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ice_mf_mike
06-10-2017, 08:17 PM
So i was at a bbq today and they smoked a brisket. Brisket was taken off at an internal of about 160. Was actually quite tender and juicy which was surprising since most say to take it up to close to 200. I know i have over cooked a few briskets so this was a surprising thing for me to see.

Curious if others are pulling briskets off this early?

JS-TX
06-10-2017, 08:35 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the thermometer was way off, but who knows, it could of been ready. I haven't checked my brisket temp in about 5 years, I just do the probe test with a wooden skewer.

wihint
06-10-2017, 08:37 PM
Wow they might need to calibrate their thermometer. That is about 40 degrees +/- before being probe tender. Glad it was good though!

mchar69
06-10-2017, 08:45 PM
Was it pink? I saw that this Memorial Day and chef thought it ok....

m-fine
06-10-2017, 08:59 PM
If you cook long enough at a low temp, it can be done at 150 or even 135. There is no such thing as a done temp with tough cuts. You cook until it has been hot enough long enough to get tender. The temperature the meat hits by that point has to do with the temperature you cook at.

Okie Sawbones
06-10-2017, 09:01 PM
Sorry, but even prime briskets are not done at 160F. Have you calibrated your thermometer?

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-10-2017, 09:02 PM
So i was at a bbq today and they smoked a brisket. Brisket was taken off at an internal of about 160. Was actually quite tender and juicy which was surprising since most say to take it up to close to 200. I know i have over cooked a few briskets so this was a surprising thing for me to see.

Curious if others are pulling briskets off this early?

Early in my brisket smoking , I used to go for an arbitrary 203, then, like you, I realized whole sections were dry, tender, but dry.

Over time, my done temp has dropped to 195, I'll even take them off at 192, 193. It really shows itself the next day eating leftovers. Before, left overs were too dry, now they are succulent

Getting back to original question, were they using wagyu or something special? I'm surprised about the tenderness

ice_mf_mike
06-10-2017, 09:04 PM
This was a wagyu brisket if that means anything. His therm was calibrated. he also does competition cooks.

It definitely was not on for a crazy long amount of time and the smoker was around 240 the entire time.

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-10-2017, 09:05 PM
This was a wagyu brisket if that means anything. His therm was calibrated. he also does competition cooks.

It definitely was not on for a crazy long amount of time and the smoker was around 240 the entire time.

That makes all the difference! I've eaten at Japanese places where they serve paper thin slices of the wagyu and it truly is like butter. I was about to say I've never witnessed tender choice or prime briskets being tender in 160s

m-fine
06-10-2017, 10:03 PM
Sorry, but even prime briskets are not done at 160F. Have you calibrated your thermometer?

Obviously you have never had sous vide brisket. 160 would be a high done temp.

m-fine
06-10-2017, 10:10 PM
That makes all the difference! I've eaten at Japanese places where they serve paper thin slices of the wagyu and it truly is like butter. I was about to say I've never witnessed tender choice or prime briskets being tender in 160s

Not all wagyu in the US is the same purity, but I have had some cuts from a top quality source and there was definitely a huge difference in the texture of the meat and fat. One thing we noticed was how the melting temperature of the fat was much lower. I only smoked one brisket from this source and it was done much faster than the CAB briskets I smoked it with. Tender and juicy? Yes, but I actually preferred the flavor from the angus for a smoked brisket. The wagyu shines for hot and fast cuts, basically seared on the outside and near raw on the inside. At least that is what I enjoy the most.

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-10-2017, 10:56 PM
Not all wagyu in the US is the same purity, but I have had some cuts from a top quality source and there was definitely a huge difference in the texture of the meat and fat. One thing we noticed was how the melting temperature of the fat was much lower. I only smoked one brisket from this source and it was done much faster than the CAB briskets I smoked it with. Tender and juicy? Yes, but I actually preferred the flavor from the angus for a smoked brisket. The wagyu shines for hot and fast cuts, basically seared on the outside and near raw on the inside. At least that is what I enjoy the most.

Well said m-fine! The paper thin slice of Wagyu was Japanese A5 grade at Nobu restaurant and it was heaven, it also had a heavenly price tag at 50 bucks an ounce!!

I believe they prepped it exactly as you had said: ultra hot sear both sides with a near raw center

Jason TQ
06-11-2017, 12:37 AM
This was a wagyu brisket if that means anything. His therm was calibrated. he also does competition cooks.

It definitely was not on for a crazy long amount of time and the smoker was around 240 the entire time.

This statement by itself doesn't mean much :becky:. How are his brisket scores? And is 160 his comp temp? Unless this is sous vide or crazy low for days it seems near impossible for 160 to be done. We're wagyu like most and I don't even look at it after wrapping until 204.

We'd need picks of the slices to confirm doneness. Lots of unanswered questions about his method to be able to answer you original question. Did you see him take it off at 160? Did you mean he rested it and at that point it had come back down to 160? Were alien cows involved?? :becky:

ssv3
06-11-2017, 12:57 AM
:pop2:

This is going to be good.:becky:

mrbill
06-11-2017, 01:39 AM
:pop2:

This is going to be good.:becky:

either very good or extremely disappointing....only time will tell.:thumb:

Save

ice_mf_mike
06-11-2017, 06:49 AM
This statement by itself doesn't mean much :becky:. How are his brisket scores? And is 160 his comp temp? Unless this is sous vide or crazy low for days it seems near impossible for 160 to be done. We're wagyu like most and I don't even look at it after wrapping until 204.

We'd need picks of the slices to confirm doneness. Lots of unanswered questions about his method to be able to answer you original question. Did you see him take it off at 160? Did you mean he rested it and at that point it had come back down to 160? Were alien cows involved?? :becky:

answers.

I have no idea as to his brisket scores lol. That was just to say he has cooked many. It was not sous vide(though i didnt see the prep) and because i have been trying to learn how to better cook brisket i watched that temp from the time i arrived to the time it was served. It was stalled the entire time at 158 and came off and 160 4 hours later because folks were getting restless. But either way his intent was to take it up to like 170ish max. I get that everyone swears by bringing it up to 204, but based on my experience yesterday it seems like it may not always be necessary. hence my question as to if others have served it that low. Not saying it may not have been better or as you preferred with another 5 hours in the pit, but it was damn good and surprising coming off at that temp.

Pic below btw.

http://i.imgur.com/I2bryte.jpg

m-fine
06-11-2017, 08:17 AM
We're wagyu like most and I don't even look at it after wrapping until 204.

Most of what you are buying labeled as wagyu in the US is really a crossbreed with angus which itself may have been a cross breed. This stuff looks like regular Prime, cooks like Prime, and tastes like regular Prime. If it is even Prime.

True 100% pure wagyu is literally a different animal. It has more oily unsaturated fat content with a lower melting/rendering temp. If you ever have the chance to work with and eat it, pure wagyu seems more like meat from a different animal than it does a high grade of beef.

If the brisket from the OP was not pre-cooked sous vide, or held at a low smoker temp for a long time until tender, I would bet it was high purity real wagyu.

m-fine
06-11-2017, 08:30 AM
Here is a decent article on wagyu and Kobe.

https://www.bonappetit.com/entertaining-style/trends-news/article/kobe-wagyu-steak-myths/amp

EdF
06-11-2017, 08:49 AM
Obviously you have never had sous vide brisket. 160 would be a high done temp.

What's your typical temp setting and time? Smoke treatment?

Jason TQ
06-11-2017, 10:39 AM
answers.

I have no idea as to his brisket scores lol. That was just to say he has cooked many. It was not sous vide(though i didnt see the prep) and because i have been trying to learn how to better cook brisket i watched that temp from the time i arrived to the time it was served. It was stalled the entire time at 158 and came off and 160 4 hours later because folks were getting restless. But either way his intent was to take it up to like 170ish max. I get that everyone swears by bringing it up to 204, but based on my experience yesterday it seems like it may not always be necessary. hence my question as to if others have served it that low. Not saying it may not have been better or as you preferred with another 5 hours in the pit, but it was damn good and surprising coming off at that temp.

Pic below btw.

http://i.imgur.com/I2bryte.jpg

Thanks. Ya that looks pretty tight/snug to me. Wagyu can still be tasty and have juice if undercooked. I don't see any cobweb'ing of the slices like the pics below
http://i.imgur.com/m48KaJEl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SL7EYZ9l.jpg

So bottom line is if people liked it then that is great :clap2:

And 204 isn't a magic temp. But in my process that is when I check. Cooking hotter typically has higher finishing temp vs cooking lower.

m-fine
06-11-2017, 11:00 AM
What's your typical temp setting and time? Smoke treatment?

Sorry, I do not have a SV "smoked" brisket technique I am ready to recommend yet. I am not sure I ever will, as I think SV is probably more suited to replacing braising for traditional brisket recipes. Hours in a bag and good bark don't seem to go together.

jasonjax
06-11-2017, 11:46 AM
I'm thinking I could see this if, as has been mentioned, it was true pure high grade wagyu versus a cross-breed and aged decently.

I also am not a fan of the flavor of pure wagyu versus a cross-bread or prime angus type beef. It almost tastes "gamey" to me.

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-11-2017, 12:19 PM
Gorgeous all around. I trust that it was tender so that's what counts. In my brisket history , 160 is rubbery and tough like shoe leather. Even though it's USDA safe to eat , it was pretty gross in my younger days whenever I pulled below 170.

If there's any secret technique, please share ! Any special equipment or gear? I'll be impressed if he's cooking just like everyone else. Please teach me :)

m-fine
06-11-2017, 12:55 PM
Gorgeous all around. I trust that it was tender so that's what counts. In my brisket history , 160 is rubbery and tough like shoe leather. Even though it's USDA safe to eat , it was pretty gross in my younger days whenever I pulled below 170.

If there's any secret technique, please share ! Any special equipment or gear? I'll be impressed if he's cooking just like everyone else. Please teach me :)

The secret to brisket is to warm it up to 150+ and hold it there long enough for it to breakdown and get tender. That's it.

"Long enough" is a function of the temp you are holding it at and the piece of meat you started with plus other factors. A thermometer doesn't read out levels of tender which is why experienced cooks talk about probe tender, appearance, and feel.

If you want to know the secret for the piece of meat in the OP, it was likely a different breed of cow with a higher amount of fat marbling and fat that is more unsaturated with a lower melting point. Not at all comparable to your standard beef brisket.

bucko
06-11-2017, 01:09 PM
He probably let it rest then sliced it when it reached 160 no way a brisket will b tender at 160

ice_mf_mike
06-11-2017, 01:32 PM
He probably let it rest then sliced it when it reached 160 no way a brisket will b tender at 160

Nope. It was pulled off the pit at 160. Had about a 15 minute rest right on the cutting board. But thats it!

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-11-2017, 04:11 PM
The secret to brisket is to warm it up to 150+ and hold it there long enough for it to breakdown and get tender. That's it.

"Long enough" is a function of the temp you are holding it at and the piece of meat you started with plus other factors. A thermometer doesn't read out levels of tender which is why experienced cooks talk about probe tender, appearance, and feel.

If you want to know the secret for the piece of meat in the OP, it was likely a different breed of cow with a higher amount of fat marbling and fat that is more unsaturated with a lower melting point. Not at all comparable to your standard beef brisket.

Thanks m-fine! I appreciate the gouge. Do you have a secret for keeping it there at that 150 sweet spot? I know of some Texas pit masters that do the ultra low and slow with pit temps of 180-220, but man that takes patience and devotion, something I'm in short supply of these days :)

m-fine
06-11-2017, 04:19 PM
Extreme patience or Sous Vide or an oven that is capable.

mchar69
06-11-2017, 04:54 PM
I will say this is an interesting thread - I may learn from it!

McSpazatron
06-12-2017, 06:03 PM
Brisket being properly cooked at 160? When it was sliced and plated, did it require a several strokes with a knife to get through a slice of flat? A properly cooked brisket should only require a fork to cut, if that. When I probe my costco prime briskets at 160, my thermapen usually has that little squeak when I push it in, and the whole thing is utterly stiff when I lift it.

Unless was some sort if magical unicorn veal brisket, or it had been in a souvide tank for a couple of days before going on the smoker, I think that there's no way it was tender at that temp.... So long as we define tender in the same way (see JasonTQ's pic for reference).

m-fine
06-12-2017, 07:25 PM
Wow, are the "non-believers" basically accusing the OP of lying?

charcoal4brains
06-12-2017, 07:36 PM
What's your typical temp setting and time? Smoke treatment?

this guy SVs half of a flat (3-ish lb.s) at 130F for 48 hours

Sous Vide Brisket Recipe (48 Hour Cook!)

Sous Vide Brisket Recipe (48 Hour Cook!) - YouTube

Okie Sawbones
06-12-2017, 07:37 PM
Wow, are the "non-believers" basically accusing the OP of lying?

Yep, we're all just like congress... pointing fingers and calling vile names. Sheezz. Some of us speak from 40 years of experience. :roll:

mikemci
06-12-2017, 07:51 PM
Wow, are the "non-believers" basically accusing the OP of lying?

No one has called him a liar. By his own description of the event, he does not know how the meat was treated, before he arrived and it was already on the smoker, with an I.T. of 158*.
Some people just like to incite others, by false accusations.

mchar69
06-12-2017, 08:22 PM
If you want to know the secret for the piece of meat in the OP, it was likely a different breed of cow with a higher amount of fat marbling and fat that is more unsaturated with a lower melting point. Not at all comparable to your standard beef brisket.

SO.... THE SECRET'S OUT!!! EVERYONE - RUN! to your smoker and keep it at
150 for 26 hours.......

it ain't no secret. It's that people have jobs and lives and adjusted temps up to
suit the lifestyle.

Some people just like to incite others, by false accusations.
I agree, and the person doing this should stop now.

ice_mf_mike
06-12-2017, 08:28 PM
Wow, are the "non-believers" basically accusing the OP of lying?

I think folks have only seen it work one way so they cant really comprehend it being tender another way. IMO, the quality of the brisket was good enough that it simply didnt need a high temp. THe cook told me himself he never brings them higher than 170s.

As for me, because i have overcooked a brisket twice, this gives me hope that it can be taken off before 200s and still be good.

mchar69
06-12-2017, 08:37 PM
Well, he cooked Wagyu - like $150+ and we cook < wagyu at like $50.
World of difference. Wait, soon someone will chime in and explain, I don't know...

ice_mf_mike
06-12-2017, 08:40 PM
Well, he cooked Wagyu - like $150+ and we cook < wagyu at like $50.
World of difference. Wait, soon someone will chime in and explain, I don't know...

Yea i think he said he paid over 200 for a 20lber. So i mean im sure its gonna be light years more tender than the $50 choice cuts we usually smoke.

mrbill
06-12-2017, 08:52 PM
Wow, are the "non-believers" basically accusing the OP of lying?

no, they're not. they're trying to comprehend how something that is so contrary to their experience and what has been documented ad nauseum via competitions/anecdotes.....etc. is possible. i have read the entire thread and did not feel anyone was calling anyone a liar. i saw folks offering suggestions that explained it if the facts were as stated, other folks saying maybe there was a mistake of fact as given and still others positing on how the given data could produce the stated result(ie-maybe host's thermo was inaccurate). just because someone questions something, does not mean they're impuning another's integrity.

edit to add-i did post what was intended to be a humorous post earlier. to ensure it was not misconstrued, i simply meant that the underlying variable allowing the previously stated happenings would either be really interesting(new whiz bang technique/gadget) or really mundane(mistake of fact/super special meat).

m-fine
06-12-2017, 10:03 PM
Yep, we're all just like congress... pointing fingers and calling vile names. Sheezz. Some of us speak from 40 years of experience. :roll:

I am willing to bet you have exactly zero experience with smoking pure Wagyu briskets over those 40 years, especially since they have not been available in the US for more than 5 years and nearly impossible to find at retail until more recently.

All the replys saying no way, recalibrate thermometer, unicorn veal etc. are simply incorrect. There are multiple ways a brisket can be tender without getting to 200 degrees. Just because something is beyond your experience does not mean it is not possible, explained by science, or understood by others. You could try and learn something, or keep insisting the OP was wrong or missing something because what he experienced is not something you have experienced yourself.

Okie Sawbones
06-12-2017, 10:19 PM
I am willing to bet you have exactly zero experience with smoking pure Wagyu briskets over those 40 years, especially since they have not been available in the US for more than 5 years and nearly impossible to find at retail until more recently.

Then you would be dead wrong. I've tried all of the hyped meats, like Duroc pork, Wagyu beef, etc. and don't find QPR with any of them. And they are not 'magic' on the smokers. Lots of GCs out there not cooking these...

McSpazatron
06-12-2017, 10:41 PM
All the replys saying no way, recalibrate thermometer, unicorn veal etc. are simply incorrect. There are multiple ways a brisket can be tender without getting to 200 degrees. Just because something is beyond your experience does not mean it is not possible, explained by science, or understood by others. You could try and learn something, or keep insisting the OP was wrong or missing something because what he experienced is not something you have experienced yourself.

I think most on here accept that smoking at 180 for a couple of days, or souvide, are both ways to get tender brisket at lower temps.

Initially I said there was no way for it to be tender at 160 because I misunderstood that it was cooking for only 4 hours, which apparently on closer reading, was not actually said. Just that he saw it cook for 4 hours.

So a tender 160degree brisket is not really a mystery then. There was probably a lot more cooking than what was observed by the OP. And wagyu is borderline unicorn meat if it costs that much :laugh:

m-fine
06-12-2017, 10:41 PM
Then you would be dead wrong. I've tried all of the hyped meats, like Duroc pork, Wagyu beef, etc. and don't find QPR with any of them. And they are not 'magic' on the smokers. Lots of GCs out there not cooking these...

Where did you source wagyu that wasn't an angus crossbreed? It only needs to be 46% "pure" to be labeled wagyu in the US. What you see people cooking in competitions is an angus mix and for good reasons.

m-fine
06-12-2017, 10:50 PM
And wagyu is borderline unicorn meat if it costs that much :laugh:

A $20-30 per pound wagyu brisket is scrap meat they are selling for chump change. The best cuts can be $10 or more per ounce! The stuff is very different and IMHO worth trying if for no other reason to experience and learn about it, but even if funds were unlimited, I wouldn't want to eat it everyday.

Okie Sawbones
06-12-2017, 10:54 PM
Where did you source wagyu that wasn't an angus crossbreed? It only needs to be 46% "pure" to be labeled wagyu in the US. What you see people cooking in competitions is an angus mix and for good reasons.

I realize this. SRF.

Turkey
06-12-2017, 10:59 PM
It's a bit like this: there's a sword swallower with multiple Guiness World Records that lives near me. I knew that his records were legit because those records are verified under controlled conditions but I still had to see it with my own eyes to truly believe it. It was amazing and totally disgusting (I nearly lost my lunch on a few occasions).

I have cooked pretty high quality Wagyu briskets in Australia and they have been nowhere near probe tender at 160 (or even 170). I believe it's perhaps possible to be tender at 160 if a higher quality animal is used and a very long cook time. Unfortunately there's no convincing these guys:

http://i.imgur.com/hAY2R.jpg


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/d1/db/97/d1db97f641eec76b9659ec1acc2e8203.jpg



https://i0.wp.com/theverybesttop10.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Top-10-Suspicious-Cats-That-Know-What-You-Are-Up-To-5.jpg?resize=510%2C527

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-12-2017, 11:14 PM
A $20-30 per pound wagyu brisket is scrap meat they are selling for chump change. The best cuts can be $10 or more per ounce! The stuff is very different and IMHO worth trying if for no other reason to experience and learn about it, but even if funds were unlimited, I wouldn't want to eat it everyday.

When I ate the Nobu Restaurant A5 wagyu beef sourced from Japan, it was $50 an ounce, that's right an astounding $800 a pound. Word has it that chef Nobu flies the meat by courier in the passenger cabin across the pacific. I ordered it just to try it. It really was like sliced butter--gotta win the Powerball to make this my everyday life!

m-fine
06-12-2017, 11:35 PM
I realize this. SRF.

SRF is one of the prime offenders for selling crossbreeds as wagyu. It doesn't even look like real wagyu from 10 feet away. I am not saying it is a bad product as it is probably a better product for they way their customers are cooking it, but IMHO they should not be allowed to call it wagyu or "American Kobe beef" because it is about as close to Kobe beef as Kentucky bourbon is to highland Scotch.

We don't know what this mystery brisket really was, or how long it was cooked before the OP showed up, but I can say with an extreme level of confidence that it is possible for the OP to have eaten a tender piece of brisket that was finished at an IT of 160 in less than 24 hours and without Sous Vide. Is some people reading this don't want to believe that, that is their choice, for others who want to try something different, the info you need to try it is in this thread.

QDoc
06-13-2017, 08:42 AM
That makes all the difference! I've eaten at Japanese places where they serve paper thin slices of the wagyu and it truly is like butter. I was about to say I've never witnessed tender choice or prime briskets being tender in 160s

Thin sliced pork and Beef was what I grew up eating. It was not cooked to standards we know today. At home I still cook it so it can be thinly sliced (shaved) and personally like it better that way. It's a little more chewy but I have good teeth.
:-D One of my favorite Brisket sandwiches is actually thinly sliced corned beef served with horseradich sauce at Oaklawn park.

toymaster
06-13-2017, 02:38 PM
When I ate the Nobu Restaurant A5 wagyu beef sourced from Japan, it was $50 an ounce, that's right an astounding $800 a pound. Word has it that chef Nobu flies the meat by courier in the passenger cabin across the pacific. I ordered it just to try it. It really was like sliced butter--gotta win the Powerball to make this my everyday life!

Ditto. I've had A5 Kobe when I was stationed in Japan. They put a piece of the fat in your hand and it melts at body temperature :shocked:. They give you a thin slice of it raw. I don't think this beef was EVER tough!

cricky101
06-13-2017, 04:45 PM
I am willing to bet you have exactly zero experience with smoking pure Wagyu briskets over those 40 years, especially since they have not been available in the US for more than 5 years and nearly impossible to find at retail until more recently.

All the replys saying no way, recalibrate thermometer, unicorn veal etc. are simply incorrect. There are multiple ways a brisket can be tender without getting to 200 degrees. Just because something is beyond your experience does not mean it is not possible, explained by science, or understood by others. You could try and learn something, or keep insisting the OP was wrong or missing something because what he experienced is not something you have experienced yourself.

Until you can prove that the OPs brisket was "pure Wagyu" (highly unlikely), your comments have absolutely nothing to do with this thread and your replys are "simply incorrect."

Sure, an extremely specialized and rare type of meat can be cooked differently with good results. So what?

Nuco59
06-13-2017, 05:39 PM
Occam's razor would suggest it was "not a superduper cut of some quasi legendary, ultra $$$, bovine cooked with exacting scientific temperature control"

I'm betting choice or prime - and a crappy thermo.

The report was it was tender and flavorful- guys- is this not the important thing?

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-13-2017, 10:28 PM
Occam's razor would suggest it was "not a superduper cut of some quasi legendary, ultra $$$, bovine cooked with exacting scientific temperature control"

I'm betting choice or prime - and a crappy thermo.

The report was it was tender and flavorful- guys- is this not the important thing?

Here, here!! I would love to join the quality assurance team on all these brisket venues. Your guys standards are so high that I'd still think the bad stuff is half way edible. Sign me up with some sides and I'll do some investigation

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-13-2017, 10:36 PM
Ditto. I've had A5 Kobe when I was stationed in Japan. They put a piece of the fat in your hand and it melts at body temperature :shocked:. They give you a thin slice of it raw. I don't think this beef was EVER tough!

Thanks toymaster!

My Navy service helped me see Japan and I consider myself fortunate to have seen the country. It was only years later post discharge when stateside, older, and with more lucre that I could order up that Nobu A5 Kobe slice of heaven. It was one hell of a tasty way to burn a Ulysses S Grant!!

jasonjax
06-13-2017, 11:11 PM
Until you can prove that the OPs brisket was "pure Wagyu" (highly unlikely), your comments have absolutely nothing to do with this thread and your replys are "simply incorrect."

Sure, an extremely specialized and rare type of meat can be cooked differently with good results. So what?

...And until you can't prove it, your comments have absolutely nothing to do with this thread and your replies (I care about spelling mostly) are "simply incorrect."

Your reply serves about as much purpose as this one near as I can tell. Very little. You know what they say about when you assume something. It makes an ass of u and me.

m-fine
06-14-2017, 07:55 AM
The point is that there are multiple possibilities for how a brisket can be tender at 160 degrees. Why several posters can't accept that and cling to denial is beyond me. Maybe the thermometer was broken, maybe the OP doesn't know what tender means, maybe it was a unicorn.

How about the possibility that your past experiences don't cover every permutation, that your knowledge of food science and all things culinary is not complete, and that maybe just maybe someone somewhere managed to cook a piece of meat that was truly tender and really and truly only at 160 degrees when it came off the smoker? Nah, that can't possibly be it, the thermometer had to have been broken.

NickTheGreat
06-14-2017, 09:17 AM
I've pulled pastrami/corned beef briskets off at 160 or 170 before. Since I was slicing thin anyways.

It didn't look like the picture. But it wasn't like shoe leather either. For 4 hours at that temp, I could almost see it.

Art A
06-14-2017, 12:12 PM
I'm of the mind set that when it comes to brisket, "It's done when it"s done". I've just never had one "done" a 160. When it probes like butter...it's done. They all cook different and using internal temps as a reference/guide....mine are usually done between 195-202.
Just my 2 cents.

Jason TQ
06-14-2017, 04:20 PM
Gonna jam on this one this weekend. Not sure how fancy or pure unicorn it is, but we'll see when it's done :-D

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/2016-2/20170614_161410_zps9uuvaqi2.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/fnbish69/media/2016-2/20170614_161410_zps9uuvaqi2.jpg.html)

m-fine
06-14-2017, 04:54 PM
Are you planning to rub it with toe cheese? :grin:

Jason TQ
06-14-2017, 05:01 PM
Are you planning to rub it with toe cheese? :grin:

Let's not ask rhetorical questions :becky:

Demosthenes9
06-15-2017, 01:11 AM
Thinking more about this, I believe it's conventional wisdom that:

1.) the lower the cooking temp, the lower the finish temp will be, and
2.) Prime packers have a lower finish temp than choice or select (cooked at the same temp), to the point where you need to start checking them at 180ish because they might just be done at 185 and,
3.)American Wagyu, Kobe, or whatever it was, while not "real" Wagyu or Kobe, still has a ridiculous amount of marbling, even more so than Prime.

Putting the three of those together, along with what M-Fine discussed, it's not beyond reason to say that what OP related is exactly what occurred.

jasonjax
06-15-2017, 06:52 AM
Thinking more about this, I believe it's conventional wisdom that:

1.) the lower the cooking temp, the lower the finish temp will be, and
2.) Prime packers have a lower finish temp than choice or select (cooked at the same temp), to the point where you need to start checking them at 180ish because they might just be done at 185 and,
3.)American Wagyu, Kobe, or whatever it was, while not "real" Wagyu or Kobe, still has a ridiculous amount of marbling, even more so than Prime.

Putting the three of those together, along with what M-Fine discussed, it's not beyond reason to say that what OP related is exactly what occurred.

Exactly. We get so rooted in this is how it is and that's all there is to it that we sometimes become close minded about things.

Kind of reminds me about the cook a tri-tip like a brisket thread that had a lot of folks eating crow at the end of it.

McSpazatron
06-15-2017, 07:39 PM
When I ate the Nobu Restaurant A5 wagyu beef sourced from Japan, it was $50 an ounce, that's right an astounding $800 a pound. Word has it that chef Nobu flies the meat by courier in the passenger cabin across the pacific. I ordered it just to try it. It really was like sliced butter--gotta win the Powerball to make this my everyday life!

So is that the actual honest to goodness Kobe beef? I so want to try that stuff. Those cows are treated better than the ranchers. Well at least until dinner time. I saw a show a while back on raising Kobe beef. They get massages, beer, hoof rubs...

From what I understand, Kobe beef is waygu breed that is raised in a very specific manner, in a very specific place in Japan. That raising is what makes it truly special.

McSpazatron
06-15-2017, 07:50 PM
Gonna jam on this one this weekend. Not sure how fancy or pure unicorn it is, but we'll see when it's done :-D

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j395/fnbish69/2016-2/20170614_161410_zps9uuvaqi2.jpg (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/fnbish69/media/2016-2/20170614_161410_zps9uuvaqi2.jpg.html)

Ooooooo. That looks nice. Looking forward to the thread on that one. I would say that qualifies as unicorn.

McSpazatron
06-15-2017, 07:57 PM
A $20-30 per pound wagyu brisket is scrap meat they are selling for chump change. The best cuts can be $10 or more per ounce! The stuff is very different and IMHO worth trying if for no other reason to experience and learn about it, but even if funds were unlimited, I wouldn't want to eat it everyday.

I would love to try wagyu brisket. Although I would have to have somebody else cook it for me. Id be terrified of wrecking it. After a good run of cooking briskets, I got my a** handed to me on the last pair of costco primes I made last weekend. Id have a stroke if I wrecked a wagyu.

Notorious Q.U.E.
06-15-2017, 08:56 PM
So is that the actual honest to goodness Kobe beef? I so want to try that stuff. Those cows are treated better than the ranchers. Well at least until dinner time. I saw a show a while back on raising Kobe beef. They get massages, beer, hoof rubs...

From what I understand, Kobe beef is waygu breed that is raised in a very specific manner, in a very specific place in Japan. That raising is what makes it truly special.

Nobu has a reputation to uphold so he lists it as A5 wagyu but stops short of saying Kobe. It's kind of like true champagne is from a specific region of France while most of what I have on a special occasion is sparkling white wine!

m-fine
06-15-2017, 09:25 PM
Much of the stuff about massages etc. is myth. Kobe beef is wagyu from a specific region, bred under VERY strict controls, raised and fed a certain way for a certain time and that passes very high levels for grading. The total volume is less than some individual ranches in the US produce so there simply isn't enough to be widespread. There are only 8 or 9 places in the US that ever get any true Kobe beef, all restaurants, no retail.

There are other regions in Japan that also raise wagyu to the same standards although they are not as famous in the west, their brands carry weight in Japan and the product is comparable quality. Just like there are multiple wine regions in France, except the cows are largely the same breed vs different grape varieties. That is likely what Nobu is bringing in. He doesn't call it Kobe because he is being honest, but if it is pure bred wagyu rated A5 from Japan, his customer base knows what kind of quality to expect. In addition to the crossbreeds, there are pure or nearly pure wagyu being bred and raised in Australia, the US and I think Canada. They are also very low volume, high quality, and expensive, and a bit harder to identify because of the lack of restrictions on marketing names in the US. You can find these retail if you are willing to pay for it.

m-fine
06-15-2017, 09:47 PM
I would love to try wagyu brisket. Although I would have to have somebody else cook it for me. Id be terrified of wrecking it. After a good run of cooking briskets, I got my a** handed to me on the last pair of costco primes I made last weekend. Id have a stroke if I wrecked a wagyu.

If you want to try wagyu, I would suggest the traditional thin sliced steak cuts first. They are a very special experience that is totally unlike American beef. Brisket is not its best cut, but if you do get one, keep in mind that the fat melts at very low temps and the muscle starts out more tender so you probably want to smoke at a lower temp and expect it to be done faster.

The one I did was in the Lang with a bunch of CAB briskets at 225-250 and was done in probably half the time. It was very soft and juicy, but honestly the flavor was not all that special and we all felt the black angus brisket was a better choice for BBQ. A cross like the SRF "wagyu" offers extra marbeling and somewhat softer fat from the wagyu along with angus flavor at a closer to reasonable price point so that is what I would recommend if you want to try smoking a "better than prime" brisket. Take the money you saved and try a few ounces of real Kobe or A5 wagyu at a top rate restaurant.

m-fine
06-15-2017, 09:50 PM
Here is where you can get Kobe beef in the US as of last year.

http://www.businessinsider.com/8-restaurants-that-serve-real-kobe-beef-2016-7

McSpazatron
06-15-2017, 10:36 PM
Here is where you can get Kobe beef in the US as of last year.

http://www.businessinsider.com/8-restaurants-that-serve-real-kobe-beef-2016-7

Thanks for the list. I just saw ssv3 post on the hibachi he bought. He had a spread of cuts that looked mighty fine. Does anyone know where one can buy somen of that, or is that mostly mail order?

Honestly, I want to just get me a little slice and eat it raw. :)

offshore_SoLA
06-16-2017, 05:02 AM
its actually an oxymoron that the "kobe" cattle are treated better. The swiss cheese looking beef actually comes from steers that are kept in a pen and can barely stand up..if they even can. People are paid to wipe the sh$t off of them..or they hang a bag under their anus so they don't sh%t on their own body.

m-fine
06-16-2017, 06:08 AM
Thanks for the list. I just saw ssv3 post on the hibachi he bought. He had a spread of cuts that looked mighty fine. Does anyone know where one can buy somen of that, or is that mostly mail order?

Honestly, I want to just get me a little slice and eat it raw. :)

You can ask him where he got it, but unless you are in NYC or LA or another major city, you will probably have to mail order or take a road trip.

Basically raw is how it is eaten. The outside gets seared for a little flavor and the inside is barely room temp. The fat melts at human body temperature so it really does literally melt in your mouth like a slice of butter.

Cook
06-16-2017, 07:58 AM
To date...there have been 40 Kobe briskets imported into the US so far in 2017.

That's 20 head of cattle.

ChrisBarb
06-16-2017, 08:33 AM
its actually an oxymoron that the "kobe" cattle are treated better. The swiss cheese looking beef actually comes from steers that are kept in a pen and can barely stand up..if they even can. People are paid to wipe the sh$t off of them..or they hang a bag under their anus so they don't sh%t on their own body.
That's disgraceful. Same reason I don't eat veal. I am surprised that is allowed. Or maybe the Japanese have looser moral values towards animals? And don't give me the "cultural differences" line. Some things are just wrong.