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barrett.wendt
06-04-2018, 06:52 PM
I attempted my 1st packer Brisket on my Big Green Egg and it was not as good as I had hoped.

I have a lot of experience with my egg for Pork, Pizza, Bread, Steak etc but never tried a brisket until now. I wouldn't say it was a miserable failure but it's going to hard to convince the wife (who already doesn't like Brisket) to try again with an expensive piece of meat.

Here is the setup;

Brisket trimmed to ~ 1/4 inch fat layer and dry rub applied night before the smoke. For rub we used a very basic application of sea salt, pepper, garlic powder and pepper including injecting some of the mix with water. The rub wasn't caked on but we did apply a healthy amount due to the size of the Brisket which was ~18lbs before trim.

BGE at 250 and Brisket at near room temperature before putting it on the smoker. Put it fat cap down against the grill and pretty much left it along with ~16 hours.

I know they say internal temp does not tell you when the meat is done but I was watching it anyway. At just over 190 degrees the temp probe was sliding in and out of the point and the flat like butter so I figured it was done. The Brisket had shrunk nicely and had what appeared to be a nice bark on it.

However when cutting into it there was still a bunch of fat, the meat didn't really cut as much as fall apart and the flat was more burned an tough than what I would have expected since the probe was sliding like butter.

Also the bottom layer that was against the grill had to be cut completely off as it was hard, like it had been burned or something.

I had the BGE setup in smoke mode and had a drip pan under the Brisket for the smoke.

So any suggestions on what might have been wrong?

Temp to high maybe? Should I have put fat side up not down?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

stan5677
06-04-2018, 06:57 PM
Did you wrap at all and was the diffuser in place?

gtsum
06-04-2018, 06:59 PM
Sounds like your temp was a bit high? Too much radiant heat on the bottom...odd with a drip pan there though? If it crumbled when slicing, it was overcooked likely. I donít normally wrap mine, but maybe consider wrapping it after a few hours next time and see if it helps?


Memphis Elite





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Glass hole
06-04-2018, 06:59 PM
Always probe the flat too. The point has a ton of fat so it will be tender early.

LYU370
06-04-2018, 07:04 PM
Did you have the heat deflector installed? Forget what it's called on the BGE. Crumbly, sounds like it was overcooked.

Frank Mahovlich
06-04-2018, 07:12 PM
My thoughts- Your set-up sounds fine to me. I monitor internal temp when cooking too, but with brisket I use it merely as a guideline to let me know I’m approaching done. Finish temps can vary from cook-to-cook, especially with an 18lb beast. I know when I hit 190 I’m getting close, but for me, when the thickest part of the flat probes like butter, that’s the surest sign I have found that the brisky is done. I have found 202 to pretty much be the sweet spot for my style of cooking and a brisky in the 13-16 pound range on a WSM. But again, I use temp as a guide, and probing the thickest part of the flat like butter for the real deal source of truth. 205 and even 208 have worked for me on past cooks. Let your probe be your guide.

Brisket is the most challenging meat I’ve tried smoking, as the window for perfect doneness can be quite narrow. Pulled too soon or too late can both lead to dryness. Also, brisket needs to be sliced across the grain for maximum tenderness.

My best guess would be that this brisket was a bit under-cooked, based on pulling at 190. But I've never cooked with an egg before, so there is that.

Convince momma to stick with ya on brisket, Barrett. Maybe both she & the meat would be a bit more forgiving with a 12-15 lb packer if you can find one, as it would be a less costly 'learning experience.'

Regards,
FM

CentralOhioBBQ
06-04-2018, 08:01 PM
99% sure you under-cooked it.

We’re the slices tight and not pull apart easily? (I’m assuming you sliced against the grain)

Or, did they fall apart and not hold up?

I have a feeling you were probing the point (which finishes in the 210 range and probes like butter early), or were probing into the fat layer that separates the flat/point. I’ve never had a flat finish ideally pulling the thickest part of the flat under 203, and prefer 208ish. Sticking a probe into the thickest part of the flat at the beginning of the cook and monitoring the temp might help you as you get comfortable with it..

CentralOhioBBQ
06-04-2018, 08:02 PM
Also, you can fix your problem of a large dry piece of meat if you have a sous vide. Bag it and put it in the bath at 185 for a few hours. It’ll be perfect.

Blowin' Smoke
06-04-2018, 08:06 PM
Just curious, but did you let the meat rest at all, or just pull it off and start slicing?


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el luchador
06-04-2018, 08:22 PM
brisket flat is a toughie. and imo it has to be braised.

16 hours in smoke at 250 would make any brisket flat dry, imo

Rockinar
06-04-2018, 08:23 PM
Briskets take practice and all smokers use different techniques. Practice and try different techniques each time and see what works for you and your kamado. I dont know anyone who made a good brisket on the first try. My friend turned his into an asteroid. It was like a lava rock and not anywhere close to edible. I know I ruined a few of them before I was satisfied. Each time you will learn something and the next one will be better.

If you want to get good at brisket, you're going to most likely ruin a few.

18 pounds is huge for a kamado. Try a smaller one.

Try cooking longer

Try cooking shorter

Try different temps

Try different wrapping techniques (foil vs paper)

Try injecting

Try not injecting

Try letting it rest longer

Try better grade brisket.

Try letting it sit out at room temp and come down in temp before you let it rest.

Make sure you are slicing AGAINST the grain on the flat. If you slice with it, it will crumble.


When I had my Kamado Joe I had to fight the radiant heat from the deflector on long cooks by putting a foil water pan on top of it.

sudsandswine
06-04-2018, 08:29 PM
Cooking at 250* and falling apart after probing like butter at 190* and taking 16 hours to get there is suspicious to me. My guess is your probe thermometer was not reading correctly and/or you were cooking higher than 250*. I've never had a brisket fall apart at 190*.

Burnt at Both Endz
06-04-2018, 08:36 PM
I'd start by doing an ice bath test on the probe.

barrett.wendt
06-04-2018, 08:40 PM
I love this site... thank you all for the replies. It seems the consensus is temp too high and likely underdone which is sort of what I expected.

To respond to some of the questions, I did have my smoke setter in place, with a drip pan on top and filled with water/beer combination and I did not wrap it. I typically don't wrap any of my smoked meats, preferring to let them finish on the smoker without using the Texas crutch.

I have a temp control on my BGE which does read slightly higher than my BGE dome thermometer. I need to get this adjusted of course but I have tested my dome thermometer in boiling water and always trust it over my temp control sensor.

I did rest it for most of the day to answer those who asked that question. I took it off about 10AM and didn't slice until 5pm. I kept it warm in a cooler by wrapping it in some old towels and did not re-heat it before cutting. I did slice against the grain I think... there was still enough fat left that it sort of made it hard to slice, like it was falling apart when I tried to cut it.

I will have to re-check my temp probes this weekend in boiling water to make sure I am not running higher temps than expected. From the burned bottom of the Brisket I did expect I was too hot.

Well... I will just have to show up one weekend with another packer and try again permission granted or not :-)

Fortunately my Pork ribs and shoulders and grilled Salmon make up for the occasional under performer.

Thanks again for all the replies.... this site is awesome!

Burnt at Both Endz
06-04-2018, 08:44 PM
Nothing wrong with running it hot, just flip it every so often if your gonna go naked!

Demosthenes9
06-04-2018, 08:49 PM
You said that the meat fell apart, that means it was over cooked. If it was undercooked, it would have been tough to pull a slice apart. It probed at 190, or so.... I'd wager that the tip of your probe was going into pockets of fat which have. Agale reading. Completely ignore the point next time. Fine the thickest part of JUST the flat and probe there both for temp and tenderness. That will avoid hitting fat.

On a full packer, you are going to have fat in the seam between the point and the flat, unless you aggressively trim to begin with.

Lastly, 16 hours at 250 sounds like way too long a cook time.

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barrett.wendt
06-04-2018, 08:53 PM
Good point (no pun intended) LOL

I wasn't expecting no fat, the fat provides lots of flavor just not as much as I found. I expected more of it to melt out I guess.

I would agree with you that falling apart would be overcooking not under so maybe it was just where I was probing. I will have to adjust next time and just probe the fastest part of flat not the point.

I didn't aggressively trim the fat either, I thought I could probably take off a bit more but didn't want to risk it and get into the meat and not leave enough :-)

The Wookiee
06-04-2018, 09:20 PM
Will still make good leftovers... add liquid of choice and braise it on reanimate it; add to whatever. Even when a brisket goes sideways the leftovers are most always salvageable.

As mentioned above - temp probe only guides probing for tenderness (including flat/ I usually check a few places)... I also get a hand or two under the middle of the brisket to see if ends flop down on both sides = the tight meat has given up. And of course let it rest!

LYU370
06-04-2018, 09:30 PM
Next time you buy a brisket. Grind the flat for burgers and cook the point. Brisket burgers are fabulous, as are burnt ends. :wink:

barrett.wendt
06-04-2018, 10:02 PM
That is an excellent idea Andy!!!!

Frank Mahovlich
06-04-2018, 10:14 PM
Upon further review, I concur with those who said ‘overcooked’ based on crumbling. Undercooked would be tough, overcooked would crumble.

There’s lots of great posters in this forum that will respond in short order, even if you post a question mid-cook. Stick with it- you’ll get it!

sniperfx
06-05-2018, 06:17 AM
I made the mistake of getting the probe into the fat pocket once at a competition. I started freaking out because it was taking so long. Always double check with hand held probe. Best brisket I have ever made came from wally world. You just never know. Brisket is a fickle Bitch. Like Mother Nature.. You will get it, just keep practicing my friend!!!

el luchador
06-05-2018, 07:03 AM
ill say it one more time, just in case it was missed.

brisket flat really needs a braise. it doesnt have enough fat to protect it during a long cook, and it is a thin piece of meat that drys out easily.

you learn how to braise and you never have another dry flat. even franklin bbq braises brisket.

thank me later

CentralOhioBBQ
06-05-2018, 07:16 AM
ill say it one more time, just in case it was missed.

brisket flat really needs a braise. it doesnt have enough fat to protect it during a long cook, and it is a thin piece of meat that drys out easily.

you learn how to braise and you never have another dry flat. even franklin bbq braises brisket.

thank me later


Franklin braises brisket? I've walked the pit room at Franklins (pre-fire), I didn't see any evidence of that. Please elaborate.

medic92
06-05-2018, 07:17 AM
I have to agree that it was probably overcooked, rather than undercooked. If you pulled it at 190 and the immediately wrapped in towels and put it in a cooler for seven hours, it probably kept on cooking.


If you're going to give it a long rest (4+ hours), try pulling it at 180-185. I've had pretty good results doing it that way.

sudsandswine
06-05-2018, 07:20 AM
Franklin braises brisket? I've walked the pit room at Franklins (pre-fire), I didn't see any evidence of that. Please elaborate.

Probably secretly cooks directly over coals too :blah:

el luchador
06-05-2018, 07:45 AM
Probably secretly cooks directly over coals too :blah:

I guess when Aaron Franklin said "I dont EVER cook brisket without wrapping em" he was lying? :der:

andre2955
06-05-2018, 07:57 AM
It sounds to like overcooked. "Falling apart", "16 hours at 250". Here is what I do on BGE for perfect brisket.

1) stable 275 egg temp
2) indirect set up with aluminum water pan under grate
3) start with Prime, trim as much fat off as possible, Leave cap, but trim down to 1/4 inch.
4) Fat side up, point towards rear of egg
5) Cook to 195 internal temp (temp taken at center)
6) Test with probe for tenderness
7) Remove from heat, wrap in foil, towel, cooler for min of 1 hour, 2 hours if possible.
8) Rest on counter in foil for 20 mins, slice.

Its perfect every time this way in egg. This method was discovered by mistake during a competition when everything went wrong. It turned out really well by accident, and i incorporated mistakes into recipe. Should also mention, a 15 lb packer (11 usually after fat trimming) cooks in about 8-9 hrs at 275 using this method.

Good luck - there is a wealth of knowledge on this site, its a journey... not a destination.

Peter V
06-05-2018, 08:03 AM
I guess when Aaron Franklin said "I dont EVER cook brisket without wrapping em" he was lying? :der:

Yes, he has a video where he cooked 3 ways (unwrapped, foil and butcher paper) and preferred unwrapped that day.
"EVER" is a long time

CentralOhioBBQ
06-05-2018, 08:04 AM
I guess when Aaron Franklin said "I dont EVER cook brisket without wrapping em" he was lying? :der:


Wrapping in butcher paper isn't braising. It's just wrapping. Terminology disconnect.


And I think the OP wasn't clear on whether the slices were falling apart or tight, he didn't really specify. I still think it was undercooked, even though @ 250 for 16 hours it should've been done. He said he pulled at 190.

mstewart39
06-05-2018, 08:21 AM
I'm no brisket expert. I love practicing because I want to get good. Knowing when it's done is my struggle.
The kamado is a little different with wrapping in my mind. It's SUCH a moist cooking method that it's a bit different than people using stick burners, UDS's, WSM's, pellets, etc. I've done some wrapping and others without, and I haven't noticed a huge difference yet.
I'm struggling with the idea that it was 190 but overcooked and falling apart. I agree that it sounds as if you're getting a false temp reading. But I've cooked an 18 pound brisket in my Big Joe for more than 16 hours before with good results! I was probably a bit below 250 though.

You can make great brisket at 225, you can make great brisket at 275. You can make great brisket on a kamado wrapped, you can make great brisket unwrapped. In my mind it's a lot of making sure that you are keeping a close eye on internal temps to know when to start to probe, taking it off at the right time (that's where I struggle) and letting it rest for a few hours.

Just try again. I've had 2 briskets I remember that were so dry I couldn't eat them without BBQ sauce. And both were excellent with sauce or reheated in broth to make amazing sandwiches. Or in chili or nachos!

Practice. Even the failures can end up making good meals.

smoke ninja
06-05-2018, 10:06 AM
I attempted my 1st packer Brisket on my Big Green Egg and it was not as good as I had hoped.

I have a lot of experience with my egg for Pork, Pizza, Bread, Steak etc but never tried a brisket until now. I wouldn't say it was a miserable failure but it's going to hard to convince the wife (who already doesn't like Brisket) to try again with an expensive piece of meat.

Here is the setup;

Brisket trimmed to ~ 1/4 inch fat layer and dry rub applied night before the smoke. For rub we used a very basic application of sea salt, pepper, garlic powder and pepper including injecting some of the mix with water. The rub wasn't caked on but we did apply a healthy amount due to the size of the Brisket which was ~18lbs before trim.

BGE at 250 and Brisket at near room temperature before putting it on the smoker. Put it fat cap down against the grill and pretty much left it along with ~16 hours.

I know they say internal temp does not tell you when the meat is done but I was watching it anyway. At just over 190 degrees the temp probe was sliding in and out of the point and the flat like butter so I figured it was done. The Brisket had shrunk nicely and had what appeared to be a nice bark on it.

However when cutting into it there was still a bunch of fat, the meat didn't really cut as much as fall apart and the flat was more burned an tough than what I would have expected since the probe was sliding like butter.

Also the bottom layer that was against the grill had to be cut completely off as it was hard, like it had been burned or something.

I had the BGE setup in smoke mode and had a drip pan under the Brisket for the smoke.

So any suggestions on what might have been wrong?

Temp to high maybe? Should I have put fat side up not down?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I recommend you start from scratch. Remove your prior misconceptions and build a method from that works for you.

First you used the the terms falling apart and tough to describe the meat. This leads me to believe it's a knife/slicing issue that on that.

The bottom was nuked. I find this an issue with kamado cookers and brisket. They are not the best option in my opinion. Like anything there are work around. Wrap or finish in an oven or even place in a pan (on a rack or not). At least I would flip the brisket occasionally.

Fat. Trim out to start what you don't want to eat. You'll never render out all of the fat vein or cap so get it close to start or you'll have to do it at the end and you'll lose bark.

You pulled at 190 and rested awhile. I do recommend long holds but care is needed not to overshoot during this. If you were at 275 there would be some carryover but 190 is a low finish temp for 275......time in the saddle is needed to get the feel for a done brisket. It's hard to say how finished it was on your probing, if you probed properly and did it overcook while you rested?

To start I'd trim more fat
Flip the meat as needed
Wrap or pan
Finish at a lower cook temp
Start with the best choice grade or better brisket you can find

And finally read all of this

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119798&postcount=8

el luchador
06-05-2018, 10:20 AM
Wrapping in butcher paper isn't braising. It's just wrapping. Terminology disconnect.


And I think the OP wasn't clear on whether the slices were falling apart or tight, he didn't really specify. I still think it was undercooked, even though @ 250 for 16 hours it should've been done. He said he pulled at 190.

nope. no terminology disconnect. Wrapping is a form of braising.

I wouldnt dwell on semantics though as that is not the point. The point is to let the op know that some of the most highly regarded pitmasters in the world wrap. high scoring cooks on the competition circuit wrap, and the op will have a much better chance of success if he wraps. braising brisket is not a bad thing. its a tough piece of meat. :thumb:

el luchador
06-05-2018, 10:26 AM
I'm no brisket expert. I love practicing because I want to get good. Knowing when it's done is my struggle.
The kamado is a little different with wrapping in my mind. It's SUCH a moist cooking method that it's a bit different than people using stick burners, UDS's, WSM's, pellets, etc. I've done some wrapping and others without, and I haven't noticed a huge difference yet.
I'm struggling with the idea that it was 190 but overcooked and falling apart. I agree that it sounds as if you're getting a false temp reading. But I've cooked an 18 pound brisket in my Big Joe for more than 16 hours before with good results! I was probably a bit below 250 though.

You can make great brisket at 225, you can make great brisket at 275. You can make great brisket on a kamado wrapped, you can make great brisket unwrapped. In my mind it's a lot of making sure that you are keeping a close eye on internal temps to know when to start to probe, taking it off at the right time (that's where I struggle) and letting it rest for a few hours.

Just try again. I've had 2 briskets I remember that were so dry I couldn't eat them without BBQ sauce. And both were excellent with sauce or reheated in broth to make amazing sandwiches. Or in chili or nachos!

Practice. Even the failures can end up making good meals.

do you have data on the humidity of the Egg. that is something Ive been wanting to find out for a while now. My UDS is usually at approx 10% with no added moisture elements except the meat. a weber kettle can be as high as 20+ %. I would really like to know what an egg is.

CentralOhioBBQ
06-05-2018, 10:45 AM
nope. no terminology disconnect. Wrapping is a form of braising.

I wouldnt dwell on semantics though as that is not the point. The point is to let the op know that some of the most highly regarded pitmasters in the world wrap. high scoring cooks on the competition circuit wrap, and the op will have a much better chance of success if he wraps. braising brisket is not a bad thing. its a tough piece of meat. :thumb:


Fair enough. I consider braising in the classical sense. The way they teach you at Chef school.

"Braising (from the French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) word braiser) is a combination-cooking method that uses both lit wet and dry heats: typically, the food is first seared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seared) at a high temperature, then finished in a covered pot at a lower temperature while sitting in some (variable) amount of liquid (which may also add flavor). Braising of meat is often referred to as pot roasting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_roasting), though some authors make a distinction between the two methods, based on whether additional liquid is added.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braising#cite_note-pot-roasting_oregonst-1)"

Butcher paper breathes and doesn't hold juices and/or simmer. Franklin adds no liquid to his wrapped brisket.

el luchador
06-05-2018, 11:39 AM
Fair enough. I consider braising in the classical sense. The way they teach you at Chef school.

"Braising (from the French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) word braiser) is a combination-cooking method that uses both lit wet and dry heats: typically, the food is first seared (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seared) at a high temperature, then finished in a covered pot at a lower temperature while sitting in some (variable) amount of liquid (which may also add flavor). Braising of meat is often referred to as pot roasting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_roasting), though some authors make a distinction between the two methods, based on whether additional liquid is added.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braising#cite_note-pot-roasting_oregonst-1)"

Butcher paper breathes and doesn't hold juices and/or simmer. Franklin adds no liquid to his wrapped brisket.

:thumb:

Fair enough. though when I have used butcher paper it did retain a significant amount of liquid in the paper. maybe its the cheap sam's club paper I bought.

JS-TX
06-05-2018, 11:41 AM
I've smoked many briskets on my bubba keg (kamado). I really think you should check your thermometer's accuracy in boiling water. Thermometers are more truthful at higher temps than cold temps.

Wrapping in foil I would call braising, but paper? Hardly.. it slows down cooking if anything.

Kamados have lots of humidity (no idea on %) and they reflect a lot of heat, so I've found they cook big cuts of meat a bit quicker than most cookers.

OklaDustDevil
06-05-2018, 01:55 PM
For the OP, just don’t believe you have to wrap to smoke a great brisket. I know it has become super-fashionable to wrap, mainly (IMHO) caused by the popularity of BBQ comp’s and tv shows, and I see all kinds of debates on here about foil vs. butcher paper, when to wrap, when to unwrap, etc. But one can smoke a great brisket without wrapping. In fact, in the YouTube comparisons I’ve seen (one by Aaron Franklin & one by Babyback Maniac), the cooks were surprised to sort of find the unwrapped version was best.

So there may be process changes you should make, but I assure you that you can do it without wrapping. I’ve smoked briskets for 30+ years on stickburners and never wrapped, and if I can do it I’m sure you can too!

m-fine
06-05-2018, 02:36 PM
ill say it one more time, just in case it was missed.

brisket flat really needs a braise. it doesnt have enough fat to protect it during a long cook, and it is a thin piece of meat that drys out easily.

you learn how to braise and you never have another dry flat. even franklin bbq braises brisket.

thank me later

I make braised briskets and smoked briskets. You donít need to braise it and you donít even need to wrap it. Just because you donít know how to smoke one doesnít mean others canít learn.

m-fine
06-05-2018, 02:45 PM
For the OP, I think it was over cooked and cooked for too long, but it also may have been unevenly cooked with parts over cooked and parts undercooked.

IMHO, a large brisket like that is better if cooked a little hotter to get done sooner, or at least transition to a hold sooner. 16 hours is a long time to evaporate out so I try and get them off the smoke in 10-12 hours or less. That would mean cooking closer to 275-300 for an 18 lb packer.

I would also guess one or both of your temp readings was inaccurate. Where and how was the grill temp measured? How well does that represent what the meat saw? Also, in the kamado, I found the gap between deflector and drip pan and the meat matters. Use spacers, brick, bolts whatever to get the brisket 3-4” or more above the tray below. That should help get more even heat.

Norm
06-05-2018, 03:52 PM
Depending on the brisket I cut about 1/3 of the flat to grind for burger. That leaves a bit more uniform thickness of what's left.

Sometimes I wrap with paper but it's not really butcher paper which can sometimes have a coating on one side. Mine is similar to the paper bags you get in some grocery stores. When I do wrap with it the paper is soaked but no liquid is inside.

It is not braised in the typical sense of the method. You hold a bit more moisture and heat so it cooks a bit faster. If solid bark is your thing then do it nekid and flip a couple of times.

No idea of what went wrong the 1st try but keep at it and you'll get the hang of it. Good luck!

el luchador
06-05-2018, 04:41 PM
I make braised briskets and smoked briskets. You donít need to braise it and you donít even need to wrap it. Just because you donít know how to smoke one doesnít mean others canít learn.

lol.

Aaron Franklin also doesn't know how to smoke since he wraps his briskets.

Teach us Shifu

LMAO.

smoke ninja
06-05-2018, 05:10 PM
Depending on the brisket I cut about 1/3 of the flat to grind for burger. That leaves a bit more uniform thickness of what's left.

Sometimes I wrap with paper but it's not really butcher paper which can sometimes have a coating on one side. Mine is similar to the paper bags you get in some grocery stores. When I do wrap with it the paper is soaked but no liquid is inside.

It is not braised in the typical sense of the method. You hold a bit more moisture and heat so it cooks a bit faster. If solid bark is your thing then do it nekid and flip a couple of times.

No idea of what went wrong the 1st try but keep at it and you'll get the hang of it. Good luck!

Good advice. If its not gonna cook up into good brisket then don't cook it.

Flat makes decent jerky too.

Burnt at Both Endz
06-05-2018, 05:42 PM
I make braised briskets and smoked briskets. You don’t need to braise it and you don’t even need to wrap it. Just because you don’t know how to smoke one doesn’t mean others can’t learn.

I too was taught that you need to learn how to smoke brisket, before you start making pot roast, or you'll never understand what brisket is all about.:cool:

Burnt at Both Endz
06-05-2018, 05:54 PM
lol.

Aaron Franklin also doesn't know how to smoke since he wraps his briskets.

Teach us Shifu

LMAO.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aaron+franklin+comparing+brisket&&view=detail&mid=9E4F5A5D03FEDF59A62C9E4F5A5D03FEDF59A62C&&FORM=VRDGAR

CentralOhioBBQ
06-05-2018, 06:04 PM
I make braised briskets and smoked briskets. You don’t need to braise it and you don’t even need to wrap it. Just because you don’t know how to smoke one doesn’t mean others can’t learn.

Lol.

Can def smoke a naked brisket all the way home to a perfect finish. Also, when someone wraps midway or near the end of the cook, they still smoked the brisket. This is universally agreed upon.

aks801
06-05-2018, 06:20 PM
Personally I think the OP should go back to square one. MINIMIZE the variables. Get a baseline. Like, no injecting, no wrapping. Do a good trim. Put the brisket in while it is still cold (like, take it out of the fridge to trim while the smoker is coming up to temp). Rub it THEN (not the night before). Decide on whatever rub you want to start with, whether it is SPOG, just S&P, store-bought, whatever. Take good notes. But mainly keep it simple.

See how it turns out. Think about what you might like to change, be it the rub or anything else, but the next cook only change ONE thing. And keep on going from there, taking copious notes each time. You'll find what works for YOU and your "customers".

Enjoy the ride, hombre.

m-fine
06-05-2018, 06:20 PM
Lol.

Can def smoke a naked brisket all the way home to a perfect finish. Also, when someone wraps midway or near the end of the cook, they still smoked the brisket. This is universally agreed upon.

Yeah, but people who donít know how to braise or smoke might think that wrapping in paper is braising. You could make an argument that it is semi-steaming, maybe.

chingador
06-05-2018, 06:52 PM
To say you must braise brisket is extremely misleading. The majority of the cooking world equates braising with cooking in liquid in a pot. Granted, wrapping in foil will achieve the same result. Wrapping in paper is kind of the best of both worlds.

Pepper stout beef? Now that is some braising.

And I agree with everybody who said the brisket was overcooked. Could have had temps too high. I have cooked many of brisket on my Primo. It is a small world inside a cooker regardless. The meat is very close to the fire. If your thermo isn't dialed in you could be cooking much hotter than you may think.

CentralOhioBBQ
06-05-2018, 06:56 PM
Yeah, but people who donít know how to braise or smoke might think that wrapping in paper is braising. You could make an argument that it is semi-steaming, maybe.

Roflmao. :eusa_clap

BigKing
06-05-2018, 07:23 PM
Agree with it being overcooked and the possibility of a faulty temp probe.


I don't have BGE experience, but I've been doing briskets regularly now for the last little bit here. I think I fall under the "aggressive" camp when it comes to trimming to the point I'm now trimming the fat cap off of pork butts as well. I almost always wrap so maybe that helps me get away with it, but I would suggest trimming more of the fat if you aren't going to eat it.



You now know how much of it renders so you have a better baseline for how much to trim on your next one. My first brisket was dry but I think it was under cooked as I was a slave to temp and not probe tenderness. I will not be surprised when you let us know that you nailed your next brisket cook.

Bob C Cue
06-05-2018, 07:24 PM
As much as I hate to post anything that supports EL :grin:, I just happened to see this on Amazingribs.com so it must be true:

"The Texas Crutch is a technique for speeding the cooking and moisturizing the meat. The concept is that you smoke for a few hours, and when the meat hits about 150įF, wrap it tightly in heavy-duty foil or untreated butcher paper (never plastic wrap) and let it braise and steam in its own juices in the crutch in the cooker. Some folks wrap at 150įF, others when the stall kicks in, others when the color looks right to them."

Bob C Cue
06-05-2018, 08:46 PM
I too was taught that you need to learn how to smoke brisket, before you start making pot roast, or you'll never understand what brisket is all about.:cool:

Mrs.Scmidt 4th grade science class. Am I right?

The Wookiee
06-05-2018, 08:52 PM
Personally I think the OP should go back to square one. MINIMIZE the variables. Get a baseline. Like, no injecting, no wrapping. Do a good trim. Put the brisket in while it is still cold (like, take it out of the fridge to trim while the smoker is coming up to temp). Rub it THEN (not the night before). Decide on whatever rub you want to start with, whether it is SPOG, just S&P, store-bought, whatever. Take good notes. But mainly keep it simple.

See how it turns out. Think about what you might like to change, be it the rub or anything else, but the next cook only change ONE thing. And keep on going from there, taking copious notes each time. You'll find what works for YOU and your "customers".

Enjoy the ride, hombre.

Agree. Start basic; micro-tinker from there...

smoke ninja
06-05-2018, 08:54 PM
I too was taught that you need to learn how to smoke brisket, before you start making pot roast, or you'll never understand what brisket is all about.:cool:

I learned the other way around

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57815&highlight=night+train+brisket

I cooked a pot roast to learn the feel

LYU370
06-05-2018, 09:11 PM
What is this wrapping, braising thing that you talk about. Only thing I've ever "wrapped" was PSB & beef cheeks for Barbacoa.

el luchador
06-05-2018, 09:40 PM
As much as I hate to post anything that supports EL :grin:, I just happened to see this on Amazingribs.com so it must be true:

"The Texas Crutch is a technique for speeding the cooking and moisturizing the meat. The concept is that you smoke for a few hours, and when the meat hits about 150įF, wrap it tightly in heavy-duty foil or untreated butcher paper (never plastic wrap) and let it braise and steam in its own juices in the crutch in the cooker. Some folks wrap at 150įF, others when the stall kicks in, others when the color looks right to them."

:thumb:

do you own a big expensive stick burner? or a hunsaker? :wink:

Demosthenes9
06-05-2018, 09:46 PM
Some of the responses in this thread are absolutely hilarious and amazing. Apologies to Meathead, but wrapping in either butcher paper or foil is not the same as braising. In a braise, you add liquid so that it is about half the height of the meat and there's plenty of air above the meat in the sealed pot. The liquid is a more efficient conductor of heat as is the steam that gets trapped in the pot and has room to circulate.


When you wrap a brisket, you don't pour in a couple of cups of broth. You simply take the brisket out of the smoker, lay it on the foil or paper, wrap tightly and put it back on the smoker. Yes, there will be some steam and liquid, but it's not the same thing. You're basically creating a maximum humidity environment that slows/prevents evaporative cooling.



Second, you don't have to wrap a brisket. People have been smoking them successfully for years without doing so.



Third, brisket flat specifically doesn't require a braise to be cooked successfully. Put the thing in an indirect heat zone and just cook it until it's done. It will be fine. The moisture will come from the breakdown of the collagen/connective tissue.

Bob C Cue
06-05-2018, 10:18 PM
Thus continues the "Great Braising Controversy of 2018."

el luchador
06-05-2018, 10:31 PM
Third, brisket flat specifically doesn't require a braise to be cooked successfully. Put the thing in an indirect heat zone and just cook it until it's done. It will be fine. The moisture will come from the breakdown of the collagen/connective tissue.

brisket can be cooked successfully without braising. thus a braise is not a requirement.

braising greatly improves the chances of success for beginners and seasoned pros alike.

Demosthenes9
06-05-2018, 11:51 PM
brisket can be cooked successfully without braising. thus a braise is not a requirement.

braising greatly improves the chances of success for beginners and seasoned pros alike.


heh, if you say so.

m-fine
06-06-2018, 04:43 AM
First you say:

ill say it one more time, just in case it was missed.

brisket flat really needs a braise. it doesnt have enough fat to protect it during a long cook, and it is a thin piece of meat that drys out easily.


Then you change your tune:

brisket can be cooked successfully without braising. thus a braise is not a requirement.

braising greatly improves the chances of success for beginners and seasoned pros alike.

Still wrong. You should try actually braising a brisket.

Here you go...

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/articles/552-how-to-braise-brisket

Note how even professional cooks can struggle with dry brisket even with braising if not done right. Braising liquid is no miracle cure for beginners.

When you have braising figured out, try smoking one.

Note that the technique that they use for temp management in braising also works for smoking, but over a longer period. Try smoking at a higher temp at first, and then when you get to 180, cut the smoker temp and hold the meat in the 180-200 range until tender. You can and should also do an extended hold in a cooler or a holding oven. The hold period makes a more tender yet juicy brisket. That is what Frankin is really doing at the restaurant, not braising.

el luchador
06-06-2018, 07:33 AM
Lol. Not wrong and didn't change my tune.

Brisket can be smoked without a braise if you have a fully loaded smoker and have a way to control humidity and generate high levels of it, provided you have a brisket that doesn't have a 1" thick flat which is all I see nowadays

For average Joe , or Aaron Franklin, braising provides that humidity and gives a far greater chance of success.


Please post some pics of your brisket flats. Youve been a member for years and never posted even one pic. Thanks. thanks. Lol


Edit. BTW here is mine since I know you'll ask
https://i.imgur.com/siETauS.jpg

m-fine
06-06-2018, 07:50 AM
I am only posting to correct the stupid miss information you post so others don’t get led astray. I have no interest in directly feeding a troll or getting in a mud wrestling match with a pig. Yes your penis is bigger, let’s move along.

el luchador
06-06-2018, 08:05 AM
LMAO. I guess we will never see a brisket flat pic from m-fine. EVER!

Sickboy579
06-06-2018, 08:07 AM
As for myself, I’ve never found it so complicated as all this here. My only experience has been offset stickburners. 15#-18# packers. Trim some fat, basic rub, naked and dry smoke. 250* until it’s done, FTC for 3-4 hours and never lost a soldier on my watch. Nothing for nothing, it’s always been very simple. Juicy, slices good, holds together and pulls easy. Keep trying, slower and lower if need be.

CentralOhioBBQ
06-06-2018, 08:17 AM
Lol. Not wrong and didn't change my tune.

Brisket can be smoked without a braise if you have a fully loaded smoker and have a way to control humidity and generate high levels of it, provided you have a brisket that doesn't have a 1" thick flat which is all I see nowadays

For average Joe , or Aaron Franklin, braising provides that humidity and gives a far greater chance of success.


Please post some pics of your brisket flats. Youve been a member for years and never posted even one pic. Thanks. thanks. Lol


Edit. BTW here is mine since I know you'll ask
https://i.imgur.com/siETauS.jpg

EL - you sliced you're brisket incorrectly. Separate the point and flat then slice each against the grain (the grain of the cuts run different ways). Also, you're seriously lacking bark, a key to great brisket. Try smoking till 160ish and then wrapping - as opposed to braising. IF you do this you'll aslo develop a much more robust smoke ring than that baby one you have in the pic.

Keep practicing, you'll get there..

JS-TX
06-06-2018, 08:54 AM
Braising will help you get a tender brisket, but it will also give you BBQ pot roast. I choose to add very little liquids if anything in the foil, and then put the brisket back on the cooker for about 20min when it's done to firm up the bark. I also like to use coarse spices (mainly salt and pepper) to help me get a nice bark. I use other spices/rubs too for flavor but always a layer of the coarse stuff.

bobaftt
06-06-2018, 10:21 AM
when I have a "bad" brisket I have the absolute best chili shortly thereafter.

el luchador
06-06-2018, 10:23 AM
EL - you sliced you're brisket incorrectly. Separate the point and flat then slice each against the grain (the grain of the cuts run different ways). Also, you're seriously lacking bark, a key to great brisket. Try smoking till 160ish and then wrapping - as opposed to braising. IF you do this you'll aslo develop a much more robust smoke ring than that baby one you have in the pic.

Keep practicing, you'll get there..

:thumb:
thank you for the advice shifu

Steve S
06-06-2018, 11:39 AM
Wrapping in foil does not equal braising, even with the addition of some liquid.... still.

Bob C Cue
06-06-2018, 12:21 PM
Most of you guys are BBQ posers who wouldn't know a properly cooked brisket if it smacked you in the face and jiggled just right! I on the other hand nail them time after time with one arm tied behind my back. Here is one of my typical perfectly smoked briskies! Eat your heart out guys.

CentralOhioBBQ
06-06-2018, 01:16 PM
Most of you guys are BBQ posers who wouldn't know a properly cooked brisket if it smacked you in the face and jiggled just right! I on the other hand nail them time after time with one arm tied behind my back. Here is one of my typical perfectly smoked briskies! Eat your heart out guys.


You need to learn how to properly rub your meat. Did you use minced garlic?

http://www.shopfoodex.com/images/0007096900006_150X150.jpg

CentralOhioBBQ
06-06-2018, 01:21 PM
This is how it's done. Take notes on the color and bark.

Burnt at Both Endz
06-06-2018, 01:32 PM
This is how it's done. Take notes on the color and bark.

Not too bad for a Walmart brisket!:razz:

Demosthenes9
06-06-2018, 01:45 PM
Lol. Not wrong and didn't change my tune.

Brisket can be smoked without a braise if you have a fully loaded smoker and have a way to control humidity and generate high levels of it, provided you have a brisket that doesn't have a 1" thick flat which is all I see nowadays

For average Joe , or Aaron Franklin, braising provides that humidity and gives a far greater chance of success.





Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. you don't need a fully loaded smoker, nor do you need some magical way to control humidity.


You can smoke a flat all by itself in an offset stickburner, a vertical gas, electric, gravity fed or stick burner, a UDS, a WSM or any other smoker. There's only 2 things that you really need to do. First, keep it OUT of direct thermal air flow. You do this with diffusers / baffles. Then, you need to know wtf you are doing, i.e. how to tell when a brisket is done.



That's basically it. For all the talk otherwise, smoking a brisket is remarkably uncomplicated. Stick it into a smoker under indirect heat and cook it until it's done. It's that freaking easy. Even for a flat.

Bob C Cue
06-06-2018, 01:54 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. you don't need a fully loaded smoker, nor do you need some magical way to control humidity.


You can smoke a flat all by itself in an offset stickburner, a vertical gas, electric, gravity fed or stick burner, a UDS, a WSM or any other smoker. There's only 2 things that you really need to do. First, keep it OUT of direct thermal air flow. You do this with diffusers / baffles. Then, you need to know wtf you are doing, i.e. how to tell when a brisket is done.



That's basically it. For all the talk otherwise, smoking a brisket is remarkably uncomplicated. Stick it into a smoker under indirect heat and cook it until it's done. It's that freaking easy. Even for a flat.

Amen. And when you do it right it turns out like this. Note the heavenly bark, the obligatory smoke ring and the flow of juices:

CentralOhioBBQ
06-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Amen. And when you do it right it turns out like this. Note the heavenly bark, the obligatory smoke ring and the flow of juices:


One more thing on this minced garlic rubbed flat. You sliced with the grain, rookie.

el luchador
06-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. you don't need a fully loaded smoker, nor do you need some magical way to control humidity.


You can smoke a flat all by itself in an offset stickburner, a vertical gas, electric, gravity fed or stick burner, a UDS, a WSM or any other smoker. There's only 2 things that you really need to do. First, keep it OUT of direct thermal air flow. You do this with diffusers / baffles. Then, you need to know wtf you are doing, i.e. how to tell when a brisket is done.



That's basically it. For all the talk otherwise, smoking a brisket is remarkably uncomplicated. Stick it into a smoker under indirect heat and cook it until it's done. It's that freaking easy. Even for a flat.

OK :thumb:

Burnt at Both Endz
06-06-2018, 02:28 PM
One more thing on this minced garlic rubbed flat. You sliced with the grain, rookie.

You sure he didn't just cut of the point and your looking at the end of the flat?

CentralOhioBBQ
06-06-2018, 02:33 PM
You sure he didn't just cut of the point and your looking at the end of the flat?

No. Funny either way. Just messing w Bob, he can take jabs as well as he can deliver them.

LordRiffenstein
06-07-2018, 06:47 AM
You can smoke a flat all by itself in an offset stickburner, a vertical gas, electric, gravity fed or stick burner, a UDS, a WSM or any other smoker. There's only 2 things that you really need to do. First, keep it OUT of direct thermal air flow. You do this with diffusers / baffles. Then, you need to know wtf you are doing, i.e. how to tell when a brisket is

1 flat smoked on a stick burner, nothing else on there, did wrap in BP and after a 2,5 hour rest.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180514/a39b2ea8bf6a77fbd44b3646eadceac9.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180514/19b613625730ac3742d58f531fa1f075.jpg[/QUOTE]

el luchador
06-07-2018, 12:27 PM
Damn Professionals who dont know what the heck they are doing :mrgreen:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/food/the-importance-of-wrapping-brisket/

CentralOhioBBQ
06-07-2018, 01:15 PM
Damn Professionals who dont know what the heck they are doing :mrgreen:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/food/the-importance-of-wrapping-brisket/


I'm missing what holding strategy has to do with what we were discussing? If anything, this article de-bunks your braising position.

m-fine
06-07-2018, 01:27 PM
I'm missing what holding strategy has to do with what we were discussing? If anything, this article de-bunks your braising position.

Ignore the troll. He clearly has no actual cooking knowledge beyond what he can google and link, and I think he only posts here to pick fights. The article shows that most pros wrap later in the cook or not until the hold, which is what most home cooks who know how to make a good brisket do as well. That said, there is variation in their methods because there are multiple paths to good BBQ and also multiple opinions on exactly what constitutes the perfect brisket.

smoke ninja
06-07-2018, 01:47 PM
I'm missing what holding strategy has to do with what we were discussing? If anything, this article de-bunks your braising position.

EL cannot see the forest through the trees. Hes so worried about defining terms that he misses the point. Who cares what wrapping is or isn't it it works for you then it's a win. In an effort to be smarter than everyone else he is missing the point

el luchador
06-07-2018, 02:55 PM
lol @ you guys.

I posted it that article because I tried to give the op advice that if he wrapped his brisket to braise he wouldnt have to deal with dry meat, but then I got jumped on by a couple of the macho man types who only burn wood in the mongo side offset and dont need no stinking wrap. So, here is further proof that most of the pros who do this for a living and depend on repeat customers, also wrap.

here is another one.lol

https://bbq.tamu.edu/2013/11/04/briskets-to-wrap-or-not-to-wrap/

We fed both the wrapped and unwrapped briskets to the class, and when we asked the students which they liked, more of them preferred the wrapped briskets than the unwrapped briskets.

CentralOhioBBQ
06-07-2018, 05:42 PM
No worries, no need to bicker back and forth. It’s fine to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t argue that more people wrap than don’t, but I also believe guys like m-fine can consistently cook great brisket without.

Demosthenes9
06-07-2018, 06:09 PM
lol @ you guys.

I posted it that article because I tried to give the op advice that if he wrapped his brisket to braise he wouldnt have to deal with dry meat, but then I got jumped on by a couple of the macho man types who only burn wood in the mongo side offset and dont need no stinking wrap. So, here is further proof that most of the pros who do this for a living and depend on repeat customers, also wrap.

here is another one.lol

https://bbq.tamu.edu/2013/11/04/briskets-to-wrap-or-not-to-wrap/

We fed both the wrapped and unwrapped briskets to the class, and when we asked the students which they liked, more of them preferred the wrapped briskets than the unwrapped briskets.




Bull****. Now you either have an extremely faulty memory or you are flat out lying. here is what you originally said:




ill say it one more time, just in case it was missed.

brisket flat really needs a braise. it doesnt have enough fat to protect it during a long cook, and it is a thin piece of meat that drys out easily.

you learn how to braise and you never have another dry flat. even franklin bbq braises brisket.

thank me later


MFine and I called out the errors in your statement. The FACT is that brisket flat don't "really needs a braise". it doesn't need to have fat to protect it during a long cook. And no, wrapping STILL isn't braising. As for your links, guess what else many people wrap ? Freaking Boston Butts. Are you going to sit here and say that a Butt, with over 30+ % fat doesn't have enough fat to protect it during a long cook either ?

People wrap for several reasons. One, it cuts down on the cooking time and as basically eliminates the stall. I'd explain the science, but I'm sure that it would go right over your head. Second, they want to preserve a mahogany color instead of getting some nice, deliciously dark candied bark. Third, yes, the foiling is one way, but not the only way to help with tenderness. BUT, as M-fine pointed out, you can still dry out a brisket or turn it to string if you aren't careful. So guess what ? You still have to know wtf you are doing.




Oh, and no, I don't have some bejeesus stick burner. As a matter of fact, I run two propane smokers fed with wood chunks. I will wrap brisket, ribs and butts sometimes, other times I'll run them naked for the entire cook. Both ways work. Problem is, you made an bs statement that was just flat out wrong and you were called on it.

m-fine
06-07-2018, 06:10 PM
No worries, no need to bicker back and forth. Itís fine to agree to disagree. I wouldnít argue that more people wrap than donít, but I also believe guys like m-fine can consistently cook great brisket without.

To be clear...

1) All my briskets end up wrapped at some point, at a minimum before they go into a cooler or holding oven.

2) I donít have a single technique for brisket that I use every time. Depending on my time, mood, etc., or if I want to experiment a little, I may cook at different temps and wrap in foil, paper, or leave naked until the hold. If I want it done fast, I cook hotter and wrap even though I prefer the results from a longer cook and the bark from a naked cook. Real life, a lack of trustworthy BBQ employees, and the need for sleep sometimes get in the way of the pursuit of perfection, so I would guess about half the time I am wrapping before the cook is done.

Steve S
06-08-2018, 10:02 AM
Amen.

OklaDustDevil
06-09-2018, 08:05 PM
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aaron+franklin+comparing+brisket&&view=detail&mid=9E4F5A5D03FEDF59A62C9E4F5A5D03FEDF59A62C&&FORM=VRDGAR

That’s one of the videos I referenced in my earlier post.

I think one reason folks prefer unwrapped in head-to-head comparisons is texture, both the bark and the meat.

OklaDustDevil
06-09-2018, 08:12 PM
Can def smoke a naked brisket all the way home to a perfect finish. Also, when someone wraps midway or near the end of the cook, they still smoked the brisket. This is universally agreed upon.

I agree itís been smoked, I just donít understand why folks continue to smoke it after wrapping. Might as well put it in an indoor oven and avoid the expense and vagaries of managing the smoker, tracking the temp, feeding the fire, etc. The meat wonít take any more smoke after wrapping, whether in foil or BP, so might as well take it inside and relax.

Rockinar
06-09-2018, 08:56 PM
Most of you guys are BBQ posers who wouldn't know a properly cooked brisket if it smacked you in the face and jiggled just right! I on the other hand nail them time after time with one arm tied behind my back. Here is one of my typical perfectly smoked briskies! Eat your heart out guys.



LOL Holy Jesus.....That's not being served to Nosferatu is it?