KCBS ToY

You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.
 
Bubba said:
You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.
Click to expand...

A true ToY program would count all of a teams comps not just the 10 best. Right now the ToY is pretty much of a game of those top 50 - 100 teams so if it was true and counted everything it would be a game of the top 10 teams.

Mike Peters had some numbers in the last meeting that were very interesting.

There are still contests to be competed in but as of this listing,

30+ contests - 10 teams
25-29 contests - 9 teams
20-24 contests - 26 teams
15-19 contests - 51 teams
11-14 contests - 95 teams
10 contests - 26 teams
9 contests - 55 teams
8 contests - 48 teams
7 contests - 58 teams
6 contests - 58 teams
5 contests - 44 teams
Click to expand...
 
Bubba said:
You cannot have a true form of TOY unless each team competes against each other in a set number of contests where you count all finishes. The way KCBS does it now just rewards teams that cook all the time. There has to be a better way of doing this.
Click to expand...

And that would be?
 
Rich Parker said:
A true ToY program would count all of a teams comps not just the 10 best. Right now the ToY is pretty much of a game of those top 50 - 100 teams so if it was true and counted everything it would be a game of the top 10 teams.

Mike Peters had some numbers in the last meeting that were very interesting.
Click to expand...
Interesting numbers. As team that has cooked 5 contests the last two years I'm in the camp of show us some rankings that have meaning to the majority of KCBS. How do we stack up against 1. Everyone 2. similar teams (rankings for teams that compete in 20+, 10+, 5+, etc).

For the TOY race hypothetically which would be the better team the one that cooked 13 contests and GC'd 10 of them or the team that cooked 32 contests and GC'd 11 times? I think there should be something in the system to account for the ratio of wins.
 
dhuffjr said:
Interesting numbers. As team that has cooked 5 contests the last two years I'm in the camp of show us some rankings that have meaning to the majority of KCBS. How do we stack up against 1. Everyone 2. similar teams (rankings for teams that compete in 20+, 10+, 5+, etc).

For the TOY race hypothetically which would be the better team the one that cooked 13 contests and GC'd 10 of them or the team that cooked 32 contests and GC'd 11 times? I think there should be something in the system to account for the ratio of wins.
Click to expand...

I agree there needs to be some changes to the program that get more teams involved but have no clue how they will do it. I would like to think that weighting a teams scores by the number of events they do would work but would than just hinder the teams that cook more events. Who knows changing this program will be a difficult task.
 
Rich Parker said:
I agree there needs to be some changes to the program that get more teams involved but have no clue how they will do it. I would like to think that weighting a teams scores by the number of events they do would work but would than just hinder the teams that cook more events. Who knows changing this program will be a difficult task.
Click to expand...

By limiting the score to 10 contests they are keeping it from completely being a pure endurance challenge of who has the most time/money to compete every weekend. The scenario I posed does leave open an interesting question. Maybe an 11th score that is some sort of formula to account for GC/RGC to competitions competed in ratio.

As far as ranking teams in other groupings, I don't necessarily think their needs to be a separate TOY award schedule for different categories but the ability to rank them so such teams can see how we stack up against similar teams would be great. That they presented the data you quoted shows they have the info and could produce it if they wanted to.
 
Just a quick review of the top 25 TOY teams according to KCBS and reviewed through COMP BBQ.com looking at the number of contests scored:

Contests / Teams / # of contests
More Than 40 1 team (41)
31-40 6 teams (31,32,33,34,34,39)
25 - 30 10 teams (25,26,26,26,27,27, 27, 27,29,30)
20-24 5 teams ( 22,23,23,24,21 )
less than 20 3 teams (19, 19, 16)

The top team went 41 times.
Only two teams in the top ten went less than 30 times and only one in the top five (26).

The three teams with less than twenty contests were all in the top twenty overall.

Don't know what it means, but it says something.
 
Unfortunately, not all contests are created equal. If you have a GC/contests ratio it will just lead to a much more careful selection process and point chasing teams will avoid each other (cherry pick). At least the current system is forcing them all to cook head to head this weekend. What point chasing team would cook the Royal Open? It would almost certainly hurt your ratio.
 
Add the results of the team's best 8 finishes. Then, teams that did lots of comps would still have the advantage of trying to up their total after 8 comps by scoring better than their 8th highest, but teams with fewer comps wouldn't be completely eliminated before the season began. Someone posted something similar above.
 
Until you have a competition circuit that has a set number of contests where all teams compete against each other and count all finishes you cannot have a true champion.
 
Bubba said:
Until you have a competition circuit that has a set number of contests where all teams compete against each other and count all finishes you cannot have a true champion.
Click to expand...

I for one would call any of the past ToY winners true champions as they worked their tales off for it and deserve it.

What changes do you think should occur to the ToY program that would increase participation and competitiveness?
 
Not sure there could ever be a consensus on how to compute ToY. I disagree with the way my USGA handicap is computed, but I have no doubt the USGA has a rational for it the same as the KCBS Board has a rational for the current ToY system. Probably numerous ways to do it, but someone has to decide. I'll bet the board has considered many different methods and has chosen this one, for now.

What about a Pro ToY for say __ (pick a number) and more contests and Semi Pro for less than than that? GC ToY and RGC ToY?
 
At the very least I would like to see a third column added to the TOY webpage that shows how many comps each team has participated in. For those of us that do less than 10, we could scroll down and see how we stack up against teams that have competed in the same # of comps.
 
ShencoSmoke said:
At the very least I would like to see a third column added to the TOY webpage that shows how many comps each team has participated in. For those of us that do less than 10, we could scroll down and see how we stack up against teams that have competed in the same # of comps.
Click to expand...

I like this idea. That way you could keep track and make sure all your points are accounted for. I took the time last week to add my points and a few didn't match up to KCBS standings. Don't get me wrong because I couldn't give a chit. But there was a bug in the system last summer were it didn't show me (and a few other teams) even competing in a few comps.
 
INmitch said:
I like this idea. That way you could keep track and make sure all your points are accounted for. I took the time last week to add my points and a few didn't match up to KCBS standings. Don't get me wrong because I couldn't give a chit. But there was a bug in the system last summer were it didn't show me (and a few other teams) even competing in a few comps.
Click to expand...

Yep, before they started tracking by kcbs # we were listed as 3 separate teams.
 
ShencoSmoke said:
Yep, before they started tracking by kcbs # we were listed as 3 separate teams.
Click to expand...

I think we are missing one also . It wont make much of a difference for us either other then some bragging rights here.
 
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