View Full Version : Weep method with UDS
Peteg
03-11-2010, 12:27 PM
Just curious if anyone out there is using Barbefunk's weep method with a UDS. If so, how has that compared to simply foiling? Lately I've been cooking at about 240 1 hour out of foil and then two hours in foil. I always pull them after about 2 hours in foil because the tenderness is pretty much there and I'm afraid to overcook them. Lately they've been coming up pretty dry and I'm thinking I'm ready for a new method. Barbefunkoramaque has convinced me that I'm undercooking and not allowing the collagen to break down, thus leaving me with dry ribs. Any input? Pete
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Three hours? This is spares, right? I don;t even see how the tenderness could be there at 3 hours total. This has me puzzled. How does the pierce test do? I think that if you can twist the small end bone inside the ribs at the end... then the rest of the ribs are going to be spot on.
HeSmellsLikeSmoke
03-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Are you sure your thermometer is correct? If so, where are you taking the temperature? Sounds like to me you are cooking much hotter than you think.
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 12:59 PM
No I think the reverse is true and his take on "tenderness" is astray. Here's why. The look of a set of ribs (which we cannot see) cooked at a temp that completes it at 3 hours (2 in foil) is remarkably different than one cooked at even 240 in three hours.
I think you may be right too on the therm beibg off but I bet, and I could be wrong, the grate temp is lower.
My main problem is the three hours total cook time. There is no way its getting done at 240 for three hours. I can say that I CAN cook a set of ribs in three hours if they are small spares (like 3's but under 4s) and they come out pretty damn good with no foil of course.
He says he uses the bend method and we all know that ribs have certain points where they loosen and tighten up.
HeSmellsLikeSmoke
03-11-2010, 01:08 PM
No I think the reverse is true and his take on "tenderness" is astray. Here's why. The look of a set of ribs (which we cannot see) cooked at a temp that completes it at 3 hours (2 in foil) is remarkably different than one cooked at even 240 in three hours.
I think you may be right too on the therm beibg off but I bet, and I could be wrong, the grate temp is lower.
My main problem is the three hours total cook time. There is no way its getting done at 240 for three hours. I can say that I CAN cook a set of ribs in three hours if they are small spares (like 3's but under 4s) and they come out pretty damn good with no foil of course.
He says he uses the bend method and we all know that ribs have certain points where they loosen and tighten up.
I see your well taken point.
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 01:13 PM
hey, you could be right. Its a UDS, there;'s no telling where the temp probe is. LOL
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 01:15 PM
looking at his equipment, a weber and two uds you would think this meant he might be cool with the texture quality.
However if he is a CBJ that takes that certainty away. LOL
Pete, you know i am kidding! LOL
Dave Russell
03-11-2010, 01:18 PM
Tender in three hours at 240?
It's possible... if cooking very small spares direct, like in a uds. However, I wouldn't think they'd be both tender AND dry in three hours, two of which in foil.
Dave
uds, wsm, wots, wsj, char-griller
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 01:20 PM
i agree dave, like i said maybe 3.5 spares. The foil throws me too. Now that I think of it Smelly could be right. If the spares are laid out on that direct fire, and the temp probe is say, place down the stack, the temp would be way off. Now I had a simular problem when i started to use the weep method kinda (It was a little less moist but not that bad) and i left the sinew on and they were much more moist. The silverskin comes off easy later anyway of thats pointed down. BUT he is using foil!!!! This puzzles me.
swamprb
03-11-2010, 01:27 PM
240* where?
At the grate or on a pit therm mounted on the side of the drum?
Grate temps will be 25-50*+ on the grate. Just sick a couple of Polder probes at various spots on the cook grate and watch the temps fluctuate.
That is if he's cooking direct, which I'm assuming he is since its a UDS and using a heat sink would be blasphemous, and I'd recommend foiling the ribs anyway....
I'd turn them every half hour or use a rib rack if you don't want to foil.
Peteg
03-11-2010, 01:29 PM
Thanks guys, I use the guru probe positioned about 2 inches below the grate in my UDS and always set for 240. Just last weekend I put a normal grill therm in the same spot and it read 240 just like the guru did. I've been cooking this way for about a month now and have had pretty similiar results. the best cook that I've done in the last couple of months was at 240 and completed in 4 hours and spent 2:30 in foil, they were real juicy and moist but pretty much fall off the bone. That's when I started backing my times off. I'll post a picture tonight of a recent cook that I did where they actually turned out great in about 3:15, problem is 8 times out of ten they're turning up dry. My main question is in regards to the dryness of the rib meat. When I get to that point after about 3:15 the tenderness is pretty close to where it needs to be, I can easily probe with a tooth pick, If I pick it up the meat will start to split, and when sliced, I can pretty easily pull the rib meat off the bone, but the darn rib meat is not moist or juicy. Would you guys agree that if I just cook it a little longer that dry meat will all of the sudden convert a bunch of collagen and turn moist? Thanks for all the help. I'm going to try a couple of different methods in the oven tonight and take some picks. I know.. the oven.. It's just a time thing. Smoker this weekend.
Peteg
03-11-2010, 01:36 PM
That's funny :-P. BTW, should mention that I put a drip pan over the fire in the UDS, so they don't necesarrily cook over radiant heat. I also trim them into 8-10 bone sections depending on the rack.
looking at his equipment, a weber and two uds you would think this meant he might be cool with the texture quality.
However if he is a CBJ that takes that certainty away. LOL
Pete, you know i am kidding! LOL
HeSmellsLikeSmoke
03-11-2010, 01:42 PM
It just hit me, you originally asked about the weep method. I don't see how the weep method works with foiling? Or cooking at 240 for that matter? Funk?
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Reading this now, and not having this info in the PM you sent me, I don't think then my thought is the problem. If its that close then you definately are getting it cooked. I would like to see a no foil cook though. I was going to say the temp could be higher but the juices could be cooling the probe.
I also wonder .... what if you yanked the guru and let the uds settle in on 240 by itself... here is why.... in a normally aspirated fire there is pretty much a uniform flow of air. With a guru, if the fuel supply of arrangement is not particually correct the guru is going to blow on that fire even if there are 4 coals left in an effort to get the temp up... this means..... that moist air will be pushed out as cool air comes in,,,,hold it, nevermind, its wrapped in foil.... i digress. This does not add up. I now believe you have your ribs cooked but it does not add up why they dry in foil for 2/3 of the damn cook.
Thanks guys, I use the guru probe positioned about 2 inches below the grate in my UDS and always set for 240. Just last weekend I put a normal grill therm in the same spot and it read 240 just like the guru did. I've been cooking this way for about a month now and have had pretty similiar results. the best cook that I've done in the last couple of months was at 240 and completed in 4 hours and spent 2:30 in foil, they were real juicy and moist but pretty much fall off the bone. That's when I started backing my times off. I'll post a picture tonight of a recent cook that I did where they actually turned out great in about 3:15, problem is 8 times out of ten they're turning up dry. My main question is in regards to the dryness of the rib meat. When I get to that point after about 3:15 the tenderness is pretty close to where it needs to be, I can easily probe with a tooth pick, If I pick it up the meat will start to split, and when sliced, I can pretty easily pull the rib meat off the bone, but the darn rib meat is not moist or juicy. Would you guys agree that if I just cook it a little longer that dry meat will all of the sudden convert a bunch of collagen and turn moist? Thanks for all the help. I'm going to try a couple of different methods in the oven tonight and take some picks. I know.. the oven.. It's just a time thing. Smoker this weekend.
swamprb
03-11-2010, 01:45 PM
What size Guru fan are you using?
If you run the drum indirect, with a Guru, you'll likely get stable temps. Here is a shot I took at a class where TimL is using a DigiQ on his drum.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Apple%20Creek%20Timber/Klose09/IMG_0368.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Apple%20Creek%20Timber/Klose09/IMG_0369.jpg
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 01:47 PM
"Would you guys agree that if I just cook it a little longer that dry meat will all of the sudden convert a bunch of collagen and turn moist?"
I disagree with my own assessment here now that I have more info.... however, since its so quick, at 3 hours the entire process of conversion is shorter so this could be the case. I think I am all out of ideas.
I say balls to the wall anbd go ahead and just nix the foil and listen to a UDS owner that has tried the weep method and try it. These are not enhanced ribs right?
Peteg
03-11-2010, 01:54 PM
And that's my dilema. Like you said 2/3 in foil and they are still dry.. I'm kind of at a loss. I'll try your 270 weep method in the oven tonight and post some pictures at different stages.
Reading this now, and not having this info in the PM you sent me, I don't think then my thought is the problem. If its that close then you definately are getting it cooked. I would like to see a no foil cook though. I was going to say the temp could be higher but the juices could be cooling the probe.
I also wonder .... what if you yanked the guru and let the uds settle in on 240 by itself... here is why.... in a normally aspirated fire there is pretty much a uniform flow of air. With a guru, if the fuel supply of arrangement is not particually correct the guru is going to blow on that fire even if there are 4 coals left in an effort to get the temp up... this means..... that moist air will be pushed out as cool air comes in,,,,hold it, nevermind, its wrapped in foil.... i digress. This does not add up. I now believe you have your ribs cooked but it does not add up why they dry in foil for 2/3 of the damn cook.
Peteg
03-11-2010, 01:57 PM
Hey Jim, I asked about the weep method in the UDS because I am at a loss with every other method. When I read about Funk's weep method last night, it made a lot of sense and seemed like a great test to run. Just curious if there are other people doing it on a UDS.
It just hit me, you originally asked about the weep method. I don't see how the weep method works with foiling? Or cooking at 240 for that matter? Funk?
Peteg
03-11-2010, 02:03 PM
Glad you mentioned that. Over the last month, I've cooked a mix of Farmland spares and Hormel enhanced. I only went to the Hormel enhanced ribs because the Farmlands kept coming up dry. Out of the last 6 Farmlands I've cooked they've all been dry. Out of the last 6 Hormel enhanced ribs, 4 have been dry and 2 were near perfectly moist. Crazy.
"Would you guys agree that if I just cook it a little longer that dry meat will all of the sudden convert a bunch of collagen and turn moist?"
I disagree with my own assessment here now that I have more info.... however, since its so quick, at 3 hours the entire process of conversion is shorter so this could be the case. I think I am all out of ideas.
I say balls to the wall anbd go ahead and just nix the foil and listen to a UDS owner that has tried the weep method and try it. These are not enhanced ribs right?
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 02:47 PM
we can lock this thread down BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peteg
03-11-2010, 03:03 PM
Bingo, As in I should stay away from Farmland and Hormel? I understand Hormel, but everyone seems to like Farmland. Did I miss something.
swamprb
03-11-2010, 03:11 PM
Just curious what type of exhaust you have on your drum?
Are you using a Weber lid, drum lid with a stack or holes in a circular pattern?
Peteg
03-11-2010, 03:22 PM
The exhaust is 6 1" holes in a circular pattern.
HeSmellsLikeSmoke
03-11-2010, 03:56 PM
Bingo, As in I should stay away from Farmland and Hormel? I understand Hormel, but everyone seems to like Farmland. Did I miss something.
I suspect he is saying that enhanced ribs cook differently.
Very few people here use them because they believe they have a hammy taste.
ChiefOsceola
03-11-2010, 04:00 PM
I cooked 3 slabs Saturday in my UDS, cut into St. Louis style. 2 hours open, 1 in foil and 15 minutes unwrapped and they were great and definitely done but not overdone. Was very happy with the tenderness. Averaged 235 - 240 degrees. The previous slabs I'd done for 2 hours, 1.5 foiled and another half hour undone and they were falling all apart. My thermo could be off too though.
barbefunkoramaque
03-11-2010, 09:55 PM
yes... i am saying all bets are off with "enhanced" ribs which IMHO are only good boiled a bit (to remove the nasty salts) and then grilled.
Chief, I think your process is better, only an hour in the steamer (foil) I bet the tip would help him, that and never use enhanced ribs ever ever again.
Meat Burner
03-11-2010, 10:07 PM
Peteg, have you cooked on the drum without the guru? Just curious.
Peteg
03-11-2010, 11:26 PM
Hey Meat Burner, Yes I have cooked on the drum without the Guru. When we do comps we always end up cooking pork without the guru. Well, I went with Swift brand ribs tonight and was pretty happy with the results. Funk, I tried your weep method and the flavor was great. At the same time I had the weeping rack going at 270, I had 2 other racks going, spending time in foil. The foiled racks both came out perfectly moist.. I'm starting to think that it was just the two brands that I've been using lately. Will know for sure after I try a few more racks. Thanks for all your help with this guys. Pete
barbefunkoramaque
03-12-2010, 12:43 AM
Yeah enhanced crap is... crap. Also, remember what i said about gurus... if the fuel supply is not right it can also dry things out... of course with foil thats not likely as in your case.
I wish I had of known you were doing ribs I woulda told you about the glaze thing
ChiefOsceola
03-12-2010, 07:58 AM
Enhanced ribs? Never knew there was such til this thread. Had to Google it. Why in the world would somebody want to "enhance" a rib? Mother nature made the perfect food and here people go screwin it up.
I get all my stuff from a local meat market. Never in a vacuum pack or anything. Just lots of slabs ready for the taking! Enhanced ribs?!?! Blasphemy!
Peteg
03-12-2010, 08:10 AM
Enhanced ribs? Never knew there was such til this thread. Had to Google it. Why in the world would somebody want to "enhance" a rib? Mother nature made the perfect food and here people go screwin it up.
I get all my stuff from a local meat market. Never in a vacuum pack or anything. Just lots of slabs ready for the taking! Enhanced ribs?!?! Blasphemy!
Yeah, around here, most super markets carry enhanced ribs, namely the Hormel always tender brand. They're injected with phosphates that are meant to retain moisture and increase flavor. I wrote them off a couple years ago when I started competing and only went back to them in the last few weeks when I started having problems with the other main brand up here. For what it's worth, I've never felt like they tasted hammy, but they do cook differently and are a little unpredictable.
EatRBBQ
03-12-2010, 10:48 PM
My 2cents?
I think it's a combination of factors, enhanced ribs and the Guru. My reasoning?
Enhanced Ribs: basically brined (salt, salts, oh and some salts)
Now add your favorite rub? Sauce? (more salts)
All that salt is probably pulling moisture out of the meat during the cook (foiled or not). I'm sure enhanced ribs foiled for an hour or more appear plenty juicy and moist, in fact I'm betting they are swimming in liquid. The problem is that the brine/salt helped pull all that moisture out and there is no putting it back in once the meat is setting up/cooked.
I've used enhanced ribs a few times when my other sources weren't available and every time the ribs (no matter my cooking method) turned out much drier than non-enhanced ribs.
IMHO ribs are plenty fatty and don't need a brine to add moisture. As well, the meat left on most racks is thin enough brining could easily be working against you. (when I say "brining" I am refering to the "enhanced" mixture being a brine)
As for the Guru on a UDS? IMHO Over-kill.
Forcing air through an already efficiently designed, sealed smoker system like the UDS is just going to chase your moisture out the exhaust. Increased air-flow is probably helping with consistent temps, sure. But it's also likely pushing heat and moisture out the exhaust much faster than a natural flow.
In my experiences with UDS smokers as long as you keep the exhaust open more than the air-intake the natural flow of hot air rising will create a pull/updraft that naturally provides oxygen for the fire. I find that a 150 to 200 ratio works (exhaust = 150 to 200% of open air-intake) Example: 1" air-intake with 1.5 to 2" exhaust.
Beyond all that, when I smoke ribs on my large reverse flow trailer I use a modified 3/2/1 method (more like 2/1/1) at 230 degree and I almost always have a wet-smoke set up using apple juice or cider. Since using UDS smokers I've found them to be sealed and efficient enough that moisture hasn't been a problem with any meats yet. With the UDS I still used my 2/1/1 method at 230 degrees, IMHO the foiling for 1 hour provides steamy/moist tenderizing.
Anyways, I'm guessing it's the combination of enhanced/brined and forced air-flow (guru) pulling moisture out of the meat and chasing it out the exhaust.
barbefunkoramaque
03-13-2010, 12:11 AM
See, this guy is saying the EXACT thing I did about your guru. If the coals get low and the heat tapers off a bit in standard UDS set up thats good, hot at first, slower and lower as time goes... But then the guru is gonna keep re freshening the air. Drying out your meat in an apparatus KNOWN to be the end all when it comes to moisture.
Thats what I said END ALL!!!!
My 2cents?
I think it's a combination of factors, enhanced ribs and the Guru. My reasoning?
Enhanced Ribs: basically brined (salt, salts, oh and some salts)
Now add your favorite rub? Sauce? (more salts)
All that salt is probably pulling moisture out of the meat during the cook (foiled or not). I'm sure enhanced ribs foiled for an hour or more appear plenty juicy and moist, in fact I'm betting they are swimming in liquid. The problem is that the brine/salt helped pull all that moisture out and there is no putting it back in once the meat is setting up/cooked.
I've used enhanced ribs a few times when my other sources weren't available and every time the ribs (no matter my cooking method) turned out much drier than non-enhanced ribs.
IMHO ribs are plenty fatty and don't need a brine to add moisture. As well, the meat left on most racks is thin enough brining could easily be working against you. (when I say "brining" I am refering to the "enhanced" mixture being a brine)
As for the Guru on a UDS? IMHO Over-kill.
Forcing air through an already efficiently designed, sealed smoker system like the UDS is just going to chase your moisture out the exhaust. Increased air-flow is probably helping with consistent temps, sure. But it's also likely pushing heat and moisture out the exhaust much faster than a natural flow.
In my experiences with UDS smokers as long as you keep the exhaust open more than the air-intake the natural flow of hot air rising will create a pull/updraft that naturally provides oxygen for the fire. I find that a 150 to 200 ratio works (exhaust = 150 to 200% of open air-intake) Example: 1" air-intake with 1.5 to 2" exhaust.
Beyond all that, when I smoke ribs on my large reverse flow trailer I use a modified 3/2/1 method (more like 2/1/1) at 230 degree and I almost always have a wet-smoke set up using apple juice or cider. Since using UDS smokers I've found them to be sealed and efficient enough that moisture hasn't been a problem with any meats yet. With the UDS I still used my 2/1/1 method at 230 degrees, IMHO the foiling for 1 hour provides steamy/moist tenderizing.
Anyways, I'm guessing it's the combination of enhanced/brined and forced air-flow (guru) pulling moisture out of the meat and chasing it out the exhaust.
swamprb
03-13-2010, 01:00 AM
PeteG said he has a heat shield over the fire, so he's cooking indirect in his drum, and using a Guru with it is like using a WSM.
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