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Jeff_in_KC
09-07-2010, 11:07 PM
Just curious if anyone has given any thought to holding BOBBQB contests in every state or at least every region. Could do a Brethren ToY as well. Not sure how to make it work but it was just a thought I had when I saw the banner for the PA contest.

Just Pulin' Pork
09-07-2010, 11:15 PM
You just did and you would do a hell of a job. Love the idea! GET ER DONE!:-D

Chenernator
09-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Great idea. Who's up for Vegas?

Sawdustguy
09-08-2010, 06:33 AM
Sounds like a new sanctioning body. I like the sound of BOBBQB better than the KCBS.

MilitantSquatter
09-08-2010, 06:41 AM
It's somewhat addressed here..

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1321909&postcount=88

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 07:41 AM
Not putting a negative spin on it but how would doing this improve comp BBQ? There are many more than qualified and established sanctioning bodies already out there that are doing an outstanding job.

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 08:26 AM
Be great to see multiple BotB contests nationwide. Hopefully, we can get several more in the 2011 season. First step is to get some out of area organizers to come on board and second to see what we can bring to the table to help them. At this point, it doesnt necessarily have to mean its additional or different sanctioning, but more of an established and proven footprint. I would think that can start with an ancillary event (like we did at BotB '09) and we move forward from there as it grows and gets established. Its open for discussion!

Cue's Your Daddy
09-08-2010, 09:12 AM
I think its a great idea. I think with the following that the Brethren has alot of people would probably step up to help out. I would be happy to help out in anyway that i can. I would actually be proud to help out. This Forum has helped me thru the years and i think has helped many people as well. With all the complaints that people have about the KCBS why would this be a bad thing. And to say that there are established and qualified sanctioning bodies out there i dont think is a reason to not trying to go forward with what is being discussed. What sanctioning bodies are nation wide other then KCBS? And it doesnt always mean that you have to be against a sanctioning body but you can always work WITH another sanctioning body to make something better.

Sawdustguy
09-08-2010, 11:40 AM
Not putting a negative spin on it but how would doing this improve comp BBQ? There are many more than qualified and established sanctioning bodies already out there that are doing an outstanding job.
Not for nuthin' Steve, but with all the developments at the KCBS, I would think that people would jump at the possibility of a true nationwide santioning body that has learned from the experiences, both good and bad of all the sanctioning bodies. I think the idea has merit and is worth pursuit. Why not create an organization that has learned from the caveats and triumphs of the past and is not geographically centralized? I have a feeling that the planning has been done and the infrastructure is ready to be put in place. I think the last piece of the puzzle is to get the Event Coordinators and Teams to buy in. If everyone is as abashed with the KCBS as they say they are, I think it is just a matter of time.

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 12:10 PM
Not for nuthin' Steve, but with all the developments at the KCBS, I would think that people would jump at the possibility of a true nationwide santioning body that has learned from the experiences, both good and bad of all the sanctioning bodies. I think the idea has merit and is worth pursuit. Why not create an organization that has learned from the caveats and triumphs of the past and is not geographically centralized? I have a feeling that the planning has been done and the infrastructure is ready to be put in place. I think the last piece of the puzzle is to get the Event Coordinators and Teams to buy in. If everyone is as abashed with the KCBS as they say they are, I think it is just a matter of time.

As a disclaimer I would like to state that I am not against this idea, I am just intereste din open discussion about it.

I dont see any "developments" that KCBS has made that has made them any worse. The only time that I hear bashing and questioning of KCBS and its practices is during the off-season(cabin fever?) Once the BBQ season starts most seem happy (with the exception of reps that get in SmokeInDaEyes way b4 turn in. I have doing KCBS contests for 5 years and to tell you the truth little has really changed for me.

Personally I dont think many organizers will change from KCBS. Am i Unhappy with KCBS? NO. WOuld I like to do a contest under a different sanctioning body ? Absolutely. That being said , over the past year I have spoken to numerous organizers of existing events as well as a few who are starting new events about using a different sanctioning body other than KCBS ( The alternate that I suggested was the FBA) They all basically had the same responses. That they didnt want to get away from KCBS, They were comfortable with the way they run the contests, worried that they would lose teams etc.

Cue's Your Daddy
09-08-2010, 12:15 PM
i dont know much about FBA, but do they have contest in other areas other then florida and are they trying to become more nationwide or do they want to be more regional.

big brother smoke
09-08-2010, 12:16 PM
I too am interested in this discussion. I would love to see BOtB in the Cali Central Coast to have maximum teams compete.

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 12:20 PM
i dont know much about FBA, but do they have contest in other areas other then florida and are they trying to become more nationwide or do they want to be more regional.

They currently sanction contests on Florida , Georgia, and Alabama. I cannot speak on behalf of them as far as expansions plans go. The current president is a member here , maybe he will chime in.

dmprantz
09-08-2010, 12:26 PM
I would love to have a BotB in the Nashville area, open to all TN teams. Not sure if it would be best to have it sanctioned by an existing body or non right now. I wouldn't deviate from KCBS unless it was going to be significantly different, but that's me. Lemme know if those happens!

dmp

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 12:38 PM
BothB events are KCBS Sanctioned events right now unless they cannot make sanctioning for whatever reason(Financial, 90 day deadline, different rules, etc). So the events can be sanctioned or unsanctioned. Sanctioning can be by ANY sanctioning body if an organizer wants it that way. I am of the school that sanctioning brings credibility and a level of comfort to a contest in the eyes of the teams. Again, what the future holds remains to be seen regarding "other" sanctioning compared to whats available today. :cool:

What we are working on is what WE can bring to the table to enhance a contest. What the future will hold is still on paper, but the current challenge is what value can we add to a contest or organizer to entice them. BotB 09 had the grilling challenge with onsite judging(and a specific rulebook) that was a huge hit, that can be a start as part of the footprint. Our strength is in our networking, and i am just today talking with some national advertisers who may be interested in adding prizes to the contests.

Good discussion.. Id like to hear more input. (Especially from organizers) :becky:

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 12:45 PM
All depend on how its labeled and perceived as well. I know that I have heard from many teams in the past that they thought the long island contest "the battle of the bbq brethren" was only for brethren members. At New Holland a few people who had seen the banner up top for raystown asked the same question when it was changed to Botb/PA.If i werent in "the know" I might be confused as well

Scottie
09-08-2010, 01:03 PM
All depend on how its labeled and perceived as well. I know that I have heard from many teams in the past that they thought the long island contest "the battle of the bbq brethren" was only for brethren members. At New Holland a few people who had seen the banner up top for raystown asked the same question when it was changed to Botb/PA.If i werent in "the know" I might be confused as well

Can you define "might"?...

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 01:10 PM
Can you define "might"?...

—used in auxiliary function to express permission, liberty, probability, possibility in the past <the president might do nothing without the board's consent> or a present condition contrary to fact <if you were older you might understand> or less probability or possibility than may <might get there before it rains> or as a polite alternative to may <might I ask who is calling> or to ought or should <you might at least apologize>

dmprantz
09-08-2010, 01:23 PM
Maybe a big question is who is the audience? Are the BotB comps supposed to attract the brethren who are world champions and compete weekly, or is it to attract some of the Q Talk folks who just make good Q to see who makes the best?

dmp

Rub
09-08-2010, 01:36 PM
They currently sanction contests on Florida , Georgia, and Alabama. I cannot speak on behalf of them as far as expansions plans go. The current president is a member here , maybe he will chime in.
We are always open to expansion requests. We have sanctioned contests in AL, FL, GA, TN, and the country of Panama. There is typically a little extra expense involved with the first contest as we train Reps and judges to our system, but generally speaking, once in place you're good to go. We have discussed this in the past on the BOD and we're set to mobilize :phone:

Signed,
The prez...

ThomEmery
09-08-2010, 01:53 PM
I would like to do a B of the B in California

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 02:00 PM
Maybe a big question is who is the audience? Are the BotB comps supposed to attract the brethren who are world champions and compete weekly, or is it to attract some of the Q Talk folks who just make good Q to see who makes the best?

dmp


We would do all.. Shade tree/Backyard events are another thing on the books. 1 day chicken and rib events, or full blown 2 day BBQ events with only those new to competition cooking.. as well as standard 2 day events open to all. This would be up to organizers.

motoeric
09-08-2010, 03:01 PM
I believe that it's important to note that a Battle of the BBQ Brethren event (or even just a 'BBQ Brethren' event) does not preclude any sanctioning by any sanctioning body.

There needs to be a clear statement of what a BBQ Brethren event is and then move from there.

It would seem to me that if Phil was comfortable in the belief that an event would meet the criteria of what a BBQ Brethren event should be and is comfortable enough with the organizers to entrust them with the name of the Brethren, then discussions could take place based on that level of trust.

So, what does it mean to have a 'BBQ Brethren' contest?

To me, it would mean:

1) Possible inclusion of onsite judging.
2) Linking the event to a charitable fundraiser.
3) Having a quantifiable level of dedication to the ideals of the Brethren (whether through an onsite mentoring program, classes/demos for the public, or outstanding efforts to be 'team friendly'). Some facet of the event embodying the raison d'etre 'From the Backyard to the American Royal'

It goes without saying that Phil would be the final arbiter, but what would an ideal 'BBQ Brethren' contest be to you?


Eric

Muzzlebrake
09-08-2010, 03:11 PM
What exactly would a "BOTB" title bring to an event especially an established event? If it's not going to be the sanctioning body or the organizer what would it bring to the table that would it make it attractive to either an organizer or a competitor?

SmokeInDaEye
09-08-2010, 03:20 PM
Ideally it could develop into a series ala the Empire State to conclude each year with an invitational for that year's GCs with prizes for invitational to be subsidized by sponsors of the entire series. That alone would make it enticing to a lot of teams I would think, plus contest logos, web design, flyers, t-shirts, press outreach and other overhead should be much lower since your basically creating templates that can be customized per market.

If you owned BattleOfTheBBQBrethren.com (or BoBBqBattle.com), upcoming contests, rules, results, photos, videos, etc. could all live there.

Muzzlebrake
09-08-2010, 03:32 PM
Some facet of the event embodying the raison d'etre 'From the Backyard to the American Royal'

Eric

Huh? WTF
lol:confused:

Sawdustguy
09-08-2010, 03:38 PM
raison d'etre

Eric, you will have to define that phrase for us Polocks

motoeric
09-08-2010, 03:39 PM
Huh? WTF
lol:confused:

I'm spitballing as much as anyone, but I'd like to see some part of any BBQ Brethren labeled event geared towards helping BBQ enthusiasts of any level up their game a bit.

Maybe a seminar on how to make rubs or what to look for in different cuts of meat.


Eric

Sawdustguy
09-08-2010, 03:42 PM
So, what does it mean to have a 'BBQ Brethren' contest?

To me, it would mean:

1) Possible inclusion of onsite judging.


If an organizer bought into the concept of a BOBBQB event, would the KCBS buy into having onsite judging for the four main catagories if the Organizer wanted KCBS sanctioning also?

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 03:59 PM
What exactly would a "BOTB" title bring to an event especially an established event? If it's not going to be the sanctioning body or the organizer what would it bring to the table that would it make it attractive to either an organizer or a competitor?

Where did I hear that? :confused:


Oh.. here it is. :becky::clap2:



What we are working on is what WE can bring to the table to enhance a contest. What the future will hold is still on paper, but the current challenge is what value can we add to a contest or organizer to entice them. BotB 09 had the grilling challenge with onsite judging(and a specific rulebook) that was a huge hit, that can be a start as part of the footprint. Our strength is in our networking, and i am just today talking with some national advertisers who may be interested in adding prizes to the contests.

Good discussion.. Id like to hear more input. (Especially from organizers) :becky:



Ideally it could develop into a series ala the Empire State to conclude each year with an invitational for that year's GCs with prizes for invitational to be subsidized by sponsors of the entire series. That alone would make it enticing to a lot of teams I would think, plus contest logos, web design, flyers, t-shirts, press outreach and other overhead should be much lower since your basically creating templates that can be customized per market.

If you owned http://www.BattleOfTheBBQBrethren.com (or BoBBqBattle.com), upcoming contests, rules, results, photos, videos, etc. could all live there.


youre hired as head of marketing.

RE: the domain... had that for years....you typed it wrong. :thumb:

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 04:02 PM
If an organizer bought into the concept of a BOBBQB event, would the KCBS buy into having onsite judging for the four main catagories if the Organizer wanted KCBS sanctioning also?

KCBS would not sanction as a BBQ event under the normal guise, but I believe it can be done under one of KCBS's other series tags(I think it may be called competitor series)


or the onsite judging can be a grilling contest on the first day coupled with a sanctioned BBQ event on the second. Just like we did at BotB 09.

motoeric
09-08-2010, 04:04 PM
If an organizer bought into the concept of a BOBBQB event, would the KCBS buy into having onsite judging for the four main catagories if the Organizer wanted KCBS sanctioning also?


That's an interesting question. I had meant for grilling, but all four categories would be sort of cool.

I should have been more clear, but it opened up an interesting concept.

Eric

Westexbbq
09-08-2010, 04:07 PM
Eric, you will have to define that phrase for us Polocks

FYI,

Raison d'ętre is a French phrase meaning "reason for existence."


:doh:(BTW, didn't have to look it up, took 2 years of French back in reform school)

SmokeInDaEye
09-08-2010, 04:12 PM
FYI,

Raison d'ętre is a French phrase meaning "reason for existence."

As opposed to "raisin's from your derriere."

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 04:16 PM
i thought it was some form of string cheese.

Plowboy
09-08-2010, 04:28 PM
If all of the awards had "In My Pants' at the end of them... then I'm in!

1st Place Chicken... in my pants.
1st Place Ribs... in my pants.
1st Place Pork... in my pants.
1st Place Brisket... in my pants.
1st Place sausage... well, you get the picture.

SmokeInDaEye
09-08-2010, 04:59 PM
If all of the awards had "In My Pants' at the end of them... then I'm in!

1st Place Chicken... in my pants.
1st Place Ribs... in my pants.
1st Place Pork... in my pants.
1st Place Brisket... in my pants.
1st Place sausage... well, you get the picture.

Just change the name of your team to "In My Pants" then make sure to win every category.

And the grand champion of Battle of the BBQ Brethren Guam is "In My Pants".

leanza
09-08-2010, 05:08 PM
It may be time.

Captain Caveman
09-08-2010, 05:49 PM
I think it would be cool to pair up a pro team with a backyard team, and the pair with the highest combined score would get bonus $$$. That would ensure plenty of knowledge sharing from the pro teams.

Skip
09-08-2010, 06:15 PM
FYI,

Raison d'ętre is a French phrase meaning "reason for existence."

Thanks Wes. Couldn't be bothered to look it up.

I think the idea of a BOTB sanctioning body has merit but must be well thought out. A set of rules should be drawn up to closely mimic those in use today by the majority of BBQ societies. Any serious deviation from that might hurt the credibility of a growing sanctioning body. Not that I have any reason to believe that someone would try to discredit it there is always the chance. I think proper planning is the utmost of priorities. A template for the sanctioning body to show the people involved so that people here can offer input. To make it bulletproof I think little deviation from the normal expectation would entice established contests to adopt it as well. I just have a fear that some would try to revamp the rules or normal course of the event to create a serious change in expectation. People hate change and will be less receptive if asked to make a lot.

I think the fact that there always seems to be a charity or cause that the BOTB support makes them something you'd like to be a part of. Maybe the entry fees are linked with a possible donation or the charity/cause announced early so people could get donations from family friends and local businesses. Possibly use that money to pay for a peoples choice or food bank donation. The events do a lot now but with some extra effort money could be raised by the competitors earlier and made available for event time. Possibly make the entry fee the donation so friends and family could write off the sponsorship of a team. Then ask local business to support the prize pool. Gotta be a way to give them a write off too.

What is truly necessary IMO is diligent organization. When you are trying to break into the big game you need your ducks in a row or you will be the rival sanctioning bodies biggest advertisement. Just look at many products out there that have imitators(new Coke anyone). Worst of all flying in the face of KCBS with a new sanctioning body that isn't regional is like MCI taking on Ma Bell at best and like Hunts catsup taking on Heinz Ketchup at worst. It is a daunting task and not without pitfalls and probable monetary cost. This isn't something that would just fall in place and shouldn't be treated as such (not that I am saying it will be). Everything from - garnering local support and sponsorship
- competitor and public friendly venues
- a force to support the vital systems such as power and sanitation
- a proven punchlist of what how when and where to do things
- a oversight into the minutia that some overlook.

To do this you need a local group of volunteers to hit the ground months before the contest even is announced. A local cause will definitely bring in more interest from local businesses especially those that cater to the whole populace like eateries and general markets. Local BBQ supply places can offer merchandise much easier then dipping in their pocket.

Competitor and public friendly is a real key too. Especially if you are bringing it to a locale where you are IT on that specific weekend. If it weren't for your contest they would be shootin' holes in street signs (NTTAWWT). If you can offer a peoples choice event or better yet a give back idea like a "Down home BBQ". Help the charity recruit volunteers to do BBQ side dishes. The competitors could cook ribs and chicken and the town folk could sit down to an afternoon BBQ. People are going to come to BBQ competitions if they can eat BBQ. I know many who hate the attitude of some competitors who can't be bothered to be nice when telling how they aren't allowed to give out food. Yeah it stinks to be asked but thats why they came down. Maybe a way to make that clear to the public before they are disappointed on turn in day.

It should require a boilerplate for support expectation such as electricians for initial set up and support throughout the event especially during peak times. Water should have the same support, possible redundancies and etc. Sanitation is always hit or miss at a contest so possibly tracking attendance estimates with sanitation complaints to gear for the right ratio of toilets to people. Does anyone know how they do attendance estimates?

All the above could fall onto a punchlist to help the organizational staff cross the t's and dot the i's. This is an area that I think the different organizers on this board could hash out. We've all seen the good the bad and the ugly contest so I am sure that info from each organizers "need to do" list could be used to make something "better" then whats out there.

last but not least you need the attention to detail. No one wants to sweat the small stuff but thats exactly what should be done. You've got 3 outlets for each team on invidual trees yet you wire can't carry the load. Two water connections with 45 pounds of pressure and the end of the line but the transfers are low volume hose so they kep breaking under the pressure. You get a local artisan to fabricate 65 hand crafted works of art for trophies but spells it chiken or carves the wrong date. Unfortunately all the minutia is what is seen and the greatest of efforts can be dismantled by the smallest thing.

I think this community can move mountains if asked. If everyone that wants to be can feel involved in it then the support would follow.

Cue's Your Daddy
09-08-2010, 06:24 PM
Very well written skip.. NICE JOB. but did u get a headache from writting it LOLOLO

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Very well written skip.. NICE JOB. but did u get a headache from writting it LOLOLO

Did he smell it when composing it? :becky:

Skip
09-08-2010, 08:27 PM
It smelled funny. :becky:

FBA would be a good idea. Possible their sanctioning body could sponsor a BOTB Series of events across the nation. They have a fine name, an established set of rules and good people who cook at the top. From what I have seen heard and read about FBA they are nothing but above board. They have a great judge training and rating system as well. Wash and wear infastructure. lol

dmprantz
09-08-2010, 08:35 PM
I've been thinking about this for the past few hours, and I really only see one of two directions here: 1) Competitions just for Brethren, or 2) Contests for every one with Brethren as a new sanctioning body. I'm not sure what a "Battle of the BBQ Brethren" event that is KCBS or FBA and open to non-brethren buys. Am I missing something? I think that either of the above two is an intriguing idea, but if it's not one of those...what's the point?

dmp

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 08:38 PM
I've been thinking about this for the past few hours, and I really only see one of two directions here: 1) Competitions just for Brethren, or 2) Contests for every one with Brethren as a new sanctioning body. I'm not sure what a "Battle of the BBQ Brethren" event that is KCBS or FBA and open to non-brethren buys. Am I missing something? I think that either of the above two is an intriguing idea, but if it's not one of those...what's the point?

dmp

Thats exactly what Im thinking

Skip
09-08-2010, 08:44 PM
That's an interesting question. I had meant for grilling, but all four categories would be sort of cool.

I should have been more clear, but it opened up an interesting concept.

Eric

I think that would be a little too much of a change. For MBA areas it would work because you have the judges pool who understands on site judging but may confuse KCBS judges. There would need to be a class or long judges meeting to explain the on site judging to those who may not have seen it. For some time I am sure that BOTB's won't be the norm in an area so the experience of most judges will be double blind rather then on site. It would make you wonder if judge banter would change scores. There would be no way to get 6 individuals into every site separately for four categories either.

I can't speak to MBA practice as I don't know enough but I believe the judging is split and you may only do one category which may work but would distance the BOTB from the KCBS style. NTTAWWT

Skip
09-08-2010, 08:52 PM
I think it would be cool to pair up a pro team with a backyard team, and the pair with the highest combined score would get bonus $$$. That would ensure plenty of knowledge sharing from the pro teams.


I like this idea no matter what the setting. Tag Team BBQ. Require a fun mash up of the two teams names. Have the experienced team pick their backyard teams name from a hat or vice versa. Just a cool idea.

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 09:02 PM
I like this idea no matter what the setting. Tag Team BBQ. Require a fun mash up of the two teams names. Have the experienced team pick their backyard teams name from a hat or vice versa. Just a cool idea.

Doubt that would ever happen. Hpw many would be willing to share? To much money invested by teams per contest for something like that

Skip
09-08-2010, 09:13 PM
Doubt that would ever happen. Hpw many would be willing to share? To much money invested by teams per contest for something like that


Probably right but would be fun if not for the 1K in costs. I think many could get away without giving away all their secrets. Maybe have rub and sauce sponsor give product.

Would take a lot. Would be fun though.

BBQchef33
09-08-2010, 09:17 PM
some seriously good ideas in this thread. :clap2:

motoeric
09-08-2010, 09:31 PM
Doubt that would ever happen. Hpw many would be willing to share? To much money invested by teams per contest for something like that

I think that another problem would be how to ensure that the experienced team is sharing as opposed to just doing everything for the inexperienced team.

Eric

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 09:38 PM
I would like to see Philadelphia roast pork Italian sandwich a la tony luke as a regular category along with the main four

Skip
09-08-2010, 09:38 PM
I think that another problem would be how to ensure that the experienced team is sharing as opposed to just doing everything for the inexperienced team.

Eric

If the inexperienced team isn't learning or helping I think they might say something. I would. I'd wonder why I was there. Maybe a roaming admin to witness the interaction.

Sledneck
09-08-2010, 09:39 PM
To outside the box , KISS seems to work best

CTSmokehouse
09-08-2010, 10:18 PM
Thanks Wes. Couldn't be bothered to look it up.

I think the idea of a BOTB sanctioning body has merit but must be well thought out. A set of rules should be drawn up to closely mimic those in use today by the majority of BBQ societies. Any serious deviation from that might hurt the credibility of a growing sanctioning body. Not that I have any reason to believe that someone would try to discredit it there is always the chance. I think proper planning is the utmost of priorities. A template for the sanctioning body to show the people involved so that people here can offer input. To make it bulletproof I think little deviation from the normal expectation would entice established contests to adopt it as well. I just have a fear that some would try to revamp the rules or normal course of the event to create a serious change in expectation. People hate change and will be less receptive if asked to make a lot.

I think the fact that there always seems to be a charity or cause that the BOTB support makes them something you'd like to be a part of. Maybe the entry fees are linked with a possible donation or the charity/cause announced early so people could get donations from family friends and local businesses. Possibly use that money to pay for a peoples choice or food bank donation. The events do a lot now but with some extra effort money could be raised by the competitors earlier and made available for event time. Possibly make the entry fee the donation so friends and family could write off the sponsorship of a team. Then ask local business to support the prize pool. Gotta be a way to give them a write off too.

What is truly necessary IMO is diligent organization. When you are trying to break into the big game you need your ducks in a row or you will be the rival sanctioning bodies biggest advertisement. Just look at many products out there that have imitators(new Coke anyone). Worst of all flying in the face of KCBS with a new sanctioning body that isn't regional is like MCI taking on Ma Bell at best and like Hunts catsup taking on Heinz Ketchup at worst. It is a daunting task and not without pitfalls and probable monetary cost. This isn't something that would just fall in place and shouldn't be treated as such (not that I am saying it will be). Everything from - garnering local support and sponsorship
- competitor and public friendly venues
- a force to support the vital systems such as power and sanitation
- a proven punchlist of what how when and where to do things
- a oversight into the minutia that some overlook.

To do this you need a local group of volunteers to hit the ground months before the contest even is announced. A local cause will definitely bring in more interest from local businesses especially those that cater to the whole populace like eateries and general markets. Local BBQ supply places can offer merchandise much easier then dipping in their pocket.

Competitor and public friendly is a real key too. Especially if you are bringing it to a locale where you are IT on that specific weekend. If it weren't for your contest they would be shootin' holes in street signs (NTTAWWT). If you can offer a peoples choice event or better yet a give back idea like a "Down home BBQ". Help the charity recruit volunteers to do BBQ side dishes. The competitors could cook ribs and chicken and the town folk could sit down to an afternoon BBQ. People are going to come to BBQ competitions if they can eat BBQ. I know many who hate the attitude of some competitors who can't be bothered to be nice when telling how they aren't allowed to give out food. Yeah it stinks to be asked but thats why they came down. Maybe a way to make that clear to the public before they are disappointed on turn in day.

It should require a boilerplate for support expectation such as electricians for initial set up and support throughout the event especially during peak times. Water should have the same support, possible redundancies and etc. Sanitation is always hit or miss at a contest so possibly tracking attendance estimates with sanitation complaints to gear for the right ratio of toilets to people. Does anyone know how they do attendance estimates?

All the above could fall onto a punchlist to help the organizational staff cross the t's and dot the i's. This is an area that I think the different organizers on this board could hash out. We've all seen the good the bad and the ugly contest so I am sure that info from each organizers "need to do" list could be used to make something "better" then whats out there.

last but not least you need the attention to detail. No one wants to sweat the small stuff but thats exactly what should be done. You've got 3 outlets for each team on invidual trees yet you wire can't carry the load. Two water connections with 45 pounds of pressure and the end of the line but the transfers are low volume hose so they kep breaking under the pressure. You get a local artisan to fabricate 65 hand crafted works of art for trophies but spells it chiken or carves the wrong date. Unfortunately all the minutia is what is seen and the greatest of efforts can be dismantled by the smallest thing.

I think this community can move mountains if asked. If everyone that wants to be can feel involved in it then the support would follow.

Wow!

Yours in BBQ,

Cliff

Lake Dogs
09-09-2010, 07:09 AM
I think that would be a little too much of a change. For MBA areas it would work because you have the judges pool who understands on site judging but may confuse KCBS judges. There would need to be a class or long judges meeting to explain the on site judging to those who may not have seen it. For some time I am sure that BOTB's won't be the norm in an area so the experience of most judges will be double blind rather then on site. It would make you wonder if judge banter would change scores. There would be no way to get 6 individuals into every site separately for four categories either.

I can't speak to MBA practice as I don't know enough but I believe the judging is split and you may only do one category which may work but would distance the BOTB from the KCBS style. NTTAWWT

From and MBN judge and competitor, perhaps a better approach yet
still embracing the difference would be GBA's approach, where all
the judging is blind, but there's still a finals round with a 2nd turn-in
(blind judged, by a different set of judges). Also makes those nasty
ties go away... However, using an "out of the box" system, FBA has
it going on!!!! Enough like KCBS that the KCBS folks wont run, yet
embraces a few of the other's differences and (IMHO) improvements.

I rather like the Brethren-only approach as had been mentioned earlier.

Perhaps break the countries (yes, Canada too) into 6 or 8 regions, allow
teams to compete in one and only one regional contest, then perhaps
allow the top 5 from each region to come to one central Brethren final.

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 07:10 AM
From and MBN judge and competitor, perhaps a better approach yet
still embracing the difference would be GBA's approach, where all
the judging is blind, but there's still a finals round with a 2nd turn-in
(blind judged, by a different set of judges). Also makes those nasty
ties go away... However, using an "out of the box" system, FBA has
it going on!!!! Enough like KCBS that the KCBS folks wont run, yet
embraces a few of the other's differences and (IMHO) improvements.

I rather like the Brethren-only approach as had been mentioned earlier.

Perhaps break the countries (yes, Canada too) into 6 or 8 regions, allow
teams to compete in one and only one regional contest, then perhaps
allow the top 5 from each region to come to one central Brethren final.
You right on the FBA, to me its a polished version of KCBS

Sawdustguy
09-09-2010, 08:02 AM
I think that would be a little too much of a change. For MBA areas it would work because you have the judges pool who understands on site judging but may confuse KCBS judges. There would need to be a class or long judges meeting to explain the on site judging to those who may not have seen it. For some time I am sure that BOTB's won't be the norm in an area so the experience of most judges will be double blind rather then on site. It would make you wonder if judge banter would change scores. There would be no way to get 6 individuals into every site separately for four categories either.

I can't speak to MBA practice as I don't know enough but I believe the judging is split and you may only do one category which may work but would distance the BOTB from the KCBS style. NTTAWWT

Lot's of people have been lobbying for judges to spend a contest with a team to learn what goes into competitive cooking. In lieu of that, onsite judging would be a great way for the judge to get a quick snapshot of what is involved without actually cooking an event with a team.

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 08:08 AM
Lot's of people have been lobbying for judges to spend a contest with a team to learn what goes into competitive cooking. In lieu of that, onsite judging would be a great way for the judge to get a quick snapshot of what is involved without actually cooking an event with a team.

Dog and Pony show not in everybodys favor. I know some MBN guys will jump on me but if I am presenting food from my 2 ezups and folding table and nobodys ever heard of me and lets just say Mixon is next to be judged with his fancy trailer with bar top seating and fame.... See where Im going with this? I did enjoy the sat onsite grilling deal 2 years ago at sayville. that being said I would never do it again. It was exhausting. Typically sat events have little money and always cost more. My investment is for the big show on Sunday.

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 08:27 AM
Dog and Pony show not in everybodys favor. I know some MBN guys will jump on me but if I am presenting food from my 2 ezups and folding table and nobodys ever heard of me and lets just say Mixon is next to be judged with his fancy trailer with bar top seating and fame.... See where Im going with this? I did enjoy the sat onsite grilling deal 2 years ago at sayville. that being said I would never do it again. It was exhausting. Typically sat events have little money and always cost more. My investment is for the big show on Sunday.

But didn't you lose the big show on Sunday? Better not dismiss the onsite concept especially with your growing MvF following.

Plowboy
09-09-2010, 08:38 AM
But didn't you lose the big show on Sunday? Better not dismiss the onsite concept especially with your growing MvF following.I think what Sled is saying is that without the dog and pony show that took his attention away from the Big Show... he would have wiped the floor with you guys. :heh:

<I got yer back, Sled.>

crd26a
09-09-2010, 09:25 AM
The talk of sanctioning body is fairly premature. Remember the fiasco / issue with Cates and the SMOW issues from earlier in the year? In order to roll something like that out, or even work with an organization such as the FBA to expand, would take some serious time, energy and resources to get running, let alone to build up a reputation from the ground up and grow into a national presence. Even if were to leverage the FBA, to expand their judge pool with trainings, get them into other areas, etc. would take a fair amount of time.

Now as for the regional events leading to a national event, this would make the most sense. My question would be is if we can leverage existing events and have them work towards a Brethren only-showdown. So, as an example, could Big Creek's spring or fall event (Smokin on the Creek / Fountain Senior Q) also have a Brethren entry, using the scores from that event and maybe 2-3 others in the Mid-west region, to select the top five from the midwest, with other events doing the same. This would avoid the need to setup multiple contests within the region, allowing a preset criteria be established, and the entry fees to setting up the final showdown.

Smokin Turkey
09-09-2010, 09:37 AM
As the organizer of Barbeque at the Beach (Battle of the Barbecue Brethren - PA) I chose to invite in Phil after a conversation we had a year ago about doing something regionally. I wanted to do anything I could for the brethren in return for all you have done for me. No it isnt limited to the brethren but having the brethren involved makes my event a little more legit. It's a first year event and Im learning the stress of it all. I got the financial backing of our the lake's visitors center, KCBS sanctioning, governor's proclamation, and I just felt like bringing in the name of the best BBQ forums out there would only help to bring in the teams. I hope to put on a great event which is next weekend btw for anyone who can't compete and just wants to come in. We are having a non sanctioned grilling event just for the Q people and the locals who want to have some fun. We are aiming our event at pleasing the teams which we know will bring more public in.

As for benefiting charities, I am involving our local volunteer fire depts and various organizations in the parking lots and donation of the cans at the event. I would like to say any proceeds were going to a charity but this year we are in the hole which I am sure is normal. I did have a plan to give our proceeds to Rotary and Habitat for Humanity.

I am taking a few pages of the playbook from all the great events I attended last year. Boston hills (the beer tent area) Roc City (the great area and stage area) Lake Placid (kids play area) Battle of the brethren 09 (the site decorating event)

I need to get back to work on my business and getting the things together for this comp but I saw this and wanted to weigh in as an organizer. i look forward to growing our competition, getting better organized, getting the BOTBB fleshed out in a franchiseable setup and just have fun! When do we start having fun as the organizer? lol!

Lake Dogs
09-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Dog and Pony show not in everybodys favor. I know some MBN guys will jump on me but if I am presenting food from my 2 ezups and folding table and nobodys ever heard of me and lets just say Mixon is next to be judged with his fancy trailer with bar top seating and fame.... See where Im going with this? I did enjoy the sat onsite grilling deal 2 years ago at sayville. that being said I would never do it again. It was exhausting. Typically sat events have little money and always cost more. My investment is for the big show on Sunday.

Sled, I wouldnt jump on 'ya for that! Seriously though, my personal
experience has been that the newer judges (very few of these in
MBN/MIM) may be a little swayed by the glamor & name, but to some
it can be a turn-off [think of the overbearing used car salesman].

In the end, the on-site scores are weighted less, BUT the person
running "the show" can certainly persuade someone that his BBQ is just
that much better. I think the salesmanship has more to do with it than
the glitz/glamor. Mixon WILL sell his stuff, to be certain. I, personally,
think it's unnecessary (the on-site), but I really like the 2nd turn-in
concept. HOWEVER, being a 2 EZ-UP tent with RV and Lang 60 team,
I've never felt that Myron's battle wagon had anything more to offer
that a discerning judge couldn't figure out... The "big rigs" do allow for
the appearance of cleanliness a little easier; cleanliness being one of the
2 additional factors in scoring of on-site (the other being the presentation
of the meat on the cooker). We just use 3 sides on one of our EZ-UPs
and face it backwards so the judge doesn't see what's going on "behind
the curtain". :shock:

> Lot's of people have been lobbying for judges to spend a contest
> with a team to learn what goes into competitive cooking. In lieu
> of that, onsite judging would be a great way for the judge to get
> a quick snapshot of what is involved without actually cooking an
> event with a team.

Guy, that "quick snapshot" is usually a very dressed up and not even
close to showing the realities quick glimpse. I'm not sure that many will
glean anything real from it. I do think that judges should have some idea
as to what goes into it, but viewing a very clean cool smoker with meat
that's positioned between pineapples and oranges and apples on lettuce
while being told how wonderful their BBQ is and why doesn't nearly begin
to cover what efforts went in to it, IMHO. Oooooops, just gave away
our secrets of our on-site. DOH

BBQchef33
09-09-2010, 09:58 AM
whoa nelly!!!! are we getting way ahead of ourselves.

babysteps.. lets just recognize that alot of thought and work has been ongoing towards the direction of nationwide contests. This thread is great in addresssing some thoughts we have already had as well as bringing in new ideas.

We are only in the very early stages. besides the recruitment of organizers and reps, the first thing needed is to leverage the already national distribution we have to establish a known and familiar presence. BotB contests need to:

1 - entice existing organizers to tag a contest as such by adding value to the contest wheather it be prizes, $$ or resources.
2 - Use an already familiar boilerplate(and sanctioning body) and IN ADDITION to that, add in whatever it is that makes the event unique. That is required to give the teams a familiar comfort level and ensurance of integrity while at the same time introducing the brand and its visions.
3 - Follow preset guidelines WE would require to ensure cook friendly above and beyond.

Once the presence is established, and BotB events are acknowledged by the teams where the branding is seen as a guarantee of quality, we can then possibly expand on existing foundations. But that fall under "if it aint broke......." (lest not discuss the 'but it is broke theory. For the most part, all systems work).

Having Brethren only events is possible, within the brand, but that would be in addtion to the open events. We are not and do not want to give the image of exclusivity. Besides, whats the criteria for signing up to a 'Brethren only" contest? A forum ID? That can be created in 30 seconds. As sled says, the existing name already and mistakenly gives an aire of exclusivity, which is detrimental. I know of several teams who did not sign up to the first event thinking it was for members only. We are an open organization, and contest branding may require a better name.

Sidebar -

The Onsite judging that we did consisted of only 2 categories, presented together. Appetizer/entree or entree/desert. Teams were able to add anything else they wanted to compliment the meal, but the judges must be told which 2 items to score. Criteria was Presentation/originality(of the recipe)/taste. It was a huge hit with both teams and judges with only a couple of folks having isssue(judges complained there was too much food. :becky:).

so, without getting lightyears ahead of ourselves trying to repeat what cates is trying, lets focus on bringing a level of uniqueness and quality to an event that would get teams thinking outside of the 9x9 inch box and just keep looking 9 -12 months ahead at a time.


got more to say, but have to work!

rookiedad
09-09-2010, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rookiedad
i think this is a great idea! a national team comprised of members of various Brethren teams might be instrumental in attracting a big national sponsor, like an energy drink, like in the X-games.

also, while i was reading this thread i was thinking that if there was a National team... why not a national contest! The Battle Of The Barbeque Breathren was so great and so fun that i felt bad for all the Brethren Nationwide who did not get a chance to participate in it first hand.

so what about a committee to organize a Brethren competition in all the various sectors of the Nation, with the National team as the host. i don't know anything about putting on a competition but would be happy to help in this effort if anyone thinks it's worthwhile.




here is a post from 2008 dealing with the same idea! a Breathren national contest might have the ability to attract a national sponsor, drawing in more media and introducing competition bbq to a wider audience. it could be an opportunity let a national team host the event drawing in non-Breathren teams and Breathren teams alike.

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 02:34 PM
I think what Sled is saying is that without the dog and pony show that took his attention away from the Big Show... he would have wiped the floor with you guys. :heh:

<I got yer back, Sled.>

Always with the excuses. It's like that old Mili Vanilli song, "Blame it on the (Vita-)Rain"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrLtFBBtJwo

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 03:42 PM
I think what Sled is saying is that without the dog and pony show that took his attention away from the Big Show... he would have wiped the floor with you guys. :heh:

<I got yer back, Sled.>
Thanks buddy, I got yours whenever need be.

chambersuac
09-09-2010, 03:59 PM
I think it'd be fun to have a contest "for pinks" - winner takes the losers' cookers!

Seriously, sounds like you guys are on to something good. Thanks!

Anchors Smokeshop
09-09-2010, 04:16 PM
What about a BOTB in each state, then the GC's from each state compete against each other in a Royal type event to determine the best brethren team each year? This doesn't have to be just brethren members, but would have the brethren name attached to it, kinda like the Brethren series.
With the proper advertisements and sponsors, over the years this could become as big as MIM or one of the other World Championships.

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 04:25 PM
What about a BOTB in each state, then the GC's from each state compete against each other in a Royal type event to determine the best brethren team each year? This doesn't have to be just brethren members, but would have the brethren name attached to it, kinda like the Brethren series.
With the proper advertisements and sponsors, over the years this could become as big as MIM or one of the other World Championships.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

Ideally it could develop into a series ala the Empire State to conclude each year with an invitational for that year's GCs with prizes for invitational to be subsidized by sponsors of the entire series. That alone would make it enticing to a lot of teams I would think, plus contest logos, web design, flyers, t-shirts, press outreach and other overhead should be much lower since your basically creating templates that can be customized per market.

If you owned BattleOfTheBBQBrethren.com (or BoBBqBattle.com), upcoming contests, rules, results, photos, videos, etc. could all live there.

The_Kapn
09-09-2010, 04:55 PM
There are a lot of "Pros" and "Cons" to this whole discussion.

To me, the bottom line is:
"What can we bring to the table" for an event.

At over 10K members, we have a "national" and even "international" footprint.

This needs to be leveraged into an indentifiable brand.
That takes $$ and time.

For example, within the FBA, we could probably add a "grilling" event, IF (and only IF) the organizer saw some value added for their effort.
"Drawing more teams" would probably not work since we have great attendance without add-ons. (JMHO)

Figure out the "Value Added", and we can do it. ! :-D
Maybe put up $500- $1K or so, and we could get it going.
But, it has gotta be something added!!!!

TIM

Skip
09-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Perhaps break the countries (yes, Canada too) into 6 or 8 regions, allow
teams to compete in one and only one regional contest, then perhaps
allow the top 5 from each region to come to one central Brethren final.

The breakdown would work in a series event but would restrict the number of events that take place. I think the idea is to bring a "better" or "different" option to other sanctioning bodies. As well as bring a proven model for contests to run smoothly for all involved. Maybe allow more events and allow the highest score from that region to be your draw for the final contest. Sort of like the Empire Cup in NY state. 8 or 9 contests take place but your highest four are used to calculate your standing. I think one of the great things that happened with the Empire Cup is that Teams who wouldn't normally compete came from all around to vie for the cup. You wouldn't want to restrict Brethren to a specific region and also wouldn't want to give unfair advantage to those in areas that have more contests.

Skip
09-09-2010, 05:54 PM
But didn't you lose the big show on Sunday?

Wow now lets stick it in his rump roast and call him Sally why don't we. :heh::heh::heh:

Skip
09-09-2010, 06:10 PM
Always with the excuses. It's like that old Mili Vanilli song, "Blame it on the (Vita-)Rain"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrLtFBBtJwo


Careful your video response may be misunderstood. :tape::tape::tape:

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 07:29 PM
Wow now lets stick it in his rump roast and call him Sally why don't we. :heh::heh::heh:

If memory serves that Sunday that I "lost" I took 1st in ribs unlike getting DQ'd when you are 10' away from turn in like he was last week:boxing:

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 07:55 PM
If memory serves that Sunday that I "lost" I took 1st in ribs unlike getting DQ'd when you are 10' away from turn in like he was last week:boxing:

That was two weeks ago, not one. Last week I was 10' away from judging but was DQ'd for being too late.

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 08:02 PM
Always with the excuses. It's like that old Mili Vanilli song, "Blame it on the (Vita-)Rain"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrLtFBBtJwo

How did you do at that very contest that was referred to in the video:mad2:

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 08:17 PM
How did you do at that very contest that was referred to in the video:mad2:

Not bad considering I flew in to enjoy the moment. I got everything in on time and felt happy with getting it all cooked on borrowed equipment and not coming in DAL. Why you ask? You know that R2BQ team listed as DAL?:clap2:

Sledneck
09-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Not bad considering I flew in to enjoy the moment. I got everything in on time and felt happy with getting it all cooked on borrowed equipment and not coming in DAL. Why you ask? You know that R2BQ team listed as DAL?:clap2:not that far from you in those standings, I was sitting in my backyard here in NY:thumb:

SmokeInDaEye
09-09-2010, 08:28 PM
not that far from you in those standings, I was sitting in my backyard here in NY:thumb:

Sounds fun. Yawwwwnnnn.

Muzzlebrake
09-09-2010, 08:58 PM
I like SIDE's idea of the competition series. They seem to be very fashionable these days and a Brethren series would be cool.

Jeff_in_KC
09-09-2010, 09:24 PM
All depend on how its labeled and perceived as well. I know that I have heard from many teams in the past that they thought the long island contest "the battle of the bbq brethren" was only for brethren members. At New Holland a few people who had seen the banner up top for raystown asked the same question when it was changed to Botb/PA.If i werent in "the know" I might be confused as well

I agree, Sled... the perception would be that it is only for Brethren. But that could be overcome. Now as far as sanctioning, I did not mean a new sanctioning body... just competitions under the KCBS sanctioning.

rookiedad
09-10-2010, 10:12 AM
i think we have a pretty good reason for existance, but what i think we need now is a mission statement. i like the idea of a national contest but we must know what the goal is in fomulating it before we can support it with action. for instance, i like the idea of presenting barbeque to a wider audience. this would have the benifit to contest organizers, teams and charities by providing revenue in the form of spectators and thusly sponsors who wish to advertise to those masses. now please realise that this is only an example but if this was the mission statement we could next use a similar event that accomplished this as a template. i think that professional bass fishing is a good example. we seem to be trying to do now what they have done in the past. Ford made a good example of it in a post titled "will bbq become a sport" i will find and link it here. remember though anything that we can do from this point on, to be original, will require change and it goes without saying will be solely dependant on Phil as has already been stated.

rookiedad
09-10-2010, 10:18 AM
as promised.


#11
Ford
is One Chatty Farker



Join Date: 04-15-07
Location: Sparta MI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizards of 'Que
Unless people become willing to pay to watch we will be playing for our own money. You are right that poker is a better comparision, but not WS of Poker, but the buddies in the game room type.
Actually I'm thinking TV. How about bass fishing. Now what's more boring than watching a fat of bald guy with a bass boat cast and retrieve for hours without a bite. But edit a full 4 days of fishing into a one hour action packed show and all of a suddne they have 100K payouts and more. Plus sponsors for teams who want their logo on TV. In poker on TV today and there's tons of it on the dish on the Sports channels not just the WS and on Bravo and Travel. And how many of the contestants wear ads on their clothes? And anybody can pay a fee to enter these tourneys. Now it's more than we pay but heck their prizes are in the millions.

How about a series for TV - 13 contests, prize money of $200K per so 2.6 mil investment less entry fees, sponsors, etc to get 13 - 1 hour epsidoes in the can. No fees to the actors (cooks and judges). Now if you can sell it to a TV network and get sponsors then it's the World Series of BBQ. Anybody can enter. Heck I'd pay $500 entry fee for a shot. Mike, Johnny and the rest put their pants on one leg at a time and on any given day they can be whipped. Just ask Podge or Scottie.
__________________
Ford
Owner/Head Cook/Chief Bottle Washer for Great Lakes BBQ & Feed Co - Catering, Vending and Competition BBQ Team
Championship BBQ Cook & KCBS Certified BBQ Judge

3 FEC100's in enclosed trailer
Weber Kettle with rotisserie, WSM
Weber Summit D6 gasser & Viking Range with Grill in the kitchen

Anchors Smokeshop
09-10-2010, 10:31 AM
WS of BBQ. I like it, sign me up.

Sledneck
09-10-2010, 10:36 AM
I agree, Sled... the perception would be that it is only for Brethren. But that could be overcome. Now as far as sanctioning, I did not mean a new sanctioning body... just competitions under the KCBS sanctioning.

As an organizer yourself of a successful contest what do you think it could bring? I doubt you will get more teams from it. I am having a had time understanding the point of it all. Are you going to rebrand your contest with BOTB on it?

Fat Woody
09-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Great concept - thanks Jeff for getting it in the mainstream! Sounds like the Poobister and inner circle are well along in the planning stages on this already, so probably not much in the way of fresh thought here, but:

From the perspective of someone relatively new to the Brethren and to competition, I like the idea of a contest with mentoring by established teams, judge participation, classes, branded seminars, and other options to help newcomers get a grip on competition. Stage a Friday cook for new teams with a mentor? Head cooks from new teams might be allowed to PB for Brethren teams on Sat/Sun in exchange for helping out with setup & tear down. I understand that some will see this as more work and added expense and rightly so, especially if a day is added. But I think the mentoring work can be limited and hopefully the expense offset, possibly by charging a fee to new teams who want to participate in a separate contest and learn.

As far as a national BotB series, would it be possible to stage a "contest within a contest" for now? Having Brethren teams compete against each other based on the scores received from the established contest would allow BotB contests to take place in conjunction with any (sanctioned or non-sanctioned) contest anywhere in the world. It also might allow for "co-op" marketing, combining the sanctioning body and Brethren brands without alienating or dividing the organizations involved in staging the comp. The Brethren "seal of approval" could be granted to contests that are well organized and cooker friendly.

As others have suggested, qualifiers for regional contests could come from the already established comps, culminating in a National Battle Royale (®?) for Brethren teams.

Politics aside (and I'm extremely apolitical), it all seems like a good way to promote BBQ, the Brethren and also help some people out along the way. Let me know what I can do.

SmokeInDaEye
09-10-2010, 10:47 AM
WS of BBQ. I like it, sign me up.

Don't you mean "World Series of Porker"?