Pork Prices

[Cook]

Watch those pork prices. The third lawsuit in NC awarded the plaintiffs $75-80 million this morning. Three lawsuits totalling over $150 MILLION against Smithfield. Three farms out of business. The list of upcoming farms/trial dates is LONG. No one knows when this will end, or when the other companies will fall prey as Smithfield has.

Watch those pork prices.

[BigThicket]

I got Pork Butt and Whole Loins at HEB this past weekend for $1 per pound. So things are looking good here. :)

[Cook]

It'll take a little while. There have only been lawsuits against three farms so far. There is a lengthy list...the lawsuits will continue until something is done...there is blood in the water.

[Cook]

And the first info I got was wildly off. I'm reading news now that it is a $473 million reward to the plaintiffs.

Smithfield can not last long like that. North Carolina a has a law that limits damages, and they will eND up paying around $100million.

[jimbotx]

An appeal will likely be next - resulting in no payments for some time - and legislation will likely be adopted by then to shield or limit liability even further.

[Smoke Rising]

True for Smithfield, but.....the pork industry averages a new plant about every 10 years. There are three major plants coming online this year (STF, Prestage, and Clemens). In a year from now there will be an abundance of pork on the market if these come to fruition and nothing closes.

[PatAttack]

Is this the lawsuit about the runoff from the hog farms??

[zippy12]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2018/06/03/hog-farms-neighbors-awarded-50m-after-suing-over-smells-spraying.html

No real price changes here
Butt 1.59lb
Loin 2.29lb
tender loin 3.99lb

[Cook]

Is this the lawsuit about the runoff from the hog farms??

Not at all. These are not about any environmental issues. These are "nuisance" lawsuits...people who have been talked in to suing over the way a hog farm smells and the sound of feed & livestock trucks driving on the roadways. Really, that's it.

[Joshw]

If that is what the lawsuit is about, I doubt it will ever make it through the supreme court. It's going to come down to zoning. If they are zoned for it, they won't pay in the end. Besides, pork prices are already double what they should be. At least in my area. Store prices, don't match up with scale prices at all. There will probably be a temporary jump in prices, just because they have an excuse.

[dadsr4]

The thing that pops out, to me, is the spraying of the solution. Air quality standards are forever changing and, like it or not, just because it was OK 20 years ago doesn't mean it's OK now. What used to be OK to feed pigs raw now has to be cooked, milk has to be pasteurized before it can be sold, food sold to the public has to be prepared in inspected kitchens.
Just about every business I can think of has to follow rules that didn't exist years ago. Weber used to make red kettles in the US, until cadmium toxicity became an issue. Now they do it in China, with such crappy results that they have to discount them to get rid of them.

[Joshw]

The thing that pops out, to me, is the spraying of the solution. Air quality standards are forever changing and, like it or not, just because it was OK 20 years ago doesn't mean it's OK now. What used to be OK to feed pigs raw now has to be cooked, milk has to be pasteurized before it can be sold, food sold to the public has to be prepared in inspected kitchens.
Just about every business I can think of has to follow rules that didn't exist years ago. Weber used to make red kettles in the US, until cadmium toxicity became an issue. Now they do it in China, with such crappy results that they have to discount them to get rid of them.

Not that I disagree that they shouldn't do it, but if the law hasn't changed, to prevent them from doing it, how can they be sued? Also most states, thankfully have changed the law on pasteurized milk, and allow the sale of raw milk, which is much better for you.

[dadsr4]

Not that I disagree that they shouldn't do it, but if the law hasn't changed, to prevent them from doing it, how can they be sued? Also most states, thankfully have changed the law on pasteurized milk, and allow the sale of raw milk, which is much better for you.
There are regulations regarding air born fecal contaminants that are more recent than some of the older agricultural regulations.


Lawyers are paid by the hour to research these things, and courts allow plaintiffs to recover the fees required to find these things out.
I learned about that when a neighbor sued me over something that there was no legal basis for, blocking a ingress-egress easement, lost, and then applied to the judge to require me to cover their legal costs. He laughed at them.
Someone told me the suit cost them over $25,000.00

[Huskres]

If that is what the lawsuit is about, I doubt it will ever make it through the supreme court. It's going to come down to zoning. If they are zoned for it, they won't pay in the end. Besides, pork prices are already double what they should be. At least in my area. Store prices, don't match up with scale prices at all. There will probably be a temporary jump in prices, just because they have an excuse.

Where do you shop? Sometimes what the stores pay from the warehouse isn’t even close to market price. I’ve seen the price sheets from AWG and AF. They have the grocery stores to damn controlled in this state. Only competition is Walmart and aldi in some cases.

[Joshw]

Everything is too controlled in this state. Still waiting for the new liquor laws to go in effect, so maybe I can buy booze at the same price as the rest of the country.

I live in a rural area, so there isn't many options, unless I want to drive 40 to 80 miles away, depending on what direction I go. So Most of the time it is wal-mart. My point was, compared to what the farmer is getting paid for his animals, and what we are paying by the time it gets put on the shelf, someone is getting rich, and it isn't the farmer. The processors and stores, already have the prices so inflated, that there isn't anywhere for pork prices to go but down. I just don't think the market would bear it.

[EyeBurnEverything]

Smithfield has been over priced for years. I only bought them when they were on sale on holidays.

I wouldn't give 2 F's if they went OOB tomorrow.

[Monkey Uncle]

I used to live and work in eastern NC. Although thankfully I never lived close to a hog farm, I have enough experience working near them to know that something different has to be done (and should have been done a long, long time ago) to handle the waste. We are not just talking about a minor annoyance. The smell defies verbal description; you have to experience it to believe it. I used to have to drive very close by one farm on my way to a work site, and I had to hold my breath as I drove by because the funk hanging in the air would literally take my breath away. Think municipal sewage plant times 1,000. So I have nothing but sympathy for people who have been forced to live next door to these farms for decades. I cannot imagine living with that day in and day out.

All that said, I have to wonder about the point of awarding 50 million or 100 million in punitive damages. Seems like they're just trying to bankrupt the company out of spite. Instead, why not just require the farm to install a state-of-the-art sewage treatment facility? Surely that would be less expensive, and it would actually solve the problem.

[BigThicket]

Other things to consider: https://www.drovers.com/article/hog-market-disruption-will-impact-beef

[Cook]

I used to live and work in eastern NC. Although thankfully I never lived close to a hog farm, I have enough experience working near them to know that something different has to be done (and should have been done a long, long time ago) to handle the waste. We are not just talking about a minor annoyance. The smell defies verbal description; you have to experience it to believe it. I used to have to drive very close by one farm on my way to a work site, and I had to hold my breath as I drove by because the funk hanging in the air would literally take my breath away. Think municipal sewage plant times 1,000. So I have nothing but sympathy for people who have been forced to live next door to these farms for decades. I cannot imagine living with that day in and day out.

All that said, I have to wonder about the point of awarding 50 million or 100 million in punitive damages. Seems like they're just trying to bankrupt the company out of spite. Instead, why not just require the farm to install a state-of-the-art sewage treatment facility? Surely that would be less expensive, and it would actually solve the problem.

Mainly because the courts can not force them to do anything. Only the Legislature or other actual governing bodies can do that. Farmers are only following the current laws. Those laws can be changed. But it is unbelievable that these punishments are being handed down when no laws have been broken.

[Monkey Uncle]

Mainly because the courts can not force them to do anything. Only the Legislature or other actual governing bodies can do that. Farmers are only following the current laws. Those laws can be changed. But it is unbelievable that these punishments are being handed down when no laws have been broken.

They may not have broken a criminal statute, but they have violated a civil statute. Otherwise, they could not have been found liable for damages. If both sides had been willing to negotiate a settlement, they could have agreed to a solution that would require Smithfield to take action and solve the problem. That sort of thing happens all the time in environmental cases.
I concede that in such cases, usually there is some criminal statute that has also been broken, and the potential for big fines under those statutes is part of the incentive for negotiating. But one would think that the potential for an astronomical jury award would also be an incentive for negotiating.

My guess is that Smithfield didn't think they were going to lose, and also didn't want to set the precedent of actually doing something to treat their waste, so they gambled and went to trial. Or maybe the homeowners wanted money more than they wanted an actual solution to the problem.

[Cook]

They may not have broken a criminal statute, but they have violated a civil statute. Otherwise, they could not have been found liable for damages. If both sides had been willing to negotiate a settlement, they could have agreed to a solution that would require Smithfield to take action and solve the problem. That sort of thing happens all the time in environmental cases.
I concede that in such cases, usually there is some criminal statute that has also been broken, and the potential for big fines under those statutes is part of the incentive for negotiating. But one would think that the potential for an astronomical jury award would also be an incentive for negotiating.

My guess is that Smithfield didn't think they were going to lose, and also didn't want to set the precedent of actually doing something to treat their waste, so they gambled and went to trial. Or maybe the homeowners wanted money more than they wanted an actual solution to the problem.

Again, it isn't about the waste per se. It is about the nuisance of the smell. And not only the smell, but the sound of a truck delivering feed and or the rare occasion that they pick up and/or deliver livestock. Seems the neighbors don't like the sound of trucks on the roadways. My homeplace was on a rural road where log trucks drove by at 55mph daily. I wonder if we could sue them because of the noise they made. And what about the airports. That's a big ass nuisance right there. Traintracks? Those trains are loud.

[Monkey Uncle]

Again, it isn't about the waste per se. It is about the nuisance of the smell. And not only the smell, but the sound of a truck delivering feed and or the rare occasion that they pick up and/or deliver livestock. Seems the neighbors don't like the sound of trucks on the roadways. My homeplace was on a rural road where log trucks drove by at 55mph daily. I wonder if we could sue them because of the noise they made. And what about the airports. That's a big ass nuisance right there. Traintracks? Those trains are loud.

Treating the waste would go a long way toward reducing the smell, thereby reducing or eliminating the nuisance. Right now the waste just sits there festering in an open-air lagoon until it is sprayed, untreated, on the fields. Treating it similar to municipal sewage wouldn't necessarily eliminate the smell, but it would make it a whole lot better.

As for the truck noise, I haven't read up enough on the case to know how big a factor that was in the jury award. That does seem a little far-fetched, but I don't know what the individual situations were. I guess there might be cases where a huge increase in truck traffic on a shared private road might constitute a nuisance, but I'm drifting into speculation here.

[dadsr4]

Treating the waste would go a long way toward reducing the smell, thereby reducing or eliminating the nuisance. Right now the waste just sits there festering in an open-air lagoon until it is sprayed, untreated, on the fields. Treating it similar to municipal sewage wouldn't necessarily eliminate the smell, but it would make it a whole lot better.

As for the truck noise, I haven't read up enough on the case to know how big a factor that was in the jury award. That does seem a little far-fetched, but I don't know what the individual situations were. I guess there might be cases where a huge increase in truck traffic on a shared private road might constitute a nuisance, but I'm drifting into speculation here.
From the article,
"Families who live near a hog farm in Bladen County, N.C., have been complaining for decades about bad smells, flies and excessive chemical spraying.".
I'm guessing the trucks have been driving through there since before some of the homes were built.

[Norm]

I live less than a 1/4 mile from a big site. Most of our sites are built on top of the containment holding, basically a concrete basement with slated iron grids over top. The waste goes through it and is held until pumped out in the spring and fall. This is put in huge tanks that open a furrow, pump the slurry in and close the furrow. If you are spraying it on top like the the nitrogen breaks pretty quickly and doesn't do any good. Don't know of anyone around here that sprays.

It's a nasty way to raise hogs, the smell is terrible and every so often they'll get a hydrogen sulfide kill. It will kill workers too if conditions are right. Don't know the answer but corps will put profits before safe conditions. Will be interesting to see what becomes of this, it's been tried here but they haven't been very successful in winning.

[Huskres]

Smithfield is self insured too for quite a lot of things. Wonder if they. will cover it or not. Believe me Smithfield never thinks they will lost. I have intimate knowledge of that for sure.

[Cook]

I'm guessing the trucks have been driving through there since before some of the homes were built.

Since there has been a moratorium on new hog farms in NC for about twenty years now, that statement is exactly correct.

[hammb]

I live less than a 1/4 mile from a big site. Most of our sites are built on top of the containment holding, basically a concrete basement with slated iron grids over top. The waste goes through it and is held until pumped out in the spring and fall. This is put in huge tanks that open a furrow, pump the slurry in and close the furrow. If you are spraying it on top like the the nitrogen breaks pretty quickly and doesn't do any good. Don't know of anyone around here that sprays.

It's a nasty way to raise hogs, the smell is terrible and every so often they'll get a hydrogen sulfide kill. It will kill workers too if conditions are right. Don't know the answer but corps will put profits before safe conditions. Will be interesting to see what becomes of this, it's been tried here but they haven't been very successful in winning.

The best solution is for consumer's to realize the reason they can buy pork for $.99/lb is offset by ridiculous environmental costs of factory hog farming. Those costs are paid largely by the locals who deal with these factory farms, so most don't care, but the model is not sustainable.

Pork shouldn't be $.99/lb. You see that when you go out to buy pork that is raised properly and end up paying $4/lb or more.

Pork and poultry are way too cheap. The retail prices are subsidized with environmental costs, etc that we just let keep happening. If the EPA could actually get the teeth to regulate these things the way they should be, pork & poultry would be way more expensive. So, of course, it won't happen any time soon because people want their cheap meats. Oddly the farmers would probably benefit more than anybody if they did start regulating these places the way they should be. As it stands now the farmers make a pittance compared to the conglomerates like Tyson, Smithfield, etc.

[Joshw]

The best solution is for consumer's to realize the reason they can buy pork for $.99/lb is offset by ridiculous environmental costs of factory hog farming. Those costs are paid largely by the locals who deal with these factory farms, so most don't care, but the model is not sustainable.

Pork shouldn't be $.99/lb. You see that when you go out to buy pork that is raised properly and end up paying $4/lb or more.

Pork and poultry are way too cheap. The retail prices are subsidized with environmental costs, etc that we just let keep happening. If the EPA could actually get the teeth to regulate these things the way they should be, pork & poultry would be way more expensive. So, of course, it won't happen any time soon because people want their cheap meats. Oddly the farmers would probably benefit more than anybody if they did start regulating these places the way they should be. As it stands now the farmers make a pittance compared to the conglomerates like Tyson, Smithfield, etc.

Whats .99 pork? I have bought pork for that price, once in the last several years. That was spare ribs, that were mostly bones. Just bought a bunch of pork butts on sale for $1.79. I was happy to get them. I don't think I could get pork for .99 a pound, if I bought the hog, and butchered it myself. Baby backs are currently 3.74 a pound here. As a comparison, brisket is 3.49. I think that is too high too, but my point is. I have never eaten a rib, that tasted better than brisket. So if pork should be $4 a pound how much should beef cost? By the way, try telling the guy, making $8 an hour, that his groceries are too cheap.

Now, at the risk of sending this thread off the rails. Government is who gave Tyson, and Smithfield all the power to begin with, by running smaller farms out of buisness. I don't think more EPA is the solution to anything, and good luck finding a farmer to agree with you.

[hammb]

Whats .99 pork? I have bought pork for that price, once in the last several years. That was spare ribs, that were mostly bones. Just bought a bunch of pork butts on sale for $1.79. I was happy to get them. I don't think I could get pork for .99 a pound, if I bought the hog, and butchered it myself. Baby backs are currently 3.74 a pound here. As a comparison, brisket is 3.49. I think that is too high too, but my point is. I have never eaten a rib, that tasted better than brisket. So if pork should be $4 a pound how much should beef cost? By the way, try telling the guy, making $8 an hour, that his groceries are too cheap.

Now, at the risk of sending this thread off the rails. Government is who gave Tyson, and Smithfield all the power to begin with, by running smaller farms out of buisness. I don't think more EPA is the solution to anything, and good luck finding a farmer to agree with you.


Everybody's groceries are way too cheap. We spend far less of our income on food today than we did 50 years ago. We also spend less percentage of our income on food in the US than do many other countries; developed and not developed.

Beef is actually closer in line with what the prices should be; largely because it's NOT been fully integrated into the vertical farming model. Yes, the government bears some responsibility for allowing the vertical farming that has overtaken hog & chicken production, and they should be tasked with taking it down. Of course when Obama was elected (with a lot of farmers backing him) he hired a Sec. of Ag that wanted very much to help the farmers, and could get nothing through congress as a result of the major bucks in lobbying from guys like Tyson & Smithfield.

Food in this country is too cheap. It's subsidized on the back of raping the ground, air, and water to produce the maximum number of calories for the lowest cost. It also uses an insane amount of fossil fuels in the production of commodity crops; and this too is heavily subsidized by taxpayers. The current model is not sustainable for the environment or the farmers, who are being bankrupted/driven out of business left and right.

Yeah, it's tough to tell the guy making $8/hr that his grocery bill is too small, but on the whole Americans are paying far less for their food than we have in the past. The balance of that savings is covered by the exact environmental issues the plaintiffs in this lawsuit were complaining about.

[canoe]

i am glad the plaintiffs won.

[JRDINCC]

It seems I heard Smithfield is owned by communist China. Let's see if they pay up.