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ThomEmery
10-08-2010, 07:57 AM
Seeing on site done on TV has peaked my interest in this.

What impressions could you experienced on site presenting teams
or Judges offer on this style of BBQ Judging?

First does it seem impartial?
Judges have to be able to see around the "big name"

Thanks

Big Tom
10-08-2010, 08:40 AM
Thom, I've been on both sides of the table (so to speak) for this topic. MIM/MBN cook & presenter as well as a certified judge from MIM > MBN > MBN in that string of evolution.

From the perspective of a cook team the biggest pitfall to the onsite judging is the concern that the judges play favorites instead of judge the product and presentation. The contest reps and sanctioning body have difficult jobs of monitoring the judging and scoring process to ensure consitency and fairness to the cook teams.

The difficult side as a judge is trying not to get taken in by the social side because the friendships can be very strong. I have seen some less experienced judges almost in a starstruck daze the first time they walk up to the team, or the hog on the cooker.

I am a huge supporter of the "Memphis" style on-site judging, we cooked and won in those circuits until our team started losing members and the costs per person were too much for three members to afford. If that judging process could be modified to reduce some of the costs we would find a way to get back into that ring.

ThomEmery
10-08-2010, 09:01 AM
When you say costly
Is it the contest fees?
meat costs?
everything involved?

Bunny
10-08-2010, 09:11 AM
Seeing on site done on TV has peaked my interest in this.

What impressions could you experienced on site presenting teams
or Judges offer on this style of BBQ Judging?

First does it seem impartial?
Judges have to be able to see around the "big name"

Thanks

Thom,
It's definately not impartial, but it's who can BS the most. And it's a lot of fun. You do, however, have to present some pretty fine BBQ. That helps a whole bunch. But the camraderie between the judges and the cooks can make a big difference.

Bunny

chambersuac
10-08-2010, 10:16 AM
In on-site judging, is there a score for the person's presentation or is it still only the food that is judged. I know that the presentation might help "sell" the food, but wonder if there is a separate score for the way the cooks present (or B.S./whatever)?

ThomEmery
10-08-2010, 02:09 PM
There is a MBN cook in here with that answer

Sawdustguy
10-08-2010, 04:47 PM
Being a rather good bullchit artist (I sell electronic test and measurement equipment for a living), just ask my wife. I would love to give this a try. I have taken a zillion public speaking and presentation courses and given dozens of technical presentations throughout the years and would love to test what I have learned in a non technical athmosphere.

Sledneck
10-08-2010, 05:34 PM
never done an MBN but at the battle of the brethren a few years ago we did an onsite judging. It was entree/dessert. it was a lot of work but a lot of fun interacting with the judges. except for the 2 that gave me a 455 on a lasagna :)

Big Tom
10-08-2010, 06:37 PM
Thom, the costly part for us was the meats because of quantities required by the judging process. Example: 1 30# case of BB ribs (12 racks), 3 cases of 17# whole shoulders (3 shoulders / case) and a 120+ lb whole hog.

The nice part of the MBN is we didn't have to cook all the categories, we would usually cook two. Our plan was to cook the meat that was listed as the first category according to the schedule, for many years it was hog, it changed to shoulder over time as fewer people were cooking hogs. The last scheduled category has always been ribs. That gave us a good hour+ break between categories, since the presentation portion is very involved with the place settings and decorating the grill.


chambersuac, the judging process does include scores for the presentation and area and personal apperance. There are a total is six judging criteria that goes into the MBN process: presentation, area & personal apperance, apperance of entry (meat on grill or in blind box), tenderness, taste and overall impression. The last four criteria are shared with the blind entry for that category. The onsite and blind are judged simultaneously for each category.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-08-2010, 07:59 PM
Thom, the costly part for us was the meats because of quantities required by the judging process. Example: 1 30# case of BB ribs (12 racks), 3 cases of 17# whole shoulders (3 shoulders / case) and a 120+ lb whole hog.



Man I can see 12 racks of ribs but 9 whole shoulders?! Really? 3 seems excessive to me but I've never done MBN.

ThomEmery
10-08-2010, 10:11 PM
Wow that is a lot of meat

Spanx
10-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Our last MBN event we did all three categories and we had right at $700 worth of meat.

ThomEmery
10-08-2010, 10:49 PM
With the higher entry fees this would be a real hurdle

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-08-2010, 11:18 PM
Our last MBN event we did all three categories and we had right at $700 worth of meat.

I really want to do a MBN event because I think whole hog is the pinnacle of BBQ but there is no way I could handle that kinda expense on a regular basis.I thought the $500 total for a KCBS event was nuts.

Rich Parker
10-09-2010, 09:34 AM
Can someone explain to me why you need to cook so much meat at an MBN contest because i am confused? :confused:

From what i seen on TV you have a blind box, 3 onsite judges, and if you make finals 6 onsite judges. At least that is how it seemed to play out on TV.

As i type this i am understanding why you need 12 racks of ribs for 9 judges but 50lbs of pork shoulder seems like a lot. If you don't make finals you have the chance of coming home with 9+ racks of ribs, 20+ lbs of cooked pork, and that doesn't even count the whole hog.

WOW that is a lot of leftovers!

ThomEmery
10-09-2010, 10:04 AM
Good questions

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-09-2010, 10:19 AM
As i type this i am understanding why you need 12 racks of ribs for 9 judges but 50lbs of pork shoulder seems like a lot. If you don't make finals you have the chance of coming home with 9+ racks of ribs, 20+ lbs of cooked pork, and that doesn't even count the whole hog.

WOW that is a lot of leftovers!

If your cooking 3 cases of shoulders thats 150lbs of shoulder not 50!

Rich Parker
10-09-2010, 12:13 PM
If your cooking 3 cases of shoulders thats 150lbs of shoulder not 50!

Hahaha... I read it as 3 -17lbers. That makes it even more confusing to me.

I would love to cook an MBN contest someday but it doesn't sound possible to do alone or without some large cookers.

Has anyone here attempted it alone?

Big Tom
10-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Can someone explain to me why you need to cook so much meat at an MBN contest because i am confused? :confused:


The way the teams serve the judges is the reason for the quantities of meat. In shoulders we use one for each on-site judge (they each get to see the same tricks with bone removal and are served the prime pieces from the shoulder), instead of serving from a picked over shoulder. There is the potential to use a couple more in the building of the preliminary blind box. We are up to five in our count. leaving all the rest to use if needed in finals. Best case scenario we could pull the event off with two cases (six whole shoulders), things in BBQ rarely go best case though. We have the extras as contengency.

The case of ribs can also be barley enough. We can easily go through 4 racks building the blind box, we would then display at least 3 racks on the grill and serve a whole rack to each on-site judge. All the rest are reserved for finals where each of the four finals judges are served their own rack to sample any portion of the rack they choose.

Hog is the only one that is straight forward, one hog for preliminary and finals, cook a hog that is too small and there won't be enough to make it through the day. Some of the well funded teams will cook multiple hogs and pick their best.

We used case quantities only because our primary supplier is a wholesaler. We would sometimes buy multiple cases and pick & cull. Yes, there tend to be a lot of leftovers.

Gowan
10-10-2010, 10:18 PM
In my experience, Big Tom's assessment of meat quantities for MBN are accurate.

When I've cooked with Jack's Old South, the standard load has been a 160 lb+ hog, 16 racks of ribs and 10 shoulders. I personally like the drama of onsite judging, but it also increases the costs to compete. Additional expense in garnishments, table settings, and site decor are involved.

As for onsite judging being impartial - absolutely not. Some judges are affected by star power while others purposefully mark down teams they think "have won enough" or give artificially high marks to their friends. Since a single onsite judge often makes the difference between making the finals or not, who you draw for onsite judging in the prelims is critical to your success. I suppose this effect is no different from what happens in blind box judging but it is more obvious with fewer judges involved and having them sit right in front of you as they taste your food.

Disclaimer: Keep in mind that my comments are solely my own and not those of Myron or Jack's Old South. I do not participate in MBN contests frequently and should not be considered an expert on this format.

Yazoo's
10-11-2010, 08:00 AM
For a normal contest where we are entered into all three categories we cook 1- 150lb hog, 8 shoulders, 15 racks of ribs. Bear in mind that in an MBN style contest you can win Grand just cooking 1 category, and you do not have to cook this amount of meat. You could easily get away with cooking 5 shoulders and 7 or so racks of ribs. Our philosophy is we want to put the best product possible out there, so we cook as much as we possibly can in order to have our best product available.

Relative to onsite judges being impartial, it may appear that they are not. Typically however, at the end of the day the teams with the best meat win. Remember, we still turn in a blind box for each category, and you will not advance to finals without winning your blind table, just like KCBS. Do we think there is some degree of favoritism out there? Probably, but it works against you just like it can work for you- so it evens out in the end. The huge majority of judges we know are honest, nice people who can judge us and the guy cooking on a barrel grill next door and give them the best score if they deserve it. A lot of teams think the "big teams" get scored better because of their name. Most of the time, those teams get scored well because they cook a lot of contests and have their product on the money, just like Pellet Envy and Quau are pretty consistent winners in KCBS because they cook a lot and have seen what works and what doesn't. We recently had some cooker issues and had a rib that was not up to our standards. Came in next to last. If it was all about the set up, I would have expected at least a top 5 finish, but since its about the meat, we got hammered.
All scores are weighted also, Tenderness and Flavor are very highly weighted in your overall scoring while Area Appearance and Presentation are not very highly rated. Basically, if you look clean you get a 10. If you can tell the judge info on how you cooked the product you get a 10. It's not about the biggest rig or who's been on TV, its about the meat.

Remember too that MBN is COMPARATIVE. The judge scores your product against the other products they sample that day, not their "ideal" of what is good BBQ. If you are on a blind table with some brand new teams, your score may be artificially inflated. Likewise, if you land on a table with some very good products, you may get marked down. Luck of the draw.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-11-2010, 08:36 AM
For a normal contest where we are entered into all three categories we cook 1- 150lb hog, 8 shoulders, 15 racks of ribs. Bear in mind that in an MBN style contest you can win Grand just cooking 1 category, and you do not have to cook this amount of meat. You could easily get away with cooking 5 shoulders and 7 or so racks of ribs. Our philosophy is we want to put the best product possible out there, so we cook as much as we possibly can in order to have our best product available.

Relative to onsite judges being impartial, it may appear that they are not. Typically however, at the end of the day the teams with the best meat win. Remember, we still turn in a blind box for each category, and you will not advance to finals without winning your blind table, just like KCBS. Do we think there is some degree of favoritism out there? Probably, but it works against you just like it can work for you- so it evens out in the end. The huge majority of judges we know are honest, nice people who can judge us and the guy cooking on a barrel grill next door and give them the best score if they deserve it. A lot of teams think the "big teams" get scored better because of their name. Most of the time, those teams get scored well because they cook a lot of contests and have their product on the money, just like Pellet Envy and Quau are pretty consistent winners in KCBS because they cook a lot and have seen what works and what doesn't. We recently had some cooker issues and had a rib that was not up to our standards. Came in next to last. If it was all about the set up, I would have expected at least a top 5 finish, but since its about the meat, we got hammered.
All scores are weighted also, Tenderness and Flavor are very highly weighted in your overall scoring while Area Appearance and Presentation are not very highly rated. Basically, if you look clean you get a 10. If you can tell the judge info on how you cooked the product you get a 10. It's not about the biggest rig or who's been on TV, its about the meat.

Remember too that MBN is COMPARATIVE. The judge scores your product against the other products they sample that day, not their "ideal" of what is good BBQ. If you are on a blind table with some brand new teams, your score may be artificially inflated. Likewise, if you land on a table with some very good products, you may get marked down. Luck of the draw.

Good info. I'm really itching to do an MBN contest just to compete in whole hog. I think I would still need to win the lottery in order to do MBN on a regular basis.

dmprantz
10-11-2010, 09:45 AM
For Shoulders, I can give a bit of an example, but I am speaking for MIM. I am not 100% sure if every MBN comp is the same. You have to put meat in your blind box, that's 1 shoulder. Then for each on site judge, you want to present a brand new whole shoulder. That's three whole shoulders, where you might have a bite or two taken out of each one. Finally, you have to be prepared for final table. Now you only NEED one more shoulder for final table, but it's acceptable (and recommended by me) to have two so that you can get the most good meet, to share between three judges. While you're only "serving 5-6" whole shoulders right there, some people like to have a spare in case one isn't done in time or just doesn't look right, so 8-9 is common, especially if you have the cooker space. Most people will be taking everything after the first four home whole.

For ribs, I think it's very similar: 1-2 for blinds, and 3 for on sites, but you probably want some spares to pick out the best so figure 5-6 for on site. Then for final table you NEED at least three slabs, but I'd cook another 2-3 to make sure, so we are talking 6-13 to make sure you have enough. In either case you're taking plenty home.

Also remember that you need to be able to cook in two batches because final table is usually considerably later than initial judging. I'm honesly not sure how they do whole hog at MBN. I'll check that out next year.

dmp

Lake Dogs
10-11-2010, 12:08 PM
Thom, Rich, did they answer all the questions? Pete said it REALLY well. I can speak
to it more from a judges perspective, and Pete hit it pretty much dead on. One judge
may be star-struck, but the next one will be put off. I, personally, have judged the
big guys and the little guys, and frankly the difference has always been the meat, not
the glitz/glamor, or lack there in. I've given my 10 many times to Q that was served
on a chinette plate vs. the china of other teams. It was about the meat.

Cost, as we're a fledgling team getting ready to do our first MBN cookoff, I can tell
you that we're already many hundreds of dollars more into this contest that a KCBS
contest (MANY), and we're not doing whole hog. For hog, factor in another $300
or more (with extra entry fee's, etc). It'll cost me just shy of twice what it cost
me to do a KCBS comp. However, for KCBS we're lucky if we get a family/friend
to drop bye. We're expecting many to come this time, perhaps as many as 40. Some
are helping with ancillaries, but most will be around for support and to EAT. We're
cooking 9 (qty) 18 lbs pork shoulders and a case of BB's; I think we'll have a few leftovers.....

markpmc
10-11-2010, 12:23 PM
I've always assumed that the MBN teams were affiliated w/ restaurants or vendors so the extra meat got sold the following week.

Lake Dogs
10-11-2010, 12:33 PM
I've always assumed that the MBN teams were affiliated w/ restaurants or vendors so the extra meat got sold the following week.

A few vend, but otherwise I haven't seen any really associated with
restaurants. Watch the teams between 2pm and 6pm, there's quite
a bit of BBQ being handed out. Per rules, we can't sell it (at this contest).

Rich Parker
10-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Yes - I am thinking cooking only one of the meats would be the best way for the first timer.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-11-2010, 04:46 PM
Yes - I am thinking cooking only one of the meats would be the best way for the first timer.

I just realized I'd need 15 gallons of injection if I did MBN. wow.