Sober ponderings on our chosen passion

[16Adams]

I’ve mentioned it before. BBQ imho is changing. Maybe not all- but enough. I’ve no clue where it goes, nor where it’s going. Small town to uptown. Menus changing, hours extending. Trailers to brick and mortar. A thread on this site mentions fewer comps. Celebrity cooker endorsements. More pellets less cinderblock and shovels. The thing is I’m not a player. I don’t even have a good seat. A bbq bleacher bum. A patio cook. I admire what they do from a distance. I’m just making it up as I go cleaning up my own messes. Keep watching keep reading and you can’t help but keep learning. To me it’s about the MSU,beer and photos. Another bottled water please

Thank you.

https://gardenandgun.com/articles/endangered-species-north-carolina-barbecue

[Stlsportster]

Damn that’s a sad story. Heard the same story different variables from a buddy who owned a family owned high end custom TV shop, with repair and install services. Pretty soon $140 DVD players were throw away items and everyone knew how to hook up a flat screen. Amazon and Best Buy drove him out of business.

Walmart and Costco have replaced our local butchers.

The worst part is you’ve destroyed my dreams of retiring as a pit master working over a brick pit shoveling coals.

[16Adams]

I follow quite a few of the well known BBQ places on social media. A year ago there were lots of “sold out thank you” posts around 1pm every day. Now you don’t see those posts every day but more “no lines come get lunch” showing up. Again, not all but more creeping in. Maybe just a gust of bbq wind.

[16Adams]

Another good article. Peg Leg Porker FB April 8 posting pertaining to bbq critics. Good read

[WilliamKY]

I know one thing. NC BBQ will survive with me. Low and slow pork butts rubbed with kosher salt and a finishing sauce. I don't do them any other way.

[Monkey Uncle]

Man, I'm heartbroken to hear of Wilber's demise. I don't live in NC anymore, but when I did, any time I was within an hour of Goldsboro, I always found a reason to go have lunch at Wilber's. Great eastern NC whole hog Q, and he and I share the same alma mater to boot.

William, I'm with you. Low and slow pork with a vinegar-heavy finishing sauce and a sweet slaw beats just about anything. I guess it's up to guys like us to keep NC BBQ alive at home.

[16Adams]

I think BBQ , no-I know BBQ is a tough gig. Your world may be different but in mine I know people who would eat pizza-hamburger, Thai, Mexican, seafood etc every day. I don’t know to many people that want bbq every day.

Wife and I did an urban hike yesterday that passed by one of those Dollar stores where everything costs one dollar. A lady came out carrying I’d guess 18-24 pizzas. If you time it right, added some veggies and a daily V8 you could actually eat (not to unhealthy) all month for a tad over $25. Our last trip for two to a Top Q Joint was $50 for lunch-but we did have some leftovers.

I asked the Bride if she would like to try the pizza gig one month. She said, go get the truck and dove into Kohl’s.

Guess that’s a maybe.

[4ever3]

Nothing is forever, this too shall pass...




amen...

[chingador]

Probably more of a statement of today's business climate overall than an indictment on the BBQ world. BBQ has never been more popular. But there is more to keeping your doors open than what goes on the plate.

[greenmountainsmoke]

Perhaps we are on the downside of the crest. Maybe loving Q will go back to being a small number of people who obsessively chase that perfect brisket or rack of ribs in relative obscurity. Where they will turn to great resources, like a rock-solid chat site where you can go for premium advice, and gather in small bands from time to time to celebrate their passion. And maybe, once this popularity dies down, the price of meat will also go down since the demand will lower.

Hmmmm, come to think of it, is that so bad?? :)

[16Adams]

Definitely think bbq is here to stay, but do think that there are shifts occurring. I like grilled and smoked meats. Recently saw a burnt end boudin being offered at a Q Joint a long way away. Did my best to MSU that boudin. Not all change is for the worse, nor the better- just somewhere in between. Saw a takeoff on a mint Julip using jalapeño simple syrup. So now I want a roasted jalapeño pepper simple syrup Kentucky Mule. MSU mind spinning

https://austin.eater.com/2018/10/4/17936794/texas-46-bbq-closed-barbecue-restaurant-hill-country-freedmens

[Mike in Roseville]

You sure you’re not drinking?

Seriously, change is inevitable. Nostalgic regionalism will always grip us in one way or another. People don’t stay put anymore. Ideas shift; sometimes new ideas take root and others are discarded like old clothes.

Bbq is changing (and whole hog Carolina Q will be fine). Regions don’t have a monopoly on what/how to cook. Even now, certain labels like KC/Memphis/St Louis sauces are starting to lose their reference points.

I get a little nostalgic at times about Tri-tip. But alas, the central California roots of my childhood nostalgia thirty years ago can’t keep tri tip firmly rooted in a comfortable place that I remember it being. The regionalism is gone. People are reverse searing, smoking, etc...basically cooking it in a way that doesn’t jive with my upbringing. You know what? That’s perfectly fine.

Bbq brings us together in many ways. It should be an inclusive idea...rather than an “exclusive” one (that which excludes).

[16Adams]

I arrived to the smoked meat way late. It’s been awesome to watch it’s explosion in popularity. I grew up in a fresh fried from the garden, fried or baked meat or hamburgers with occasional split tbone charred well done plus. Our cooker was a cast aluminum beast probably from Sears or Montgomery Ward. Hen and noodles. Hamburger-lots of hamburger. It’s fun to watch the entrepreneurial nature of “BBQPeople”. Gulf Lite or Kerosene from a cider jug.

[sudsandswine]

I kind of wonder if BBQ is experiencing similar saturation that craft beer has - there has been micro brewery after micro brewery pop up around here over the last several years, I believe we've probably already passed the saturation point in craft beer in general and some breweries will find it difficult to stay open in the future.

I don't think that people who enjoy craft beer are drinking any less of it - and the explosion of breweries has probably brought some new drinkers into the fold - the demand remains at the same level or more but it's getting spread around to more breweries.

There's a lot of Q joints in KC, there always has been and probably always will, so my viewpoint may be skewed...I think we may have the highest # of BBQ joints per capita...but it wouldn't surprise me to find that at some point we (in general nationally) reached peak demand and the # of suppliers exceeds it, then there will be market consolidation.

Some of the "historically relevant" joints here that have been around a long time and serve "traditional" KC BBQ IMO aren't even the best places to get BBQ in town...though it's still pretty good. They will probably live on forever if for no other reason than their legacy and touristy things. But I could see how long standing que joints may find it hard to do business in a market plentiful with options, some maybe technically better than they offer.

[Big George's BBQ]

Times do change but a lot of times things return to what is best I find it best to do what I like and watch

[chingador]

Mike said it well. BBQ is becoming more of an American art form than a regional thing. In how many parts of the country can you get "Texas" brisket or "Memphis" ribs? Plenty.

BBQ is an American cultural treasure, as is jazz music and Bourbon. The number of seats on the bandwagon might change but it will always be a popular thing as long as the quality is there. But if you are going to make a buck in this business you better know what you are doing and that can only work by managing inventory, costs, profit, people, location and government influence. Just being able to make good quality Q isn't enough. My friends always tell me I should open up a joint, but I am nowhere close to ready for that game.

[lkissell]

WilliamKY,

Are you willing to share your finishing sauce recipe? I'd love to give it a try!

[Lynn Dollar]

My view .......... the barbecue universe has three worlds, backyard, joints, and comp.

Each world has as many differences as they have in common. I'm a backyard guy, and what happens in the other worlds doesn't matter much to me.

I keep an eye on the comps, because competition breeds innovation, and maybe I can learn something new. But that's as far as my interest goes.

I enjoy visiting joints, because I like to taste barbecue other than what I smoke.

But what happens there, doesn't really impact my backyard.

[Lynn Dollar]

I kind of wonder if BBQ is experiencing similar saturation that craft beer has - there has been micro brewery after micro brewery pop up around here over the last several years, I believe we've probably already passed the saturation point in craft beer in general and some breweries will find it difficult to stay open in the future.

I don't think that people who enjoy craft beer are drinking any less of it - and the explosion of breweries has probably brought some new drinkers into the fold - the demand remains at the same level or more but it's getting spread around to more breweries.

There's a lot of Q joints in KC, there always has been and probably always will, so my viewpoint may be skewed...I think we may have the highest # of BBQ joints per capita...but it wouldn't surprise me to find that at some point we (in general nationally) reached peak demand and the # of suppliers exceeds it, then there will be market consolidation.

Some of the "historically relevant" joints here that have been around a long time and serve "traditional" KC BBQ IMO aren't even the best places to get BBQ in town...though it's still pretty good. They will probably live on forever if for no other reason than their legacy and touristy things. But I could see how long standing que joints may find it hard to do business in a market plentiful with options, some maybe technically better than they offer.


I've had the same thoughts about craft beer. The choices on the shelf for the consumer are mind boggling. IDK how far they can take variations of the basic styles. And there has to be a saturation point.

Its dependent upon how many new beer drinkers they can draw.

And buying habits of the craft brew drinker are changing, I saw the other day that low ABV beers are the fastest growing segment of the market. IIRC, 47% of beers sold last year were below 5%.

The only sure thing that never changes is that change will happen.

[16Adams]

Texas Monthly had a free email newsletter about BBQ. Now is subscription. The critiques of bbq joints made for an enjoyable read. Interesting to me were the openings closings menu changes and relocation. Now I follow most of the big names and @texasmeatly on IG. I enjoy bbq news. If you enjoy the variety of sausage offerings Bangers in Austin would be my choice if I could only visit one.

I took these photos last Thanksgiving In Estillene TX of a closed up US287 bbq restaurant.

I do enjoy BBQ photography

[sudsandswine]

I've had the same thoughts about craft beer. The choices on the shelf for the consumer are mind boggling. IDK how far they can take variations of the basic styles. And there has to be a saturation point.

Its dependent upon how many new beer drinkers they can draw.

And buying habits of the craft brew drinker are changing, I saw the other day that low ABV beers are the fastest growing segment of the market. IIRC, 47% of beers sold last year were below 5%.

The only sure thing that never changes is that change will happen.

I think all the off the wall new brews like "orangey saffron cloudy haze IPA" and wacky colorful labels are evidence of this. Everyone is trying to differentiate right now. How many pale ales do people really need to choose from? How different can you make a pale ale from the next guy?

I'm doing my best to prop up the market on high ABV beers...if it's under 6% I keep on walking, 7 or 8% now you've got my attention :becky: :loco:

[Lynn Dollar]

I think all the off the wall new brews like "orangey saffron cloudy haze IPA" and wacky colorful labels are evidence of this. Everyone is trying to differentiate right now. How many pale ales do people really need to choose from? How different can you make a pale ale from the next guy?

I'm doing my best to prop up the market on high ABV beers...if it's under 6% I keep on walking, 7 or 8% now you've got my attention :becky: :loco:




Exactly.


And I will continue to start my evenings with a Ten Fidy or Yeti ... or maybe a KBS.

[sleebus.jones]

Our last trip for two to a Top Q Joint was $50 for lunch-but we did have some leftovers.

BBQ used to be a way to sell off the cheap cuts at a butcher shop that just didn't sell during the week. So, the cost of the meat was low, and they were just happy to get it out of the door...the fresh meat sales were the primary revenue generator.

Nowadays people are getting single-ranch, Prime meat for BBQ. The cost of the inputs has gone way up, and that's passed on to the consumer. Not saying any of that is wrong, but that's what's happening. My local joint (open circa 1956) has been raising their prices year on year. They used to be cheap, good eats. They are trying to stick to that, but the prices go up relentlessly. It turns a visit there into a special occasion, rather that just a place to get a good bite to eat.

It's also hard for a local joint to compete with the likes of chain BBQ joints like Spring Creek BBQ and Rudy's, both of which turn out good Q, and have the purchasing power to keep prices down. They're essentially applying Walmart/Amazon pressure to the local producers. The only thing the locals can do is strive for higher quality, which costs and the spiral continues. If they don't pursue higher quality, then people won't pay the prices because they're not getting value for money. Then if they get spoiled by the likes of Franklin's and others, then their gustatory bar is set even higher.

TL;DR Restaurantin' is tough bidness

[W.I.T.W.A.G?]

Interesting read that eludes to a changing tide. I haven't had the pleasure of doing a Carolina's bbq tour but from the outside (to me) it's all about whole hog and Rich BBQ History. Three points that IMHO are causing the change.
1. I would guess that with the recent surge of "Central TX" bbq that the Carolina's might be losing some of the tourist folks that used to go through year after year.
2. With bbq being the IT thing right now lots of folks are learning how to do it themselves and probably dont go out for Q as much (I know I don't).
3. Increased competition means that if you're in the selling of bbq business you have to do it really well on ALL levels from running the pit to purchasing to maximize profits. Surviving is no longer enough, you have to have an amazing product to get noticed. The last line of the article said it best in that if he's the visual of the pitmaster the consumer has in their mind he's not running his business. Running a business is a FT gig and so is being running a Pit at a successful bbq joint.
A new burst of energy will come to Carolina's just like it did in Texas. That person is out there, hell, he or she might even be asking for time and temp on pork butt on this forum.

[BuffettFan]

https://www.pjstar.com/news/20190417/nick-in-am-bbq-restaurant-to-open-soon-in-campustown

A friend of mine is getting ready to re-open his restaurant a couple blocks from where I work. Good for him, bad for me!
His last location closed due to his landlord being a bonehead. I heard IRS and ICE issues. Like prison and/or deportation issues.
I've never eaten his restaurant Q, but have had plenty of his "backyard" Q. The kid's got some talent!
I'll be glad to support him, but I'm a lot happier that I'm not the guy with the restaurant!
As Sleeb said, it's a tough bidness!

[hammb]

I think all the off the wall new brews like "orangey saffron cloudy haze IPA" and wacky colorful labels are evidence of this. Everyone is trying to differentiate right now. How many pale ales do people really need to choose from? How different can you make a pale ale from the next guy?

I'm doing my best to prop up the market on high ABV beers...if it's under 6% I keep on walking, 7 or 8% now you've got my attention :becky: :loco:




I've thought that we have hit (or surpassed) the craft beer saturation point for a couple years now. In my area there was exactly 1 micro brewery 10 years ago. My buddy & I took up homebrewing simply because we didn't like pale American Lagers and in our town (a college town) there was no place to get anything more exotic than a Killians on tap. Now that same town has 1 very good microbrewery, another one set to open soon, and 4-5 restaurants with some good tap selections available. Our area of NW Ohio has about 10 breweries/brewpubs, but only about 3 of them that actually consistently produce above average beer; I have to think the saturation of the market will weed some of those out. For now they're surviving on it "being cool" to drink craft beer at a brewery, eventually only those with good beer will likely survive. Still, I haven't brewed a batch of beer in 5+ years simply because now there is so much good craft beer available, and most brewers honest with themselves cannot make better beer than a good brewery. Plus, I honestly don't drink quite as much as I used too.

I'm with you in that by far my favorite beers are the big ones. IIPAs, imperial stouts, barrel aged beers, etc. But even though those are my faves, I probably do drink more All Day IPA than any of them...it's just so darn drinkable. I'm not reaching for a 9% beer while mowing my lawn in 85* sunshine...

As for BBQ, I find it sad (but unsurprising) to see some of these old time classic joints fade. The reality is almost everybody who reads on this forum can make BBQ as good (or better) than most joints. When you really think about it BBQ is not some impossible to master technique...it merely takes the patience to treat the meat the right way and cook it slowly. As a result most good cooks/chefs can also master good BBQ if they're willing to exercise the proper patience. What we're seeing is quality chefs opening good BBQ joints using high end ingredients, and in many cases giving the sides as much love as the 'Q.

NC is the one "classic BBQ region" that I've had the pleasure of visiting. I've been to several of the iconic places, and I've had great Q from all of them. Sides are more hit/miss. And the history of NC BBQ is not very diverse... Given the ability to make VERY good 'Q at home, and the availability of more "generic" BBQ restaurants (producing good 'Q, with high end sides), my wife hasn't overly enjoyed our classic NC forays. She likes it well enough, but I know she doesn't get the flutters in her heart the way I do. Because she doesn't have the love of the history/culture that I do. To me that is the selling point of many of those classic places...the atmosphere is so old school, and I know some of those guys are feeding the same pits dudes have for 50+ years.

Bottom line, for my wife, and I suspect a LARGE percentage of the BBQ loving population, she'd rather eat at Slow's in Detroit than Skylight Inn in AYden NC. Slow's lets her choose between Chicken, Ribs, Brisket, and Pulled Pork. None are at near the quality as Skylight's whole hog, but they're at least passable BBQ. They also let her choose from any craft beer (or in her case Cider) you can think of from Michigan. And they have damned good Mac & Cheese and other sides. Skylight you get cornbread & slaw.

ME? I love the classic. I'll take Skylight over just about any other BBQ joint because the pork is near perfection, the slaw plays with it perfectly, and the simple corn bread with pork fat ties it together. But most of the new casual BBQ fans out there, the ones watching DD&D or Man Fire Food, would probably be happier spending more money for the more choices at Slows...

[Mike in Roseville]

I think all the off the wall new brews like "orangey saffron cloudy haze IPA" and wacky colorful labels are evidence of this. Everyone is trying to differentiate right now. How many pale ales do people really need to choose from? How different can you make a pale ale from the next guy?

I'm doing my best to prop up the market on high ABV beers...if it's under 6% I keep on walking, 7 or 8% now you've got my attention :becky: :loco:


Beer was actually the first comparison that came to my mind. The differentiation is much a symptom of market saturation as it is the need to reinvent the wheel. For all intents and purposes I have checked out of the beer scene (releases, grand openings, clubs, BeerAdvocate, etc.). It was really fun and adventurous about 15-20 years ago. Now it's just "ticking" and snobbery. Many beer folk have gotten worse than wine folk (whiskey's going that way too). It all goes back to the inclusive vs. exclusive dynamic. The best beer is the beer you like to drink the way you like to drink it. Care about the people you drink with...not what they drink.

I went from thinking my father-in-law is such a stiff because all he drinks (ever) is Bud Light. Now, I enjoy knocking a few of those back with him and talking about the weather. Someday down the road I won't have that opportunity any more.

[frognot]

A lot of these iconic BBQ joints are family run and the next generation of family doesn't want to do the amount of time intensive work it takes to run the family business (they've seen what's involved all of their lives). A friend in HS ran a popular restaurant in a small town and when his dad retired he had to sell the business because none of his four kids were interested in the restaurant business or living in that small town. He was very upset that nobody wanted to "continue the family legacy" but all four kids had worked a lot of hours at The Star Grill and knew how hard running it was.

[jasonjax]

The ONLY thing that never changes is that everything changes.

[sleebus.jones]

The best beer is the beer you like to drink the way you like to drink it.

Amen brother. Same thing with 'Q.

[Westx]

A lot of these iconic BBQ joints are family run and the next generation of family doesn't want to do the amount of time intensive work it takes to run the family business (they've seen what's involved all of their lives). A friend in HS ran a popular restaurant in a small town and when his dad retired he had to sell the business because none of his four kids were interested in the restaurant business or living in that small town. He was very upset that nobody wanted to "continue the family legacy" but all four kids had worked a lot of hours at The Star Grill and knew how hard running it was.

Frognot is right on with this. When I was growing up I worked for Underwood's BBQ at the store in Waxahachie. At their peak they had over 30 stores in Texas and New Mexico plus a frozen food distribution center in Lubbock that sold product to grocery stores all over the Southwest and into California. All the stores were owned by at least one of the 8 Underwood brothers but as they got to retirement age none of their kids wanted to keep the stores open. Today there is only one store left and that is on the site of the original location in Brownwood, Texas and it is owned and ran by 2 of M.E. Underwood's grandsons.

[Tannhauser42]

Yep, the key for any family business to keep going is to have family that wants to keep it going. And that problem is everywhere. Will our current favorite BBQ rubs and sauces still be available in 20 years? What happens when the people running Naturiffic and Oak Ridge decide to retire?

[Monkey Uncle]

Yep, the key for any family business to keep going is to have family that wants to keep it going. And that problem is everywhere. Will our current favorite BBQ rubs and sauces still be available in 20 years? What happens when the people running Naturiffic and Oak Ridge decide to retire?


We might have to go back to making our own rubs! (Gasp!)