Plastice Wrap on Pork and Brisket

Mark said:

I see this thread was resurrected. :roll: I stand by my original statement that:
Quite possibly, smoking with plastic wrap is the dummest idea since using kitty litter in the water pan.

Or I could be full of $hit. Maybe next time I get a packer brisket, I'll just throw it in the smoker heavy duty plastic wrap and all. Whatcha say barbefunkoramaque? Good Idea?

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Straw man fallacies seem to be your expertise. In addition to trying to argue a point no one was making, you now are arguing a point based on an entire MATERIAL that no one has suggested using.

The plastic vac wrap is not the same thing as industrial clear film.

So in essence you hold on to your failing argument (I mean that respectfully mods) that Holding, Reheating, or finishing the cook in plastic wrap is the the same as smoking bbq in the smoker with the same wrap. And that Plastic wrap or film is the same as industrial vac wrap.

I will draw a parallel.. I hereby claim you know nothing about BBQ (which I do not believe personally) because I know I can prove you do not speak fluent latin.

Like I said... I use butchers paper.

In addition to the Brisket Packer material argument being unrelated due to its molecular design (they are chemically different) it would fail cogency as part of the BBQ process is to rub with spices and smoke.... to which you could not do without opening the package. Once again... funny, you make a double straw man fallacy by arguing your case with two premises that are not under scrutiny at all.... those premises being the "smoking process" and of course relating one product (which people are debating about) to another, which is pulled out of the blue and unrelated. Like Chicken and Brisket.

I merely draw a conclusion: Cooking with plastic wrap is dumb. And for a variety of reasons. You are free to disagree. I am free to ignore your taunts.

:-DTaunts? LOL Then do so. Ya Big Lump.

That was an endearment.

As far as reasons, I think the brethren would like an explanation of why its stupid or dumb. I gave a few reasons why its not, and mind you I don't even use it except in holding times.

If you are going to make a blanket statement like mopping is stupid, or foil is for suckers, hey, say why... then the other guys chime in with why its not and then people make up their minds.

My issue other than the propaganda regarding its safety, was that you cannot forward an argument "that it is dumb to use to smoke BBQ" when the concern was more about its use as a reheating and holding medium (in the smoker or out).

You could forward it by saying it is unhealthy because....... but site some more respectable data besides some "urban legends" site.

It is so sad that Dr. Edward Fujimoto the Manager of the Wellness and Lifestyle Medicine Department at Castle Medical Center in Hawaii has caused such an uproar with so little data to prove it. He mentioned this regarding molded clear plastic food trays and it has morphed into plastic wrap with not one shred of evidence to the contrary from a reputable source since it was uttered on January 23, 2002.

The urban legend site had some decent links. You didn't reseach them?

BTW Don: It seems to me you're just as guilty of making ultimatums:

e.g.: "Stop Mopping. Stoppit! Now!"

hmmmmm read post below

Issue One

Mark said:

The urban legend site had some decent links. You didn't reseach them?

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Apparently you did not read them yourself... read them closely and Mark you will realize that was the reason I gleefully thought the purpose of the link/links was to shed light on public IGNORANCE of the issue.


My favorite parts of your Link

"Studies - including the one initiated by high school student Claire Nelson (mentioned in one of the email texts above) — have shown that DEHA, when present, can migrate into food at high temperatures."

Okay so High school student says it can leech... let est. that as fact for a moment.

"Though it is not contained in Saran Wrap, it has been, and may still be, an ingredient in some other brands of plastic wrap."

By the way... its not in commercial grade film either. The films are made by most of the same companies.

"The current scientific consensus is that it is not, at least not in the minute amounts resulting from migration from plastics into foods."

"Even though DEHA has long been regarded as a possible human carcinogen, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency removed it from its list of toxic chemicals in the late 1990s after concluding, based on a review of the scientific evidence, that "it cannot reasonably be anticipated to cause cancer, teratogenic effects, immunotoxicity, neurotoxicity, gene mutations, liver, kidney, reproductive or developmental toxicity or other serious or irreversible chronic health effects."

Lets review... so far we have a study by a high school student that concludes that DEHA may leach into our food but its NOT in the plastic film we are talking about AND is probably not harmful.

Your LINKS Inside the link go on to show that studies from the U of Cincinnati (not a high school kid) show that BPA is also not in their product.

Here is my favorite one about the email which started this silliness (claim that fat and heat leached dioxins out of the plastic film.

"This e-mail claimed that the combination of fat, high heat and plastics releases dioxin into the food and ultimately into the cells of the body, thereby increasing the risk of producing cancerous cells. SC Johnson has researched these claims and it is clear that the information is not only misleading, but also unnecessarily alarms consumers.

When used in the microwave, there is no trace level migration of dioxins from any Saran
™ or Ziploc® product. We know this because these products are 100% dioxin-free."

So once again... no dioxins in the actual product... which is the same argument stated above in regards to the study by the high school chick.

This MYTH is spread much in the same way it had been introduced by you in this forum.

You linked it to us... a link you claim is about leaching dioxins into food... you use that as you premise that it is dumb BUT... failed to read it thoroughly enough to tell that for the most part it says the opposite.

Perhaps only this quote from the FDA, in a document written quite some time ago give a shred of question to the issue.

"Microwave plastic wraps, wax paper, cooking bags, parchment paper, and white microwave-safe paper towels should be safe to use. Do not let plastic wrap touch foods during microwaving."

I am not asking anyone to agree with me... but if you're going to spread conjecture... please read your own links for evidence to support it.

Even that you don't really have to do...

Issue Two

Your claim that I issue Ultimatums.

Once again I respectfully disagree based on definition.

One of the reasons why I mentioned "mopping" in this thread as an example of things people disagree about is that precise reason. In the Mopping thread the posters pretty much handled all the reasons why not to... I used something called "humor."

You will note at times I will be arbitrary but not without poking fun or parodying my own flexibility elsewhere. In Other posts I claim to to flexible in one matter but poke fun at my inflexibility in other areas.

Now, let's take that thread for example. I believe I was making a humorous statement both there and later in the thread where I said another way would be to essentially enter into your pit to mop so as to keep cold air from going in. I assumed everyone would see the humor (not necessarily think its funny) but at least see it was an attempt to make a silly. But hey, here is a place where I got someone all in a tizzy because I thought a specific group of BBQers should be frozen in liquid nitrogen. Here is the place someone took that seriously long ago.

No... what I mean is... hey, if its stupid or dumb to you, instead of linking it to an abstract document just tell us. I think its stupid and every bbq restaurateur from Allen Texas to Maine that has been using this for the last 30 or so years is stupid because.... ???????????????????????

Not a problem with the opinion... but I wanna know what the problem with using the film to reheat or finish cooking or holding is NOT... what the problem with SMOKING meat in plastic (which was not the claim) or using shrink vac plastic (which is not the same thing or being implied here).

Making Ultimatums---actually I did not make one in that sentence.

Ultimatum means a demand (backed up by a threat). Possibly, you could make a case that perhaps my exclamation point in the sentence you cut and pasted here expresses a threat of some kind due to it abruptness... but that would be a weak assumption.

Finally... and ultimatum would be...

"stop mopping now!!!!!! or I will dose violators in liquid nitrogen."

Truth be told neither you nor I offered an ultimatum here or in the post about mopping.

You made a claim... that was using plastic film to SMOKE meat is dumb.... there was no threat. So thus.... no ultimatum.

Good thread though and thanks for the opinions.

So much for ignoring my taunts huh? LOL

Don:

I got a little more time to respond today so here it is. Perhaps leading brands such as Saran Wrap are safe now if used properly. My concern is using off brands that may still contain harmful additives such as plastizers and/or uninformed misuse.

Here's a reputable link:
http://www.aerias.org/DesktopModules/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleId=60

Note the following:

Phthalates and the Types of Products They are Used In


I believe in a relatively minimalist approach in cooking. Consequently, I don't wrap. I think it's generally a waste of time and finite resources that end up as garbage. This is my personal choice and I don't intend to force such views on anyone else.

Another personal trait of mine is a general mistrust of agencies such as the EPA in safeguarding the public health. In my opinion, such agencies have often been shown to be too cozy with "industry" instead.

Also note my byline: "A thin line separates paranoia from an acute understanding of reality." I could be straying over that line a little here but then again, maybe not.

Mark - My Dear Friend and Brethren.

I sincerely mean that.

For one... what is funny, is neither of us habitually use this product. I do sometimes, actually increasingly so as my new ministry cooks a lot of things ahead of time because we can only smoke around 50 and freeze or cool about that much. But here we are arguing about something we don't use... you use foil and I use butcher paper. I think foil is hugely dangerous but that is another matter. But perhaps our debate will educate.


Now your new info you spend time on it great. Thanks for the contribution. This is what I call a well thought out premise. I was glad to read that. seriously

I agree with your thoughts on the EPA (I mentioned FDA in regards to safety and public information. Recently we have been experiencing limited governmental oversight where we desperately need it because politicians who think that Free Market theology is infallible (it is neither all good or all bad in my opinion) added a caveat to the "police themselves" theory in that it was thought that business owners would police themselves merely to avoid controversy and thereby lose their cookies should a health scare rise up. However, even Greenspan stated that his worst mistake was thinking big business would police itself.

In as far as the government the rule of thumb since the 80's is one way to combat regulation (even if it was passed into law) was to place cronies in at the heads of the various overseeing bodies that were friendly or came from the actual industry they were charged to protect. In addition, lowering budgets (of course not the salaries of said leaders) also reduced a body's capacity to enforce.

So yes I agree with your assertions about trust and the EPA or FDA as this case calls for but only in matters of nuance. The FDA had the stuff on its list.... but removed it as no real studies showed that dioxins did cause this damage after a 30 year call for scientist to come up with it. Furthermore, the main fact is that it simply is not in the product so we kind of are debating a moot point.

Dr. Fujimoto or whatever, was doing studies that included styrofoam... he cited his work was done in Hawaii where he worked then later when pressed for the study he said it was in Japan... when still pressed he said it was in Japaneese. So he is clearly out of the equation as a reputable source.


Now as a critic of your new info... its origin is here

http://www.aerias.org/DesktopModules/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleId=60

Now Aerias Primary goal is actually to protect air quality. Basically, it knocks just about EVERY plastic made out there. Why, because simply the actual making of the product is bad for our air. But you cannot make the public make the desision on their own as they honestly are busy living from day to day... so the goal here is if they attach a secondary problem to EVERY plastic out there... the theory is demand will go down and thereby reduce production and increase the quality of our air. So even (I can't believe I am saying this) well meaning institutions like this tend to only use one set of datum. I like this article because the references are included (though not that conclusive as most of the food related stuff is secondary sources at best [newpapers]).

So...

If I were you.... read this... it HUGELY supports your argument and also is well credentialed and primary, though dated.

http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/EDs-Plastic-Wraps-CU5jun98.htm

Good good letter.

Mark said:

Don:

I got a little more time to respond today so here it is. Perhaps leading brands such as Saran Wrap are safe now if used properly. My concern is using off brands that may still contain harmful additives such as plastizers and/or uninformed misuse.

Here's a reputable link:
http://www.aerias.org/DesktopModules/ArticleDetail.aspx?articleId=60

Note the following:

Phthalates and the Types of Products They are Used I

Di (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate [DEHP]: building products, food packaging, children's products and medical devices DEHP is added to PVC to make some soft, clingy wraps for commercial use. Consumer Reports tested 14 national and local brands of wrapped cheese for levels of plasticizers. The reason they chose cheese is that plasticizers are more likely to leach into fatty foods like cheese and hamburger. They found high levels of DEHP in the cheeses wrapped in deli cling wrap. People who eat several ounces of this cheese every day could get very high doses of DEHP that could possibly cause health problems. There were moderate levels of DEHP in some of the shrink-wrapped cheeses and in the waxed cheeses with plastic overwrap. There was little or no DEHP on individually wrapped slices of American cheese or blocks of cheddar in laminated foil wrap. Consumer Reports also tested plastic wrap. Of the seven national and store brands of plastic wrap they analyzed, only two contained any of the five plasticizers they were looking for. They reheated a cooked hamburger wrapped in those plastic wraps, but found just a little bit of the plasticizers had been absorbed where the patty was in contact with the wrap. In terms of the eight microwavable bowls from top manufacturers they examined, they found no plasticizers.​

I believe in a relatively minimalist approach in cooking. Consequently, I don't wrap. I think it's generally a waste of time and finite resources that end up as garbage. This is my personal choice and I don't intend to force such views on anyone else.

Another personal trait of mine is a general mistrust of agencies such as the EPA in safeguarding the public health. In my opinion, such agencies have often been shown to be too cozy with "industry" instead.

Also note my byline: "A thin line separates paranoia from an acute understanding of reality." I could be straying over that line a little here but then again, maybe not.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/EDs...s-CU5jun98.htm

BTW: I don't foil either. I have been known to place butts, briskets or whatever in a stainless steel food pan with a lid on top.

Mark said:

Thanks for the link http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/EDs...s-CU5jun98.htm

BTW: I don't foil either. I have been known to place butts, briskets or whatever in a stainless steel food pan with a lid on top.

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Chit, thats actually exactly my protocol 90 percent of the time. I usually group them in a big blob and I have these HUGE stainless pans that will hold quite a few briskets cuz I love to catch the juice. Typically, depending on how many I have and whether I am using the Brazos or the Meat Mamma, when I reach the stall I take the puppies which have cooked fat down, flip them in the pan fat up but place the others fat up on top. I find that the bottom layer (maybe 5 or s0) the flat gets softer from the juices, and the other layers get the same treatment because they are sitting on anothr leayer of fat under them from the lower layer, the last six go fat up also. Depending on how the cook is progessing these trays are placed in the hottest part of the smoker (sometimes I place another set of them on to cook on the part just cleared) and sometimes I will tent them tightly with butcher paper to help steam them. I just sorta tuck the edges in. I have even washed the paper down with a hose quickly to sorta make a ...oh i dunno... papermeche like stuff... at least a good sealed wet cap on those briskets of paper,water and grease. Paper is cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeppppp.

other than that, if i am doing a small order just a pan like you say and a lid.

Ohhhhhhh but the JUICE that is made.

one of the charities I work for has one of these huge 5 inch deep stainless pans with a spigot!!!! So you can get in there and drain out the juices (stopping before you get to the fat) and not disturb the briskets inside.

Sadly they all have rotesseries and never use it that way.

Perhaps the used butcher paper could be marketed as a high fiber tortilla?

lol









































oh my gosh the lego joke was funny. i feel so bad for laughing at it.

JPP, Right or wrong this is what I know. My wife was a head cook for @20 yrs and once a week they served Turkey on the menu, she always covered them with plastic wrap and baked at 350 with no problems. Nice juicy end product. She is licensed with Illinois state and was under strick government regulations always. Just my .02 worth.:grin:

Just Pulin' Pork said:

I have question on using plastic wrap on meat. What brand do you use when using plastic wrap as the initial wrap, followed by aluminum foil. Will any brand work or is there a particular kind I should buy. My biggest fear is having the plastic melt to the meat! Advise on this topic is much appreciated!

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Stop by Oklahoma Joe's and see if they'll tell you, they wrap the ribs. Me I bought the big box from Sam's

thats cuz u tha man Just

fnnm358 said:

the only time I use cling wrap is when I first do the rub and refrigerate, remove put on cooker and only foil when done.

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:thumb:

JD McGee said:

:thumb:

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Some say Aluminum had been linked to the early onslaught of Alzheimers

barbefunkoramaque said:

Some say Aluminum had been linked to the early onslaught of Alzheimers

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I can't remember where I heard that?