Need some brisket help,not happy with how it turns out

[Kevin James]

As the title suggests, I need some help with my brisket which I'm not really happy with how it's turning out. With most things I like to figure it out myself through trial and error because I feel like it's more rewarding when you finally get it right, but with how expensive brisket is, I feel like I may be better off just asking for some help.

So first, I'll try to get as detailed as possible about my process, then I'll explain how they are turning out, and last I'll explain some of the things I've heard or read that just seem to add to my confusion .

My process:
The briskets I'm using are prime grade ranging from 10-14 lb's prior to trimming, rubbed with 50/50 salt and pepper plus a little granulated garlic, injected with beef broth.
I'm using a WSM 22.5, with brisket on the top rack, fat cap down, no water in the pan, but a large foil pan on the lower rack to catch drippings.
Charcoal is Royal Oak briquetes (I will be switching to Royal Oak Lump going forward which I just tried on ribs and found that I like it better, I haven't tried it on brisket yet).
I'm using white oak for smoke flavor, in medium chunks to mini split in size, buried in the charcoal.
I'm cooking at 275, and no wrap because at 275 with briskets in this size range they seem to finish in 8-10 hours or less. If I did wrap, I would use pink butcher paper, not foil.
I don't touch it for the first two hours, then I spritz with beef broth once an hour after the two hour mark.
I probe in the thickest part of the flat usually at the 4 hour mark to ensure it's above 140.
I've been pulling when the thickest part of the flat hits 203-205.
I'm wrapping in two layers of foil, two towels, and into a cooler to rest for anywhere from 2-4 hours depending on what time it is and when I want to eat.

The turn out:
I'm a little frustrated because the flat seems to always be dry, while the point is way too tender... to where it can't even be sliced, it just falls apart. That sucks because slices off the point are my favorite part, and i'm NOT looking for shredded point. Also, the flat does pass the pull test, but not the over the finger bend test. The frustrating part is that I have been trying to judge doneness by when the flat is probe tender, but it never seems to get to the point I hear people describe where it's like a knife going in to warm butter. No matter how long I let it go the flat just doesn't ever seem get to that tenderness. If I had to describe the probe tenderness I get in that flat it's more like what I expect to feel probing the interior of a medium rare tri-tip or a thick steak. I say the interior because with a tri-tip or steak puncturing the surface has some resistance which this does not have, but the inside of the meat feels the same.... if that makes sense.

Adding to my confusion:
At face value, the answer would seem simple... that the whole brisket is over cooked since the flat is dried out but passes the pull test and the point falls apart when trying to slice, and I should be pulling it much earlier. But I have heard and read more than once that generally if your flat is dry it is more than likely under cooked, not over cooked. So then it seems my point is just finishing way before the flat is, and short of cooking them separate which I do NOT want to do, I don't know how the heck to get them both cooked to the proper doneness.

I have also heard various numbers for target internal temps to use as a guide, and a couple different ways to probe.

The most common is probe the thickest part of the flat and pull the brisket when it hits 205. When my flat hits 205, it's dry... and the point falls apart when sliced.
The second most common is probe the thickest part of the flat and go by feel, pulling it when it feels like a knife through warm butter which could be all the way up to 210 or higher. For me, the flat never seems to get to that tenderness, and even taking it to 205, the point gets over done and falls apart when slicing.
Aaron Franklin's book says probe the thickest part of the flat and that the magic number is usually 203. I tried that, it made no difference, the flat was still dry and the point fell apart when slicing.
Myron Mixon says he doesn't probe the flat, he probes the end of the point, and pulls when the point hits 205. That probably would fix my issues on the point, but when I tried it the flat didn't feel tender enough so I didn't pull it out of fear of my flat being too tough.
I read somewhere that if cooking at higher temps, pull the brisket when the flat hits 190. I'm cooking at 275, and wondering if this is my issue. But at 190 the flat doesn't feel probe tender, although the point is probably perfect or just about. It seems that using this method would totally depend on the flat getting more tender during the rest period wrapped in foil and in a cooler... but I don't know.


So I guess the other question, is when it comes to the probe tenderness of the flat, is the "like a knife through warm butter" just an exaggeration that's not really accurate? My point feels that way for sure, but not the flat. I'm wondering if maybe that is the problem and I just don't really have the correct understanding of what I should really be feeling for with the flat.

If left to my own devices, my next attempt I would probably try fat side up so see if that changes anything, and try pulling somewhere between the point hitting 205 and the flat hitting 190. That will probably fix my issues with the point but might result in a really tough flat, or it might actually solve my problem... I don't know.

Anyways, sorry for the ridiculously long post, but I wanted to give as much information as possible.

[SmittyJonz]

Dry is undercooked - if it doesn't crumble when slicing it's Not OverDone.

Probe the Flat from the side in the Thickest part - Ignore the Point. And it's more like probing a Perfectly Done baked potato than Hot knife thru Butter........ Don't Worry about temp - can be 195-210*. Don't spritz every Hour - slows the cooking Process. Maybe try a Choice or even Select and see the difference - More Marbling = the More time it Needs........ I would wrap in Butcher paper at 4-5 hr Mark instead of Spritzing......... I usually don't wrap just cuz I'm Lazy but always think about it.

[Ron_L]

I keep it very simple...

Cook on the grate until the bark is the color that you want.
Wrap and cook until the thickest part of the of the flat is tender.

Using a specific temperature to determine doneness is unreliable since each piece of meat is different.

You mentioned that the flat is dry. Is it dry, but sliceable, or is it dry and falling apart? The first is undercooked, the second is overcooked.

[Kevin James]

I keep it very simple...

Cook on the grate until the bark is the color that you want.
Wrap and cook until the thickest part of the of the flat is tender.

Using a specific temperature to determine doneness is unreliable since each piece of meat is different.

You mentioned that the flat is dry. Is it dry, but sliceable, or is it dry and falling apart? The first is undercooked, the second is overcooked.

Dry is undercooked - if it doesn't crumble when slicing it's Not OverDone.

Probe the Flat from the side in the Thickest part - Ignore the Point. And it's more like probing a Perfectly Done baked potato than Hot knife thru Butter........ Don't Worry about temp - can be 195-210*. Don't spritz every Hour - slows the cooking Process. Maybe try a Choice or even Select and see the difference - More Marbling = the More time it Needs........ I would wrap in Butcher paper at 4-5 hr Mark instead of Spritzing......... I usually don't wrap just cuz I'm Lazy but always think about it.

I have cooked 5 briskets so far, the last of which the flat did start to crumble when I sliced it. The others did not and all were cooked to an IT of 205, actually the last one was 203 and it crumbled when sliced.

I'm also confused about ignoring the point, because I REALLY want slices off the point, but I can't seem to slice without it falling apart if I take the flat to 203 or higher. Is there something I'm missing here, like, will the point tighten up again if I keep it going while the flat comes up in temp? That wouldn't make much sense to me but at this point I don't know what to think.

[HouseDoc]

Do not use WSM lid thermometer as a guide of cook temp. It is unreliable. Get a probe and monitor the grate temp. Stick a probe through a chunk of foil resting on the grate if need be. I wrap when flat is around 165. Probe is only way to tell if it's done, time doesn't work. Feels like knife in butter is real. Also like sticking in peanut butter.

[SmittyJonz]

I have cooked 5 briskets so far, the last of which the flat did start to crumble when I sliced it. The others did not and all were cooked to an IT of 205, actually the last one was 203 and it crumbled when sliced.

I'm also confused about ignoring the point, because I REALLY want slices off the point, but I can't seem to slice without it falling apart if I take the flat to 203 or higher. Is there something I'm missing here, like, will the point tighten up again if I keep it going while the flat comes up in temp? That wouldn't make much sense to me but at this point I don't know what to think.

Several of us say a Perfect brisket would be a Select point with a Prime Flat- but that doesn't exist. Try a Choice cut and try wrapping at 5-6 hr mark..........no spritzing........Points have a Larger Window of Done vs a Small Window on the Flat. Some guys get Brisket Down in 5-10 cooks - others like Me - 50. I smoked 1 every weekend for the 1st Year.........:twitch: - You may wanna try Not Injecting and see.........

You can Pull the Brisket and separate it after 5-6-7 hrs and wrap flat and put back in - Some Guys do this - I Don't..........or pull a lil Early and slice point and then slice the flat and pan it with a lil beef broth and put back in smoker or Oven for 1-1.5 hrs.

Some guys prefer the Point - Some the Flat - I prefer the Flat Sliced and chop the point and pick out all the fat............

[sudsandswine]

Pics of finished brisket and slices?

[Kevin James]

Do not use WSM lid thermometer as a guide of cook temp. It is unreliable. Get a probe and monitor the grate temp. Stick a probe through a chunk of foil resting on the grate if need be. I wrap when flat is around 165. Probe is only way to tell if it's done, time doesn't work. Feels like knife in butter is real. Also like sticking in peanut butter.

I don't rely on the lid thermometer, I use a Fireboard ambient probe at grate level.

[gtsum]

It sounds like your briskets have been over done. Crumbling flat slices and can’t slice the point = overdone to me. Yeah wrapping in butcher paper once you get the color you want and the bark set and I agree on the feeling a done flat...it’s more akin to a baked potato feel...a done point is like hot butter imo. Rest at least a couple hours if possible


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[Kevin James]

Several of us say a Perfect brisket would be a Select point with a Prime Flat- but that doesn't exist. Try a Choice cut and try wrapping at 5-6 hr mark..........no spritzing........Points have a Larger Window of Done vs a Small Window on the Flat. Some guys get Brisket Down in 5-10 cooks - others like Me - 50. I smoked 1 every weekend for the 1st Year.........:twitch: - You may wanna try Not Injecting and see.........

You can Pull the Brisket and separate it after 5-6-7 hrs and wrap flat and put back in - Some Guys do this - I Don't..........or pull a lil Early and slice point and then slice the flat and pan it with a lil beef broth and put back in smoker or Oven for 1-1.5 hrs.

Some guys prefer the Point - Some the Flat - I prefer the Flat Sliced and chop the point and pick out all the fat............

I don't have easy access to choice. I can get prime at Costco, and Walmart has select.

I really don't want to separate the point and flat, but I can try wrapping and doing away with the spritz.

[SmittyJonz]

And Every brisket is Different - 2 Primes bought from the same bin - one can be drier than the other- and then there's the ole' Left handed or Right Handed brisket Conundrum...... :mrgreen:

[Kevin James]

Pics of finished brisket and slices?

I don't have any pics of anything recent, sorry. I'll post pics of the next one.

[SmittyJonz]

I don't have easy access to choice. I can get prime at Costco, and Walmart has select.

I really don't want to separate the point and flat, but I can try wrapping and doing away with the spritz.

There's 37 ways to do it - just gotta Find what works for You .............More Cooks = More Better........

[SmittyJonz]

My Briskets are Slightly overcooked by some people standards - but that's How I like 'em - and I like BBQ Sauce (Stubbs Original)- Flat Slices with Sauce on a roll or bun with pickle n onions........

https://bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249991

:biggrin1:

Just keep cooking and try different things - but only small changes each time - and find what you like...........

[SmoothBoarBBQ]

Getting that "probe tender" feeling can be very difficult. Can I suggest you try smoking a few pork butts (as they are cheaper and easier to cook), and start probing it every hour after you hit 165 internal temp. This can give you a feel for how it will be tough, tough, less tough, getting there, almost there...and then bam : like butter!

I also separate the muscles because the point and flat usually won't cook at the same rate. I usually cook at 250° so when the flat is perfectly tender the point usually needs another 2-3 hours. I pop the flat into a warming box (or cooler wrapped in towels) and keep on cooking the point until I hit 205-210 and it probes tender.

Another technique for getting the feel of "probe tender" is to take a stick of room temp butter and put it on the table right next to your brisket. Take your thermometer probe and probe the butter a few times...get a feel for that. That's exactly what you're looking for in the flat. It should be like a hot knife through butter, and it should have just a slight tiny bit of resistance. I subscribe to the ideology of "over's beat unders" so I'd rather slightly overcook the meat than slightly undercook it. Undercooked brisket is tough, chewy, and dry. Overcooked brisket is juicy, tender, crumbly, and delicious.

You're going to get a bunch of different techniques requested to you here and I think most of them will work. The single most important thing is getting that probe tender feeling down...once that happens you can cook anything because you'll be able to assess when it's tender.

Good luck.

[pjtexas1]

Only issue I see it's pulling at temp. I've never had any brisket where the flat is under cooked and the point is over cooked. First thing I would do is stop spritzing and start wrapping. Don't panic at the end of the cook. That's the biggest mistake we make when cooking our first few briskets. You'll get it. Just don't make 10 changes at once.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Nuco59]

Pics? I'd like a plate - just to do a thorough investigation - of course. That, and I'm hungry.

When Smitty says to ignore the point- he just means to pay attention to the flat- the point will (usually) take care of itself.

Do you let it sit off the heat any before you wrap in foil and give it a nap in the cooler?

Pulling at a particular temp is something I've never done. I may start probing at 203- but it's never done at a particular temperature. (Can't tell you exactly what mine finish at- the therm is off when probing)

[Kevin James]

Do you let it sit off the heat any before you wrap in foil and give it a nap in the cooler?

I have not been, should I?

[SMOKE FREAK]

After a couple brisket fails I switched to chuck roasts. Learning the ropes with a 20 dollar roast makes sense to me. After at least a year of chucks I tried brisket again...No problem...You'll get there. Just don't panic. It's just BBQ...

[Nuco59]

When you pull anything off, it will continue to cook some. Maybe the carry over it taking it to overdone?? Dunno. You don't wrap, so after it probes right, I'd plop it onto a couple sheets of foil, let it cool a bit, then wrap and rest. All of mine are wrapped after I hit the color I like. After it probes right, I have to vent it for 10-15 minutes sitting on the stove top, then wrap it back up, and drop it in the cooler to rest.

I don't know if this is the answer to your dilemma or not. But a vent before resting seems to be something that most report doing.

Brisket can be frustrating. Good luck to you.

[Jason TQ]

One comment and one question.........

1. "Probe like butter" is is just an awful analogy. Brisket is not butter......being that it is made of meat, has grain, different levels of fat, thicknesses, some tell you how you will never amount to anything in life......etc :-D

While my youtube channel is just absolute garbage I found not one ever made a video where they actually SHOWED what they are feeling and actual probing. So I have many of those videos......ingest them with caution. They may help worse than some random person regurgitating "hey bro its done when it probes like butter" because they read it a handful of times and they think it sounds cool with absolutely no additional context :icon_blush:.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqhEFVlaMOrDuIJqYQr2mgA/search?view_as=subscriber&query=probing

B. Have you ever had brisket you really like and just blows your socks off?

I ask because (and I've said this a lot) I love cooking brisket, but it wasn't until I had some really great stuff from pitmasters that know how to make unbelievable brisket that I realized "hey brisket is not euphoric for me and regardless of select or A9 waygu....it just tastes like 'ok' beef".

You might love brisket, but if you are like me it just took me a while to understand what was amazing to others was just "ok"

[blazinfire]

Do not use WSM lid thermometer as a guide of cook temp. It is unreliable. Get a probe and monitor the grate temp. Stick a probe through a chunk of foil resting on the grate if need be. I wrap when flat is around 165. Probe is only way to tell if it's done, time doesn't work. Feels like knife in butter is real. Also like sticking in peanut butter.


Now.. I'll get heat for this.. but advising people to not rely on the WSM lid thermometer is bologna. At least for me.. I have had my WSM since the first year i started BBQing.. that thing has seen some weather.. Still to this day,, I can put oven therms on my top grate it is spot on with my WSM lid thermometer... I would at least advise people to run therms at the grate before THEY decide if the dome temp is wrong or not..

[SmittyJonz]

Plus, Since you're a point Man - Choice and Selects should have less Fatty points, more meat....

[blackdogbbq21]

I’d try using a water in the pan and possibly try cooking closer to 250 grate temp. I’d also consider wrapping in peach paper.

[sickhick]

You definitely need to let it cool a bit before you rest it. If you immediately put it in foil/towels and into the cooler then it's still gonna keep cooking for quite a bit.

[pharp]

Sounds like you are over cooking it and then overcooking it more steaming it in foil for a few hours. Also try not looking at the internal temp at all...it just messes with your head. Sounds like you have done several about the same way pulling at the same temp. Since the only reference point we have is your final temp, I would say try pulling it at 198 or so. Ideally you won't use the temp, but since we all different "probe feel" definitions and temp is your reference point it is a good place to start. Also as already mentioned let it cool down enough so that it stops cooking when you put it in your cooler.

[jimstocks53]

Get the feeling that there is an art to this rather than science? There IS no single right way to do this and from your post I can tell you have done your homework. But you WILL get this if you keep trying. I would only reiterate that done is a matter of look and feel not temp - especially NOT a temp off the cooker lid.

[HouseDoc]

Now.. I'll get heat for this.. but advising people to not rely on the WSM lid thermometer is bologna. At least for me.. I have had my WSM since the first year i started BBQing.. that thing has seen some weather.. Still to this day,, I can put oven therms on my top grate it is spot on with my WSM lid thermometer... I would at least advise people to run therms at the grate before THEY decide if the dome temp is wrong or not..

My WSM18 and a few others are older model with round knob on side door. Temp at grate runs 25 degrees hotter than indicated. Just call me and my friends lucky....glad yours is accurate.

[JS-TX]

Honestly I think a lot of what you are experiencing is because your brisket doesn't have enough marbling.. even if its' graded prime. Some primes have great marbling.. others don't. If the middle of the brisket where the flat meets the point is also dry, you could be taking it too far. I think letting the brisket vent for about 15 minutes and allowing it a long 3+ hour rest helps too.

[JWACKS]

You might love brisket, but if you are like me it just took me a while to understand what was amazing to others was just "ok"

And I thought I was the only one. I've cooked some fine briskets, but I'll take good ribs over brisket any day.

[JWACKS]

I'm cooking at 275, and no wrap because at 275 with briskets in this size range they seem to finish in 8-10 hours or less.
At 275 uncovered, 8-10 hrs doesn't scream overcooked.

I've been pulling when the thickest part of the flat hits 203-205.
I read somewhere that if cooking at higher temps, pull the brisket when the flat hits 190.
203-205 is probably too low, but as many have said, internal temp is only a guide. Low slow cooks finish at a lower temp. Hot fast cooks finish at a higher temp. At 300-325 my briskets don't finish until they temp 210+.

So I guess the other question, is when it comes to the probe tenderness of the flat, is the "like a knife through warm butter" just an exaggeration that's not really accurate? My point feels that way for sure, but not the flat.
Like butter may be a bit of an exaggeration, but your flat should feel almost like what you've felt in your point. The flat doesn't have as much fat so it won't get quite there, but pretty doggone close.

[93_confirmed]

"I'm wrapping in two layers of foil, two towels, and into a cooler to rest for anywhere from 2-4 hours depending on what time it is and when I want to eat."

I'll defer to the senior brethren but for me personally, I wrap in butcher paper at the stall and rest on the counter for an hour+. I have found that wrapping in towels in the cooler negatively impacts the final texture and tenderness.

[LloydQ]

I think water in the pan and wrapping may help with the dryness issue. DEFINITELY let it cool down before the rest in the cooler. Doesn't seem like you are very far off the mark, IMO.

[Whisky]

B. Have you ever had brisket you really like and just blows your socks off?

I ask because (and I've said this a lot) I love cooking brisket, but it wasn't until I had some really great stuff from pitmasters that know how to make unbelievable brisket that I realized "hey brisket is not euphoric for me and regardless of select or A9 waygu....it just tastes like 'ok' beef".

You might love brisket, but if you are like me it just took me a while to understand what was amazing to others was just "ok"

Valid point!! It took me about 2-3 briskets to figure that out for my self.
Now I can't remember the last time I cooked a brisket. Beef ribs, however....

[smoke ninja]

originally you mentioned the slices dont pass a bend test but also you dont get clean slices........just a stab in the dark here but what are slicing with?

a dull, or the wrong knife can shred perfectly cooked meat.

other than that you have some good advice to follow.

[Pig_Farmer]

I have not been, should I?

I have found that letting it sit on the counter and cooling below 190 really improved my briskets. If you wrap immediately after removing from the smoker and putting in the cooler, it will continue to cook and will result in an overcooked brisket. I wrap mine around 165-175 (color pending) in foil. I will add around a cup of beef broth when I wrap.

[frayedend]

Could your injection cause any issues? I truly don't know. I've never once injected a brisket and I've had great success with everyone I've done, from Walmart Select, local butcher Choice, and Creekstone Prime.

I see a lot of people inject and I've really wondered how this helps and what people are using. I can't imagine putting some store bought broth in my brisket. I'm wondering if so much salt is drying it out, forcing the liquid water in the broth do ooze out. I honestly have no idea. But I skip the broth and haven't found a reason to add it.

[Smokin D@wg@77]

And I thought I was the only one. I've cooked some fine briskets, but I'll take good ribs over brisket any day.

me too

[Smokin D@wg@77]

originally you mentioned the slices dont pass a bend test but also you dont get clean slices........just a stab in the dark here but what are slicing with?

a dull, or the wrong knife can shred perfectly cooked meat.

other than that you have some good advice to follow.

also against grain or with the grain ....

[Kevin James]

Hey everyone. Sorry I disappeared for a while, work has me ridiculously busy and it's been difficult to get back to the forum. I greatly appreciate all the advise.

My next attempt, I will try a few things different. I will try not injecting, I may bump the pit temp up to 300 to speed the cook a little and take the flat to a higher temp to try to get it to probe more tender, and I'll let it rest for at least 30 minutes on the kitchen counter before giving a 2 or more hour rest in the cooler. If that works, great, if not, then the next attempt after that I will try wrapping in pink butcher paper once the bark sets and I get the color I want. Or who knows, I may just wrap this next one, not sure yet. Depends how I'm feeling during the cook I guess.

One way or another I WILL figure this out... no plans on giving up lol

[West River BBQ]

Lots of good advice here that will shorten the learning curve. I have to keep reminding myself that there are so many variables to cooking anything, but especially a large tough piece of meat. While I may get lucky early in the process, I don't expect to get good until I've cooked a bunch of times. Luckily, I have a tolerant wife who loves BBQ.

[70monte]

One of the best briskets that I cooked, I injected with beef broth and let it rest in a cooler wrapped in towels for several hours.

I also say that you need to let it rest on the counter for at least 15 minutes to cool off before wrapping and putting it in a cooler or it will continue to cook in the foil.

[thedirtman]

I like to have a water pan in my smoker to keep the meat moist. I also wrap the brisket at the 4-5 hour mark. Whenever the bark has fully formed. I will wrap with tin foil. On the bottom I put the injection marinade on the bottom and put the meat on top. Wrap really tight so there is no steaming going on. These two things have really worked well for me. I hope it helps.
Todd "The DIRT Man"

[twoguns]

Don’t put in cooler until the temp starts coming down or not at all, it will continue to cook! This will most definitely help. If you need to put in cooler to hold because it is done early pull slightly before probe tender and put in cooler to finish cooking.

[HAndyman]

I don't have easy access to choice. I can get prime at Costco, and Walmart has select.

I really don't want to separate the point and flat, but I can try wrapping and doing away with the spritz.


I think I used to find Choice Briskets at Smart and Final, when I lived in CA.
see if there is one in your area.