Pork Belly Mega questions thread

[Derek]

Since I'm not allowed to have salt or a curing solition can I do this?



Buy a case or 2 of Labatt's Azul ( blue ) and brine my belly in that curing mixture?

I know that the yeast in the beer will act like salt does, and I can drive the moisture out of the belly


And I'm sorry about the stupid questions folks.

[garyk1398]

I've cured only one pork belly in my lifetime and not sure how beer would work. Not sure how it would "drive moisture out of the belly" since it will be sitting in the beer for days! My belly was in a salt-curing solution for 14 days or so before I took it out. Either way, hope it works for you but kinda skeptical at this point.

I'll watch for others to chime in to see what they say.

[Derek]

I've cured only one pork belly in my lifetime and not sure how beer would work. Not sure how it would "drive moisture out of the belly" since it will be sitting in the beer for days! My belly was in a salt-curing solution for 14 days or so before I took it out. Either way, hope it works for you but kinda skeptical at this point.

I'll watch for others to chime in to see what they say.

I wish I could use salt though, It would make curing & smoking much easier.

[Chef Jim]

Ok, I'm going to get in trouble here, but, INJECT IT! Pork will take a chicken stock very well and not have an adverse effect on the flavor. It's the smoke flavor that I assume you want.

Make your own stock and you will know that there is no salt in it and you should be OK!

I make mine and freeze in ice cube trays to have handy all the time.

[Derek]

Ok, I'm going to get in trouble here, but, INJECT IT! Pork will take a chicken stock very well and not have an adverse effect on the flavor. It's the smoke flavor that I assume you want.

Make your own stock and you will know that there is no salt in it and you should be OK!

I make mine and freeze in ice cube trays to have handy all the time.And you still can make bacon slices?

[4TheLoveofBrisket]

Since I'm not allowed to have salt or a curing solition can I do this?



Buy a case or 2 of Labatt's Azul ( blue ) and brine my belly in that curing mixture?

I know that the yeast in the beer will act like salt does, and I can drive the moisture out of the belly


And I'm sorry about the stupid questions folks.

I've done a lot of reading on the subject of making bacon, though I've never done it (though it's on the list for this summer) but I am a sausage maker and therefore have read up extensively on the use of cures in general. I don't think it's a matter of driving the moisture out in so much as the nitrites in the cure are meant to slow/stop the formation of bacteria that would make you sick and or kill you. Typically bacon is cold smoked right? Therefore, at those temperatures you're going to be in the "danger zone". This is why you need to still cook bacon in some manner before you serve it, because it is still raw. For that matter, without the addition of the nitrite in the cure, your bacon would have a very short shelf life. I believe that the idea of packing the hog belly in salt and nitrites for days on end is so that the meat will absorb both the sodium and the nitrite throughout the meat. Also I think the salt is used more for flavoring than anything else, as salt in general is a good preservative for raw foods, but once you apply heat in the smoking process, again, you open the meat up to bacteria formation. Now, we all know that dehydrating meat is also a way to preserve it, such in the case of Jerky. But I don't think your idea of brining will work as well as one might think. First, a brine works by osmosis. Essentially, the moisture that is in the meat trades place with the liquid of brine because of the sodium content of the brine itself. Without the high salt content, if you allow your hog belly, or any other meat to sit in the beer, you're essentially marinating. The meat would theoretically just absorb the beer. Now, I definitely cannot speak to the curing properties of yeast, so I would definitely do some research on it before you try it. I'd suspect that the alcohol in the beer would act as a preservative while the meat is marinating in it, but I'm not sure that I would cold smoke it as the alcohol would theoretically turn to vapor at 173.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh and going back to the yeast I thought that commercially produced beer is usually pasteurized before bottling/kegging, so therefore the yeast would be killed during pasteurization. That and I know that yeast can't survive once the concentration of it's waste product (alcohol) gets too high, but I'm not sure what that level is. So even if yeast is an effective preservative, I'd be concerned as to how much yeast is still alive in the beer. Hope this helps!

If anyone notices any flaws in my logic, please correct me as I'm just spitting this all out from recollection. I am by no means an expert on the science behind curing meats, but I 'think' I have a pretty good understanding. That and I've never gotten sick from any of my sausage making escapades... :becky:

[BBQ Grail]

I've done a lot of reading on the subject of making bacon, though I've never done it (though it's on the list for this summer) but I am a sausage maker and therefore have read up extensively on the use of cures in general. I don't think it's a matter of driving the moisture out in so much as the nitrites in the cure are meant to slow/stop the formation of bacteria that would make you sick and or kill you. Typically bacon is cold smoked right? Therefore, at those temperatures you're going to be in the "danger zone". This is why you need to still cook bacon in some manner before you serve it, because it is still raw. For that matter, without the addition of the nitrite in the cure, your bacon would have a very short shelf life. I believe that the idea of packing the hog belly in salt and nitrites for days on end is so that the meat will absorb both the sodium and the nitrite throughout the meat. Also I think the salt is used more for flavoring than anything else, as salt in general is a good preservative for raw foods, but once you apply heat in the smoking process, again, you open the meat up to bacteria formation. Now, we all know that dehydrating meat is also a way to preserve it, such in the case of Jerky. But I don't think your idea of brining will work as well as one might think. First, a brine works by osmosis. Essentially, the moisture that is in the meat trades place with the liquid of brine because of the sodium content of the brine itself. Without the high salt content, if you allow your hog belly, or any other meat to sit in the beer, you're essentially marinating. The meat would theoretically just absorb the beer. Now, I definitely cannot speak to the curing properties of yeast, so I would definitely do some research on it before you try it. I'd suspect that the alcohol in the beer would act as a preservative while the meat is marinating in it, but I'm not sure that I would cold smoke it as the alcohol would theoretically turn to vapor at 173.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh and going back to the yeast I thought that commercially produced beer is usually pasteurized before bottling/kegging, so therefore the yeast would be killed during pasteurization. That and I know that yeast can't survive once the concentration of it's waste product (alcohol) gets too high, but I'm not sure what that level is. So even if yeast is an effective preservative, I'd be concerned as to how much yeast is still alive in the beer. Hope this helps!

If anyone notices any flaws in my logic, please correct me as I'm just spitting this all out from recollection. I am by no means an expert on the science behind curing meats, but I 'think' I have a pretty good understanding. That and I've never gotten sick from any of my sausage making escapades... :becky:

You have a very good understanding...

[Derek]

Thank you everyone for your help, I'll let you all know how it turned out.

[Derek]

I've done a lot of reading on the subject of making bacon, though I've never done it (though it's on the list for this summer) but I am a sausage maker and therefore have read up extensively on the use of cures in general.

I don't think it's a matter of driving the moisture out in so much as the nitrites in the cure are meant to slow/stop the formation of bacteria that would make you sick and or kill you.

Typically bacon is cold smoked right? Therefore, at those temperatures you're going to be in the "danger zone".

This is why you need to still cook bacon in some manner before you serve it, because it is still raw. For that matter, without the addition of the nitrite in the cure, your bacon would have a very short shelf life.

I believe that the idea of packing the hog belly in salt and nitrites for days on end is so that the meat will absorb both the sodium and the nitrite throughout the meat. Also I think the salt is used more for flavoring than anything else, as salt in general is a good preservative for raw foods, but once you apply heat in the smoking process, again, you open the meat up to bacteria formation.

Now, we all know that dehydrating meat is also a way to preserve it, such in the case of Jerky. But I don't think your idea of brining will work as well as one might think. First, a brine works by osmosis. Essentially, the moisture that is in the meat trades place with the liquid of brine because of the sodium content of the brine itself. Without the high salt content, if you allow your hog belly, or any other meat to sit in the beer, you're essentially marinating.

The meat would theoretically just absorb the beer. Now, I definitely cannot speak to the curing properties of yeast, so I would definitely do some research on it before you try it.

I'd suspect that the alcohol in the beer would act as a preservative while the meat is marinating in it, but I'm not sure that I would cold smoke it as the alcohol would theoretically turn to vapor at 173.1 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh and going back to the yeast I thought that commercially produced beer is usually pasteurized before bottling/kegging, so therefore the yeast would be killed during pasteurization.

That and I know that yeast can't survive once the concentration of it's waste product (alcohol) gets too high, but I'm not sure what that level is. So even if yeast is an effective preservative, I'd be concerned as to how much yeast is still alive in the beer. Hope this helps!

If anyone notices any flaws in my logic, please correct me as I'm just spitting this all out from recollection. I am by no means an expert on the science behind curing meats, but I 'think' I have a pretty good understanding. That and I've never gotten sick from any of my sausage making escapades... :becky:Thank you again for the help and logic.

I'm just going to normally smoke the pork belly 225 for 7+ hours ( should be enough to have it eating temp & killing germ temp....... But I'll research the belly more before I smoke it!

[Chef Jim]

Ok, I'm going to get in trouble here, but, INJECT IT! Pork will take a chicken stock very well and not have an adverse effect on the flavor. It's the smoke flavor that I assume you want.

Make your own stock and you will know that there is no salt in it and you should be OK!

I make mine and freeze in ice cube trays to have handy all the time.

OK, so I saw pork and not belly :doh:

[Derek]

OK, so I saw pork and not belly :doh:It's and I do appreciate the help guys.

[KnucklHed BBQ]

4TLOBrisket, I don't mean to pick on you, and I'm by no means an expert myself, but I'd like to elaborate on a few things you've said...


...Typically bacon is cold smoked right? Therefore, at those temperatures you're going to be in the "danger zone". This is why you need to still cook bacon in some manner before you serve it, because it is still raw.

Yes cold smoking is in the danger zone, but smoke itself has anti-bacterial properties. Indians used drying and smoking to cure meat even without salt. If the meat product is "clean" and free of bacteria and such before smoking, then it will be free of bacteria after smoking too.
The key is knowing if there is bacteria present before smoking, thus the use of salt and nitrites to kill off all bacteria.

Knowing where your meat comes from is also important - if you get it from a local farm/butcher you might have a bit more confidence in the meat's condition. From a mega-packer... who knows what has been done to the meat?

For that matter, without the addition of the nitrite in the cure, your bacon would have a very short shelf life. I believe that the idea of packing the hog belly in salt and nitrites for days on end is so that the meat will absorb both the sodium and the nitrite throughout the meat. Also I think the salt is used more for flavoring than anything else, as salt in general is a good preservative for raw foods, but once you apply heat in the smoking process, again, you open the meat up to bacteria formation.

Well, kinda... long before anyone knew about nitrates and nitrites, salt was used with great success. Bacteria is unable to grow in the high alkalinity and low moisture environment that salt creates...

The nitrites & nitrates are what gives much of the "bacony" flavor and pink color as we know it, otherwise it tastes more like cooked pork...


Oh and going back to the yeast I thought that commercially produced beer is usually pasteurized before bottling/kegging, so therefore the yeast would be killed during pasteurization. That and I know that yeast can't survive once the concentration of it's waste product (alcohol) gets too high, but I'm not sure what that level is. So even if yeast is an effective preservative, I'd be concerned as to how much yeast is still alive in the beer. Hope this helps!

Typically most yeast does not start dying due to high alcohol content until around 13 - 14% or so - some strains will survive till 19 - 20%.

In any case, alcohol is not a preservative that keeps bacteria from growing. Once alcohol is no longer present, bacteria is free to grow again. Alcohol content in the 3-5% range found in most beers is not likely to kill all bacteria. If you think about it, we're really talking about 95 - 97% water with a little bit of alcohol added.

As for yeast preserving... dunno, never heard of it being used as such. If you really wanted to try you could get bulk brewer's yeast from any health foods store. It might be pasturized tho...

The more I think about it tho, yeast naturally consumes sugars (some strains like simple sugars, some like complex, some will eat both) and protiens (again, simple & complex). They in themselves are an organism, I jsut don't see them bythemselves preserving anything. Their waste products are typically alcohol and CO2... nothing that will produce a cure there either...


Now, for a couple of suggestions - there are a few uncured bacon products hitting the market lately.

This is what 1 manf had to say about the difference between cured and uncured:
"Despite USDA regulations, it's probably more accurate to say that our uncured products are naturally cured. Instead of adding nitrate or nitrite chemicals, we use celery juice, a source of naturally occurring nitrates. During processing, the nitrates in celery juice are consumed by lacto bacteria--anaerobic organisms similar to the friendly bacteria in yogurt--that like a salty environment. Over time during the natural curing process, the nitrate in celery juice is consumed by the lacto bacteria and converted first to nitrite, then to nitrous oxide, a gas that dissipates into the atmosphere. The amount of natural nitrates remaining in the finished product depends on whether and when the meat is cooked, as cooking halts the dissipation process. Like cured products, natural curing inhibits bacteria, helps prevent meat from going off-color, and deepens flavor. "

I have also seen on a couple of the packages that celery seed seems to be used as a curing agent. But they also use salt... You might be able to "brine" your belly's in a ground cellery seed bath for a week or so to try it.

On the topic of salt, you say that you can't have any... does "any" mean absolutely zero?

If you just need a really low salt content, here's another thing you could try:
Use morton's tender quick (yes it has salt) but I only use 1/2 the amount it calls for on the pkg (1tbs, I use 1/2 tbs). It may take a little longer for a thick piece to cure, but belly's aren't that thick. You can also cut the belly's into smaller chunks to shorten the cure time.

Once you've reached your 7 days or so, do this:
Rinse the belly well, rubbing it as you rinse to get as much salt off as possible.
Slice off a small piece, fry it up and see how salty it is. If too salty, place belly's in a pan of water for a few hours up to a day or 2.
You can cook up a slice periodically to check for saltiness.

This works on the principal of reverse osmosis, the salt & nitrites were pulled into the meat due to osmosis, now some will be pulled back out.

Once the desired salt level is reached, smoke them suckers for 5 -6 hours on a very cold smoke (I usually shoot for below 100* and prefer the smoke to be around 75'ish)

Let us know how it turns out!!

[Derek]

4TLOBrisket, I don't mean to pick on you, and I'm by no means an expert myself, but I'd like to elaborate on a few things you've said...



Now, for a couple of suggestions - there are a few uncured bacon products hitting the market lately.

This is what 1 manf had to say about the difference between cured and uncured:
"Despite USDA regulations, it's probably more accurate to say that our uncured products are naturally cured. Instead of adding nitrate or nitrite chemicals, we use celery juice, a source of naturally occurring nitrates. During processing, the nitrates in celery juice are consumed by lacto bacteria--anaerobic organisms similar to the friendly bacteria in yogurt--that like a salty environment. Over time during the natural curing process, the nitrate in celery juice is consumed by the lacto bacteria and converted first to nitrite, then to nitrous oxide, a gas that dissipates into the atmosphere. The amount of natural nitrates remaining in the finished product depends on whether and when the meat is cooked, as cooking halts the dissipation process. Like cured products, natural curing inhibits bacteria, helps prevent meat from going off-color, and deepens flavor. "

I have also seen on a couple of the packages that celery seed seems to be used as a curing agent. But they also use salt... You might be able to "brine" your belly's in a ground cellery seed bath for a week or so to try it.

On the topic of salt, you say that you can't have any... does "any" mean absolutely zero?

If you just need a really low salt content, here's another thing you could try:
Use morton's tender quick (yes it has salt) but I only use 1/2 the amount it calls for on the pkg (1tbs, I use 1/2 tbs). It may take a little longer for a thick piece to cure, but belly's aren't that thick. You can also cut the belly's into smaller chunks to shorten the cure time.

Once you've reached your 7 days or so, do this:
Rinse the belly well, rubbing it as you rinse to get as much salt off as possible.
Slice off a small piece, fry it up and see how salty it is. If too salty, place belly's in a pan of water for a few hours up to a day or 2.
You can cook up a slice periodically to check for saltiness.

This works on the principal of reverse osmosis, the salt & nitrites were pulled into the meat due to osmosis, now some will be pulled back out.

Once the desired salt level is reached, smoke them suckers for 5 -6 hours on a very cold smoke (I usually shoot for below 100* and prefer the smoke to be around 75'ish)

Let us know how it turns out!!Thank you for the read man. And no I can have 1800 sodium per day and that's 600-700 at breakfast, lunch, dinner time.



So if I can get my whole pork belly with the natral salt of the animal and the added salt around 500-800 sodium mg, that will end up like 180 to 200 for 3 slices of bacon ( I'm going to cut mine thick ).

[4TheLoveofBrisket]

4TLOBrisket, I don't mean to pick on you, and I'm by no means an expert myself, but I'd like to elaborate on a few things you've said...



Now, for a couple of suggestions - there are a few uncured bacon products hitting the market lately.

This is what 1 manf had to say about the difference between cured and uncured:
"Despite USDA regulations, it's probably more accurate to say that our uncured products are naturally cured. Instead of adding nitrate or nitrite chemicals, we use celery juice, a source of naturally occurring nitrates. During processing, the nitrates in celery juice are consumed by lacto bacteria--anaerobic organisms similar to the friendly bacteria in yogurt--that like a salty environment. Over time during the natural curing process, the nitrate in celery juice is consumed by the lacto bacteria and converted first to nitrite, then to nitrous oxide, a gas that dissipates into the atmosphere. The amount of natural nitrates remaining in the finished product depends on whether and when the meat is cooked, as cooking halts the dissipation process. Like cured products, natural curing inhibits bacteria, helps prevent meat from going off-color, and deepens flavor. "

I have also seen on a couple of the packages that celery seed seems to be used as a curing agent. But they also use salt... You might be able to "brine" your belly's in a ground cellery seed bath for a week or so to try it.

On the topic of salt, you say that you can't have any... does "any" mean absolutely zero?

If you just need a really low salt content, here's another thing you could try:
Use morton's tender quick (yes it has salt) but I only use 1/2 the amount it calls for on the pkg (1tbs, I use 1/2 tbs). It may take a little longer for a thick piece to cure, but belly's aren't that thick. You can also cut the belly's into smaller chunks to shorten the cure time.

Once you've reached your 7 days or so, do this:
Rinse the belly well, rubbing it as you rinse to get as much salt off as possible.
Slice off a small piece, fry it up and see how salty it is. If too salty, place belly's in a pan of water for a few hours up to a day or 2.
You can cook up a slice periodically to check for saltiness.

This works on the principal of reverse osmosis, the salt & nitrites were pulled into the meat due to osmosis, now some will be pulled back out.

Once the desired salt level is reached, smoke them suckers for 5 -6 hours on a very cold smoke (I usually shoot for below 100* and prefer the smoke to be around 75'ish)

Let us know how it turns out!!

No offense taken :-D

[Derek]

Hello everyone.

This will be my final pork belly thread,
And any future questions I have about pork belly will be place in this thread.


That being said I have a question about re freezing pork belly after it's been smoked?

I like to know if you can re freeze pork belly after it's been fully smoked and sliced on my slicer?

[bigabyte]

Yes. The same as freezing bacon basically.:wink:

[dataz722]

I was just about to ask the same question. The only way I can get bellies is frozen and I know you aren't supposed to refreeze thawed meat because it destroys the texture. Would the curing process negate that?

[bigabyte]

Once it has been cured and smoked to 140 internal, it is no longer raw meat, it is bacon. It is no different than freezing other mets you have smoked or cooked after thawing them.

[Derek]

Yes. The same as freezing bacon basically.:wink:Ok thank you bud.

I was just about to ask the same question. The only way I can get bellies is frozen and I know you aren't supposed to refreeze thawed meat because it destroys the texture. Would the curing process negate that?LOL, I'm not sure I was going to ask that question next! LOL!

Guess great minds think alike man.


Since I'm not curing my pbelly I'm fully going to smoke mine at 225 for 8 to 12 hours. And then cut it into slab bacon slices!

[dataz722]

Once it has been cured and smoked, it is no longer raw meat, it is bacon. It is no different than freezing other mets you have smoked or cooked after thawing them.

If you cold smoke like I plan to then it would still be raw meat though. Cured and smoked but still raw.

[Derek]

If you cold smoke like I plan to then it would still be raw meat though. Cured and smoked but still raw.Yeah that's true man.
But I can't use a curing solution though because of my salt restriction!

[bigabyte]

Derek, since you are not curing the belly with a curing agent, you always have this option if you ever find yourself capable of doing so equipment-wise.

The smoke ring you seen in BBQ meats is cured meat. The difference between it and something that has cured in a curing agent for days on end is due to cure penetration.

The smoke ring is formed from a reaction between Nitrogen Dioxide in the gases released from burning wood, and the water on the surface of meat, which combines and forms Nitrous Acid. This Nitrous Acid is absorbed into the meat and reacts with the Myoglobin in the meat, which is in a nutshell curing the meat.

These chemical reactions stop when the meat hits about 140 degrees, and is why the smoke ring stops at a certain depth on the outside of the meat. If the meat never reached these temps, then you could literally "smoke cure" the meat all the way through to the center. However, you would need to ensure the food stays sanitary and in food safe temp ranges during that time.

If you could smoke your pork belly at temps between say 35 and 40 degrees, it would be as safe as storing it in the fridge, but applying smoke the whole time and curing it. Since a pork belly is not super thick, you could be able to cure it before any of it starts going bad. The trick is holding these temps while applying smoke.

So, you could get real bacon, cured bacon, without the added cures/salts, by simply using cold smoke. Your electric smoker probably can not give you this operating range, but it is something to think about.

Another thing you should check on is whether or not smoked meats is OK for you to eat. Recall that the smoke ring is cured meat. The difference is what you used to get to that end result. So are you simply restricted from sodium, or from cured meats.

To assist you in determining this, consider that Nitrous Acid is formed and combines with the meat to form Nitric Oxide Myoglobin, which in turn when heated becomes Nitrosylhemachrome, which is red in color and is in essence, the "smoke ring".

[Derek]

Derek, since you are not curing the belly with a curing agent, you always have this option if you ever find yourself capable of doing so equipment-wise.

The smoke ring you seen in BBQ meats is cured meat. The difference between it and something that has cured in a curing agent for days on end is due to cure penetration.

The smoke ring is formed from a reaction between Nitrogen Dioxide in the gases released from burning wood, and the water on the surface of meat, which combines and forms Nitrous Acid. This Nitrous Acid is absorbed into the meat and reacts with the Myoglobin in the meat, which is in a nutshell curing the meat.

These chemical reactions stop when the meat hits about 140 degrees, and is why the smoke ring stops at a certain depth on the outside of the meat. If the meat never reached these temps, then you could literally "smoke cure" the meat all the way through to the center. However, you would need to ensure the food stays sanitary and in food safe temp ranges during that time.

If you could smoke your pork belly at temps between say 35 and 40 degrees, it would be as safe as storing it in the fridge, but applying smoke the whole time and curing it. Since a pork belly is not super thick, you could be able to cure it before any of it starts going bad. The trick is holding these temps while applying smoke.

So, you could get real bacon, cured bacon, without the added cures/salts, by simply using cold smoke. Your electric smoker probably can not give you this operating range, but it is something to think about.

Another thing you should check on is whether or not smoked meats is OK for you to eat. Recall that the smoke ring is cured meat. The difference is what you used to get to that end result. So are you simply restricted from sodium, or from cured meats.

To assist you in determining this, consider that Nitrous Acid is formed and combines with the meat to form Nitric Oxide Myoglobin, which in turn when heated becomes Nitrosylhemachrome, which is red in color and is in essence, the "smoke ring".bigabyte, Really as long as I can hold a temp of 35-40 possible 45?


With out the use of salt? And I should do the cold smoke for how long? 12 hours?


Thank you very very much for the help in your post here I've read it all.

[bigabyte]

You need to keep the meat at 40 or below for it to be food safe. Think food safe refrigerator temps. So make 40 your high end on the temp variance. I don't honestly know how long, having never actually done it myself. This is old smokehouse type cooking, like cold smoked hams and stuff. Cowgirl has a smokehouse and would quite likely know an approximate time frame.

[Derek]

You need to keep the meat at 40 or below for it to be food safe. Think food safe refrigerator temps. So make 40 your high end on the temp variance.I can do that with the mes smoker I think!

It stays around the target very well!

[bigabyte]

Also, another thing to keep in mind when looking for info on cold smoking meats like bacon at low temps like this, is that this is old style smoking, and back then they would use tons of salt to help keep the meat safe during the smoking. They would typically be smoked in a warm environment, comfortable enough for people to be in the smokehouse. However, since you do NOT want salts, you have to find another means to keep the food safe, which in your case will be the temps the meat is stored at. You want to basically store it at temps like you have in the refrigerator. That way, the meat will be as good for as long as it would last in the fridge. If you can get the cure to fully penetrate in that time, then you should be just fine. I have no hands on experience here, just advice on how you should proceed in trying it.

[bigabyte]

Derek, I got your PM, and think some of that should be shared here.

When you are curing the meat like this, in just smoke at 40 degrees, you are not going to know how far the cure has penetrated. I would think you could let it go for 24 hours the first time to see what happens. Once it is done curing, then cook it low and slow until it hits 140 internal temp. This brings the meat to a food safe done temp. After doing this, the meat will have turned pink and when you slice it you will see how far the cure penetrated. You can then freeze these slices as you please, and fry them up like regular bacon.

[Derek]

Man I'm so confused now, I'm not sure what the heck to do!

[Derek]

And I don't want you guys mad at me because I'm still not understanding this!

I know about the pink ring now and penetration!

[bigabyte]

Did I say too much?:biggrin1:

[Derek]

Did I say too much?:biggrin1:No you didn't, I think my newbie is showing.

[bigabyte]

Here, in one post, I will try to describe the process from end to end. If I forgot something, well, hopefully I don't because would invalidate the point of me trying to describe this process from beginning to end.

First, get yourself a cold smoker which you can maintain temps at or just below 40 degrees RELIABLY for a 24 hour period.

Then, get yourself a pork belly and put it in the smoker and smoke it at or just below 40 degrees for 24 hours. You may be able to do less time, maybe you will need a little more time. This is where I would start.

Once it has cold smoked at 40 degrees for 24 hours, you are ready to pre-cook it. The pre-cooking is to take it to a food-safe done temperature that will still allow you to do the actual cooking of the bacon to crisp it up later. This is the EXACT same method printed on the Buckboard Bacon instructions so many people buy in a Buckboard Bacon kit from a box...

Cook it low and slow, say 225 degrees, until the meat hits 140 degrees internal. At this point the meat is cooked and now food safe for storage again, but is not fully cooked like you would want your bacon (that cooking will be done later). Slice and freeze/refrigerate immediately.

Looking at these slices now will tell you how far the cure penetrated. You can not know this until after you have cooked the meat and brought it safely to 140 degrees. If it is pink all the way to the middle, then the cure went all the way. If it is not all the way to the center, then add some more time to the smoke curing next time. It will still be safe to eat, but the center of the bacon will taste more like pork than bacon.

When you want to fry up some bacon, or however you wish to prepare it, take some of your slices and cook them up.

Hope this helps. If you want to add a rub or something before you cold smoke it, feel free. Think about the bacon slabs coated in black pepper for example...

[Derek]

Here, in one post, I will try to describe the process from end to end. If I forgot something, well, hopefully I don't because would invalidate the point of me trying to describe this process from beginning to end.

First, get yourself a cold smoker which you can maintain temps at or just below 40 degrees RELIABLY for a 24 hour period.

Then, get yourself a pork belly and put it in the smoker and smoke it at or just below 40 degrees for 24 hours. You may be able to do less time, maybe you will need a little more time. This is where I would start.

Once it has cold smoked at 40 degrees for 24 hours, you are ready to pre-cook it. The pre-cooking is to take it to a food-safe done temperature that will still allow you to do the actual cooking of the bacon to crisp it up later. This is the EXACT same method printed on the Buckboard Bacon instructions so many people buy in a Buckboard Bacon kit from a box...

Cook it low and slow, say 225 degrees, until the meat hits 140 degrees internal. At this point the meat is cooked and now food safe for storage again, but is not fully cooked like you would want your bacon (that cooking will be done later). Slice and freeze/refrigerate immediately.

Looking at these slices now will tell you how far the cure penetrated. You can not know this until after you have cooked the meat and brought it safely to 140 degrees. If it is pink all the way to the middle, then the cure went all the way. If it is not all the way to the center, then add some more time to the smoke curing next time. It will still be safe to eat, but the center of the bacon will taste more like pork than bacon.

When you want to fry up some bacon, or however you wish to prepare it, take some of your slices and cook them up.

Hope this helps. If you want to add a rub or something before you cold smoke it, feel free. Think about the bacon slabs coated in black pepper for example...Thank you Man.

Yes it does help a lot better, but does this mean I have to buy a second smoker? Or can I buy an adapter?

[bigabyte]

Beats me. I do not know of a smoker that operates at these ranges. I have cold smoked cheese for a couple hours at these temps on a cold day, where I am basically "warming" the cooker up to just 40 degrees, but I am not aware of one that would easily maintain a steady 40 degrees over a long period in various climates. Except for maybe a refrigerator. But I'm not sure how you could turn a working refrigerator into a working cold smoker to smoke at 40 degrees off the top of my head. Could be a project for those that are good at building smokers and have refrigeration knowledge. I have thought in the past about trying this myself just as an experiment, but because I had no reasonable way to cook at 40 degrees for a long period of time, I never tried this experiment.

Keep in mind this is all hypothetical, a proposed experiment really. The logic is rock solid, but I have no personal experience doing this, and it's possible nobody else here does either, so the results are unknown. If someone does have this experience, please chime in.

[Derek]

Thank you again BigAByte

[BBQ Grail]

All great information. I've found this really quite interesting.

But if you soak pork belly in beer and then smoke it all you're going going to have is smoked pork belly that's been soaked in beer. Not bacon.

Yeast will not cure pork belly and be safe to eat. I think one should exercise some caution here.

Google "cure" and "yeast" or "curing" and "yeast" and I think you'll see there is nothing close. I've looked through all my charcuterie books and have nothing on curing with yeast.

Bigabyte has some great information and he's an experienced "smoker". I'd be comfortable with him doing this. But "curing" with just smoke is a risky thing and one must have some serious controls over this process. And someone doing something like this for the first time with limited experience concerns me.

And it's not going to taste like "bacon" as you would normally get at the store.

I just think it's important to understand the risk for bacteria borne illnesses is a possibility without curing it the old fashion way.

I hate to be a downer here, but just please be careful.

[4TheLoveofBrisket]

I just want to throw out there that there also is such a thing as a sugar cure. Morton makes a couple. But it does contain sodium as well as nitrites. I haven't been able to find a breakdown on the levels though, but I would assume that it is less sodium than say Tenderquick. Also, for the amount of sodium in instacure or prague #1, and with as little as you use per pound of meat, I'd think that it would be a neglegible amount of sodium added. The problem then becomes what medium do you use to combine it with with to pack the meat into for the cure process? This, I do not have the answer to. I do know that there are lower sodium bacons out there on the commercial market, but I'm not sure if those even fit into Derek's dietary guidelines? If they do, perhaps some investigation into their cure process would help.

[Derek]

Hey gang.

I was talking with my folks about the smoking process of the pork belly. And I was telling them there might not be any way other way then soaking the belly in a salt brine solution.


So I was thinking if most brine's use 2-3 gallons of water with 1-1 half cups of salt, Why can't I use 1/4th cup salt in 1-2 gallons of water since I've only got 2 pounds pork belly?

[bigabyte]

Your question is difficult to answer. Brining as i know it requires anywhere from 1/2 to 1 cup per gallon of water, any less and it will not be sufficiently strong enough to penetrate, and any more being wasteful salt-wise.

In my opinion, gambling with a weakened preservative is risky. Since a pastrami can take a few days to cure, you are really taking a chance of that meat going bad in a weakened solution.

Also, brining is not curing. The reason salt is in cured meat is as a means to prevent the growth of harmful organisms. The cure is a different thing, which causes a chemical reaction in the meat causing it to change color when cooked. Two different things entirely. Smoke is also a preservative, preventing bad things from growing.

I would type out more, but gotta go. Just keep in mind the most important thing is the preservative. Be it salt, smoke, whatever, jsut so long as the meat stays safe. The whole curing agent, well, not so important. you can make corned beef without cure using just salt, and it tastes the same but has a different color. The cure just gives it that awesome color. It looks tastier than the grey color you get from preserved meat that does not use it.

[Derek]

Your question is difficult to answer. Brining as i know it requires anywhere from 1/2 to 1 cup per gallon of water, any less and it will not be sufficiently strong enough to penetrate, and any more being wasteful salt-wise.

In my opinion, gambling with a weakened preservative is risky. Since a pastrami can take a few days to cure, you are really taking a chance of that meat going bad in a weakened solution.

Also, brining is not curing. The reason salt is in cured meat is as a means to prevent the growth of harmful organisms. The cure is a different thing, which causes a chemical reaction in the meat causing it to change color when cooked. Two different things entirely. Smoke is also a preservative, preventing bad things from growing.

I would type out more, but gotta go. Just keep in mind the most important thing is the preservative. Be it salt, smoke, whatever, jsut so long as the meat stays safe. The whole curing agent, well, not so important. you can make corned beef without cure using just salt, and it tastes the same but has a different color. The cure just gives it that awesome color. It looks tastier than the grey color you get from preserved meat that does not use it.Thank you for trying man.

I don't know what to do still even though this thread has some awesome advice & information!

[4TheLoveofBrisket]

Thank you for trying man.

I don't know what to do still even though this thread has some awesome advice & information!

My advice would be to be very very careful, and try to find a documented case of a lower sodium cure because botulism is nothing to play around with!!! If I get some time, I'll try to research what they did back a long time ago for cures before modern chemistry found the present day sodium nitrite as a cure agent. I'm sure there's something out there, but whether or not sodium chloride will play a major role in it remains to be seen. And even if there is a no sodium/low sodium cure out there, it may still have some inherent dangers involved with it. Remember, the stomachs of our ancestors were probably a lot more hardier than ours today. :becky:

[Derek]

My advice would be to be very very careful, and try to find a documented case of a lower sodium cure because botulism is nothing to play around with!!! If I get some time, I'll try to research what they did back a long time ago for cures before modern chemistry found the present day sodium nitrite as a cure agent. I'm sure there's something out there, but whether or not sodium chloride will play a major role in it remains to be seen. And even if there is a no sodium/low sodium cure out there, it may still have some inherent dangers involved with it. Remember, the stomachs of our ancestors were probably a lot more hardier than ours today. :becky:Again thank you for the help. I know you guys are giving me some sound avice and I really really appreciate it BIG TIME! So I'll leave the Pbelly in the freezer and I'm going to research it as well!

[Derek]

Ok I got a question for you math wizard's.


Ok I've picked up my last pork but from a super market that had 4% salt brine sulution and the sodium was pretty good for the 3.3 pond butt. And the sodium content was something like 55mg of sod for 4 oz.


So what would be the salt ratio in that brine? And can I use it that same percentage in the pork belly brine?

[bigabyte]

Ok, I'm back with some things to share. I didn't have time to really think these out earlier and put them down, so here goes.

Let's start with some simple Q&A before applying any techniques to the meat.

Q. What IS "cured meat" exactly? Is it pink, is it preserved, is it both?
A. In it's purest sense, it is just preserved. However, most people associate that pink color along with the taste to cured meat and are looking for that pink color. The pink color is caused by nitrates which have absorbed into the meat, which when heated causes the meat to turn pink. These nitrates themselves are not necessarily preservatives, and their only function is to color the meat. The reason for this coloring is to show how far the cure absorbed into the meat. If you had a brisket curing in the fridge for 10 days, and after cooking it you saw it was not pink all the way to the middle, you would know it is not safe to eat just by looking at it. This is the benefit of a curing agent, to let you know how far it penetrated in the event that incomplete penetration would equal dangerouse to eat.

Q. If the cure is just to make it pink, what are the preservatives for?
A. To keep harmful organisms from growing in your meat which could make you ill or possibly even dead. Many cured meats are stored for long periods of time in an uncooked state, which without these preservatives they would go bad. They are also useful to keep things from growing in the meat after it is prepared so it can be stored at non-refrigerated temps (jerky, snak stix for example).

Examples of preservatives in the scope of Bacon and Pastrami are Salt and Smoke.

Salt is an ancient preservative. People have been using salt to preserve meats for what seems like forever. A really basic meat preservation technique used in ages past was to simply pack the meat in a whole bunch of salt (think like a crate of salt with a ham in it for simplicity sake) and let it sit there in the salt until they were ready to eat it. It did not need refrigeration, they did not have refrigerators back then, but rest assured they did this in a cool shady place. The reason they did this is because when an animal was slaughtered, some parts would go bad before people could eat it all, and they could not put it in the fridge or freezer, so they found ways they could preserve the meat for later use. Even modern day smoked hams, bacon, etc all still have lots of salt. Salt is not a "curing agent" though, in the sense that it does not make the meat turn pink when you cook it. So if you take that ham that was packed in the salt crate, cook it and eat it, you will have no way to see how far the salt penetrated into the meat and preserved it. Thus, if the meat spoiled before it was fully preserved, you would be eating tainted meat and not know it until it was too late.

Smoke is also a preservative. It actually does prevent spoilage of meat. How effective it is on it's own without salt is not known to me. Basically all meats that have been smoked as part of preservation that I know of have all used salt. So it is possible that smoke on its own is not sufficient, but I simply can not find any information on this. It is possible it works fine, but then if that is true, why isn't this well known since meat preservation has been going on for centuries? If smoke alone can sufficiently preserve meat, then this could be an option for you. Recall that salt was used to keep the meat safe at non-refrigerated temps. If you can keep the meat safe at refrigerated temps, and fully cure the meat with just smoke before the meat goes bad in the refrigerator, then it is quite reasonable to assume this could work. But it is still an assumption of course.

Smoke is also a curing agent. Smoke does put nitrates into the meat so that when it is cooked it turns pink. So when you cook the food, you will be able to tell if the smoke fully penetrated the meat by seeing if it is pink throughout. So if you preserve it cold in the fridge using only smoke, once cooked you could see how successful you were. If the cure did not fully penetrate and the meat could have spoiled in the time it took to cure it before smoking then simply don't eat it. If the meat did not have long enough to spoil while curing (say 24 hours in the fridge) before cooking it, then it should be safe to eat but it will not be pink throughout.

Taking this information above, we know that all preserved meats that we know of today have salt. Salt is a major flavor, one fo the 5 basic flavors the tongue picks up. So part of the flavor of these preserved meats is going to come from this salt. If you remove this salt from the meats and are able to still successfully preserve and/or cure them, I am not sure if they would taste the same as their salty counterparts. However, with the smoke and the cure, they might not taste like their non-smoked, non-cured counterparts either. Think about chicken meat and Tenderquick. Many of us have tried that, and report the chicken tastes "Hammy". How much of that hammy flavor is the salt, and how much is the cure? It's hard to say. When I brine chicken with salt, it is loaded with salt and does not taste as hammy as it does with Tenderquick, so I "THINK" that the hammy flavor comes more from the cure than the salt. Because of that, I like to think that a pork belly fully cured in only smoke and no salt, while preserved in refrigerator temps of 40 degrees, would taste like bacon.

It's just a guess though.

Please though, try not to focus on the "cure" or the "brine". Focus on "Preservation" and "Food Safety". That way you can tinker around with the cure and brine stuff because you will still be healthy in between sessions.

Hope this helps and I'm not being confusing.

[Derek]

Ok, I'm back with some things to share. I didn't have time to really think these out earlier and put them down, so here goes.

Let's start with some simple Q&A before applying any techniques to the meat.

Q. What IS "cured meat" exactly? Is it pink, is it preserved, is it both?
A. In it's purest sense, it is just preserved. However, most people associate that pink color along with the taste to cured meat and are looking for that pink color. The pink color is caused by nitrates which have absorbed into the meat, which when heated causes the meat to turn pink. These nitrates themselves are not necessarily preservatives, and their only function is to color the meat. The reason for this coloring is to show how far the cure absorbed into the meat. If you had a brisket curing in the fridge for 10 days, and after cooking it you saw it was not pink all the way to the middle, you would know it is not safe to eat just by looking at it. This is the benefit of a curing agent, to let you know how far it penetrated in the event that incomplete penetration would equal dangerouse to eat.

Q. If the cure is just to make it pink, what are the preservatives for?
A. To keep harmful organisms from growing in your meat which could make you ill or possibly even dead. Many cured meats are stored for long periods of time in an uncooked state, which without these preservatives they would go bad. They are also useful to keep things from growing in the meat after it is prepared so it can be stored at non-refrigerated temps (jerky, snak stix for example).

Examples of preservatives in the scope of Bacon and Pastrami are Salt and Smoke.

Salt is an ancient preservative. People have been using salt to preserve meats for what seems like forever. A really basic meat preservation technique used in ages past was to simply pack the meat in a whole bunch of salt (think like a crate of salt with a ham in it for simplicity sake) and let it sit there in the salt until they were ready to eat it. It did not need refrigeration, they did not have refrigerators back then, but rest assured they did this in a cool shady place. The reason they did this is because when an animal was slaughtered, some parts would go bad before people could eat it all, and they could not put it in the fridge or freezer, so they found ways they could preserve the meat for later use. Even modern day smoked hams, bacon, etc all still have lots of salt. Salt is not a "curing agent" though, in the sense that it does not make the meat turn pink when you cook it. So if you take that ham that was packed in the salt crate, cook it and eat it, you will have no way to see how far the salt penetrated into the meat and preserved it. Thus, if the meat spoiled before it was fully preserved, you would be eating tainted meat and not know it until it was too late.

Smoke is also a preservative. It actually does prevent spoilage of meat. How effective it is on it's own without salt is not known to me. Basically all meats that have been smoked as part of preservation that I know of have all used salt. So it is possible that smoke on its own is not sufficient, but I simply can not find any information on this. It is possible it works fine, but then if that is true, why isn't this well known since meat preservation has been going on for centuries? If smoke alone can sufficiently preserve meat, then this could be an option for you. Recall that salt was used to keep the meat safe at non-refrigerated temps. If you can keep the meat safe at refrigerated temps, and fully cure the meat with just smoke before the meat goes bad in the refrigerator, then it is quite reasonable to assume this could work. But it is still an assumption of course.

Smoke is also a curing agent. Smoke does put nitrates into the meat so that when it is cooked it turns pink. So when you cook the food, you will be able to tell if the smoke fully penetrated the meat by seeing if it is pink throughout. So if you preserve it cold in the fridge using only smoke, once cooked you could see how successful you were. If the cure did not fully penetrate and the meat could have spoiled in the time it took to cure it before smoking then simply don't eat it. If the meat did not have long enough to spoil while curing (say 24 hours in the fridge) before cooking it, then it should be safe to eat but it will not be pink throughout.

Taking this information above, we know that all preserved meats that we know of today have salt. Salt is a major flavor, one fo the 5 basic flavors the tongue picks up. So part of the flavor of these preserved meats is going to come from this salt. If you remove this salt from the meats and are able to still successfully preserve and/or cure them, I am not sure if they would taste the same as their salty counterparts. However, with the smoke and the cure, they might not taste like their non-smoked, non-cured counterparts either. Think about chicken meat and Tenderquick. Many of us have tried that, and report the chicken tastes "Hammy". How much of that hammy flavor is the salt, and how much is the cure? It's hard to say. When I brine chicken with salt, it is loaded with salt and does not taste as hammy as it does with Tenderquick, so I "THINK" that the hammy flavor comes more from the cure than the salt. Because of that, I like to think that a pork belly fully cured in only smoke and no salt, while preserved in refrigerator temps of 40 degrees, would taste like bacon.

It's just a guess though.

Please though, try not to focus on the "cure" or the "brine". Focus on "Preservation" and "Food Safety". That way you can tinker around with the cure and brine stuff because you will still be healthy in between sessions.

Hope this helps and I'm not being confusing.It does a little and now it sounds I will have to give up some of my most favorite meats even if I do them at home.

Man this farking sucks big time. Why can't I enjoy life and eat anything I want too. Oh well I should be thankful I'm alive and should probably just eat bland cat or dog food, LOL!

[bigabyte]

I feel your frustration, I really do. I was pretty frustrated myself realizing I couldn't test out the "cold smoke" preservation technique myself. However, I was able to let that experiment go easier than you will probably be able to let go of bacon and pastrami. I wanted to experiment with it as part of some Smoke Ring experiments I was doing. I wanted to see if a smoke ring WOULD actually fully penetrate if the meat never hit 140 degrees, and then additionally see what it would taste like, meaning i had to keep it safe (40 degrees) while doing so, and only for as long as the meat is good in the fridge (I would have done 2, maybe a much as 3 days max).

[KnucklHed BBQ]

Bigs, I have a couple of thoughts on your post... please correct me where I am wrong! After all, you, not I, are the Mad BBQ Scientist!!!

Oh and this gets kinda long... bear with me though!


Q. What IS "cured meat" exactly? Is it pink, is it preserved, is it both?
A. In it's purest sense, it is just preserved. However, most people associate that pink color along with the taste to cured meat and are looking for that pink color. The pink color is caused by nitrates which have absorbed into the meat, which when heated causes the meat to turn pink. These nitrates themselves are not necessarily preservatives, and their only function is to color the meat. The reason for this coloring is to show how far the cure absorbed into the meat.

Need to clarify here Chris... Sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite ARE the preservatives. The ingredients as shown on a bag of TQ says this: salt, sugar, sodium nitrate (preservative) sodium nitrite (preservative), proplyene gycol

The nitrates made by the chemical reaction when smoking (smoke ring) would not technically be considered a preservative.

While salt is a preservative, it is not usually listed as one since it is in it's relatively natural state.


Salt is an ancient preservative. People have been using salt to preserve meats for what seems like forever. A really basic meat preservation technique used in ages past was to simply pack the meat in a whole bunch of salt (think like a crate of salt with a ham in it for simplicity sake) and let it sit there in the salt until they were ready to eat it.

Salting a ham as a way of preserving works on the principal that the salt draws out moisture and pulls in salt. Essentially the cells are partially to fully dried out (depending on the time allowed to sit) and filled with salt crystals that mummify the meat.

Since there is low moisture and high alkalinaty, most bacteria cannot grow.

When you brine something, you are drawing salty water into the cells and inflating them like balloons. this will help the meat to last longer without spoiling, but due to the high moisture content, decaying of the meat tissue and spoiling will eventually occur.

Smoke is also a preservative. It actually does prevent spoilage of meat. How effective it is on it's own without salt is not known to me.

Indians often smoked meat to preserve it without salt, but they also had to dry it to make it last for any amount of time. Dehydrating meats/fruits/vegitables removes the moisture that allows bacteria to grow.

I would not think that smoke alone would have sufficient anti-bacterial properties to keep meat edible for much longer than normal refridgeration would... more on this below.

Smoke is also a curing agent. Smoke does put nitrates into the meat so that when it is cooked it turns pink. So when you cook the food, you will be able to tell if the smoke fully penetrated the meat by seeing if it is pink throughout. So if you preserve it cold in the fridge using only smoke, once cooked you could see how successful you were. If the cure did not fully penetrate and the meat could have spoiled in the time it took to cure it before smoking then simply don't eat it. If the meat did not have long enough to spoil while curing (say 24 hours in the fridge) before cooking it, then it should be safe to eat but it will not be pink throughout.

I think you'd have a very difficult time making this happen...
from what I've seen, nitrogen oxide is only produced in significant quantitys when wood is burned at over temps of 600* F.
I just don't see it possible to keep a smoke box at -/+ 40* and still burn enough wood with a fire at a temp of 600*. Keep in mind, I'm saying that the cumbustion needs to be at 600*, not the smoke box or even the fire box, just the actual combustion. A smoldering chunk of wood will be no where near the temps needed to create enough NO2 to cure the meat fully.

Taking this information above, we know that all preserved meats that we know of today have salt. Salt is a major flavor, one fo the 5 basic flavors the tongue picks up. So part of the flavor of these preserved meats is going to come from this salt. If you remove this salt from the meats and are able to still successfully preserve and/or cure them, I am not sure if they would taste the same as their salty counterparts. However, with the smoke and the cure, they might not taste like their non-smoked, non-cured counterparts either. Think about chicken meat and Tenderquick. Many of us have tried that, and report the chicken tastes "Hammy". How much of that hammy flavor is the salt, and how much is the cure? It's hard to say. When I brine chicken with salt, it is loaded with salt and does not taste as hammy as it does with Tenderquick, so I "THINK" that the hammy flavor comes more from the cure than the salt.
Yup!

Because of that, I like to think that a pork belly fully cured in only smoke and no salt, while preserved in refrigerator temps of 40 degrees, would taste like bacon.

Dunno, interesting idea, but as said before, I think it will be difficult to produce enough NO2 with a cold smoke like that to "cure" it all the way through


Ok I got a question for you math wizard's.


Ok I've picked up my last pork but from a super market that had 4% salt brine sulution and the sodium was pretty good for the 3.3 pond butt. And the sodium content was something like 55mg of sod for 4 oz.


So what would be the salt ratio in that brine? And can I use it that same percentage in the pork belly brine?

Umm, I dunno. BUT! Consider this... maybe we're too fixated on zero salt when we could be overlooking a low salt option...

I'm looking at a bag of TQ, it says there is 1340mg sodium per 3/4 tsp.

The regular cure instructions call for 1TBS of cure per 1 lb of meat. That's 5360 mg per TBS.

I have routinely used 1/2 TBS of cure per lb and had results that I would consider safe. I just cut the chunks of meat into smaller pieces so that they cure in the same week that would normally be used.

So, if we use 1/2 TBS per 1 lb of meat, that gives us 2680 mg sodium per lb.

2680 divided by 16 oz = 167.5mg of sodium per ounce of meat, roughly what a slice will weigh.

Now, there are a few flaws with this reasoning... but they are in your favor as I see it.

We would have to assume that every molicule of sodium in the TQ would make it's way into the meat in order for the reasoning above to work. This is just not possible to do. Osmosis alone will govern that there will be a point (if left long enough) that the meat cells will only take salt up to the point where the outside salt and inside salt content are equal. Once they have equalized, the meat can no longer become any more or less salty (unless you add more salt to the exterior).

Here's where I need a little help... how much will the meat absorb?? My instinct is to say 1/2... but I have no way of validating that thought.

And then we would have to assume that soaking in water for a few hours or so removed almost no salt (but we know that it can remove a fairly significant amount through osmosis).

So if the thought that only 1/2 the sodium would be able to absorb into the meat is correct, does that mean that we would end up with bacon that is close to 84mg of sodium per oz? Seems pretty low to me. John Morrell is listed at 175mg per oz...

I think you could safely use 1/2 the TQ on smaller chunks of meat and get a safely cured, low sodium bacon. I would recommend freezing the meat in portion sizes after slicing to reduce the chances of faster spoiling... after all, we intentionally reduced the amount of curing agents in the meat. It stands to reason that it will not keep as long if not frozen.

Chris? Larry? You see any problems with this?

[bigabyte]

Thanks for sharing the thoughts.

First, I should clarify at no point have I claimed to be the guru of BBQ or anything. The whole Mad BBQ Scientist thing is in reference to my experimenting to learn for myself once and for all the things I could not find the answers for. Answers for questions much like the ones posted in this thread. I know some answers, but not all, and have some proposed ideas for testing things to see how they do works where I do not know the answer. I tried to share and be clear on what I knew and what I suspected.

As for the sodium nitrates and nitrites being preservatives, I did not know that, and thank you for sharing. I actually wondered how the smoke was considered a preservative and suspected it was because of the resulting nitrates, but finding info on how smoke alone (no salt) works as a preservative is not something that is really out there. So I knew it was safe to state that it was only good as a coloring agent, but left out the uncertainty of whether or not it is a preservative.

Since the nitrates from wood smoke are not sodium nitrates or sodium nitrates, but are instead nitric acid which affects the myoglobin resulting in the red color, that is probably the difference and may be why you say that the nitrates from wood smoke are not a preservative. What source did you find stating that the nitrates in wood smoke are not a preservative? I would like to know that because up until now I have not heard that and have always been keen to know these things.

Since I have not been able to smoke meats at 40 degrees, I have not been able to see what impacts this has to the smoke or it's effects on the meat. I was curious to see if a smoke ring would still develop, and if so could it fully penetrate the meat. I have not found any info on this either to give me any clue on what to think about it. Do you have any information about this to share?

Had I been able to do this experiment, the fire would have needed to be a clean burning fire in order to replicate the kinds of BBQ we do which produces a smoke ring. Since I can not find a smoker that does this and maintaind the meat at 40 degrees, I have not been able to see what happens, and information on this simply doesn't seem to be available when I have looked for it.

Again, the reason I did all those experiments in the past was to find out the true answer once and for all by actually doing things as opposed to simply believing them second-hand. So please keep in mind the distinctions I have pointed out in my posts where I have said it COULD be that away, as opposed to things I actually knew for certain.

I appreciate your input, it's nice to get other opinions in here. It's almost seemed like a 2-way conversation except for some of the advice by others simply saying to be wary. They are appreciated, but this info is hard to find and we might just be crazy talking about it. In my case, crazy should be assumed.

[bigabyte]

As for the reduced salt, I have no experiences to guide me in that either, just thoughts. I personally would be wary of using LESS preservative based on the risk of it not being strong enough and the meat getting contaminated. I suspect the ratios suggested for the use of cures is there to keep the meat safe, and going under that is simply opening yourself up to trouble. I am sure it can be done safely, but perhaps not with certainty.

If Sodium Nitrate and Sodium Nitrite truly are preservatives, and if they are allowed in his diet (they have Sodium), then I would imagine he could use just that and no salt, and if we can find info on how much to safely use then he is free and clear to do it. I'm just not sure they are safe because of the Sodium.

[Derek]

Thank you very much you guys for all the help.

Think if I can and you guys will think it safe, then I will go ahead and use that tq curing agent and have 160+ sodium slice of bacon.

Thank you again, I don't know how to thank you guys other then thanks.

[KnucklHed BBQ]

Lol Chris... We know that you're not really a scientist... Even if you're absolutely mad! :wink:

When I have used the lower TQ amounts the flavor and color turn out just as well as the full dose. Just less salty. That goes for belly and buckboard bacon. IME

Its my opinion that TQ is giving instructions based on commercially producing cured meats and they also have no way of knowing what the condition of a persons meat is when starting or the environment it will be cured in, so to be on the safe side they make a larger qty recommendation

When I get home I'll look for the sources on the info discussed previously, its kinda hard to find it all and hammer it all out on the blackberry! :mrgreen:

-Ry