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yakdung
07-17-2017, 08:23 PM
No time for low and slow.

Enjoy,

http://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq-snob/john-mueller-black-box-barbecue/

Jason TQ
07-17-2017, 08:50 PM
Ya hot is fun. I start my stick burner that hot. It comes down some and things don't take as long.

pjtexas1
07-17-2017, 09:00 PM
I've done 400 a couple of times. Just gotta watch the bark and wrap for sure. I like his attitude good or bad.

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WareZdaBeef
07-17-2017, 09:10 PM
Im calling BS on 400 right off the jump. I don't care what anyone says, you put any piece of meat in a 400F cooker with any source of Nitrogen oxide, it aint comming out with a ring like in those pics. Not saying you can't get a nice ring if you finish at those temps, just saying it wont have a chance to form if thats the starting temp.

yakdung
07-17-2017, 09:26 PM
SRF H&F recipe:

http://www.snakeriverfarms.com/hot-fast-brisket

TM H&F article:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq/hot-and-fast-brisket/

Jason TQ
07-17-2017, 09:29 PM
Im calling BS on 400 right off the jump. I don't care what anyone says, you put any piece of meat in a 400F cooker with any source of Nitrogen oxide, it aint comming out with a ring like in those pics. Not saying you can't get a nice ring if you finish at those temps, just saying it wont have a chance to form if thats the starting temp.

I ran 400 starting and for the first hour of this cook and 350 the next 2 before wrapping and on this page you see the ring. Quite prominent.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249192&page=4

gtr
07-17-2017, 09:36 PM
Whatever he does, it's a damn good way to go. John Mueller Meat Co. was definitely one of my overall favorite spots I've been to, and this place looks to be about the same deal as far as the food goes - maybe it'll feel like a yard party here too. I've heard he can be inconsistent, but we got him on a good day for sure. I'm hoping to be out that way in November and this spot is on the must hit list.

WareZdaBeef
07-17-2017, 09:40 PM
I ran 400 starting and for the first hour of this cook and 350 the next 2 before wrapping and on this page you see the ring. Quite prominent.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249192&page=4

Your ring is more pink and deeper into the meat. Which means the chemical reaction had a chance to form on the surface and seep into the meat. Something similar to the effect cure would have. I am talking about that thin "prominent" dark red ring. I have not been able to get that by starting off hot. The surface reaching the non reaction temp long before it can concentrate. I Do get that by starting off low. Maybe if you were not burning clean initially, it might work.

pjtexas1
07-17-2017, 10:01 PM
Ware...try starting with a really cold brisket. I start sometimes with one that is right at freezing in the middle.

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WareZdaBeef
07-17-2017, 10:13 PM
Ware...try starting with a really cold brisket. I start sometimes with one that is right at freezing in the middle.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I don't know how much effect that would have on the surface though. Maybe if the surface was frozen. Like apply your rub, and before your about to toss on the smoker, put in the freezer for 30 min to an hour. Might work for hot and fast.

Nuco59
07-18-2017, 06:18 AM
Smoke ring? I get good one- that's nice. I don't get a good one- that's ok too. Fretting over something that does not add to the taste is sort of a waste (to me anyway)

If you happen to be one of those who are fixated on a good smoke ring- party on. I hope you find your answers.

I'm making dinner- not worrying about how it looks in a picture. :-D

WareZdaBeef
07-18-2017, 06:28 AM
Smoke ring? I get good one- that's nice. I don't get a good one- that's ok too. Fretting over something that does not add to the taste is sort of a waste (to me anyway)

If you happen to be one of those who are fixated on a good smoke ring- party on. I hope you find your answers.

I'm making dinner- not worrying about how it looks in a picture. :-D

I hear what your saying, but if you know you can achieve one, wouldn't you want to repeat it, and learn exactly how? Maybe i am just more into the science of things then most.

Also, i think its important for a bbq restaurant since most people taste with their eye's first.

Jrogers84
07-18-2017, 06:57 AM
I get cooking hot and fast. I dont get not letting the meat rest for a bit. Pointless and youre only hurting your customers.

Pocchampion
07-18-2017, 07:03 AM
Do not get the fascination with getting a smoke ring. Does not have anything to do with flavor.

I have enjoyed cooking hot and fast but have tried 400. Gonna have to try soon.

sudsandswine
07-18-2017, 07:15 AM
You're right, no impact on flavor itself but we eat with our eyes. All else being equal, if I could choose between ring and no ring, it's ring every time.

If I didn't get a ring I would not be disappointed, but I would be trying to figure out why I did not because they are present in almost every cook I do so something must have been different with the cook.

sliding_billy
07-18-2017, 11:51 AM
I read the article twice and still had to search the browser page for "400" to be honest. The way it sounds is a lot more anecdotal than scientific. Is that a grate temp held steady for an entire cook? I think we are overthinking things a bit. I'm sure John doesn't cook 225-250, but I'm also guessing that 400 was just thrown out there to make a point that he cooks hotter and faster than some magical old BBQ number (that was only really magical IMO because it was somewhere that pits that lost extreme amounts of heat could live). Letting the meat sit wrapped for a while in foil or paper is far more important especially when cooking at high temp.

Nuco59
07-18-2017, 12:39 PM
Ok- fair enough. Given a choice between good bbq brisket- one has prominent smoke ring and the other does not- and they are equally juicy, nice pull, decent bark? I'd take the one with the ring and probably every time- even though I know it's not an indication of quality one way or the other.

No way I could knock a guy on his BBQ saying "yeah - it's the best I ever put in my mouth- damned shame I'm going have to deduct points because of the no ring. (unless he was a good buddy and I was jacking with him... hard)

nautique1228
07-18-2017, 01:54 PM
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249097

Texan79423
07-18-2017, 07:09 PM
400 hot and fast. That's kind of like a quicky. Wham bam thank you mam. Not as much fun but...

CeramicChef
07-18-2017, 07:39 PM
Smoke ring? KCBS doesn't even use this as a judging criteria anymore. Why? It means nothing. It's so easy to manufacture it isn't even funny. All you do is grab a box/bag of Morton Salt's TenderQuick, rub the meat with it, let it rest, rinse, cook, and voila! Smoke ring.

It doesn't matter if the temp is 225° or 400°, it just doesn't matter. You get a smoke ring that everyone gushes over at the party declaring what a great smoke ring and thus great BBQ! Anyone who knows anything about BBQ just smiles that knowing smile.

m-fine
07-18-2017, 08:29 PM
KCBS judging standard have absolutely no relevance to good cuisine. Appearance and presentation are huge parts of the dining experience and are just as important as flavor and texture. If a restaurant, add ambiance and service. It all matters. If you suck at one part, it may be tempting to brush it off as unimportant, but you are only deluding yourself.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-18-2017, 08:36 PM
I used to cook my brisket at 425. Won brisket a few times. If you can get paid in 3 hours or less...

Always had a smoke ring with no enhancers.

Know a hand full that cook hotter and have a ring.

pjtexas1
07-18-2017, 08:45 PM
I used to cook my brisket at 425. Won brisket a few times. If you can get paid in 3 hours or less...

Always had a smoke ring with no enhancers.

Know a hand full that cook hotter and have a ring.This is the guy that convinced me to try 400. He knows his chit. Funny how he caught nothing but crap just for saying brisket and 400 in the same sentence.

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Pitmaster T
07-18-2017, 09:13 PM
Im calling BS on 400 right off the jump. I don't care what anyone says, you put any piece of meat in a 400F cooker with any source of Nitrogen oxide, it aint comming out with a ring like in those pics. Not saying you can't get a nice ring if you finish at those temps, just saying it wont have a chance to form if thats the starting temp.

you are so correct!

BUT... rings and that temp can be dependent upon the equipment. In my meat mama I can get a ring at 375 that I know of. In MY UDS I can't get a damn ring at 250.

you earned a pic. http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54d8ed53e40c8_-_braised-brisket-woman-0910-lg-88673427.jpgSave

Pitmaster T
07-18-2017, 09:18 PM
This is the guy that convinced me to try 400. He knows his chit. Funny how he caught nothing but crap just for saying brisket and 400 in the same sentence.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I long time ago. Like maybe 2007, under another name both here and in NBBQNews, I got RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROASSTED for mentioning temps above 225.

gtr
07-18-2017, 09:22 PM
^^^did they roast you at 225? :noidea:

Pitmaster T
07-18-2017, 09:25 PM
I am not gonna pick on you, just this first sentence. So "you" doesn't mean "you," okay? I think you are making the same case but I wanna extend that.

Regarding "KCBS doesn't even use this as a judging criteria anymore."

***** that rule. If you think a ring doesn't impress the judge in some way you are as dumb as a bag of dildos. For one, even in KCBS, I have seen judges that are not credentialed, and in IBCA - forget it. Two, there are a minority of judges who listen to every rule of KCBS because if they did, nothing would get done (the scoring numbers and adjectives come to mind). 6th.. to all the goodie 2 shoes out there who are gonna get all pissy because I said judges DO let the ring impact appearance scores - ***** yall. Its the truth. I talk to them, I overhear "not much smoke ring on that one" after the cards are turned in and we talk.

So my advice... it u like 2 win???????????????? betta put a ring on it.

Unless you like holding your dick in your hand as you wonder why you got an 8 appearance and figure, "there's no way it was my ring cuz the RULES say they can't do that."

Now... of to my sauna... where sauna girl needs her stomach rubbed.

Smoke ring? KCBS doesn't even use this as a judging criteria anymore. Why? It means nothing. It's so easy to manufacture it isn't even funny. All you do is grab a box/bag of Morton Salt's TenderQuick, rub the meat with it, let it rest, rinse, cook, and voila! Smoke ring.

It doesn't matter if the temp is 225° or 400°, it just doesn't matter. You get a smoke ring that everyone gushes over at the party declaring what a great smoke ring and thus great BBQ! Anyone who knows anything about BBQ just smiles that knowing smile.

WareZdaBeef
07-18-2017, 09:28 PM
you are so correct!

BUT... rings and that temp can be dependent upon the equipment. In my meat mama I can get a ring at 375 that I know of. In MY UDS I can't get a damn ring at 250.

you earned a pic. http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54d8ed53e40c8_-_braised-brisket-woman-0910-lg-88673427.jpgSave
Is that a young Rachel Ray? Also, that brisket doesn't have a ring, would not [email protected] mean eat.

Pitmaster T
07-18-2017, 09:32 PM
Is that a young Rachel Ray? Also, that brisket doesn't have a ring, would not [email protected] mean eat.

No... I was teaching her the Night Train Experiment.

Popdaddy just did it on that greasy countertop after we were done slicing. Talk about board dressing!

For more than the video on the Night Train see this

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57959

Pitmaster T
07-18-2017, 09:39 PM
I did some experiments with TQ suspended in Oil, Water, sprinkled on, and best bet... within the rub you put on just before you smoke.... the most realistic looking ring was in water or a very small amount in the rub - both... immediately before you put them on the smoker at 250 or hotter.

Panupat
07-19-2017, 02:36 AM
What IT would you pull when you cooking at 425?

m-fine
07-19-2017, 06:55 AM
What IT would you pull when you cooking at 425?

Whatever IT it happens to be at when it is tender.

sleebus.jones
07-19-2017, 08:52 AM
Whatever IT it happens to be at when it is tender.

Ding! Ding! We have a winner. :thumb:

Panupat
07-19-2017, 09:11 AM
Would it get overcooked after you rest it and it continued cooking? I got an impression that I should pull it a little bit before it's tender but that sounds pretty hard to know exactly.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-19-2017, 10:55 AM
Don't rest it the way you normally would. Vent the heat before you put it in a cooler or just throw it in the counter.

Pitmaster T
07-19-2017, 03:33 PM
You do NOT pull it when its tender anymore than a Funk Guitarist plays on the beat.

m-fine
07-19-2017, 04:35 PM
Would it get overcooked after you rest it and it continued cooking? I got an impression that I should pull it a little bit before it's tender but that sounds pretty hard to know exactly.

How long are you "resting" and at what temp?

The only reason I would ever cook brisket that fast is when I need it done to serve. So, the "rest" is uncovered and brief.

If you are cooking fast but then want to hold for 6-12 hours at 200, yeah you better pull it before it is tender.

SmittyJonz
05-07-2018, 05:41 PM
https://i.imgur.com/pAl4TbSl.jpg