Just who you cookin' for, anyway?

[Dave Russell]

Mornin'!

Well, I was reading a post describing super moist and tender pork butt, smoked (and later foiled) in a pan at 350. IT GOT ME TO THINKIN':idea:, but let me say this first: I know a lot of you guys do this, and if you're cooking for judges and you think that's how you'll win....by all means:clap2:....

I was thinking though, Do us bbq-ers tend to cook for ourselves (or judges), OR, do we think about who all's gonna being eating it?:bored: Hold on.... I'll give one example of what I mean, related to the panned and foiled butt:

In the last month, I heard two different people at different times describe someone's bbq as being "greasy", one saying it upset her stomach.:sick: You see, I'm worried about my bbq turning out really moist, and some poor soul sees it glisten and worries about how their tummy will fill later on:pray:....
Anyway, I'm just wondering if we really take the folks that end up eating our 'q into account. :confused:

Another example is spice and sugar levels in our sauce. I love sweet ribs and hot sauces as much as anybody, but not everybody does. I guess that's a no-brainer, but I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm thinking that the crowd-pleasing 'Q won't necessarily be the big hit with the KCBS-sanctioned judges. No offense, but am I right or wrong? Any thoughts? I know, some are thinking "no brainer", but anyway...

Anybody got any other things we might fail to consider? For instance, a judge might not care, but I know for a fact that most folks don't find meteor-like barbequed pork butts very appetising.:shock:

Later, I'll share about a 50 year old bbq joint here in middle TN with a really unique cooking method. I got to warn you though, it might make all you "hi-temp pan and foilers" think twice.:wink: Folks love their 'q, but most bbq-ers will have complete and utter disdain for their method. The taste buds don't care, though.:-P

Thanks for readin'!:-D
Dave
wsm, otg, ots, wsj, uds, char-griller w/sfb

[campdude]

I hear you Dave. Don't know who most people cook for, but I cook it the way I like it. Never had any complaints from anyone who came over to eat with the wife and me. I don't cook competively but I suppose if you do you NEED to cook the way you think the judges want it. I like to try new flavors (rubs, mops, sauces)but go with the old favs a lot. I don't want greasy meat but will eat that any day before dry shoe leather. I think all the flavor profiles are personal. If you're cooking to win, do what you have to do. If you're cooking for family and friends cook it the way YOU like it.
I'm interested in hearing about that 50 year old Q joint. If it's good, I wouldn't care about there methods.:-D

[bbq lover]

for home cooks I cook food for my family and there likes for comps i cook for judges there is a big difference as for sauces and spices its a person to person thing i make a mild spice/sauce for people but also offer a hotter spice/ sauce combo.. as for comps.. here in cali.. its sweet and sticky .. witch i dont like lol

[Dave Russell]

Well, Campdude, what I'm about to describe is about as far away from how all of us bbq as you can get, but you wouldn't know it from the end product. I got the grand tour the first time I went there since a friend said it was his fav. I can't even remember the name, just that the place is in Murfreesboro, TN.

They hickory smoke a whole bunch of unseasoned butts in a big brick pit, but don't finish. Huh? Yep, they stop when the meat's no longer raw, I guess 160 or more. After they cool the butts, they're stored in big Rubbermaid totes in a walk-in cooler. I think they only fire the pit up twice a week. When they need 'Q, they pull out a tote and cut the butts into chunks to be boiled in giant pots with salt, cayenne, b. pepper, and I think one other thing he wouldn't mention, because I believe he said there's four things. Anyway, they boil until tender and pull apart to put into the pans to hold for serving. That's it, and he's got a killer sauce. The 'Q is moist and juicy, (just no bark), but not the least hint of greasiness, and folks all over love it for that fact. On the walls are signed photos of country music celebs and the like.

Crazy, huh? I'm not about to start cooking like that, but when I think about folks describing some bbq as being "greasy" and look at all the gunk in my wsm water pan, I completely reject the notion of cooking butts in a pan the whole time....foiling, too, unless I'm running out of time. However, I need some good recipes for adding a bit of moisture back into butts when they occasionally end up a bit dry. I've just used apple juice before, but thought that took away from the flavor.

[campdude]

I try not to foil unless I'm running out of time, which isn't to often. Don't think I'll be boiling my Q any time soon, but would give it a try if I'm ever in the area. Sounds like the sauce is what makes it Q for most people. I don't sauce to often either. I know a lot of people who use the apple juice trick on meat that is a bit dry - does change the flavor somewhat. After pulling pork apart I've used a small amount of bacon grease mixed in and then tossed in a hot fry pan for a minute. It adds a little moisture but it is a little greasier. At least the flavor still says pork.
Smoke then boil? I will say when making carnitas, sometimes I will smoke for a couple of hours (don't even check the temp) before I boil in the oil. It adds a amoky flavor that is very good ( to me anyway).:clap2:

[Dave Russell]

Campdude,

I'm thinking of the possibilities that wouldn't include grease: worchester, chicken broth, vinegar, water, apple juice, and drippings (fat skimmed) fromthe foil after resting. I wonder if there's a ratio of all or some of those types of liquids that would work, without changing or washing out the flavor.

BTW, I've been experimenting with temps. What temps are you happy cooking butts at? I found my rub didn't take to smoking at 300, but I want to cook hotter than 250. I'll probably try 250-275, next time. What say you?

Thanks,
Dave

[QuietOne]

Cooking for myself and the family is different than cooking for a group of friends. I KNOW how I like it, how the wife likes it = less spicy than mine, cooking for a group of say 15 people over for bbq I will ease up on the spice level, less heat, less salt, and I have a sugarless rub for the diabetic group of friends.

I try not to foil in cooking but I do foil in resting which is not a lot of difference really but not foiling under heat seems to give less of a "greasy" meat, pork especially.

Plus I always cook OTHER stuff; veggies and breads and so on for the few vegans we have over at the same time. Yes I have a grill and a drum that I don't use meats on so go figure! The vegans I have over are nice people I enjoy the company so I do special for them and what the heck it was an excuse for a small grill and another drum. Besides which when I go their place for dinner they always get me a steak and shrimp. So win win I figure.

Major difference between cooking for myself and others is the level of spice & salt involved.

[PCDoctor_1979]

As I've told folks many times, I'm always cooking for the "judges". That may be me, my wife & family, competition judges, people attending a festival where I'm vending, catering customers, or my tailgating crew. Each of these usually have a different tolerance/preference for sweetness, heat, bark, etc. and I can make the necessary adjustments easily. When I cook ribs at home, each rack is prepared differently. :wink:

[campdude]

Campdude,

I'm thinking of the possibilities that wouldn't include grease: worchester, chicken broth, vinegar, water, apple juice, and drippings (fat skimmed) fromthe foil after resting. I wonder if there's a ratio of all or some of those types of liquids that would work, without changing or washing out the flavor.

BTW, I've been experimenting with temps. What temps are you happy cooking butts at? I found my rub didn't take to smoking at 300, but I want to cook hotter than 250. I'll probably try 250-275, next time. What say you?

Thanks,
Dave
Fat skimmed drippings would be the best place to start. Try adding a little low sugar apple juice or low salt chicken broth and tasting the liquid before adding to the meat. It'll take some trial and error to get a mix you like. Hopefully you don't do dry pork to often. Add to a small amount of meat and taste. You may eat the whole piece of meat before you get it right. It's always fun trying.
As for temps I usually go between 250 - 275. If the rub I put together for a peticular roast is higher in sugar than usuall I won't go above 275. I like a fairly sweet/spicy rub and don't want the sugar to get a burned taste. I do adjust salt, sweet, and spicy content if someone will be eating it that has concerns with one of them. I have a fav rub for pork that I make that is a bit sweet and more than a bit spicy, but it mellows as you get deeper in the roast away from the bark.

[Dave Russell]

Fat skimmed drippings would be the best place to start. Try adding a little low sugar apple juice or low salt chicken broth and tasting the liquid before adding to the meat. It'll take some trial and error to get a mix you like. Hopefully you don't do dry pork to often. Add to a small amount of meat and taste. You may eat the whole piece of meat before you get it right. It's always fun trying.
As for temps I usually go between 250 - 275. If the rub I put together for a peticular roast is higher in sugar than usuall I won't go above 275. I like a fairly sweet/spicy rub and don't want the sugar to get a burned taste. I do adjust salt, sweet, and spicy content if someone will be eating it that has concerns with one of them. I have a fav rub for pork that I make that is a bit sweet and more than a bit spicy, but it mellows as you get deeper in the roast away from the bark.

Campdude,

Thanks for the tip. I've been doing a bit of that trial and error the last little bit since I had smoked a pork butt the other day. I wish I had some of the drippings still, since I feel sure that would be the ticket mixed with chicken broth, vinegar, worchester, crushed red pepper, etc.. I'm working on the ratios, but it'll just be a guess since I don't have the drippings to cut it with.

(I bet someone out there already has a recipe like this they might be so generous to share.:pray:)

BTW, thanks for sharing your preferred cooking temps. I've heard that if you're gonna cook butts at high temps, you want little sugar and chili powder, and to go light on the rub in general. I guess I won't be using high heat.:-P I've found that the little wsm takes forever turning out 'Q when I go low and slow 225-250, and I've found that 275-300 is too high..... So I'd already planned on your preferred temp zone for my next cook. Thanks for the confirmation. :-D

Regards,
Dave

[campdude]

I can go low and slow - 225 to 250. I usually decide by what time I get the fire going and what time I want to eat. The key to good Q is not being in a hurry. It's always worth the wait.:thumb:

[Chef Jim]

Well you all were getting a little wordy, so I just skimmed through some of it. Now IMO My butt is not greasy. but I don't foil until the end and then only sometimes.

Butt as to who we are cooking for, good question! I cook for me and my honey. If we have guests, I still cook the same way.

Now I have only been a judge for a short period of time and by no means am I an expert. But why do you all cook for the judge at a comp. Because it's a comp and you want to win. Some comps use the same judges over and over and I guess you all figure out what they like and try to do it that way. Not a bad idea, but why not cook it the way you like it.

At the judge class I attended, the first turn in was chicken. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Just a little sweet with an undertone of some bite. Mostly subtle, but the guy next to me thought the bite was overpowering. Go figure.

So all the judges are different, with different tastes. How do you know what judge will get your turn in. Answer is, you don't know. And let me assure you that as a judge there is no way on earth that I would ever know who I was judging. BTW we are not allowed to discuss anything with other judges until it's over.

Cooking for the judge does not make any sense to me at all. Just saying.

I'm for cooking for me, or someone special.

Guess I went on as long as the rest of you.:becky:

[Dave Russell]

Well you all were getting a little wordy, so I just skimmed through some of it. Now IMO My butt is not greasy. but I don't foil until the end and then only sometimes.

Butt as to who we are cooking for, good question! I cook for me and my honey. If we have guests, I still cook the same way.

Now I have only been a judge for a short period of time and by no means am I an expert. But why do you all cook for the judge at a comp. Because it's a comp and you want to win. Some comps use the same judges over and over and I guess you all figure out what they like and try to do it that way. Not a bad idea, but why not cook it the way you like it.

At the judge class I attended, the first turn in was chicken. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Just a little sweet with an undertone of some bite. Mostly subtle, but the guy next to me thought the bite was overpowering. Go figure.

So all the judges are different, with different tastes. How do you know what judge will get your turn in. Answer is, you don't know. And let me assure you that as a judge there is no way on earth that I would ever know who I was judging. BTW we are not allowed to discuss anything with other judges until it's over.

Cooking for the judge does not make any sense to me at all. Just saying.

I'm for cooking for me, or someone special.

Guess I went on as long as the rest of you.:becky:

Wordy, Chef Jim? Well, I guess so.

This all started when I was thinking about how if you wanted greasy bbq, you should do just like all these folks are doing with the high heat temp cooks in a pan and foiling at 160 or whatever. Wow, it ends up moist (greasy)! Who'd have figured? Well, I'm working on something for pulled pork to help keep it moist without overpowering the natural goodness and without washing out the flavor. So far it consists just of mixing the meat's juices from the resting foil (fat skimmed) w/ chicken broth, vinegar, worchester and cayenne. It beats apple juice, sauce, and/or pork grease by a mile. Just think of a little to go a long way in that part of the butt that's a little dry sometimes.

Well, I guess I kind of moved on to the big picture, regarding differences in perspective. I was definately reminded of the time several years ago that my dad had ordered a smoked butt from a church group that was doing a fundraiser. He said they delivered the thing and it was black and burnt looking all over. He wrapped it back up and put it in the fridge for someone else to throw away. Seriously. Now we all know better, and are forgiving of dark bark as long as it tastes good, but the lay person has this silly idea of stuff that's 'bout black being burnt. Silly people, and silly me! I got wordy again!:-P

Dave

[MilitantSquatter]

This all started when I was thinking about how if you wanted greasy bbq, you should do just like all these folks are doing with the high heat temp cooks in a pan and foiling at 160 or whatever. Wow, it ends up moist (greasy)!

There are a lot of people here who foil, a growing # using high heat and a select few who use a pan...

I know kickassbbq (Ed) likes the pan and maybe a few others, but I don't recall more than a few who use all three.

[Dave Russell]

There are a lot of people here who foil, a growing # using high heat and a select few who use a pan...

I know kickassbbq (Ed) likes the pan and maybe a few others, but I don't recall more than a few who use all three.

Oh yeah, man. It's THE thing with a lot of folks, and you WILL get the moistest meat like this. It's only common sense. I was thinking about this after reading a guy brag about how moist and tender his butt ends up on another site: He smokes at 350, starting off in the pan, and then foiling at 160.....and like I said earlier, that's cool if that's what someone wants. If you get a chance to read my earlier posts you might get where I'm coming from. Basically, I was just pointing out that this is not the way to go if you have folks that are prone to complain about greasy bbq, but read anyway if you get a chance.

Regards,
Dave

[MilitantSquatter]

Thanks... I did read your earlier posts above too, just didn't realize you were referring to cooks using this method from other forums.

[Dave Russell]

Thanks... I did read your earlier posts above too, just didn't realize you were referring to cooks using this method from other forums.

I gotcha, Vinny. It was Chris A.'s twvb site. The posters there seem to be mostly concerned with finding ways to make the wsm cook faster, whether it's a clay pan or an upside down cracked door, and that's cool. I'm all about saving time. I just wanted to point out that the only folks I ever hear talking about 'Q being greasy are the non-cooks, especially when folks have figured out a way to "maximize" the greasiness by collecting it in a pan and foil and cooking in it. It's funny. Folks will start threads about how "gross" the stuff is that collects in wsm water pans, and then start putting their butt in a pan so as not to make a mess....lol..

Dave

[Chef Jim]

Well, I'm working on something for pulled pork to help keep it moist without overpowering the natural goodness and without washing out the flavor. So far it consists just of mixing the meat's juices from the resting foil (fat skimmed) w/ chicken broth, vinegar, worchester and cayenne. It beats apple juice, sauce, and/or pork grease by a mile. Just think of a little to go a long way in that part of the butt that's a little dry sometimes.

Dave

Dave, I like your idea, no sugar, no salt, seems au natural. :clap2:

Do you inject?

[drbbq]

You say greasy, I say delicious. You seem to be discounting that most people like the mouth feel of some fat in their BBQ and that the fat has tons of flavor. That's why we use pork butts, spare ribs, and why we all love prime beef.

I'd say if you don't want a little fat in your BBQ, pork butts probably aren't a good choice for you. To cook them until dry is a shame. Maybe try pork loin or boneless chicken breast.

How do you feel about bacon?

[jestridge]

Last few cooks I been using pan for butts, seem to do a good job for me. I never had a problem with dry pork butt , I always keep my cooker on 275-300

[Dave Russell]

You say greasy, I say delicious. You seem to be discounting that most people like the mouth feel of some fat in their BBQ and that the fat has tons of flavor. That's why we use pork butts, spare ribs, and why we all love prime beef.

I'd say if you don't want a little fat in your BBQ, pork butts probably aren't a good choice for you. To cook them until dry is a shame. Maybe try pork loin or boneless chicken breast.

How do you feel about bacon?

Ray....all in moderation, all in moderation. There's no need to throw out the baby butt with the pan grease.:-P

Obviously, a pork butt is a very fat rich piece of meat, but is it necessary to hold as much of that fat in the butt as possible? You say most prefer the mouth feel of a lot of fat, and I'll counter that one attribute of the vinegar sauces of N. Carolina is how they cut that richness. Some prefer THAT.

Please consider though, that I started this thread after thinking about what OTHERS had to say about some bbq, not myself. IOW, If someone tells me they don't like greasy bbq, I would think better than panning and foiling a butt, even though I wouldn't mind so much myself. It's really not that controversial or subjective if you consider some folks perspective.....more just a practical consideration that could be useful to some trying to please a crowd or ones with fat phobias.

Thanks for your feedback.
Dave

[campdude]

Dave, You got people worked up over fat. Most pork is pretty fatty,hence all the flavor. Doesn't mean it has to be swimming in it when you serve it. Myself, I don't mind it either way. My wife can't handle it so I try to cook more out without drying it out. I think foiling for to long dries the meat out more than not foiling. All the juice in the foil backs that up. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, which is the reason there are so many different flavors of Q out there. I just want to try as many as I can. Don't know if you like it if you don't try it. I can tell you I'm not a fan of NC vinegar based sauces but a few years ago when I was there I had Q 5 out of 7 days just to make sure!:decision:

[JD McGee]

Low-n-slow at home when I'm cookin' for the family...toss the butts on the bullet or BGE before I go to bed and the BBQ Gnomes work their magic for me while I'm snoozin'...:becky: Hot-n-fast with foil in pans for comps when I'm cookin' for the judges...I like my zzzzzzz's at night! :cool:

[Sean "Puffy" Coals]

I completely reject the notion of cooking butts in a pan the whole time....foiling, too, unless I'm running out of time. However, I need some good recipes for adding a bit of moisture back into butts when they occasionally end up a bit dry. I've just used apple juice before, but thought that took away from the flavor.

What if you foiled just the top and sides of the butts while they were on the smoker? It would retain some moisture and speed up the cooking time a little while allowing excess moisture and juices to drip out thru the un-foiled bottom so you wouldn't end up with the dreaded "meat flavored jello."

[Sean "Puffy" Coals]

I don't compete, so I cook for myself. It just so happens that pretty much everything I like is the same as what the family likes. I usually just make enough for me, my wife, her parents and her brother since we all live in the same house, butt I have taken some of my Q over to my parents & sister, my uncle and my cousins. My parents seem to think that BBQ is just a sauce (:crazy:) so they don't appreciate the different smoke wood flavors and some of the spiceyness of my rubs, but they never turn down my food... So, you know... :wink:

[Dave Russell]

Most pork is pretty fatty,hence all the flavor. Doesn't mean it has to be swimming in it when you serve it. Myself, I don't mind it either way.

My exact sentiments!

My point is that somewhere down the line, we ALL will cook for someone like your wife. Most probably already have though, and I don't need to wonder how it was assessed if the bbq was "swimming in it", as you say.

[Dave Russell]

What if you foiled just the top and sides of the butts while they were on the smoker? It would retain some moisture and speed up the cooking time a little while allowing excess moisture and juices to drip out thru the un-foiled bottom so you wouldn't end up with the dreaded "meat flavored jello."

Upside down pan butts? hmmmmm...I've never heard of that. :doh:

"Dreaded meat flavored jello"?... That's the stuff left in my wsm water pan, right? The stuff some folks have started threads about how to clean up and how it looks "gross" and all....Well, it must be good since competition bbq judges like butts basted with the stuff.:-P

[Dave Russell]

Low-n-slow at home when I'm cookin' for the family...toss the butts on the bullet or BGE before I go to bed and the BBQ Gnomes work their magic for me while I'm snoozin'...:becky: Hot-n-fast with foil in pans for comps when I'm cookin' for the judges...I like my zzzzzzz's at night! :cool:

JD, cool.

One queastion: why do judges like the panned hot-n-fast butt bark? Is there a secret to making the taste and texture as good as the low-n-slow bark? Just curious. I would think that to get the best score you would need to turn in the bark off a low-n-slow butt along with the richer meat of a hot-n-fast butt. :confused:

Just wonderin'
Dave