That is where it is located but it appears that the pork rule clarification is missing.

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Exactly

The funny part to me is that the rule is virtually impossible to enforce. The reps are not around when you put the meat on the pit and they don't walk around with scales and thermometers. Its supposed to be on the honor system but not everyone is honorable. Another competitor might see something but how can they prove it? Even that has a rare chance since most teams have trailers or tents with walls. I choose to try to play by the intent of the rules but since it is poorly written and unenforceable, I don't have a problem with how you do it.

here is what's weird to me....years ago when I first got into comp cooking I remember meeting folks and over and over being told, "bbq folks are the best, they will give you the shirt off their back....if you ever need anything at a comp just ask another BBQ person, they always help".

and you know what, my experiences have shown that comment above rings true everywhere. I have seen folks go out of their way to help me, or another team with whatever they can....I have gotten to be a part of helping others myself. I have seen more experienced cooks sit and talk with lesser experienced cooks and try to help them cook better......even though they are actually competing against the person they are helping.

so if we are all, or most all of us, these great fun loving dudes that will do anything to help one another, all the way down to sharing cooking strategies at a comp, then why does anyone want to "push the rules" to gain advantages that almost anyone can see was never the intent of what the rule was intended to make sure happens?

in other words, i think anyone with common sense knows what the 4 pound rule and not separating actually means and the #2 above really lays it out to be what I think most of us thinks it means.......so why does anyone want to pick it apart and seek an unfair advantage if all us BBQ folks are as wonderful as we think we are?

I know I know, one word.......MONEY.

but if it were that simple, then nobody would loan anyone aluminum foil when they need it, or garbage bags, or water hose rubber seals when one breaks or gets lost, or let them borrow butter, or show them what rubs they use, or talk about how they trim their meat, or what temps they take their food off at, or what strategies do they embrace for resting meat, or how they build their boxes etc........yet, at a comp I have seen those things shared over and over again. so if it was just about money, then nobody would ever help anyone.....because every person you help you are potentially helping someone who could wind up beating you.

sometimes I think we can all get caught up in picking fly **** out of pepper.

a wise man once told me, "don't get into comp bbq for the money, do it because you love to do it".....and that is how I do it.....I do want to incorporate all the strategies I can within reason to do better than my competitors but pushing rules to their limit because they were written a certain way that leaves them a little ambiguous has never been my bag. I try to not over think it. and i try to not push things and stay in the wide part of the road so i don't wind up in the weeds.

Just in case anyone is seriously considering cooking pork weighing less than 4 lbs between inspection and the meat reaching a temp of 145, you might want to run that by your Rep first.

On the other hand, if you really believe it's legal and think you can get away with it announce to the world when and where you are going to try it.:razz: