PDA

View Full Version : 2 Problems for new Yoder Wichita owner


bbqpitsmoker
03-11-2016, 07:41 AM
My first cook, have experienced 2 (perhaps related?) issues:

1. I have the heat management plate installed per the factory guidelines, and the temp on the left yoder thermometer was 250F. I put an accurate digital thermometer on the right hand side, and read 350F. 100F swing with the heat management plate fitted sounds way too high.

2. I really struggled to get the temp up. Even 2 hours later I was barely breaking 200F on the left side of the grill, and this was with starting off with red hot charcoal (5 pieces of lump each around as big as an orange), and then adding dry wood splits. Event stood there for 10 mins at a time with a Looftlighter fanning the fire. I noticed that every time I shut the top firebox lid, the fire would die down and smoulder. Both dampers were fully open. 3 hours later I emptied a full 10 pound bag of charcoal into the firepit on top of the already red hot embers and ignited it with the looftlighter so that all fuel was lit, and the temp on the left of the pit still didn't rise above 250F ?

PekingPorker
03-11-2016, 07:45 AM
Doesn't the firebox have a door on the side as well as the top? I would leave the side door mostly open, and control the fire with the door instead of the dampers. Give that fire tons of air. That's how I control my stick burner. Once the fire is roaring, I will close the door and leave it cracked maybe two inches with the dampers always in the same place, about 75% open. I never fully close the door.

SmittyJonz
03-11-2016, 07:59 AM
Are you burning split firewood or chunks - how big are your pieces of wood ?

SmittyJonz
03-11-2016, 08:00 AM
Can you post pics of the heat management plaTe?

SmittyJonz
03-11-2016, 08:07 AM
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209208

SmittyJonz
03-11-2016, 08:10 AM
http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u645/bobjones79/AD591AC0-BBDA-46D2-9EE2-029D12BA391C_zpsl1pt7oc4.jpg~original (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/bobjones79/media/AD591AC0-BBDA-46D2-9EE2-029D12BA391C_zpsl1pt7oc4.jpg.html)

kenthanson
03-11-2016, 08:22 AM
Doesn't the firebox have a door on the side as well as the top? I would leave the side door mostly open, and control the fire with the door instead of the dampers. Give that fire tons of air. That's how I control my stick burner. Once the fire is roaring, I will close the door and leave it cracked maybe two inches with the dampers always in the same place, about 75% open. I never fully close the door.


This. i has the same issues with a custom rig I was using and was battling it and then read Aaron franklins book on bbq and he says this is what he does, tried it the next cook and rocked 275 solid for 7 hours.

bbqpitsmoker
03-17-2016, 08:23 AM
I believe that my issue with the big temp swing was related to building the fire far to the left so that the heat of the fire was directly heating the heat management plate. I am now lighting the fire towards the damper side of the firebox, and temp across the cooking surface is within 20F when cooking low and slow (225) which I consider great. Just need to remember not to let the fire get built towards the heat management plate.

However, the issue with not really getting the temps up high remains. For example, I put in 2 chimneys full of coal, as well as 2 logs burning fiercely, and the max temp I have ever seen on the left of the cooker (non firebox side) is 280F. Does this seem right? For those that cook hot and fast (ie 350F) on a similar pit, can you describe how much fuel you burn at one time to reach that temp? Anyone hit a similar issue?

My damper settings are : chimney 100% open, firebox damper 100% open, firebox door open 3 inches. I am burning seasoned logs that would be around 4 inches across in size

Sopchoppy
03-17-2016, 08:39 AM
Controlling heat with the fire door rather than dampers works best for me. I think playing with too many things makes it harder to keep the heat steady.

Durangutan
03-17-2016, 09:59 AM
I believe that my issue with the big temp swing was related to building the fire far to the left so that the heat of the fire was directly heating the heat management plate. I am now lighting the fire towards the damper side of the firebox, and temp across the cooking surface is within 20F when cooking low and slow (225) which I consider great. Just need to remember not to let the fire get built towards the heat management plate.

However, the issue with not really getting the temps up high remains. For example, I put in 2 chimneys full of coal, as well as 2 logs burning fiercely, and the max temp I have ever seen on the left of the cooker (non firebox side) is 280F. Does this seem right? For those that cook hot and fast (ie 350F) on a similar pit, can you describe how much fuel you burn at one time to reach that temp? Anyone hit a similar issue?

My damper settings are : chimney 100% open, firebox damper 100% open, firebox door open 3 inches. I am burning seasoned logs that would be around 4 inches across in size

Something else you might try is using smaller splits around 2-3" in diameter. The smaller splits light quickly and burn hot if given sufficient air. I'm using a pit very similar to yours and have found that the smaller splits in conjunction with maintaining a healthy bed of coals works fairly well though you may have to tend your fire a bit more frequently (30-45 mins). I can usually close the firebox door after I've gotten a fresh set of splits burning clean and maintain temperature with the vent alone, and that is usually no more than half open depending on the temps I cook at -anywhere from 225-350. Hope that's helpful and best of luck!

tgstrang
03-17-2016, 10:19 AM
Did you get a reading on the left side from the same digital therm or just the Yoder analog thermometer? If you are basing the 100 degree difference on the cold side being measured by the yoder therm and the firebox side is being measured by the more accurate digital therm then you might not really have a 100 degree difference. Try measuring both sides with the digital therm and that should give you a better idea of the true temp difference. I've found that the analog therms can be off by as much as 50 degrees (even the good ones like Tel Tru and River Country). I had to recalibrate my River Ciuntry therms the other day because they were off about 35-45 degrees.

bbqpitsmoker
03-17-2016, 10:25 AM
Thanks, I have simultaneously tested left and right with the same cyberq wifi device. Just to clarify, my issue with left/right temp variance across the grate is resolved per my post above. My current issue is that I seem to be using too much fuel to maintain even low and slow cooks, and have never been able to get the cooker over 280F. Thanks for everyone's advice!

Bludawg
03-17-2016, 10:32 AM
Split your splits one time. Stuffing to much fuel in the firebox at once disrupts the air flow ( takes up volume for air need for the fire.) So your making up for it by propping the door open. The pit is designed to run on the dampers alone. Control the air, control the fire,control the pit temp. The coal bed is the where you get the heat the bigger the bed the hotter the pit.
This is a 300 deg fire
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160125_113108.jpg

Roguejim
03-17-2016, 10:50 AM
Split your splits one time. Stuffing to much fuel in the firebox at once disrupts the air flow ( takes up volume for air need for the fire.) So your making up for it by propping the door open. The pit is designed to run on the dampers alone. Control the air, control the fire,control the pit temp. The coal bed is the where you get the heat the bigger the bed the hotter the pit.
This is a 300 deg fire
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160125_113108.jpg

So Blu, you keep the firebox door closed, except to add splits?

DownHomeQue
03-17-2016, 10:58 AM
Yes you have to get the air to fuel ratio right.. if to much fuel you will need more air.. in absence of more air your fire will starve for air and not burn hot or completely. Objective is small, Hot, Fire Thin Blue smoke. achieving this in my 250 gallon smoker is accomplished by starting with 1/3 back of charcoal and 2 to 3 splits im up to 300 and adding a split every 45 minutes to 1 hour 15. stick burners need to be tended too.. not setting it and leaving here..

Bludawg
03-17-2016, 11:24 AM
So Blu, you keep the firebox door closed, except to add splits?

Open only to add wood.

Roguejim
03-17-2016, 12:03 PM
Open only to add wood.

Thanks. Looks like you had your dampers wide open for that 300F fire.

Free Mr. Tony
03-17-2016, 12:28 PM
I think the fire starving comments seem to be the ticket. Two full chimneys seems like a lot. On my Lang, I use a handful of lump. Probably 2 or 3 cups worth. Light that with a torch in one spot. Top that with one piece of kindling cut in half. Then the normal splits.

If I'm not careful, I'm way up over 300 before you know it.

Bludawg
03-17-2016, 12:53 PM
Thanks. Looks like you had your dampers wide open for that 300F fire. Sometimes they are and some times two are 1/2 open depending on the weather. Either way it's a split about every 40-50 min. to maintain the coal bed.

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160113_132238.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160113_133407.jpg
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160113_141042.jpg

slamkeys
01-01-2017, 01:09 AM
I ran across this thread a few months ago when I got my Loaded Wichita, and now I am familiar with its shortcomings. Check out this discussion which highlights the design flaws that prevent the Yoder Wichita from being a great smoker: http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1160&sid=b4e160a34c35373a5307074be371fb8d

The major issue I found was that the upper vent is too high on the firebox to prevent the heated air from flowing outward, which reduces the intake area enough to starve the fire of oxygen. I have been cooking with a makeshift door cover with a larger vent at the bottom of it, and I never have issues any more - I just throw a log on the fire and walk away until it's ready for another log.

If you notice here, my makeshift cover is screwed on, which means I have to cook "with the door closed" all the time - proof that Yoder has a design issue here.
http://i.imgur.com/TiHlSnm.jpg

gtsum
01-01-2017, 06:17 AM
Seems like the firebox door could use some re designing. Doesn't make sense To not have more of an opening under the fire grate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bbqpitsmoker
01-01-2017, 06:36 AM
With coal only you can run with the door closed, but with splits you need door open without modifying the smoker. Definitely needs a redesign for better drafting. With a couple of splits my standard setting is door vents open 100% with the door itself open 2 inches.

dwfisk
01-01-2017, 06:42 AM
I ran across this thread a few months ago when I got my Loaded Wichita, and now I am familiar with its shortcomings. Check out this discussion which highlights the design flaws that prevent the Yoder Wichita from being a great smoker: http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1160&sid=b4e160a34c35373a5307074be371fb8d

The major issue I found was that the upper vent is too high on the firebox to prevent the heated air from flowing outward, which reduces the intake area enough to starve the fire of oxygen. I have been cooking with a makeshift door cover with a larger vent at the bottom of it, and I never have issues any more - I just throw a log on the fire and walk away until it's ready for another log.

If you notice here, my makeshift cover is screwed on, which means I have to cook "with the door closed" all the time - proof that Yoder has a design issue here.
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w324/slamkeys/P1120029.jpg

Thank you for a well reasoned fix. I build a similar RF smoker/firebox and while I have not had this issue with mine, your vent location lower on the firebox door makes all the sense in the world. Might try it on my next build(s) :thumb:

SmittyJonz
01-01-2017, 11:24 AM
I prefer air intakes below fire grate. Slide intakes are great for this if door is wide enough......

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u645/bobjones79/3473AD27-B4AD-4A5A-A878-DC607D1F13BB_zpsbygchfdd.jpg~original (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/bobjones79/media/3473AD27-B4AD-4A5A-A878-DC607D1F13BB_zpsbygchfdd.jpg.html)

Big Swole
01-01-2017, 11:59 AM
Interesting post about vent in door location. Hmmm

pjtexas1
01-01-2017, 02:27 PM
My shirley intakes are above the grate level. Maybe the oversized intakes help.

137291

SmittyJonz
01-01-2017, 03:01 PM
Apparently the Yoders don't draft as well with the heat management Plate
the Shirley's draft very well

slamkeys
01-01-2017, 04:39 PM
My contention is that horizontal smokers are the most difficult to get flowing because you're trying to move air mostly sideways. A vertical smoker is simple because the heated air moves straight up and out the top.

When building a horizontal smoker, you still have to consider that flow is generated by rising heated air, which will flow up and towards the path of least resistance. With that in mind, it's easy to see how the Yoder's factory design seems to ignore the need for an upward path of the heated air.

Joe Phillips at Yoder told me his firebox is mounted 1" above the center line of the cooker body. I commented that I thought they had done this as a trade-off to offer a more comfortable height for cooking directly over the fire using the included cooking grid, but someone over there should have known better because the top of the firebox is now far above the low point of the cooking chamber. The heated air has to move downward in order to get past the heat management plate, and the upper vent is also higher than the low point of the heat management plate, which makes the vent the path of least resistance. This is not rocket science.

I've been doing the best I can to overcome the design flaws on the current Wichita with vent mods, but the only good fix would be moving the firebox down where it should be. I'm expecting to see Yoder make some changes based on the negative feedback they've been getting, but we'll see.

146093


Looking into the cooker from here it's painfully obvious why it has flow issues: the heated air literally has to fight past a wall of steel blocking it from going into the cooker, whereas the upper vent hole offers an easy path out of the firebox, which is not good.
146094

slamkeys
01-01-2017, 04:47 PM
With coal only you can run with the door closed, but with splits you need door open without modifying the smoker. Definitely needs a redesign for better drafting. With a couple of splits my standard setting is door vents open 100% with the door itself open 2 inches.
I agree with this. I've used the charcoal basket when I need to leave the cooker for a while, and it will burn with the factory vent closed half way for a solid 5 hours until all the coals are exhausted. Apparently coals need less oxygen to burn well. However, I like cooking with oak! That's why I bought a "stick burner"! :grin:

SmittyJonz
01-01-2017, 06:29 PM
The firebox sits too high.

marbque
01-01-2017, 09:00 PM
I have been able to keep my temps fairly even with our kingman. I have found that if I start a fire too big to fast I will spike on the right side. I have added the log starter and no longer use coal beds. Either way I can close the door on the cooker and have no issues. I have controlled the fire with the door open and it was just as easy.

McSpazatron
01-01-2017, 11:21 PM
Looking into the cooker from here it's painfully obvious why it has flow issues: the heated air literally has to fight past a wall of steel blocking it from going into the cooker, whereas the upper vent hole offers an easy path out of the firebox, which is not good.
http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w324/slamkeys/P1110776.jpg


Seems to be a spot on analysis that is hard to argue away! A smoker with ideal air flow should'nt really have heat spilling out of the intakes, at least I know it's possible. My Peoria has a very low intake, and flows only in one direction. The air near the intake stays at ambient temp around it, up until you get close enough to feel the heat from the metal a few inches away.

In the case you demonstrated, an open door would theoretically make things worse.

slamkeys
01-02-2017, 08:17 PM
There seems to be a direct correlation between the low point of the heat management plate and the heat build-up in the firebox. I think the original Yoder Wichita probably didn't have a heat management plate, and customers had less flow issues. We can certainly remove the plate, but I paid for it and I want to use it.

I did an analysis using a 6' level to see where the heat build-up would occur at the fire door. The test requires that the pit be perfectly level, because the unit is built with a downward slope towards the grease drain. When the pit is level, the lower shelf is level.

Here's the lower shelf, which is perfectly level:
146074

The test involves placing a 6' level under the heat management plate, and then leveling it to see where it intersects with the fire door. This should approximate where the heat build-up occurs. I did a quick mock-up using this Yoder side view, but I didn't want to rely on this rendering because I wasn't sure how accurate it is, so I tested this on my actual smoker.

146075


From this angle, you can see that I have the level wedged directly under the heat management plate, and held level using some props.
146076

The level is dead center:
146077

... and here is where it aligns with the fire door:
146078

Notice the smoke build-up line on the inside of the fire door. This completely agrees with this test, and demonstrates that the heat build-up is directly relational to the lowest entry point into the cooker. According to this test, at least half of the upper vent opening will always flow outward, which ruins any design calculations that were used to determine the size of the vent cut-outs.
146079

bbqpitsmoker
01-03-2017, 01:53 PM
Some really great analysis here!

pjtexas1
01-03-2017, 07:23 PM
Yoder should pay you for your time and effort. They will definitely benefit from your work.

dwfisk
01-03-2017, 07:41 PM
Yoder should pay you for your time and effort. They will definitely benefit from your work.

Absolutely agree, as a custom builder I can confirm there is some really good info here!

Richard_
01-03-2017, 09:09 PM
Hmm maybe this is why I struggle with my Brinkmann Cimaron , I'm going to try blocking the upper intake

McSpazatron
01-03-2017, 11:00 PM
Slamkeys: how is the heat management plate mounted in the cooker? Im wondering if it is possible to somehow prop the low end of the plate up a few inches higher. In order to try and get it to where the far end is level to, or even higher than the plate at the firebox end. That might be an easy way to help eliminate (or reduce) the heat spill at the intakes.

Barring that, it looks like the firebox end plate that you made (the stainless looking one with the single sliding intake) is only a little more intake area than half of the original butterfly intake on the original door. If your arrangement worked well, then it proves that the top part of the original butterfly is redundant (even assuming it were working as an intake, not as a heat dump). How about cutting the butterfly in half at the center, weld on the top half to the door, and rig up the bottom part to slide, using only that as your intake. It's a little bit of work that might pay off if you have access to the tools.

Here's a somewhat random thought. It seems to me that many smokers are "over-intaked". This is probably somewhat oversimplistic, but on the face of things I would think that the intake would not benefit from being much bigger than the size of the exhaust diameter. And because almost all fireboxes are going to leak to some degree, thats an additional source of intake air for the fire (once a draw has been established). I know that many recommend running huge amounts of air through wood fires, but Ive had bad experience with that, because at a certain point when fire is raging and hot enough, it stops being a clean smokeless fire, and instead starts to put out black soot. The wood fire smells different too (Ive read some here it smells perfumey, i thought plasticky or like burning resin).

All that being said, im sure there could be some smoker designs that would benefit from running with an open door, but it would have to be designed to run that way from the beginning (small door relative to size of cooker, firebox and throat sufficiently below cook chamber...also the door would have to be a door cut into the end cap, and not completely open the entire end of the firebox, because that would theoretically dump out half the heat coming from the fire).

slamkeys
01-03-2017, 11:47 PM
I've done some intake area math in this related thread: Just Bought a Yoder Loaded Wichita (http://texasbbqforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=27120)

SmittyJonz
01-04-2017, 12:10 AM
Cut the firebox off and weld it back on 2-3 inches lower and block off lower portion of the FB to cook chamber hole. Take pics along the way and post them.......

McSpazatron
01-04-2017, 01:07 AM
I've done some intake area math in this related thread: Just Bought a Yoder Loaded Wichita (http://texasbbqforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=27120)

Haha, just went through it...awesome thread. Good to see that most did not take your observations as someone just complaining. Looking at your other pictures of the outside of the firebox door, i now see that the intake size is much smaller than I thought it was, so yeah just using the bottom one might not give enough air.

What is the maximum temp you can get using your cookie sheet intake? If it were for me, Id like to have enough flow to be able to get to 375-400 in the chamber. Not for cooking so much as for having the option to sterilize thoroughly, and just to know you had some leeway to increase temps when necessary. I've been visited by mold...that is why I now appreciate the ability to produce high temps.

Big Swole
01-07-2017, 11:20 AM
After reading this thread and the one posted above on the other Forum, all I can say is Wow. It must be nice to be smarter than everyone at the Yoder company! lol

What is a shame is that I bet Yoder will NOT listen, read, and learn here. I bet they won't change anything, which will be a shame for future customers.

When I first started looking at smokers in the very beginning, I learned about Yoder and almost ordered a Wichita....Glad I didn't now!! But I am glad I read this and learned a bit of info. I think my Old Country Brazos may have a similar issue and I'll have to look into it. I've noticed smoke coming back out the door when open, draft issues, and the fire not burning clean enough with just the door vents open....Of course I'm still using the crappy fire grate that comes with it...I need to order a quality fire grate like you have.

funstuie
01-07-2017, 04:03 PM
I got a Yoder Wichita last year and it was my first proper stick smoker and it took a while to get used to it.

My way of working it - a chimney full of charcoal in the firebox, get it up an hot. Put a couple of splits on and get them burning (this is at least 90 minutes to 2 hours before I actually put meat on cooker). Keep the cook chamber closed but have the vent and stack open. It will get hot (too hot), let the splits burn down to coal and then add some splits at the side to get going again. i then use the door to maintain temps. I find working this way if it gets too hot I can shut it down and get it lower quickly. If I need to up the temp I just open the door more. Also I preheat my splits on top of the firebox.

The first time I cooked on the yoder it was a nightmare. I spent all night nursing the fire as I could not maintain temp. Although I have never been able to get even heat across the cooker even with the heat plate. Nearest the fire is always around 50-75 higher than the other end.

I have experimented with using only charcoal for heat and splits for smoke and it works well but you still have to manage the fire as the temps will drop quickly once the charcoal gets low.

funstuie
01-07-2017, 04:17 PM
Just reading through the other thread linked by Slamkeys - I got my smoker in 2015 and I experienced many of the same issues but I thought it was just me so I muddled through. Reading through the issues he has had to work through now I understand that the yoder has issues from out the door.

It took me a while to work out a way to use this smoker and cook on it but it was hard work (as others are now showing as well).

This thing is so big (I had to take the gate and part of the fence down to get it into my yard) and I got a really good deal that I have not been bothered to try sell it. But I am contacting shirley fab about getting a patio model built. As I will have a year or so before I get one of theirs it gives me time to use the yoder and sell it on.

slamkeys
01-14-2017, 09:10 PM
I noticed a new rust stain forming below one of the axles inside the wheel.
146083


Looking closer, the welder did a lousy job connecting the welds on the inside of the legs too. Both of them have a visible hole where water is penetrating and rusting, and one of them just looks very amateurish and lumpy. Time for more rust treatment and sealant. This is really getting annoying. It's hard to believe this thing was welded in a controlled environment by a professional welder. The one weld is so bad I can't believe it passed the quality control inspection. This is hardly the quality you would expect after watching Yoder's video of an old craftsman taking pride in the fabrication of his hand-made Wichita.
146084
146085

SmittyJonz
01-14-2017, 09:16 PM
I think my Old Country Brazos may have a similar issue and I'll have to look into it. I've noticed smoke coming back out the door when open, draft issues, and the fire not burning clean enough with just the door vents open....Of course I'm still using the crappy fire grate that comes with it...I need to order a quality fire grate like you have.

Cut the center out with a grinder and bolt in expanded metal.

Big Swole
01-16-2017, 11:04 AM
Cut the center out with a grinder and bolt in expanded metal.

Yeah, I'll do something soon for sure. I also think my issue might be that my stack end is on a slope (further down that it should be). I'll raise / shem it up more level and see if it helps.

RW34
01-16-2017, 04:11 PM
I have the Yoder Cheyenne which is smaller than the Witchita. I have the same exact problems as noted here. I've had the Cheyenne for a few years now. In the beginning I thought my fire management was the issue. Over time I learned it was not. I have to leave the firebox door wide open in order to maintain a hot clean fire. If I close the door the fire immediately dies out and I'm left with a smoldering stick. Frustrating isn't the word to describe cooking on this thing. If the wind is over 5mph forget it. Wind goes straight down the stack, into the cook chamber, and out the firebox. I will be selling this pit late spring because I ordered a Shirley and have a tentative build date month of June.

slamkeys
01-20-2017, 07:48 PM
Did anyone else buy the propane log lighter from Yoder? I ended up getting one since the mounting hole was already on the firebox, but I haven't really had much of a need for it. It does come in handy when I run out of charcoal though.

The reason I bring it up is because the regulator they give you is really cheap and doesn't work well at all. When I use it I can never tell where the knob needs to be and I have had some close calls where I tried to light the gas and it surged, causing a massive flare up. Then, even after you get it lit the flames go up and down over time like the regulator just isn't capable of holding a steady pressure.

Mine looks exactly like this one shown by T-Roy Cooks in his fire management video:

http://i.imgur.com/M1FkWfc.jpg

I was reminded of this cheap regulator the other day when I was watching a T-Roy Q&A video, and he mentioned it while talking about his Loaded Wichita:

T-Roy Cooks (Yoder propane log lighter): "I have the log lighter ... but I need to change the valve on that thing, because just barely cracking it - it's almost like I've got to stick a fire starter (that's lit) on the burner and then turn the gas on when I'm not close to it, because if I try to start it with a lighter where my hand is in there I'm liable to get the hair singed off me. When it lights it's like [a large flare up] - it's going all out just barely cracked on that valve, so if you'all get one be careful with it."

I agree - that's exactly my experience. I'm going to see if there's a good propane regulator available in the area so I can swap that piece of junk out. I'm amazed nobody has been injured yet (at least that I know of). :flame:

bbqpitsmoker
01-21-2017, 06:28 AM
I finally got around to trying a fix for the airflow problems in the Yoder Wichita that stop you getting a nice clean smoke with the firebox door closed and using wood logs. My idea was to keep the firebox door closed, have the damper fully open, and block the upper damper hole so that the hot air and smoke doesn't flow out the pit backwards which I have found it to do usually.

What I found was:

* It made the pit far more efficient in wood useage to maintain a given temp, and it REALLY sat on that target temp.
* Was far slower to reach the target temp
* Didn't see any evidence of smoke leakage from the lower damper hole, whereas usually smoke is regularly pouring out of the top damper hole.
* The smoke quality was quite good when the fire reduced to coals, but each time a new split was added the extra airflow requirements to feed the fire could not be met by the lower damper hole alone (ie half the recommended air intake size), and each time a split was added the smoke turned really billowy and white, and was unsuitable for cooking with.

Seems like one of Slamkeys approaches where the top damper hole is eliminated in favor of a larger single hole as low down on the door face as possible (20" area?) would be required to make the pit achieve thin blue smoke even with new splits added and the door closed. The issue with this however is a larger air intake would need some kind of mesh cover or grill to prevent burning coals and logs falling through and starting unintentional fires.....

Now starting to weigh up whether I can stomach cutting into the factory door (these things cost $5,000 in Australia so it would kinda hurt to cut it.....)

Apparently the Yoder factory is currently looking into the complaints that people have been reporting with the airflow on this pit so will see what comes of that as well. In a perfect world there would be some factory approved + supplied modification that current owners can make to get the thing flowing properly.

slamkeys
01-23-2017, 12:07 PM
The issue with this however is a larger air intake would need some kind of mesh cover or grill to prevent burning coals and logs falling through and starting unintentional fires.....

Funny - I was just talking to my wife about this subject over the weekend, because there is indeed the possibility of embers rolling out of the vent with such a large opening.

I don't really worry about it with my setup because I mounted my pit over a thick bed of landscape rocks. However, it might be more of an issue if you had your pit on a wooden deck or something like that.

My conclusion was that even the large vent opening provides a narrow barrier at the bottom of the firebox door which would stop most objects from free-falling out of the firebox, as compared to leaving the factory door open, which most Wichita owners have accepted as normal operating procedure. An open door is definitely more dangerous than a door with a narrow barrier at the bottom.

Since I have been using my makeshift firebox cover I haven't had any issues with embers falling out. On my last cook, I noted how easy it has become to manage my fire - something I don't even fret over anymore. I just throw logs in the firebox and go back to whatever else I was doing. I keep a Maverick thermometer in the house so I can monitor when the pit temp starts to decrease, and then I throw another log in and walk away. Easy as it gets.

Here is my lighting sequence. I used a small stack of splits with the log lighter to ignite the fire:
146086

Once lit, I close the lid and I'm done. No coals, no fanning, nothing. I just wait for the pit to reach 225 degrees. Here you can see the logs burning cleanly with the lid closed, and zero coals - the fire has only been going for about 10 minutes with the log lighter before turning off the gas and shutting the lid. The debris on the bottom of the firebox is the wadded up newspaper I used to ignite the log lighter. Note: I always remove my log lighter and store it after I light the fire, which is why it is not visible in this photo.
146087

Here is the smoke from the smokestack right after closing the lid for the first time. No billowing smoke, and good pressure because the firebox is not venting out the back side. You can kind of see the gauge is sitting at around 100 degrees in this shot - just getting warmed up.
146088

Doc_Holliday
01-23-2017, 02:55 PM
WOW...what an interesting thread. I have to assume that the folks at Yoder are thinking that if they redesign this they will have to retrofit a number of units they have already sold with what is obviously a design flaw. For them to admit it was a flaw would cost them, and not knowing what their cash situation is like they may not be willing (or able) to absorb the burden for fixing this. Doesn't make it right, but it's certainly something I would think they are considering as they move forward.

Either way...when I joined this forum in the welcome thread I mentioned i was hoping to get a Yoder in the spring - I take that back.

many Thanks Slamkeys.

Big Swole
01-23-2017, 03:56 PM
WOW...



Screen Name WINNNER!!!!! ^^^^^^

slamkeys
01-25-2017, 07:53 PM
I have to assume that the folks at Yoder are thinking that if they redesign this they will have to retrofit a number of units they have already sold with what is obviously a design flaw.
I didn't really think Yoder would offer any kind of recall because those are usually only mandated for serious safety issues. If somebody had been killed by their faulty design, then yes.

Also, I realized early on that "warranty" issues would be limited to things they can ship in the mail (unless you live near their business) because it's far too expensive to transport these things back to them for any serious repair work. They basically told me that bad welds and this flow issue are "within tolerance" of their standards, so that's the end of it, and they are the final arbiters of the warranty.

After some long discussions about the flow issue, they did offer to build me a custom door, but I didn't even consider that because I'm sure I could have it done locally for a much cheaper cost (my brother-in-law is a welder).

Here's a direct quote from Joe Phillips to me:


"We appreciate the testing you have performed and will take this into consideration moving into the future. There is absolutely a mathematical formal [sic] between intake and exhaust that has proven to be very reliable over the years. This formal [sic] was developed over many years of testing and building product to specified customer needs. We are always willing to take advice and are committed to product improvement. This post has been heard and will be taken into consideration moving forward. We build hundreds of custom products each year that are too [sic] customer specification in cooking style and temperature ranges. There are various theories and mathematical possibilities that are out there, some are better than others. This subject has been debated and discussed for as long as people have been putting logs in a piece of pipe to cook. We think we have found the best compromise, as with anything there is always room for improvement.
We have offered to build you a new door or would be open to any other modification that you may suggest. We are here to help."

Note: His response followed my discussion on vent area calculations, and he meant to say 'formula' not 'formal' as noted in the quote.


He goes on to imply that any changes they make in the future will not be made hastily because they don't want to "cause another issue down the line," as quoted here:


"In final response to this topic. We have and always will pursue to build the best product we possibly can. We value customer feedback and continually evolve our product lines based on this type of communication. We are not interested in being right, in our business the customer is always right and we do everything we can to accommodate any and all issues or suggestions. This kind of commitment is rare in today's fast-paced world. We have made the commitment to evaluate this section of our product line and see if we can improve the overall experience. We are currently doing this. We have sold thousands of wood pits across the world and have done so with great success. Nobody ever suggested that our product is infallible nor are we going to provide affirmation of something that we haven't tested to determine the source of the complaint. The customer experience dictates that we need to have a look at the product and see what if anything can or should be done. If we have given the impression we are not listening that certainly isn't the case. These kind of changes can be complicated and we need to be sure that we aren't going cause another issue down the line.
Our product couldn't be such a success without our customers. We appreciate the business and will always work hard to make the best product possible."

Overall his responses were very calculated and protective of his company, which is understandable, but that doesn't leave us customers much hope for a remedy any time soon. I'll probably end up selling the Yoder and buying something better rather than waiting for a new Wichita design. I've seen Yoder's Facebook page and their videos and it's obvious they are wholly focused on pellet poopers right now - that's where they are making their mark. I'd love for them to prove me wrong though, and release a revamped design that completely shuts up the complainers (like me) so that's my challenge to them! :grin:

bbqpitsmoker
01-25-2017, 08:46 PM
[QUOTE=slamkeys;3726923]I didn't really think Yoder would offer any kind of recall because those are usually only mandated for serious safety issues. If somebody had been killed by their faulty design, then yes./QUOTE]

Which infortunately could be an outcome of a cooker that can only be used in someones backyard ie. in relatively close proximity to their house, as long as the firebox door is left open to permit a clean burning fire which could have the unintended consequence of burning coals falling through that same open firebox door and setting fire to something ...

I have personally come back to check on my cooker to see a burning log on the ground behind my smoker that had fallen out of the firebox which had necessarily been left open to prevent the smoker billowing white smoke. The more time I spend on this thread the more I think I need to sell this Wichita and move on to a different cooker.....

Randy3269
01-25-2017, 09:10 PM
Shirley Fabrication my friend. Never look back.

Melt In The Sun
02-17-2017, 10:35 AM
Well I decided to take the plunge. I haven't been around here for a while, but popped my head in and saw this thread (and slamkeys other threads) and decided to fix this same problem that I've had for a while.

For me, "learn your cooker" meant building a huge fire (note all the rust on my firebox) and put a concrete block under the feet at the stack end of the smoker to tilt the whole thing. This made it draft OK, but looked stupid and was a bit of a safety risk.

I'm having a friend make me a door like this, and will let y'all know how it works...
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1160&sid=b4e160a34c35373a5307074be371fb8d#p7571

slamkeys
07-05-2017, 09:14 PM
The people at Photobucket have lost their minds! They want $400 bucks per year to "allow" my photos to be linked to 3rd-party sites. That should be illegal. I guess I'll have to upload all my photos as attachments from now on - whatever.

I finally got some free time to work on my Wichita door mod and I got it completed. I'll have to do a cook this weekend to test it out.

I added a new latch while I was at it because I wanted to have cool-touch handles, which I believe should be standard on these expensive smokers.

SmoothBoarBBQ
07-06-2017, 08:01 AM
This is a great thread... my first stick burner was a Yoder Cheyenne and I had the exact same issue with having to leave the firebox door open to get a clean fire. As others have posted, every so often I would come back and have a wood log that had fallen onto my concrete patio. I just thought this was how stick burning was... an absolute chore and a nightmare to deal with... that was until I got my Chargrill Trailer from Johnson Smokers. This thing has an enormous firebox with 2 very large inlets on either side to allow for a good amount of airflow with the firebox door closed. Not trying to do a commercial here but just stating that it was such a huge difference in performance that it really made me realize how "wrong" the setup is with my Yoder.

I love my Yoder as it really is a beautiful piece of gear, but even with the heat management plate there is a massive temp differential across the cooking chamber. I was never able to use the 8" or so nearest the firebox as the flame itself was sucked into the cooking chamber, so I always placed a waterpan there. That really cuts this small cookers capacity down quite a bit, so I'm glad I finally moved onto something much bigger.

Anyways, great thread, and I love the idea of having a larger opening in the firebox door. Lots of people are very creative and it's good to see people making improvements even if Yoder is too stubborn to do so.

Qkooker
07-06-2017, 10:38 AM
I bought a used Cheyenne. I never owned a stick burner before and fought with these same issues as everyone else. One more issue I had was a lot of soot when using this rig. I had just about given up on the thing. I made two 3/8" tuning plates that I can move to help with the heat & temp variation. This helped, but I also added a shield plate at an angle off the fire box to help send the heat downward. Then I made a charcoal basket which keeps a longer fire. All these modifications have helped and now it works ok. I was in the process of welding a new larger diameter pipe for the chimney to fine tune this, until I ran across this great thread. I was unable to see all the pictures from photo bucket to help. I wish you could re-post pictures and diagrams. I can only imagine all the frustrated Yoder owners out there. Company should stop production on these pits yesterday and get these pits done right.

Big Swole
07-06-2017, 11:09 AM
The people at Photobucket have lost their minds! They want $400 bucks per year to "allow" my photos to be linked to 3rd-party sites. That should be illegal. I guess I'll have to upload all my photos as attachments from now on - whatever.




Testing your comment about PB.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad137/BigSwole1255/Cooking%20and%20Smoking/6CF20E60-7595-4737-A5BF-73A3F3CB6A18_zpsltewg3bg.jpg

Big Swole
07-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Seems to work like normal for me ^^^

IXL
07-06-2017, 11:19 AM
Swole, see the thread indicated towards the top of this page, under "notices" for information concerning PB and their new policies. Could be an eye opener for many.

slamkeys
07-13-2017, 05:17 PM
I posted a write-up over at the Yoder forum detailing my Wichita door mod, along with some back-story about why I ended up doing it in the first place:

http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1570

slamkeys
07-26-2017, 05:44 PM
Let me try a Photobucket test. Is this working? Maybe they re-swizzled the links so all the old ones stopped working.

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w324/slamkeys/P1110904.jpg

slamkeys
08-07-2017, 07:51 PM
I tried to post an honest review of the Yoder Loaded Wichita on Yoder's ATBBQ site, but they apparently rejected it. They did allow my review of the probe port, but my separate reviews of the smoker and log lighter are still in the "My Product Reviews" section of my user account page.

I'll expose them here for anyone interested in honest reviews from an actual customer, since ATBBQ won't show them:

Feedback for Loaded Wichita:
http://i.imgur.com/i4nx9Sp.gif
Feedback for Log Lighter:
http://i.imgur.com/MpGJWOE.gif

slamkeys
08-13-2017, 05:46 PM
I have always hated how Yoder turned the pipe seams towards the bottom on my Loaded Wichita. Do all companies do that? They interfere with cleaning, and I've thought about grinding them smooth, but I don't want to weaken the welds by removing so much material.

Loaded Wichita pipe seams turned to the bottom:
http://i.imgur.com/pPsdwTq.jpg


I'm constantly cleaning the ashes out of my firebox, and I curse this stupid weld every time I clean near it. I did a deep clean today before I oiled the firebox, and I had to get a grill brush out to clean the debris that gets caked into the weld. Also notice the ash rake Yoder provides is a kind of "universal" model that is pretty useless really. The curvature on the Yoder ash rake looks like it was made to fit the 16" Cheyenne, but they use it for all models as a kind of least common denominator. It also has the log lighter cutout which is only good for owners who use the log lighter. Other companies provide rakes that match the curvature of each smoker. Yoder's rake barely makes contact with the firebox on my 20" model.
http://i.imgur.com/bfqJkFH.jpg

Is it safe to grind and sand these welds smooth? I asked a question on the Yoder forum to see if they do this by design, and whether they could turn the seams to the back where they wouldn't interfere with regular cleaning. This is yet another poor design decision from a very young fabrication company that doesn't seem willing to learn from its mistakes.

IXL
08-13-2017, 07:40 PM
You do know that the pipe itself is not round, right? Any radius the jag is cut to will not be guaranteed to make full contact with the pipe. Yoder could have made the cooker from seamless cold-rolled tubing...for about a thousand dollars (at least) more.

I just rake out the bulk of the ash and then toss an old rag to the far side and use the jag to pull it, and what little additional ash remains seems to come right out. I never sweat it.

Have you considered just selling the Yoder, as your dislike for it seems to continually increase? I'm sure there are plenty of other cookers out there which you would enjoy.
Good luck.

Twisted T's Q
08-13-2017, 07:50 PM
Slamkeys do you oil the inside of the fire box and if so how often ? and how are you cleaning the ash out of the fire box ? I just usually clean my fire box with a small broom and dust pan but have not oiled the inside of the fire box

SmoothBoarBBQ
08-14-2017, 09:24 AM
Slamkeys,

IXL is probably right... you really should look into selling that Yoder and get you a cooker which won't irritate or frustrate the ever living hell out of you! haha I understand where you're coming from as my 1st offset smoker was a Yoder Cheyenne... and I just thought that's how cooking on an offset was supposed to be : horrible! I didn't realize how bad that Yoder was until I got my hands on my new offset (Johnson Smokers)! haha Now life is good with a much better smoker. For the price you paid for your Witchita you could get a better piece of gear from some pitbuilders in your general area.

Good luck with whatever you choose but it sounds like unloading that thing might make a world of difference for you. Good luck either way and I really loved your story of the issues you've had with your Yoder... really vindicated me for how I felt about my Cheyenne. Cheers!

yakdung
08-14-2017, 11:32 AM
Impressive troubleshooting and diagnosis. Continious Process Improvement (CPI) and listening to your customer base is paramount to future success. PDSA Cycle presented by Dr. Edwards Deming in the link below. If you drive a foreign car of high quality, this is the man responsible for its manufacture. Detroit automakers at the time dismissed his ideas. There is a very large furniture company in Houston that Dr. Deming is instrumental in that companies success and paramount growth. I would send an invoice billing as a consultant and see what happens. With 5K views on this thread, there is a lot of interest to see if corrective action takes place.

https://deming.org/management-system/pdsacycle

yakdung
08-14-2017, 11:54 AM
I have always hated how Yoder turned the pipe seams towards the bottom on my Loaded Wichita. Do all companies do that? They interfere with cleaning, and I've thought about grinding them smooth, but I don't want to weaken the welds by removing so much material.

Loaded Wichita pipe seams turned to the bottom:
http://i.imgur.com/pPsdwTq.jpg


I'm constantly cleaning the ashes out of my firebox, and I curse this stupid weld every time I clean near it. I did a deep clean today before I oiled the firebox, and I had to get a grill brush out to clean the debris that gets caked into the weld.
http://i.imgur.com/bfqJkFH.jpg


Is it safe to grind and sand these welds smooth? I asked a question on the Yoder forum to see if they do this by design, and whether they could turn the seams to the back where they wouldn't interfere with regular cleaning. This is yet another poor design decision from a very young fabrication company that doesn't seem willing to learn from its mistakes.

IF the weld joint was correctly beveled prior to laying down the MIG bead, I would say it could be ground flat. IF the pipe joint was butted together prior to welding and a MIG bead was simply laid on top, I would say no.
Good luck,

slamkeys
08-14-2017, 02:30 PM
Slamkeys do you oil the inside of the fire box and if so how often ? and how are you cleaning the ash out of the fire box ? I just usually clean my fire box with a small broom and dust pan but have not oiled the inside of the fire box
I normally shovel out the ashes at the end of my cooks (which is when that weld tends to frustrate me), followed by sweeping the remainder with a fireplace broom.

I've only oiled the inside of my firebox a few times since it was new, but this last time I opened up the firebox I found some water pooled at the low spot by the log lighter hole, and it had caused some minor rusting that I wanted to brush out and oil. If the log lighter hole created a smooth transition there the water might run out on its own, but there's kind of a lip there. I'm thinking about smoothing that area with a Dremel tool to see if the water will drain by itself.

slamkeys
08-14-2017, 02:43 PM
Slamkeys,

IXL is probably right... you really should look into selling that Yoder and get you a cooker which won't irritate or frustrate the ever living hell out of you!

LOL! I have definitely thought about that, but my Wichita is kind of like having a beautiful girlfriend with some irritating personality quirks. I complain a lot, but every time I look at her she puts me in the mood (for cooking). :eyebrows:

And, like a beautiful girlfriend, I'm willing to ignore some of her imperfections as long as she puts out (good food that is).

slamkeys
08-14-2017, 02:45 PM
IF the weld joint was correctly beveled prior to laying down the MIG bead, I would say it could be ground flat. IF the pipe joint was butted together prior to welding and a MIG bead was simply laid on top, I would say no.

OK, that definitely sounds like a big IF. I'm not touching that weld.

Twisted T's Q
08-14-2017, 03:45 PM
I normally shovel out the ashes at the end of my cooks (which is when that weld tends to frustrate me), followed by sweeping the remainder with a fireplace broom.

I've only oiled the inside of my firebox a few times since it was new, but this last time I opened up the firebox I found some water pooled at the low spot by the log lighter hole, and it had caused some minor rusting that I wanted to brush out and oil. If the log lighter hole created a smooth transition there the water might run out on its own, but there's kind of a lip there. I'm thinking about smoothing that area with a Dremel tool to see if the water will drain by itself.

thanks brother

I keep my smokers in a storage building that is somewhat a PITA when I want to cook but it keeps them out of the elements , my offset is a bayou classic but I have already made my mind up if and when I ever get another stick burner it will be a LSG offset horizontal ( I like the taste of the food to well that comes off the bayou ) so I figure I will just get a lot nicer version of what I have. I have been thinking about building a shed roof off of my building and keeping my smokers under that so I can cook where they set and mostly keep them out of the elements but I am afraid of smoker thieves but may gay ahead and do it, who knows lol ....

SmoothBoarBBQ
08-14-2017, 04:14 PM
LOL! I have definitely thought about that, but my Wichita is kind of like having a beautiful girlfriend with some irritating personality quirks. I complain a lot, but every time I look at her she puts me in the mood (for cooking). :eyebrows:

And, like a beautiful girlfriend, I'm willing to ignore some of her imperfections as long as she puts out (good food that is).

PLENTY of fish in the sea which are just as pretty (or much more pretty) and won't be a thorn in your side. haha

Cool, again, I really respect all that you've gone through with that cooker.

slamkeys
08-17-2017, 01:22 PM
Testing your comment about PB.

They're saying on the Photobucket Screw Job thread that if you've ever had any kind of paid account on PB you have until December 2018 to use your existing account, after which you'll need to upgrade to the $399.99 account or your photos will no longer work on 3rd party sites.

I never had a paid account, so I guess that's why my photos were broken on day one.

bbqpitsmoker
08-30-2017, 05:47 AM
Don't want to get too excited but there is an update on the Yoder blog that there is a new firebox air intake in test at Yoder that should finish next week. Is it possible this is the silver bullet many of us have been waiting for?

Big Swole
08-30-2017, 09:55 AM
They're saying on the Photobucket Screw Job thread that if you've ever had any kind of paid account on PB you have until December 2018 to use your existing account, after which you'll need to upgrade to the $399.99 account or your photos will no longer work on 3rd party sites.

I never had a paid account, so I guess that's why my photos were broken on day one.

Yeah, my account was paid (small amount) so that's a good thing for me I guess. I can start saving now for that ridiculous amount in 2018

zmhill
08-30-2017, 03:34 PM
Don't want to get too excited but there is an update on the Yoder blog that there is a new firebox air intake in test at Yoder that should finish next week. Is it possible this is the silver bullet many of us have been waiting for?Can you post a link? Newest thing I'm seeing on the Yoder blog is from about a year ago. I'm sure I'm missing something...

Thanks!
Zack

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

JokerBroker
08-30-2017, 03:53 PM
An employee by the name of Joe Phillips posted something on Facebook August 8th on this topic. In the group Team Yoder Smokers, he said, and I quote, "We have heard our user base and will be making a few tweaks in the next production run of cookers." I think Slamkeys played a large role in getting this design updated.

bbqpitsmoker
08-30-2017, 08:08 PM
The comment about the Yoder enhancement is down the bottom of this thread. Hopefully they are going to post more details about it and wheher other existing customers can buy it?


http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1598&sid=1a23e83109b0f7e4cd1b48139ce21ba8

slamkeys
08-30-2017, 11:01 PM
Joe Phillips is more than an employee. Here's a clip from an interview with Yoder owner Don Cary:

How did you start Yoder Smokers? We’re a manufacturer by trade. One of our other companies manufactures construction tools, equipment and more. My vice president, Joe Phillips, managed production and the custom shop for Oklahoma Joe’s Smokers Co. in the late ’90s. Then, there were smokers we built for family, friends and employees. Those were all offset wood smokers. We built our first grill in 2007 and began building for commercial sale in 2009.http://www.feastmagazine.com/shop/shop_kansas_city/article_457204be-8765-11e7-8a01-7303c12a04ff.html

SmoothBoarBBQ
08-31-2017, 07:31 AM
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1598&sid=1a23e83109b0f7e4cd1b48139ce21ba8

That's a very good post by OP and they are thoroughly explaining their constant problems with their Cheyenne. I had the same issues and the only way to cook on it was with the firebox door open. I wonder how Yoder is going to handle the "fix" for current Cheyenne / Wichita owners.

IXL
08-31-2017, 06:59 PM
I wonder what Yoder forum employee "Yoder_Herb" will have to say about the new FACTORY modifications....after having told one and all that any problems involving fire-and-a-Cheyenne are, and exclusively.....the operators fault. That, and one has to make sure to burn only extra-special kiln dried wood. That, and one has to (constantly) rotate the entire cooker so the air intake will face directly into the wind. It all speaks to credibility.

That said, I applaud Yoder for making improvements to this line of smokers. I hope it will now join the ranks of other great-functioning Yoder cookers!

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-01-2017, 07:31 AM
I wonder what Yoder forum employee "Yoder_Herb" will have to say about the new FACTORY modifications....after having told one and all that any problems involving fire-and-a-Cheyenne are, and exclusively.....the operators fault. That, and one has to make sure to burn only extra-special kiln dried wood. That, and one has to (constantly) rotate the entire cooker so the air intake will face directly into the wind. It all speaks to credibility.

That said, I applaud Yoder for making improvements to this line of smokers. I hope it will now join the ranks of other great-functioning Yoder cookers!

This is something I had to do CONSTANTLY with my Cheyenne and it was such a pain. I still suspect that even with a new damper the rotating of the entire pit will still be necessary.

bbqpitsmoker
09-01-2017, 07:54 AM
Check out the build process these pits go through!

https://youtu.be/VF1xZeC9u_U

slamkeys
09-01-2017, 11:05 AM
I remember watching that video when I first became interested in a Yoder. It gave me the impression that they were using the most high-tech equipment for building the offsets too, but when I called Yoder about ordering my offset they told me the offsets were all cut and fabricated by hand.

I almost bought a YS640, but the electrical components were a deal breaker for me because of frequent power outages and rainy weather around here. I see now that Yoder has been hyper-focused on the pellet cookers because that's where the real consumer demand is. The Yoder Facebook page is packed with posts from pellet cooker owners, and Don Cary acknowledges the YS640 as his top seller:

What’s your best-selling grill? Probably our most well-known grill has become the YS640 Pellet Grill. That grill is the right size, the right price and the right ease of use. It just gives you fantastic flavor.

Melt In The Sun
09-01-2017, 12:35 PM
Don't all offsets have issues if wind blows from the stack end to the firebox end? Intake insufficiency aside...that doesn't seem like a Yoder issue.

IXL
09-01-2017, 03:08 PM
Don't all offsets have issues if wind blows from the stack end to the firebox end? ...........

Nope.

slamkeys
09-01-2017, 03:37 PM
Don't all offsets have issues if wind blows from the stack end to the firebox end? Intake insufficiency aside...that doesn't seem like a Yoder issue.
My Wichita flowed backwards very easily when the fire door was open; even the slightest breeze stopped the flow dead in its tracks.

Now I get out my trusty wind deflector if the wind isn't cooperating:

https://i.imgur.com/FkokHBr.jpg

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-02-2017, 09:24 AM
Don't all offsets have issues if wind blows from the stack end to the firebox end? Intake insufficiency aside...that doesn't seem like a Yoder issue.

My Johnson Smoker works in any wind conditions and with the firebox door closed. I get a lot of wind shear out here due to living right near the ocean, and I had to constantly rotate my Cheyenne to keep the firebox end in the wind. Over the last 5 months I have never once needed to rotate my Johnson Smoker... so no, it's not an issue with every offset smoker.

Notorious Q.U.E.
09-02-2017, 01:06 PM
My Johnson Smoker works in any wind conditions and with the firebox door closed. I get a lot of wind shear out here due to living right near the ocean, and I had to constantly rotate my Cheyenne to keep the firebox end in the wind. Over the last 5 months I have never once needed to rotate my Johnson Smoker... so no, it's not an issue with every offset smoker.

Agree, my Lang and Shirley never needed repositioning.

slamkeys
09-11-2017, 02:05 PM
The Yoder folks posted yet another video containing a segment on how to manage your fire in a Yoder offset (interview begins at 13:23):
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8928#p8928

The video is mostly an advertisement about their manufacturing facility and sales volume ("we are successful, therefore right"), but it concludes with an interview between T-Roy Cooks and Joe Phillips, where Joe attempts (once again) to portray his smokers as thoughtfully designed, but then proceeds to explain their usage and behavior in a way that had me scratching my head, and apparently also had T-Roy questioning his own strategies. The whole top/down bottom/up discussion is debatable. Aaron Franklin suggests he gets a top/down cook because his smoke stacks are at grate level, and he doesn't incorporate any type of tuning plates to keep the heat on the bottom. That makes more sense to me.

It's interesting to hear Joe's opinions (which obviously weren't rehearsed), because he continued to push the idea that anyone having issues with their fire management just doesn't have enough knowledge or experience yet, despite the fact they are currently working on some kind of damper modification for the next production run of cookers.

Take aways:
1. Coal Base, Coal Base, Coal Base, Coal Base, like a broken record.
2. Don't use natural fire wood. Buy kiln-dried wood.
3. Joe's design chokes the fire intentionally, so there! It produces more smoke that way, get over it.

One thing that was interesting to me in the interview was the notion that the Wichita's heat management plate was somehow adjustable. T-Roy apparently keeps his an inch or so away from the ash deflector instead of underneath it, which is where Joe Phillips insisted it is supposed to be. I'd like to see Yoder implement an adjustable slider on the Wichita's heat management plate like they have on the Kingmans.

Here's a transcript of the interview portion of the video, for what it's worth:

T-Roy Cooks: Joe, I just wanted to ask this question if you don't mind. A lot of my viewers who have purchased Yoder offsets, they have asked me about that heat management plate. Mine is set up, and my preferred way to do it is to set it up is so that you've got 50 degree variance to 75 degree variance from end to end within the cooking chamber, but I've never tried to get my cooking chamber to be totally even across the board. How would you suggest that my fans do that because they ask me this all the time, and I just don't want to reconfigure mine. If they get a new offset from Yoder, how should they configure that heat management plate?

Joe Phillips: A couple of things. If you talk about completely even across the grate, that's really hard because you have an offset fire. So let's talk about getting it within an acceptable range, say 20 degrees. On the right hand side you are always going to be a little more radiant because that's where the fire is. The heat management plate then it's going to radiate a little heat, so what's going to happen in a Wichita for example with a heat management plate is on the right hand side you're going to have a little bit of a bottom cook, and as you move to the left it's going to be a top down cook. So you're going to cook just a little bit different from right to left.

As you talk about managing that temperature from left to right and top to bottom, you want to control your air intake and the outtake of your air. If you think right brain left brain, as you back the stack off, you're moving the air flow backwards. You're not allowing the heat to flow through the pit, so you're backing it up. If you think about the air intake on the firebox, the more open it is, the more efficient the fire, the more heat you're moving to the left hand side of the chamber. So you'll want to play a balancing act in between your intake damper and your stack. I typically, If I want to be pretty even in the pit, top to bottom and right to left, I'm going to run the damper about 1/2 shut, and the stack cap about 1/3 to 1/2 shut. That really slows that air down, and allows you to really efficiently burn that fire, so that way you're not seeing spikes in temperatures.

The other thing that's really important, cooking in an offset wood pit, the more food you put in it the more BTUs you're going to consume. The tighter that meat gets, the more you're going to force the heat to one end. So you want to allow it a little space. You're always going to cook, typically you're going to cook the hottest at the stack, so if you have a second shelf the upper left is going to tend to run 15 or 20 degrees hotter.

The beautiful thing about an offset wood pit is every piece of meat is a little different, so you've got one brisket that's going to finish in 10 hours, the next one's not going to finish until 11 1/2.

T-Roy Cooks: It happens to everybody, yeah.

Joe Phillips: Your wife puts cake in the oven, right? Sets it at 350 degrees and sets a timer. She's going to walk to that cake with a toothpick and check it; it's what's going to happen. Well cooking a piece of meat's kind of the same way. That oven's going to have variance in it. That's why you're checking. Well a wood pit's going to be the same way: you've got a fire that you're controlling so your ability to efficiently burn fire and provide it predictable fuel is really important.

We see a lot of guys who will go buy some wood to start with, and then they'll go to the neighbors and find an old tree that they're going to give to them, well that kiln-dried wood they bought, and that old tree laying on the ground aren't going to burn the same. They're going to be a little different. So the ability to manage that air flow through the pit - you can take any of our pits and make them do whatever you want.

A good base, you've gotta have a coal base, that's where the heat comes from. Maintain that coal base. If you lose it, then you begin to create separation from right to left, and always going to happen. Maintain your coal base, understand your pit and it's air flow, and then use the dampers. It's why we put them there. Play with that a little bit. You know, I don't ever run a damper more than about 1/3 shut on the stack, but at times I'll run my firebox damper almost all the way closed if I want to be 200 degrees.

T-Roy Cooks: See, I usually just run my stack all the way open and strictly adjust the heat within the pit by the intake on my firebox.

Joe Phillips: You can certainly do that.

T-Roy Cooks: I do get, I guess, less smoke flavor because there's more air flow, OK? So if I want more smoke flavor - slow that air down.

Joe Phillips: Slow that air flow down. Hold it in that chamber a little longer. Perfect example is a pellet grill. The reason a pellet grill smokes is because you're dropping raw fuel on a fire. It'll smoke for a little bit and it'll quit. So the ability to heat pellets predictably causes that smoke profile to happen. The exact same thing exists in a wood pit. The bigger the coal base, the hotter the coal base, the less smoke you're going to produce. The more air you're moving through it, the chemical process in the meat, in the cooking, in the salts, will cause the smoke flavor to happen. But if you want big, heavy smoke, slow the air down. Slow that cook down.

T-Roy Cooks: Let the smoke linger on the meat.

Joe Phillips: Let it linger there. if you want to cook a little hotter and faster, open it up, let things move through it. Um, It's kind of like driving a car and pulling up to a stop light, right? You ease into the throttle. Well running the wood pit's the exact same way: you want to ease into that throttle and set your cruise control where you want it. The cruise control is the entry point and the exit point.

T-Roy Cooks: Very interesting. And the heat management plate itself, should it be all the way against the inside wall of the fire box, or does it even matter how far it is?

Joe Phillips: Yeah, it does.

T-Roy Cooks: And also, it's got a lip on one end, should that lip be within the firebox?

Joe Phillips: The lip should curl under the ash seal. In every pit there's a rectangular piece of plate welded against the firebox wall, at about a 15 degree angle. That is there, as the air moves up it's going to want to rise. It's there to catch the ash, and stop the ash from getting on the top of your meat.

T-Roy Cooks: Oh, that's good - I didn't ever know that.

Joe Phillips: That's what it's there for. Heat should lip under it. That'll give you a predictable radiant spot of about 20 degrees hotter on the right, and then progressively going to get cooler to the left. So what I'm doing there is choking that air flow down. I'm causing it to starve itself just a little bit so it produces the smoke more.

I'll take my Kingman at times, and I'll slide my plate 3 or 4 inches away from there. I'll leave a little bit of gap. Let's say I've got chicken on the upper right hand side. I want that heat to come up and escape because I want a 350 degree zone on the upper right, while I want my brisket over here at 250.

So the versatility and the ability to play with that is really neat. The good thing about our pits, is it's capable of any of it.

T-Roy Cooks: I've got mine like 1 inch or so, maybe an inch and a half away from the wall, or away from that ash-catch thing you were talking about, and that's how I get my even 50 degree variance. But depending on what you're cooking and how you want to cook, you could move the heat management plate, adjust the intake and the outtake, you know the smokestack and the firebox, uh, learn your pit (points finger at you).

Joe Phillips: Learn your pit - very important (nods head).

T-Roy Cooks: Does it matter whether you're doing the Cheyenne, or the Kingman, or my Wichita, as far as what you just described? Is there very much variance? I would think not.

Joe Phillips: There's a little bit of variance just because as the tube gets bigger, the air's going to flow slightly slower. So in a Cheyenne you have a little tube, everything is sized for that body, it's proportioned intake to outtake. But naturally the air's going to move through it faster because there's less cubic volume to fill, so it's going to be quicker to react than say a Kingman. A Kingman's going to be a little slower to react than a Wichita.

Fundamentally they're all the same. The reaction time changes in between certain pits.

T-Roy Cooks: It's about the size of the volume of the air going ...

Joe Phillips: It's the cubic volume inside the body.

T-Roy Cooks: That really makes a lot of sense. I can't thank you enough for explaining that.


YouTube interview (13:23):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAkL3JSz-r4&feature=youtu.be&t=803

JokerBroker
09-11-2017, 03:11 PM
Joe's a lot smarter than I am but I don't agree with him on this. I agree that throttling the air supply works well on a charcoal-only fire but choking a wood fire to reduce its power produces creosote. The only way to make clean smoke from a wood fire is avoid throttling back on combustion air and control your pit temps by rationing the fuel.

JacksBBQ
09-11-2017, 03:25 PM
Having to use kiln dried wood seems kind of weird. That stuffs not cheap is it?

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-11-2017, 03:39 PM
Perhaps Joe Phillips likes his food to taste like carbon? I understand what he's saying about "slowing" things down and that makes sense to me, but certainly not at the expense of ash and creosote. And again with that garbage about using kiln-dried wood... kind of a joke to be honest.

And Wow Slamkeys, you are really on this! haha At this point I'm just going to end up selling my Cheyenne locally to get a bit of cash. I can't deal with the frustration of using it when I have my Johnson Smoker which works so well and is so easy to operate in comparison.

bbqpitsmoker
09-11-2017, 04:14 PM
What are the details of this new damper people are talking about?

JokerBroker
09-11-2017, 04:55 PM
Having to use kiln dried wood seems kind of weird. That stuffs not cheap is it?

Nope. It's actually quite expensive. I've seen it cost as much as $30 per cubic foot. Plus, it typically has about a 10% moisture content so you will go through a lot of it during a cook. (Seasoned wood is around 15%-20% moisture) The good news is it burns very cleanly and consistently.

Bigdog
09-12-2017, 05:52 PM
Perhaps Joe Phillips likes his food to taste like carbon? I understand what he's saying about "slowing" things down and that makes sense to me, but certainly not at the expense of ash and creosote. And again with that garbage about using kiln-dried wood... kind of a joke to be honest.

And Wow Slamkeys, you are really on this! haha At this point I'm just going to end up selling my Cheyenne locally to get a bit of cash. I can't deal with the frustration of using it when I have my Johnson Smoker which works so well and is so easy to operate in comparison.

No he doesn't. The trick is to have a small, hot, clean burning fire. This is achieved with fire management skills. It's really not that hard to do. You must reduce the intake but not so much that you choke it. Maintain a hot coal base and preheat your logs so they ignite immediately. Leave the exhaust wide open too. The result is a fire that delivers sweet blue smoke and no bitter taste.

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-13-2017, 08:15 AM
No he doesn't. The trick is to have a small, hot, clean burning fire. This is achieved with fire management skills. It's really not that hard to do. You must reduce the intake but not so much that you choke it. Maintain a hot coal base and preheat your logs so they ignite immediately. Leave the exhaust wide open too. The result is a fire that delivers sweet blue smoke and no bitter taste.

On a Cheyenne you CAN'T reduce the intake or it will snuff out the fire almost immediately. That's the issue with their smaller smokers and that's what this entire thread is about.

I'm fully on board with a good coal base and having nice, seasoned wood, but there's just no way to keep a super clean fire going on a Cheyenne unless the firebox door is open.

I also want to say that on my offset Johnson Smoker I don't need to pre-heat my logs or use kiln-dried wood to achieve a beautiful thin, blue smoke. So if the Yoder's have issues where you have to do things differently than other smokers then it's likely an issue with their design. Funny enough even Yoder recognizes their design has an issue and they're working on fixing it by modifying the firebox door... I wonder why they would do that if all you had to do was follow the steps you've listed.

Bigdog
09-13-2017, 11:47 AM
You bring up some good points here. This is an inherent problem with a small smoker. It is why they developed the Cimmarron, but my personal favorite is the Frontiersman. Bigger is better, to a point. But your best point is that each smoker is different. I totally agree. Sounds like you much prefer your Johnson Smoker so I agree that you should sell the Yoder and just use it.

slamkeys
09-13-2017, 12:25 PM
I noted several times on the Yoder forum that I was able to use the intake damper on my Wichita only when I was using the charcoal basket. Charcoal doesn't need as much air to burn cleanly, so I was able to keep my ~225F temperature by closing the factory door and setting the damper about 1/3 open. With that setting, the coals in the basket would actually produce an open flame, and snake through the basket (minion style) for about 5 hours until the coals were depleted. Yoder must be aware of this or they wouldn't harp on the need to have a large "coal base." The problem I encountered, and heard from other owners, was that I had no way to maintain a large coal base throughout the cook without leaving the door open all the time. As soon as I attempted to close the door my coal bed would disappear, and Yoder suggested I just keep making new coals with a charcoal chimney throughout the cook in order to maintain a large coal base.

If we were to use only coals on these smaller Yoder offsets then we could definitely use the intake damper (door closed) to control the temperatures. I've seen videos of old BBQ joints where they maintained a huge silo fire all day long and then used shovels to bring coals to the pits, which means their pits never actually see raw firewood because it is already reduced to embers when they shovel it in.

Likewise, I've seen videos where teams use barrel silos like this one to create the coals, and then scoop them into the cooker with a shovel:

https://i.imgur.com/wYw46Xk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mMWbJdE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Wdu5XoC.jpg

Regarding the Cheyenne, there aren't many videos out there, but there is one cook named Michael Doyle who has posted a handful of videos demonstrating his Yoder Cheyenne with the heat management plate installed. When I initially watched his series of videos, I noticed he had adopted the "Yoder Way" of managing his fire. He talks about pre-heating his splits on top of the firebox, turning his cooker into the wind, but most importantly he completely abandoned the idea of using the damper to control temperatures and always cooks with the door wide open. He mentions that his temperature gets a little hot this way, but he continues to rely on the size of his fire to control temperature instead of closing the door.

Preheat the wood, turn the cooker into the wind, leave door open:
https://i.imgur.com/OGfxo29.jpg

The temperature gets a little hot, but leaving the door open solves the smoldering issue and helps maintain the coal bed. However, smoke still pours out of this end when new wood is added for the same reasons it happens on the Wichita (notice the scorching above the door opening).
https://i.imgur.com/jzXIRfJ.jpg

By contrast, this photo of my modified Wichita door from this past weekend shows that it still doesn't have any scorching after 2 months of cooks because I am able to leave the door closed now, and I prefer to add wood from the top door because it's much easier on my back and knees. I originally used the side door to add wood, but it's a little too confined in there for me to work the fire easily.
https://i.imgur.com/wzT3SB3.jpg

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-13-2017, 12:50 PM
You bring up some good points here. This is an inherent problem with a small smoker. It is why they developed the Cimmarron, but my personal favorite is the Frontiersman. Bigger is better, to a point. But your best point is that each smoker is different. I totally agree. Sounds like you much prefer your Johnson Smoker so I agree that you should sell the Yoder and just use it.

This is kind of a poor attitude... "don't like it, use something else." The real issue is that there is a problem with the drafting system on the smaller Yoders and ever Yoder has acknowledged it. Also, there are tons of small smokers out there which function properly and don't have enormous drafting issues.

Anyways, I loved my Yoder once I figured out how to cook on it, but after I played around with some other stick-burners I was literally shocked at how difficult the Yoder is to operate in comparison. You mention the bigger cookers but this thread is mainly about the Wichita and I've also seen some Cheyenne owners having the same problem. No point in ignoring the actual problem and pretending it's all "user error," especially when the manufacturer acknowledges there's a problem.

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-13-2017, 12:57 PM
I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly. I'm just glad that this thread, and most likely the constant tenacity of Slamkeys, has finally forced Yoder to take another look and make some modifications to their current design.

IXL
09-13-2017, 02:35 PM
^^^^ Don't forget, in order to truly achieve smoking success with the Yoder, one must use kiln-dried wood ( lovingly cut by hand during winter, when the sap is down) in that burn barrel........

slamkeys
09-13-2017, 02:56 PM
I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly.
I've thought about doing it before, but I kept thinking, "I bought a stick burner, shouldn't it be burning the sticks by itself?" :crazy:

At any rate, another Loaded Wichita owner defended his purchase on the Yoder forum by declaring all the issues were his own fault (and I disagree), which had me wondering if he was an employee or something. Notice how he talks about a very large coal base being the key, and even admits he adds a fresh chimney of coals for every 3rd log - amazing:

When I first got my Wichita, it required a lot more supervision than it does now. I had to tinker with vents, open doors, etc. Honestly, even though I had to pay more attention to it, leave a door cracked, tinker with vents, etc. it never bothered me. As long as the pit temperature is where it needs to be, my feeling is, so what? It's still producing amazing food. Anyway, I can now blame those early experiences on me - the operator and I think there are two primary causes. First, although I had used other lower quality stick burners before, I needed to learn how to operate the Wichita most efficiently. Second, the wood I was using was not as well seasoned as it needed to be. I used to try to start the cooker on a single chimney of lump charcoal. While it worked, I don't think that was enough of a coal bed to run an efficient fire. I then bumped that up to a chimney and a half, and fire management became easier. Recently, I've been starting off with a full two chimneys of lump and that seems to have been a game changer. On top of that, the "seasoned" oak that I purchased when I got the cooker has had an additional 6 months to season. It ignites much more quickly and burns cleanly without any heavy white smoke.

Maybe it's the combination of starting with a larger coal bed and the seasoning of the wood, but I do not have to tinker with open doors and vents much at all. On occasion I do need to leave the firebox door cracked for a few minutes to ensure a new log ignites cleanly, but after that, the door remains closed and I get good clean smoke for a solid 45 minutes before I need to add more fuel. I use oak as my primary wood source to produce good heat. I'll add some flavoring wood to that, but I've found that it's important to use wood that produces good heat to keep that fire running cleanly. I will also add another chimney of lump with every third log or so in order to maintain a good coal base. I have not tinkered with the chimney vent at all. I leave it wide open. My firebox vent usually sits about 3/4 of the way open. My temps vary from side to side by about 75 degrees even with the heat management plate, but I like that. I almost always cook chicken along with ribs or pork butt and higher cooking temperature is ideal for the chicken.Notice how he says he had used "low quality" stick burners before, but after upgrading to the Yoder it was more difficult. That hardly seems like a good upgrade path if the dream cooker takes the fun out of the cook and makes you work twice as hard. I can't imagine firing up a fresh chimney of lump for every 3rd log. Lump ain't cheap! :mmph:

My Wichita Experience:
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1354&p=8551

BlueandGoldBBQ
09-13-2017, 03:07 PM
2 chimneys and another every third log! Holy crap! Do they recommend wrapping the kiln dried seasoned free range logs with $20 bills also?

DaveAlvarado
09-13-2017, 03:17 PM
I can't believe people have resorted to literally shoveling coals from a burn barrel to their Yoder offset smokers so they can actually make it function properly. I'm just glad that this thread, and most likely the constant tenacity of Slamkeys, has finally forced Yoder to take another look and make some modifications to their current design.

That's a totally legit BBQ style, but you can do it a whole lot cheaper with some cinder blocks, some expanded steel grating, and a sheet of corrugated roofing tin. You'll get more grate space too.

ssv3
09-13-2017, 03:21 PM
I think Yoder is onto something. Hybrid smoker?? :crazy:

2 chimneys and another every third log! Holy crap! Do they recommend wrapping the kiln dried seasoned free range logs with $20 bills also?

Bigdog
09-13-2017, 03:47 PM
This is kind of a poor attitude... "don't like it, use something else." The real issue is that there is a problem with the drafting system on the smaller Yoders and ever Yoder has acknowledged it. Also, there are tons of small smokers out there which function properly and don't have enormous drafting issues.

Anyways, I loved my Yoder once I figured out how to cook on it, but after I played around with some other stick-burners I was literally shocked at how difficult the Yoder is to operate in comparison. You mention the bigger cookers but this thread is mainly about the Wichita and I've also seen some Cheyenne owners having the same problem. No point in ignoring the actual problem and pretending it's all "user error," especially when the manufacturer acknowledges there's a problem.

I am sorry if you took it that way. It was not my intention. I was just saying that small barrel smokers are harder to maintain than larger ones. And as for selling your it, I was just agreeing with you on that point as you seemed to be happier cooking on you Johnson Smoker and mentioned selling the Yoder.

JokerBroker
09-13-2017, 04:19 PM
Another big problem with all of that charcoal is it adds nothing to the taste of the BBQ. In and of itself, charcoal is flavorless and produces BBQ that tastes like pot roast. It's the wood, before it is reduced to charcoal, that produces the aromatics which provide the best flavor to the meat.

Notorious Q.U.E.
09-13-2017, 07:58 PM
Before I got my Lang and Shirley , I was within a whisker of getting the loaded Wichita. I feel like I dodged a bullet. I agree with smoothboar, a stick burner should burn sticks. It's a trip that they don't just own up.

Slamkeys, I salute your tenacity . It shows what a motivated individual can do!!

Bigdog
09-13-2017, 08:11 PM
I have added logs to Yoder stick burners hundreds of times and the only times (about 5) that I have added charcoal to the fire box is when I waited too long before adding the next stick.

JokerBroker
09-13-2017, 09:08 PM
I have added logs to Yoder stick burners hundreds of times and the only times (about 5) that I have added charcoal to the fire box is when I waited too long before adding the next stick.

Were you using one of the smaller models and were you able to shut the firebox door right away? I think that is what the gripe is all about.

JokerBroker
09-13-2017, 09:17 PM
...I was within a whisker of getting the loaded Wichita. I feel like I dodged a bullet. Slamkeys, I salute your tenacity!

+1

I was ready to order a Loaded Wichita as well until I stumbled across this thread. Slamkeys was clearly not some internet troll with a vendetta against Yoder. Anyone who read the whole thread could see that. I continued my research and ordered the LSG, which began to be built yesterday as a matter or fact!:clap2:

SmoothBoarBBQ
09-14-2017, 07:21 AM
That's a totally legit BBQ style, but you can do it a whole lot cheaper with some cinder blocks, some expanded steel grating, and a sheet of corrugated roofing tin. You'll get more grate space too.

I have nothing against shoveling coals from a burn barrel, but it's really not the best way to go with an offset STICK burner. haha For cinder block pits or direct heat whole-hog style cookers then shoveling coals is absolutely the best way to go. But if you're shoveling coals into an offset stick burner you're really wasting your time.... without the fat / moisture from the meat coming into direct contact with the coals you're not going to get any smoke flavor at all.

Last year at the NBBQA conference I got to cook a whole hog with Sam Jones and his crew overnight. Good times sitting around the burn barrel and shoveling coals and just shooting the s**t... I'm not really a fan of the heavy vinegar of Carolina pulled pork, but Sam Jones does it very well and with just enough vinegar to give it some flavor but without overpowering the pork.

slamkeys
09-14-2017, 11:57 AM
I have nothing against shoveling coals from a burn barrel, but it's really not the best way to go with an offset STICK burner.
Right. I was thinking about the massive amount of BTU's that go up into the air from the burn barrel instead of into the cooker. For the backyard cook who is trying to save money on wood, that's a lot of wasted heat. I'm trying to make my wood stack last as long as possible before I need to buy more because I'm cooking all the time, not just once in a blue moon.

BTW, Joe Phillips said the "coal base" is where all the heat comes from. My experience is I get a lot of heat from burning wood too.

Bigdog
09-14-2017, 09:02 PM
Were you using one of the smaller models and were you able to shut the firebox door right away? I think that is what the gripe is all about.

No. Keep it wide open until the logs are lit and you have a clean hot fire.

Bigdog
09-14-2017, 09:05 PM
Right. I was thinking about the massive amount of BTU's that go up into the air from the burn barrel instead of into the cooker. For the backyard cook who is trying to save money on wood, that's a lot of wasted heat. I'm trying to make my wood stack last as long as possible before I need to buy more because I'm cooking all the time, not just once in a blue moon.

BTW, Joe Phillips said the "coal base" is where all the heat comes from. My experience is I get a lot of heat from burning wood too.

You are correct, of course it does. Not sure why Joe would say that.

Notorious Q.U.E.
09-14-2017, 09:26 PM
+1

I was ready to order a Loaded Wichita as well until I stumbled across this thread. Slamkeys was clearly not some internet troll with a vendetta against Yoder. Anyone who read the whole thread could see that. I continued my research and ordered the LSG, which began to be built yesterday as a matter or fact!:clap2:

JokerBroker, I'm pumped for you. I'll be in the LSG queue in the next 3 months (wife willing). Kindly start a thread showing off your wares once the beast arrives. I can't wait to see your rig.

I have no beef with Yoder, but I believe in free markets, free flow of information, and the ability for the best products to win!!

slamkeys
09-20-2017, 11:02 AM
You know, after watching T-Roy's interview and the discussion about Yoder's heat management plate, I was reminded of Horizon's "convection plate" system which I've seen before in photos. Horizon's system looks superior to me for a couple of reasons:


Horizontal placement, much like a tuning plate system, does not create back pressure on the firebox.
Adjustment handle allows for tweaking the hot zone during the cook.

I'm also questioning who is copying who, because these two companies seem to have almost identical designs. Did Horizon "invent" this convection plate design first, or did Yoder? Perhaps it was an older company like Oklahoma Joe's, and they both "borrowed" the concept. It would be interesting to hear from someone who knows the history behind this convection plate/heat management plate design.

At any rate, when I compare the Horizon models to their similar Yoder counterparts, I always seem to favor the functional design of the Horizons, while I like the looks of the Yoders better. In hindsight, what's really more important, looks or function? Obviously function.

https://i.imgur.com/di2Jxvk.jpg


Yoder design. Long plate angled downward with fewer holes and not really intended to be adjustable.
https://i.imgur.com/hlnWSPS.jpg

IXL
09-20-2017, 12:57 PM
Roger Davidson, the owner of Horizon, is the brother of Joe Davidson, of Oklahoma Joe's fame. Roger was the vice president of OK Joe's during the heady days of the resurgent Okla/Tx oil boom (Yee Haw!!! that was FUN!!).
It is no coincidence, I'm sure, that the Horizon stuff looks much like the same designs that many of these same guys were making for Joe.
My Horizon convection plate works so well that even I appear to know what I'm doing around an offset. I had no idea that the Yoder product didn't provide a meas to adjust the plate during a cook; I see this as a valuable feature. Also, both ends can be balanced to within just a couple of degrees, if desired, or jacked apart by about a million or so.

Bryan58
09-20-2017, 02:08 PM
New guy here. I ordered a Cheyenne on 8/30/17 and have been reading the Yoder forums a lot recently, especially slamkeys' posts. After Yoder posted about the damper modifications, I decided to e-mail them to find out what I could and this is all that I was told: "I have checked with the factory and all new Cheyenne smokers (including yours) will be delivered with the latest improvements. As for the Cheyenne we have lowered the airflow on firebox door for increased efficiency." I was told 6-8 weeks for delivery, so I'll post some pics later in October.

slamkeys
09-21-2017, 03:30 PM
I had no idea that the Yoder product didn't provide a means to adjust the plate during a cook; I see this as a valuable feature.
Joe Phillips actually said, "The [heat management plate] lip should curl under the ash seal." That was always my understanding, and I have never even thought of moving the plate around since I started using my Wichita.

When I tuck the lip of the heat management plate below the ash seal on my smoker, it extends the "wall of steel" between the firebox and the cooker body up to 6 1/2 inches! Not very conducive to good flow. And, since the plate angles downward, the heat has to move even further downward to get through the cooker body.
https://i.imgur.com/WB71bHY.jpg

From the other side, the open edges are clearly visible, as is the outline of the top of the firebox. When I compare this to the Horizon design I definitely like the Horizon better.
https://i.imgur.com/caMjLYW.jpg

slamkeys
09-29-2017, 12:02 PM
A new post on the Yoder forum from a heavily invested Yoder customer calls on Yoder to be more open about what's going on:

Re: My Wichita Experience
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8960#p8960

Notorious Q.U.E.
09-29-2017, 12:42 PM
A new post on the Yoder forum from a heavily invested Yoder customer calls on Yoder to be more open about what's going on:

Re: My Wichita Experience
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8960#p8960

Slamkeys, your knowledge and expertise is needed in a thread from a gentleman Down Under. Please scroll down Q-talk and find the Wichita drafting mod thread cause I think this fellow needs your help!!

DubfromGA
09-29-2017, 03:01 PM
Slamkeys, I really appreciate your ongoing efforts and insight.


I'm sorta kicking the tires on various offset stick burners and am doing so with an eye on the budget. I can't afford to get something that's not effective and smooth running.

I had such a stick burner years ago that was pain in the rear to cook on. Airflow was horrid and it scared me off stick-burners for quite some time.

I'm taking my time this go'round as I don't have a true need for one.....just a want, lol.


It's great reading through your experiences and very helpful.

Thank you !!!!

slamkeys
10-02-2017, 06:50 PM
Slamkeys, I really appreciate your ongoing efforts and insight.
Thanks. I'm normally a very quiet person, so this drama that has unfolded over the past year was never something I bargained for when I bought my Loaded Wichita. What started out as a whimper from one unhappy customer has turned into a roar from a growing band of past customers who thought they were alone in their frustration over the Yoder offset performance.

It seems Yoder is finally taking some action, but for many of us it will be too little too late. In my profession we sometimes refer to the process of "polishing a turd" which describes the ongoing refinement of something that has such a major design flaw that it will never work as intended despite all the efforts to improve it. The only real solution is a re-design. Have you ever heard of that? Well, that is the perfect description for the current Yoder offset design, in my opinion. Everyone seems so impressed with the precision of fit, weld quality, and aesthetic beauty of their smokers they overlook the fact that they don't actually work as good as they look due to a major design flaw. Yoder has polished a turd.

The smoker market is pretty diverse these days, and it's tough to pick one with so many choices and so many custom builders. If only there was a "try before you buy" option so we knew what we were getting when we signed up. I would love to have a Shirley Fabrication smoker, knowing what I know now, but you have to wait a good while to get one of those, and most of their units are overkill for my needs. My fear is I'll eventually know so much about smokers I'll begin looking for used propane tanks so I can build one from scratch! If you want something done right, then do it yourself!

Notorious Q.U.E.
10-02-2017, 09:05 PM
Thanks. I'm normally a very quiet person, so this drama that has unfolded over the past year was never something I bargained for when I bought my Loaded Wichita. What started out as a whimper from one unhappy customer has turned into a roar from a growing band of past customers who thought they were alone in their frustration over the Yoder offset performance.

It seems Yoder is finally taking some action, but for many of us it will be too little too late. In my profession we sometimes refer to the process of "polishing a turd" which describes the ongoing refinement of something that has such a major design flaw that it will never work as intended despite all the efforts to improve it. The only real solution is a re-design. Have you ever heard of that? Well, that is the perfect description for the current Yoder offset design, in my opinion. Everyone seems so impressed with the precision of fit, weld quality, and aesthetic beauty of their smokers they overlook the fact that they don't actually work as good as they look due to a major design flaw. Yoder has polished a turd.

The smoker market is pretty diverse these days, and it's tough to pick one with so many choices and so many custom builders. If only there was a "try before you buy" option so we knew what we were getting when we signed up. I would love to have a Shirley Fabrication smoker, knowing what I know now, but you have to wait a good while to get one of those, and most of their units are overkill for my needs. My fear is I'll eventually know so much about smokers I'll begin looking for used propane tanks so I can build one from scratch! If you want something done right, then do it yourself!

PJ o Rourke once wrote “the Berlin Wall fell because East Germans didn’t want to wear Bulgarian shoes anymore “. I take away that a Yoder Wichita, as currently designed, is a Bulgarian shoe compared to a free market offering better smokers for cheaper prices. Base Shirley is 400 bucks cheaper!

I say vote with your feet and let the truth be Told !!

JokerBroker
10-03-2017, 08:06 AM
Dear Yoder,
If the paying customer says you have a problem, you have a problem.
Best regards,
The Free Market

funstuie
10-03-2017, 01:25 PM
Here is what is probably a stupid question -

Has anyone changed the wheels on their Yoder Wichita? The big steel wheels are difficult to move and I think something like golf cart wheels would make life a lot easier.

IXL
10-03-2017, 01:41 PM
Dear customer, if you think you have a problem, then:

rotate the entire smoker (possibly constantly) toward more breeze
use drier wood
use even drier, kiln-dried wood ($$$)
learn how to build a fire
build a much, much bigger fire
use about 30lbs of charcoal as a "base" for the forthcoming big fire
open the fire box door, as only a fool would expect our smokers to work by merely
adjusting the intake vents
open the fire box door wider
utilize a large and powerful electric fan to force air into the wide-opened-door fire box
use still more charcoal as a base
elevate the smoker exhaust-side
lower the smoker exhaust-side
watch the "how to build a fire in a smoker that doesn't work" video
watch the video again, this time while adding more charcoal and artisan-dried woods
if the wind shifts momentarily, rotate the whole smoker, momentarily (sounds fun,
don't it!!), regardless of how you would prefer it be positioned in your outdoor cooking area

DubfromGA
10-03-2017, 02:46 PM
Thanks. I'm normally a very quiet person, so this drama that has unfolded over the past year was never something I bargained for when I bought my Loaded Wichita. What started out as a whimper from one unhappy customer has turned into a roar from a growing band of past customers who thought they were alone in their frustration over the Yoder offset performance.

It seems Yoder is finally taking some action, but for many of us it will be too little too late. In my profession we sometimes refer to the process of "polishing a turd" which describes the ongoing refinement of something that has such a major design flaw that it will never work as intended despite all the efforts to improve it. The only real solution is a re-design. Have you ever heard of that? Well, that is the perfect description for the current Yoder offset design, in my opinion. Everyone seems so impressed with the precision of fit, weld quality, and aesthetic beauty of their smokers they overlook the fact that they don't actually work as good as they look due to a major design flaw. Yoder has polished a turd.

The smoker market is pretty diverse these days, and it's tough to pick one with so many choices and so many custom builders. If only there was a "try before you buy" option so we knew what we were getting when we signed up. I would love to have a Shirley Fabrication smoker, knowing what I know now, but you have to wait a good while to get one of those, and most of their units are overkill for my needs. My fear is I'll eventually know so much about smokers I'll begin looking for used propane tanks so I can build one from scratch! If you want something done right, then do it yourself!

Polishing a turd. LMAO, yet that is perfectly descriptive. :thumb:


Again, I really appreciate your insight. Hang in there and know that you've likely helped save folks like a me a pile of frustration and some much needed dinero $$$.


I see you also own a BGE. Now.....there is a product that just flat out works, works, works and friggin' works.

If all my tools & toys worked as smoothly as my kamados then my frustration level would be minimum, indeed. :becky:

slamkeys
10-04-2017, 07:29 AM
Dear customer, if you think you have a problem, then:

rotate the entire smoker (possibly constantly) toward more breeze
use drier wood
use even drier, kiln-dried wood ($$$)
learn how to build a fire
build a much, much bigger fire
use about 30lbs of charcoal as a "base" for the forthcoming big fire
open the fire box door, as only a fool would expect our smokers to work by merely
adjusting the intake vents
open the fire box door wider
utilize a large and powerful electric fan to force air into the wide-opened-door fire box
use still more charcoal as a base
elevate the smoker exhaust-side
lower the smoker exhaust-side
watch the "how to build a fire in a smoker that doesn't work" video
watch the video again, this time while adding more charcoal and artisan-dried woods
if the wind shifts momentarily, rotate the whole smoker, momentarily (sounds fun,
don't it!!), regardless of how you would prefer it be positioned in your outdoor cooking areaAnd if all that doesn't do the trick, we can build you a "custom door" at your expense because you are obviously over-thinking the process for our special-needs smoker.


The cooker design and methods outlined in the video will provide a Yoder Smokers owner with years of exceptional cooking experiences, without the need to change anything or overthink processes.

This thread is being closed.

[mic drop]

YS-Joe
10-06-2017, 06:43 PM
I want to jump in for just a few statements. I'm not here to cause a fuss, place or receive blame for anything. We have always been and always will be a customer service company. We have tirelessly worked at our products since we began this journey. If the product isn't serving the customer or is difficult to run than we need to have a look at the product. We committed to do that so we that is what we done. We made a minor switch to help improve the customer experience and create a way to retrofit old customers. I've ran the old style pit and new style pit and very pleased with results of both. We will be getting some local user opinions in the coming week to be sure they are satisfied with the product.We truly are listening and always will.
I want to correct a few things that are direct quotes of what I said in a video lately.
Kiln dried wood versus other wood. My statement is they are different not that I recommend one over the other. I was just simply stating that there will be a difference in performance and fire management to achieve similar outcomes.
Managing the intake and stack is the way that I learned to run and control a pit. That doesn't make me right but does work. You can do this and maintain a clean and efficient fire. We will shoot some video next week of this being done and the impact to the pit temperature and smoke output. We have been building this exact product for a decade and have made some great friends and life long customers along the way because of this product. From really large pits to the backyard models and everything in between. Nothing is infallible or perfect, so we are always taking feedback and making adjustments.
We are sorry that some of our customers feel like we aren't listening. That couldn't be further from the truth.

slamkeys
10-07-2017, 02:30 PM
Slamkeys, your knowledge and expertise is needed in a thread from a gentleman Down Under. Please scroll down Q-talk and find the Wichita drafting mod thread cause I think this fellow needs your help!!I've spoken with bbqpitsmoker before and he's been chronicling his Wichita journey too, albeit with a slightly different approach. His "mods" include a small fire basket to contain the wood and coals better in a kind of silo arrangement, blocking off the upper vent on the fire door, and doubling the length of the smokestack (40"!). He's been happy with the outcome so far. It should be noted, however, that he has completely abandoned the use of the heat management plate, and the unit does flow better without the heat management plate (recent reference: http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8960#p8960).

Yoder Wichita: My solution to its airflow/drafting issues by bbqpitsmoker
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=252264


Blocking the upper vent:

https://i.imgur.com/tJbfBpV.jpg


Custom-made 40 inch mega smoke stack (wouldn't even fit in the photo!):

https://i.imgur.com/EsFlnkd.jpg


Concentrated fire basket/silo:

https://i.imgur.com/WvDLiMg.jpg

slamkeys
10-07-2017, 03:13 PM
I see you also own a BGE. Now.....there is a product that just flat out works, works, works and friggin' works.Agreed. I used mine last night with the cast iron grate to grill some NY strips and zucchini halves, and they turned out exactly the way I wanted them. The only thing that was left over was a spoonful of sauteed Portabella mushrooms, but I'll be cleaning those up here in a little while :wink:

The only issue I've had with the BGE was the removable ceramic fire box cracked all the way around the mid-section after about a year's usage, but they replaced it no questions asked and the new one is holding up fine. It's definitely a versatile and fun-to-use cooker, and the large size is just perfect for my household.

I just put some chickens on the Wichita about 30 minutes ago, so today is smoker day!

JokerBroker
10-07-2017, 03:47 PM
I want to jump in for just a few statements. I'm not here to cause a fuss...

I don't have a dog in this fight but as a consumer, my hat is off to you for joining this forum and saying a few words. An occasional statement from you on this forum now and again stating the company's point of view can go a long way to enhancing public relations and ultimately increase sales. I know Wilson Combat always has a rep on the 1911 forum just monitoring things and he is quick to jump in if any issues or misunderstandings start to flare up about his products or services. This goes a long way to keeping things from spinning into the dirt. Many people with issues on your smaller cookers feel they aren't being heard so whether that is true or not, perception can be even more important than reality.

funstuie
10-07-2017, 05:12 PM
I want to jump in for just a few statements. I'm not here to cause a fuss, place or receive blame for anything. We have always been and always will be a customer service company. We have tirelessly worked at our products since we began this journey. If the product isn't serving the customer or is difficult to run than we need to have a look at the product. We committed to do that so we that is what we done. We made a minor switch to help improve the customer experience and create a way to retrofit old customers. I've ran the old style pit and new style pit and very pleased with results of both. We will be getting some local user opinions in the coming week to be sure they are satisfied with the product.We truly are listening and always will.
I want to correct a few things that are direct quotes of what I said in a video lately.
Kiln dried wood versus other wood. My statement is they are different not that I recommend one over the other. I was just simply stating that there will be a difference in performance and fire management to achieve similar outcomes.
Managing the intake and stack is the way that I learned to run and control a pit. That doesn't make me right but does work. You can do this and maintain a clean and efficient fire. We will shoot some video next week of this being done and the impact to the pit temperature and smoke output. We have been building this exact product for a decade and have made some great friends and life long customers along the way because of this product. From really large pits to the backyard models and everything in between. Nothing is infallible or perfect, so we are always taking feedback and making adjustments.
We are sorry that some of our customers feel like we aren't listening. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Can you expand on this point please? I would like to know what my options will be before I go any further with mods or sell my Wichita.

slamkeys
10-09-2017, 12:34 AM
I want to correct a few things that are direct quotes of what I said in a video lately.
Kiln dried wood versus other wood. My statement is they are different not that I recommend one over the other. I was just simply stating that there will be a difference in performance and fire management to achieve similar outcomes.

Hi Joe. :welcome:

We had a discussion about kiln-dried wood because of the video entitled "How to start and maintain a fire on an offset smoker," which was posted on the Yoder Community Forum recently. In the video, Chef Tom said the following:

We always recommend a kiln-dried wood in an offset because the consistency and the moisture content will mean a clean-burning log that won't put out heavy white smoke.This is why we are all under the impression that kiln-dried wood is recommended for the Yoder offsets. The comments you made to T-Roy seemed to reinforce that recommendation, that's all. Speaking for myself, I had thought Chef Tom was affiliated with Yoder through ATBBQ, so when he said "we always recommend" I assumed he meant Yoder recommends kiln-dried wood in an offset. If I'm hearing you right, you're saying you disagree with Chef Tom on this.

Here's the thread that resulted from Chef Tom's video:

Offset Smokers- How many of you rely on kiln dried wood to maintain a clean fire in an offset smoker?
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241967

Notorious Q.U.E.
10-09-2017, 05:48 PM
Slamkeys, we trust you amigo. Kindly let us know if it’s resolved to your satisfaction . If Yoder can make it right with you then their stock will shoot up several points in my book!!

slamkeys
10-09-2017, 08:52 PM
I just saw this old video clip and it resonated with me. Paul Shirley, in another one of his build walk-throughs, pointed out how his firebox heat flows directly into the chamber, and explained: "It's not going to be hanging up on a big lip hanging down ... we just believe it's better for flow." He also says: "This damper here is well oversized for this cooker, that way he'll get plenty of airflow."

He definitely gets it. :amen:

Top of firebox mounted flush with the entry into the chamber:
https://i.imgur.com/WKgAY5W.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6krkBPpryA

kboy24
10-11-2017, 11:24 AM
Retrofit the old witchitas? Mine just arrived 4 days ago. I'm feeling like I need one of those firebox doors Slamkeys has designed. I'm not by any means close to Slamkeys abilities I can definitely see Airflow and the door is an issue. I see the height difference between mine and Troys firebox door on his witchita that he got in 2014. My firebox door is much lower and wider on the bottom opening where you can see they were addressing an issue maybe quietly but it was a design change. Hell I'll buy the damn new door if that's how this is going to go down but let's do something PLEASE.

slamkeys
10-11-2017, 12:06 PM
Retrofit the old witchitas? Mine just arrived 4 days ago. I'm feeling like I need one of those firebox doors Slamkeys has designed. I'm not by any means close to Slamkeys abilities I can definitely see Airflow and the door is an issue. I see the height difference between mine and Troys firebox door on his witchita that he got in 2014. My firebox door is much lower and wider on the bottom opening where you can see they were addressing an issue maybe quietly but it was a design change. Hell I'll buy the damn new door if that's how this is going to go down but let's do something PLEASE.Joe Phillips just commented on the new changes over at the Yoder forum. Apparently there will be videos soon documenting the behavior of the new vs. old designs.
http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8989#p8989

I'm a little bothered by the notion that the root cause of the Yoder flow issues is the door. I managed to get a slight performance improvement by lowering the intake on my door, but I've always contended that the firebox is simply mounted too high. It is actually mounted above the lower cooking grate on my unit. That makes no sense at all to me, and the only explanation I've seen online is that the firebox was mounted high to provide the largest possible opening into the firebox. However, the opening into the firebox was then blocked off by 6 1/2" of steel plate when you add the ash deflector and the heat management plate. I'm at a loss.

Many people have noted that Aaron Franklin's pits don't even have intake vents, and he uses the firebox door alone for controlling his intake. That is the truth. However, he has designed his pits in a way that does not allow the firebox heat to flow backwards simply by opening the door. I would be perfectly happy if my pit were designed that way, and I would adjust the door opening as needed to control my fire.

bbqpitsmoker
10-11-2017, 01:56 PM
Retrofit the old witchitas? Mine just arrived 4 days ago. I'm feeling like I need one of those firebox doors Slamkeys has designed. I'm not by any means close to Slamkeys abilities I can definitely see Airflow and the door is an issue. I see the height difference between mine and Troys firebox door on his witchita that he got in 2014. My firebox door is much lower and wider on the bottom opening where you can see they were addressing an issue maybe quietly but it was a design change. Hell I'll buy the damn new door if that's how this is going to go down but let's do something PLEASE.


I haven’t seen the door damper design on the new cooker. Would you please post some photos on this thread?

slamkeys
10-13-2017, 02:02 AM
I was hoping the new Wichita design would be radically different (not just a "tweak"), something like this sneak peek at a prototype of Aaron Franklin's new backyard pit - soon to be dubbed "The Wichita Killer." :razz:

https://i.imgur.com/SaRhRVt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aELMHQR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mkcEvpHl.jpg

https://www.texasmonthly.com/bbq/treif-no-franklin-barbecue/

slamkeys
10-14-2017, 10:54 AM
I just saw a new post from Yoder_Herb on the Yoder Forum that finally explains what I'm doing wrong: I'm building my fire in the wrong location inside the firebox. You have to build it on the back right side next to the fire door. What was I thinking? I don't remember seeing that in the instructions.

https://i.imgur.com/rkJgqeWl.jpg

http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8998#p8998

12ring
10-14-2017, 11:16 AM
Slamkeys I sent you a PM.

CptKaos
10-14-2017, 02:47 PM
Hahaha, you guys are funny

Larry

slamkeys
10-15-2017, 02:48 PM
My firebox door is much lower and wider on the bottom opening where you can see they were addressing an issue maybe quietly but it was a design change.Sounds like a Horizon. Are you sure you bought a Yoder? Maybe Yoder punted and made a deal with Horizon to send them the smokers without the nameplates so Yoder can rivet their own nameplates on them once they arrive at their shop ...

Bryan58
10-18-2017, 07:03 PM
I received my Cheyenne today. When I ordered on 8/30, I was really excited to get this smoker. My excitement turned into regret and fearing what I got myself in to. I'm glad to report that my Cheyenne works as advertised. I followed Chef Tom's fire management video and had no issues with white smoke. While I was seasoning, I got the smoker to 325 on the firebox side and 285 on the stack side, grate level, and was able to set the firebox damper to 1/3 open and the stack to half open and the fire kept rolling and the temps stayed steady with thin blue smoke. The only caveat, like Chef Tom, I was using kiln dried wood. I did have the heat management plate installed.
The damper is lowered, as pictured below. Still the same damper size from what I can tell.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1QUMweW1RUjJmd2s/view?usp=sharing

slamkeys
10-18-2017, 11:46 PM
I received my Cheyenne today. When I ordered on 8/30, I was really excited to get this smoker. My excitement turned into regret and fearing what I got myself in to. I'm glad to report that my Cheyenne works as advertised. I followed Chef Tom's fire management video and had no issues with white smoke. While I was seasoning, I got the smoker to 325 on the firebox side and 285 on the stack side, grate level, and was able to set the firebox damper to 1/3 open and the stack to half open and the fire kept rolling and the temps stayed steady with thin blue smoke. The only caveat, like Chef Tom, I was using kiln dried wood. I did have the heat management plate installed.
The damper is lowered, as pictured below. Still the same damper size from what I can tell.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1QUMweW1RUjJmd2s/view?usp=sharingThat's great news. I can't tell from the photo, but does it look like they lowered the firebox at all?

Bryan58
10-19-2017, 04:32 AM
That's great news. I can't tell from the photo, but does it look like they lowered the firebox at all?

I don't think so. There may be about an inch of the damper that is above the opening of the main chamber. I did see some smoke coming out of the top of the damper.

slamkeys
10-19-2017, 11:27 PM
I don't think so. There may be about an inch of the damper that is above the opening of the main chamber. I did see some smoke coming out of the top of the damper.I'm still puzzled about the height of the firebox because that makes a huge impact on the ability to open up the passageway into the cooker.

Take a look at this Horizon 20" model. Since the firebox is mounted below the cooking grate in the main chamber, the net height of the ash deflector and convection plate combined is minimal, resulting in enough headroom even above the top of the side door to allow you to open the door without heat pouring out of it. This design just looks right to me.

https://i.imgur.com/Og5ndDF.jpg

When the firebox is mounted above the main cooking grate, as Yoder has done, it requires the ash deflector and convection plate to extend much lower in order to get the convection plate far enough under the cooking grate to prevent excessive radiant heat there. This is what has happened to the Yoder design, resulting in the 6 1/2" barrier on my Wichita. This is also what is preventing me from trying to imitate the Horizon convection plate system with another modification. If I were to shrink the lip on the heat management plate to reduce the blockage into the cooking chamber, and then weld some horizontal rails for it to slide on, then the heat management plate would probably end up directly below the main cooking grate. Then I'd have to move the main cooking grate up about 3-4 inches to get it away from the radiant heat from the heat management plate. It's a pickle.

Bryan58
10-20-2017, 09:17 PM
Yea, I agree that they should do something about the firebox. Or at least raise up the heat management plate and the grate to reduce that blockage. I wonder if that would actually decrease the temperature variance from left to right, without having as much heat trapped there.

slamkeys
10-22-2017, 12:47 PM
I'm still baffled (no pun intended) by the Yoder design. What logic dictates that the firebox be mounted above the cooking surface? It's probably not an issue if you omit the ash deflector and heat management plate and simply allow the heat to flow straight into the cooker, but that's not the case here.

I've seen just about every offset smoker brand out there and I believe this high mounting point is unique to the Yoder brand, at least when it is combined with an ash deflector plate and a heat management plate that needs to extend well below the cooking grate. The result is a firebox that pools heat in its upper section and then burps it out towards the cooking chamber when it is forced to move down below the heat management plate or out the opposite side through the upper vent or door opening when the door is ajar.

Yoder can argue they have some unique design here that "holds back" the flow enough to produce more smoke, but at what cost to the customer? Obviously there are more than a few customers who don't enjoy cooking on the Yoder "choke" system because it forces them to cook in a non-traditional fashion, i.e. always leave the door open, or point the cooker into the wind, or simply use charcoal with wood chunks added for flavor.

Yoder Wichita firebox elevation:
https://i.imgur.com/FAvJS5Y.jpg

Bryan58
10-24-2017, 08:38 AM
I just saw a new post from Yoder_Herb on the Yoder Forum that finally explains what I'm doing wrong: I'm building my fire in the wrong location inside the firebox. You have to build it on the back right side next to the fire door. What was I thinking? I don't remember seeing that in the instructions.

https://i.imgur.com/rkJgqeWl.jpg

http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?p=8998#p8998

I realized this on my pit, but when the fire is built in that corner and you close the damper down halfway, the bottom part of the damper is allowing the air to flow directly under the fire and the top portion of the damper is closed on that side. If the damper were reversed, they'd tell us to build our fire on the front right side. If they know this is a problem, why not just fix it instead of just lowering the damper?

slamkeys
10-24-2017, 01:54 PM
I realized this on my pit, but when the fire is built in that corner and you close the damper down halfway, the bottom part of the damper is allowing the air to flow directly under the fire and the top portion of the damper is closed on that side. If the damper were reversed, they'd tell us to build our fire on the front right side. If they know this is a problem, why not just fix it instead of just lowering the damper?
I'm still trying to figure out why they didn't bring in some help if they can't figure it out on their own. Is there an engineer over there somewhere? Roger Davidson could show them how it's done.

My door mod must be superior to their lowered vent mod because I had a dramatic performance increase with mine - and I wouldn't think of going back to the original door. I can build my fires smack dab in the middle of the firebox and the Wichita cooks like a kiln all day long.

I smoked a prime brisket last Saturday (with a few rain showers early on) and I had a great time, and never opened the side door all day.

Fire in the hole! See any white smoke? Note: regular old oak firewood stored outdoors in 99% Houston humidity; NOT kiln-dried wood.
https://i.imgur.com/zn4g3qrl.jpg

Houston showers - look at all that steam! This is one reason I didn't get a YS640 instead - the offset just chugs along even in the rain:
https://i.imgur.com/Z5zyKOSl.jpg

Prime packer didn't last long:
https://i.imgur.com/IXuNy3fl.jpg

Bryan58
10-24-2017, 07:36 PM
I'm glad your mod is working out for you! The brisket looks great. After 2 cooks on my Cheyenne, here is what my firebox is looking like... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1SjF6TFlCcTJWdk0/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1SjF6TFlCcTJWdk0/view?usp=sharing

bbqpitsmoker
10-24-2017, 07:43 PM
Its an unfortunate reflection on the state of where things are at but the paint damage from negative air draft out of the top damper is the least of your worries. The biggest issue I see in the photo is that the welds holding the fire box door on look like something stevie wonder might do on an off day.... With all the issues we talk about with drafting problems the welds have actually been a Yoder strength in many cases. The welds on my pit are perfect. The welds on yours- not so much..... How could that pass QA?

slamkeys
10-24-2017, 11:57 PM
The upper end of my Wichita firebox was completely scorched after a couple months usage, and the upper vent area was already scorched too:

https://i.imgur.com/CouMPtj.jpg

Now that I have been able to keep my door closed and provide plenty of air through the big lower vent, I have zero scorching several months after completing the door mod. There is no evidence of heat flowing out this side. One thing I did here was apply a thin bead of black hi-temp silicone around the door flange so the door doesn't leak when it is closed, so that helps too.

https://i.imgur.com/wzT3SB3.jpg

slamkeys
10-25-2017, 12:28 AM
Its an unfortunate reflection on the state of where things are at but the paint damage from negative air draft out of the top damper is the least of your worries. The biggest issue I see in the photo is that the welds holding the fire box door on look like something stevie wonder might do on an off day.... With all the issues we talk about with drafting problems the welds have actually been a Yoder strength in many cases. The welds on my pit are perfect. The welds on yours- not so much..... How could that pass QA?
Yeah, I had welds that actually leaked grease on my first cook, and this coming from a company that was supposed to be an offshoot from the oil industry. Can you imagine oilfield piping with welds so sloppy they leaked grease that is not even under pressure? Amazing.

I do have some welds that look perfect, and others that must have been done by a different guy. I think I've said at least once before that they must have been training a "new guy" during the time period my smoker was made, and his part of the job was sub-par. I've heard Ritch Robin over at Gator Pit claim that each of his pit builds is assigned to 1 fabricator who is responsible for the entire build. If any of the welds look crappy, he has to own up to it.

Speaking of quality, I even posted a "how to" on Yoder's forum over a year ago that explained how you can add a simple washer beneath the firebox door latch to prevent it from scratching all the paint off as it spins around, but I see they have not taken that into consideration yet either. It's the small things that count.

http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=1202 (http://community.yodersmokers.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=1202&sid=ae95aa2fa4dacf1b175882b79bb83553)

slamkeys
10-25-2017, 12:44 AM
I'm glad your mod is working out for you! The brisket looks great. After 2 cooks on my Cheyenne, here is what my firebox is looking like... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1SjF6TFlCcTJWdk0/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1SjF6TFlCcTJWdk0/view?usp=sharing
I found that brisket cheap at HEB, and I've never seen a prime cut that was so well trimmed for that low price per pound. It was under 8lbs, but it was almost all flat with very little point muscle. The flat was thick all the way across too. Texas is a good place if you like beef.

https://i.imgur.com/lOzTcla.jpg

Titch
10-25-2017, 02:52 AM
Its an unfortunate reflection on the state of where things are at but the paint damage from negative air draft out of the top damper is the least of your worries. The biggest issue I see in the photo is that the welds holding the fire box door on look like something stevie wonder might do on an off day.... With all the issues we talk about with drafting problems the welds have actually been a Yoder strength in many cases. The welds on my pit are perfect. The welds on yours- not so much..... How could that pass QA?

What a great thread, how helpfull was grillpro? Australia

12ring
10-25-2017, 10:18 AM
If you’re not going to sell it I would hack off the FB and lower it. It will take a little extra metal and welding but then you’ll have a pit you’re happy with. I like your posts and they have been helpful to me in building my pit but you’re obviously not happy with yours. I would sell it and get the one you want or modify this one to your needs.

JokerBroker
10-25-2017, 01:52 PM
Yoder will be coming out with a fix any minute now...aaannnnyyy minute now. Excuse my ignorance but how hard is it to lower the firebox, lower the vent, and while you're at it, lower the smoke stack to the middle of lower shelf to help draw smoke across the meat? This isn't rocket science. Fire needs oxygen, heat rises. It's really not that complicated. I've been following this thread with interest because I was within hours of ordering a Loaded Wichita this past May when I stumbled across this forum and this particular thread. I'm grateful I saw this but now I want to see those of you who weren't as lucky taken care of soon. You deserve it!

slamkeys
10-25-2017, 02:35 PM
If you’re not going to sell it I would hack off the FB and lower it. It will take a little extra metal and welding but then you’ll have a pit you’re happy with. I like your posts and they have been helpful to me in building my pit but you’re obviously not happy with yours. I would sell it and get the one you want or modify this one to your needs.
I'm actually pretty happy with mine now that I've done all I can to make it work for me (well, I am going to test a new fire basket this weekend, so I guess I'm still tinkering a little), and I have more important things to invest my money in now that I'm trying to put my kids through college. The only reason I continue to follow up on these forums is because I want to share what I've learned through personal experience with the Yoder Wichita. I think customer feedback is essential to product improvement, and I've always had a knack for noticing the irritating little flaws that exist in the products I use. For example, it might not be known to many people, but the 2000-2006 GM SUV line has a steering wheel that is not even centered on the driver's seat. It's a little on the right side of center. It's hardly noticeable to the average person, but it irritates me every time I think about it when I'm driving my '02 Yukon. I must be a little OCD, but not only did GM not realize the mistake before they shipped the vehicles, they decided not to fix it until the re-designed '07 models were released. Some flaws are too deeply entrenched to "tweak away" I suppose.

On a different topic, I just remembered another thing that caught my attention this year. Yoder made a big publicity stunt (Facebook) out of a visit they had by Steven Raichlen. Ok, that's great - I've watched all his episodes of Project Smoke and he's a pretty big celebrity on the cooking scene right now. However, Steven Raichlen is a Horizon supporter. Horizon even calls this out on their Website:Television celebrity and author of countless barbecue cook books, Steven Raichlen, uses Horizon Smokers on ALL of his television shows. He also exclusively uses Horizon Smokers for his Barbecue University cooking classes.Update: I found a link on a Yoder site that shows Steven Raichlen trying out a Yoder Loaded Wichita for the new season of Project Smoke: http://www.yodersmokers.com/blog/tag/loaded-wichita

I think Horizon needs to update their Website because they no longer have exclusive claims on Steven Raichlen or his shows. I sent them an inquiry asking if they are aware of these recent events, and if they plan to update their Website. We'll see what they say.

Qkooker
10-25-2017, 03:49 PM
The Cheyenne may work better with a larger vent pipe than standard. Tuning plates, vent door modification, and a charcoal basket helped my pit tremendously.

slamkeys
10-25-2017, 05:19 PM
The Cheyenne may work better with a larger vent pipe than standard. Tuning plates, vent door modification, and a charcoal basket helped my pit tremendously.
Are you saying you modified a Cheyenne to get better performance? I've thought about trying some kind of tuning plates in the Wichita.

bbqpitsmoker
10-25-2017, 05:25 PM
The Cheyenne may work better with a larger vent pipe than standard. Tuning plates, vent door modification, and a charcoal basket helped my pit tremendously.

If you have done this please share detailed photos via this thread. Sounds awesome

slamkeys
10-27-2017, 11:51 AM
I'm learning more about how to work this offset from the Yoder forum:
If you can not close the door and manage the fire via the door damper, your fire needs to be smaller.
...
Here is the latest cook by Chef Tom at ATBBQ, which is done on a Wichita. Please note the size and placement of the fire. The fire in the Cheyenne will need to be smaller to accommodate for the smaller volume inside the cooker: http://thesauce.atbbq.com/how-to-make-pastrami/

I guess the theory is: the smaller the fire, the less air it needs, so a very small fire will not smolder even with an undersized intake. Hmmm.

In the new video, Chef Tom has the fire towards the back of the fire box, but never mentions that he isn't even using the heat management plate. The Yoders have much different behavior with the plate removed.

Loaded Wichita with its patented heat mangagement plate removed:
https://i.imgur.com/jLc1o18.jpg

Qkooker
10-27-2017, 12:58 PM
Are you saying you modified a Cheyenne to get better performance? I've thought about trying some kind of tuning plates in the Wichita.

Correct! Tuning plates helped. My Cheyenne vent would not open all the way due to the vent handle hitting the factory bolt on the door latch. I cut the bolt off moved the new bolt hole, 1 inch to the side and this allowed the vent to be fully opened and the pit to breathe somewhat better. I made a couple of tuning plates out of 1/4 inch plate. I also use a removable fire deflector plate that sends the heat downward at the fire box entrance. This helped with hot spots and sends more even temperatures. I also use a charcoal basket I made which I sits on top of the coal grate. The current vent pipe is 3 inch. I'm still working on this and hope to get the 4 inch vent pipe installed soon. I have a larger pit that I increased the vent pipe diameter by one inch and it made a huge difference.

Qkooker
10-27-2017, 01:01 PM
If you have done this please share detailed photos via this thread. Sounds awesome

I will post pictures when complete. I'm sure doing this will help. It may be a while we are still doing Harvey clean up. I'm anxious though. I will be selling once complete, wife says I need to sale all my pits when she saw the price on the Lone Star vertical I want.

slamkeys
10-31-2017, 12:29 AM
I realized this on my pit, but when the fire is built in that corner and you close the damper down halfway, the bottom part of the damper is allowing the air to flow directly under the fire and the top portion of the damper is closed on that side. If the damper were reversed, they'd tell us to build our fire on the front right side. If they know this is a problem, why not just fix it instead of just lowering the damper?

Alrighty then. We have heard where they recommend building the tiny fire. Now we just need an official caption for this photo:

[add caption here]
https://i.imgur.com/LeawlF0.jpg

slamkeys
11-01-2017, 10:35 AM
I finally got a good shot of the gasket I added to my fire door. I bought some black RTV-4500 back in February but never did anything with it, so I decided to try it here after I modified the intake vent.

I put a thin bead all around the flange, then let it setup for about 12 hours before I closed the door. It seems to be holding up to the extreme heat of the firebox pretty well so far, and it completely seals the door opening at the top and sides.

It was pretty easy to apply, so even if it wears off after a year I'll probably apply it again.
https://i.imgur.com/SIPMs0bl.jpg

No leakage since modifying the door:
https://i.imgur.com/EXOcm2Gl.jpg

slamkeys
11-01-2017, 08:22 PM
Did you know that Joe Phillips invented the outdoor cooker with a heat management plate?

United States Patent:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22Phillips,+Joseph+Michael%22&OS=%22Phillips,+Joseph+Michael%22&RS=%22Phillips,+Joseph+Michael%22

The "invention" appears to be the marriage between a pellet cooker and a heat management plate, which I suppose had never been officially patented before 2014 when the patent was submitted.

Pellet cookers and convection plates have been around for quite a long time now, so putting the two together doesn't seem innovative enough for a patent. The true innovation was in the concept for the original pellet cooker. Convection plates have been used in all kinds of cookers, so they are hardly a new concept either.

Hey Joe, can you give us more detail on what the actual invention is here? The lawyer speak in the patent is hard to follow.

IXL
11-02-2017, 09:24 AM
Don't forget that a portion of "what is claimed as new and desired to be secured by Letters Patent is:"

(further comprising) "a manually adjustable outlet on the exhaust stack which is adjustable between a closed position and an open position."

Don't think we've ever seen one of those on a cooker before.....

slamkeys
11-02-2017, 09:52 AM
Don't forget that a portion of "what is claimed as new and desired to be secured by Letters Patent is:"

(further comprising) "a manually adjustable outlet on the exhaust stack which is adjustable between a closed position and an open position."

Don't think we've ever seen one of those on a cooker before.....
LOL! Another case of something that sounds impressive, until you see it up close:

Manually adjustable outlet in the full open position:
https://i.imgur.com/vB62ac4.jpg?1

slamkeys
11-02-2017, 07:01 PM
I received my Cheyenne today. When I ordered on 8/30, I was really excited to get this smoker. My excitement turned into regret and fearing what I got myself in to. I'm glad to report that my Cheyenne works as advertised. I followed Chef Tom's fire management video and had no issues with white smoke. While I was seasoning, I got the smoker to 325 on the firebox side and 285 on the stack side, grate level, and was able to set the firebox damper to 1/3 open and the stack to half open and the fire kept rolling and the temps stayed steady with thin blue smoke. The only caveat, like Chef Tom, I was using kiln dried wood. I did have the heat management plate installed.
The damper is lowered, as pictured below. Still the same damper size from what I can tell.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XniOI1ynU1QUMweW1RUjJmd2s/view?usp=sharing
I don't have any baseline measurements for the Cheyenne. We'd need to get the diameter for the outer circle and the inner circle shown in the photos in order to calculate the intake area in square inches. It looks to me like the new intake size is about the same as the original, but the new one has rounded corners.

https://i.imgur.com/71Ws1ZQ.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Tf89qJU.jpg

YS-Joe
11-06-2017, 04:16 PM
Couple of things.
The patent that was mentioned is for a pellet grill and not wood pit and is a valid patent under the US patent office. I have a couple of patents in on our pellet grills. Not sure how this is relevant to this topic. Had the patent been read,it clearly outlines a pellet grill.

As far as the design of the wood pit we have tested and made the modifications based on user experiences and input to all current production models. We also have a damper that we have sent out to numerous customers. We lowered the damper in new production models and made it slightly larger to allow more air into the pit. We will gladly send the damper or new door configuration to any customer, just email customer service. [email protected]

In regards to the current attack that we are under from Slamkeys in every place he can find. We did in fact offered to make this right and build a pit to his specifications. The other side of our business is the custom side where we will produce nearly 200 trailers or custom configurations. We can make a pit cook to a user specifications. I commend him to get the pit to cook exactly the way he wants. The continued public attacks aren't necessary and border line personal. Slamkeys if you aren't happy with your pit sell it or I'm happy to take it on trade for a pit built to your specifications.

The question on wood is simple. Kiln dried wood if available is the most predictable thing you can cook with. That doesn't mean you can't cook with other types of wood. You certainly can because I do routinely. If I can run kiln dried I do because it does run more predictably, but have run my fair share of other woods and have pear tree cut up and curing now.

We have listened and made changes to the products per customer feedback. Our designs have been enjoyed by thousands over the years. We have won on the smallest stages and the largest stages in the world. We continue to develop new products based on customer feedback and will continue to do so. We are glad to produce products and pits that can be enjoyed by our customers worldwide. We want everyone to be happy with the products they buy from us and doing everything we can to make sure this happens.

We will continue to be involved and are committed to listening to our customers to produce the best product we can. Anybody that wants a pit built a certain way just let us know and we are glad to accommodate. Otherwise we feel like we have produced a product that serves the market well and will provide a good experience to the user base.

Notorious Q.U.E.
11-06-2017, 10:06 PM
Slamkeys, what say you Sir? I have been following these Yoder threads across multiple websites for the better portion of the year. I’m just a bbq enthusiast with no ties to either party. I will say that the concerns did in fact lead me away from getting the Loaded Wichita

Food for thought from a mentor of mine: fair conflict resolution has been executed just right when both parties walk away annoyed (but not enraged)

Rockinar
11-07-2017, 04:09 AM
Theres's nothing wrong with the door or the firebox. That exhaust is simly too small, its creating back pressure and it cant breathe.

JokerBroker
11-07-2017, 07:06 AM
In fairness, Slamkeys acknowledged the patent was on a pellet cooker in post #178. As far as Joe's offers, I am happy to see them. As a consumer, its imperative that a manufacturer stand behind their products. A problem with a product, whether real or perceived, is a problem for a manufacturer. Issues arise and how a company handles them makes all of the difference. On the surface, it looks like these offers took longer than they should have which may have been why the frustration grew to a fevered pitch but I have no knowledge of when the offers were made. It would be interesting to know if there were any charges for some of the offers as well. I am trying to remain impartial but as I've stated before, Yoder lost my business because of this thread and I know of at least one other person on this forum who didn't purchase a Wichita because of this thread. My buying decision may have been different if satisfactory resolutions had been brought forward several months ago.

YS-Joe
11-07-2017, 05:13 PM
We have been working on ways to resolve customer issues that already own a pit and new production models. We have been extremely busy, everything we can build is sold and we wanted to be sure we are making good choices for the consumers. We have been committed to working on these products for months and have been working on them. We need to implement changes that serve current owners and future owners.So I understand this really seems slow, but we have learned over the years to get to the bottom of things before we post anything. We are building hundreds of cookers per week so every decision needs to be carefully measured and implemented so that we aren't mixing and matching. We need to create a clean cut over test in the field and locally with consumers before releasing to the masses. I think we have made some nice progress and made some nice improvements. We will continue to run and test to be sure we do our best at maximizing the designs.

We sold hundreds and hundreds of pit with very minimal complaints over the last 10 years. So when this started popping up months ago, we where really caught off guard. The volume in all products has gone vertical over the last several years. There began to be more complaints (this really has been a very small number) our consumer feedback prompted me to have a look and see what we can improve to make the experience better. The feed back is appreciated and always taken seriously. We never ignore feedback, there have been hundreds of running changes to the Yoder product line in the last decade. We will continue to evolve our products to meet the customer needs and do the very best we can to take care of new and old customers.

We appreciate our customers, obviously we couldn't do this without them.

IXL
11-07-2017, 07:36 PM
I don't know how many complaints were made, and to whom, but several years ago I was told by a Yoder DEALER that they didn't recommend purchasing a Wichita because of all the complaints they had received on them. They further stated that as far as they knew, all of the larger Yoder smokers worked well and everyone was quite pleased with them. So, I believe the problems have not been limited to just one dealer's experience along with the friends of mine who purchased this model, only to each sell them later for a similarly sized smoker of another brand which worked very well and with no demanding and finicky adherence to vague "protocols."

As I understand the offer that was originally made to Slamkeys, the invitation to have a smoker built to his specs was to be accompanied by an invoice for same.

And, once again, we are just tickled pink with our YS640! Its getting long in the tooth and has never given any problem of any kind, if you don't count my wife wanting to know why I didn't order the 1500, or even that really big bruiser Yoder now offers, because she enjoys the food from the 640 so much that she wants to overload it beyond it's capacity (which seemed quite huge when we started down this path).

Also, on those occasions when I have had a question pertaining to some aspect of the YS640's operation and use, the Yoder folks have been very helpful and prompt with their responses.

I sincerely hope this situation ends with everyone, both factory and customer, happy and content with any transactions.

SmoothBoarBBQ
11-13-2017, 09:59 AM
Couple of things.
The patent that was mentioned is for a pellet grill and not wood pit and is a valid patent under the US patent office. I have a couple of patents in on our pellet grills. Not sure how this is relevant to this topic. Had the patent been read,it clearly outlines a pellet grill.

As far as the design of the wood pit we have tested and made the modifications based on user experiences and input to all current production models. We also have a damper that we have sent out to numerous customers. We lowered the damper in new production models and made it slightly larger to allow more air into the pit. We will gladly send the damper or new door configuration to any customer, just email customer service. [email protected]

In regards to the current attack that we are under from Slamkeys in every place he can find. We did in fact offered to make this right and build a pit to his specifications. The other side of our business is the custom side where we will produce nearly 200 trailers or custom configurations. We can make a pit cook to a user specifications. I commend him to get the pit to cook exactly the way he wants. The continued public attacks aren't necessary and border line personal. Slamkeys if you aren't happy with your pit sell it or I'm happy to take it on trade for a pit built to your specifications.

The question on wood is simple. Kiln dried wood if available is the most predictable thing you can cook with. That doesn't mean you can't cook with other types of wood. You certainly can because I do routinely. If I can run kiln dried I do because it does run more predictably, but have run my fair share of other woods and have pear tree cut up and curing now.

We have listened and made changes to the products per customer feedback. Our designs have been enjoyed by thousands over the years. We have won on the smallest stages and the largest stages in the world. We continue to develop new products based on customer feedback and will continue to do so. We are glad to produce products and pits that can be enjoyed by our customers worldwide. We want everyone to be happy with the products they buy from us and doing everything we can to make sure this happens.

We will continue to be involved and are committed to listening to our customers to produce the best product we can. Anybody that wants a pit built a certain way just let us know and we are glad to accommodate. Otherwise we feel like we have produced a product that serves the market well and will provide a good experience to the user base.

Since we're "airing it all out here" can you be firm on the cost for getting a replacement door / damper for my Cheyenne? While that smoker is built to amazing standards in terms of welds / quality, it is very difficult to operate because of the drafting issue. Even with the firebox door open I often had issues keeping a fire with shifting winds and had to rotate it constantly to keep the wind going directly into the firebox. For the record I've been cooking on a Johnson Smokers offset smoker for the last 9 months using the same wood and in the same location and I have NEVER had to rotate that smoker.

So what kind of cost is associated with the new door / damper system? Can you give me solid details rather than have me hash it out with your customer service department? If so I'll use your response when I send my email to them so there will be no issues on either end.

Thank you

Bryan58
11-13-2017, 12:28 PM
I have the new door on my Cheyenne and it will not keep you from having to rotate your smoker due to the wind. I smoked some wings yesterday, and the wind kept changing on me, so I ended up moving it so the stack was about a foot away from my fence, the smoker was perpendicular to the fence. That made a HUGE difference! Nice, clean smoke and it chugged along at 275 with no issues. Stack was halfway closed and the damper on the firebox was halfway open. Maybe the issue is more of an exhaust issue.

Overall, I'm happy with my Cheyenne. Now that I have it where my fence blocks the wind, hopefully it will continue to run great. I ran it for a couple of weeks without the heat management plate installed and I put it back in yesterday. It didn't seem to make any difference with airflow to where it affected the fire. It only cooked different, which I prefer it with the plate installed.

SmoothBoarBBQ
11-13-2017, 03:41 PM
I have the new door on my Cheyenne and it will not keep you from having to rotate your smoker due to the wind. I smoked some wings yesterday, and the wind kept changing on me, so I ended up moving it so the stack was about a foot away from my fence, the smoker was perpendicular to the fence. That made a HUGE difference! Nice, clean smoke and it chugged along at 275 with no issues. Stack was halfway closed and the damper on the firebox was halfway open. Maybe the issue is more of an exhaust issue.

Overall, I'm happy with my Cheyenne. Now that I have it where my fence blocks the wind, hopefully it will continue to run great. I ran it for a couple of weeks without the heat management plate installed and I put it back in yesterday. It didn't seem to make any difference with airflow to where it affected the fire. It only cooked different, which I prefer it with the plate installed.

Are you still running with kiln-dried wood?

Bryan58
11-13-2017, 06:53 PM
Are you still running with kiln-dried wood?

I am. That is all that I currently have access too. I will definitely try to get a hold of a few logs and try them out.

SmoothBoarBBQ
11-14-2017, 03:43 AM
I am. That is all that I currently have access too. I will definitely try to get a hold of a few logs and try them out.

TONS of oak in your area. Best way to get your hands on wood for your smoker is to use Craigslist and search "firewood." Just need to make sure it's hardwoods and no spruces, firs, or gums.

https://columbia.craigslist.org/grd/d/oak-firewood/6351577634.html

Anyways, it sounds like your Cheyenne is treating you well and that's good. Kind of not a good deal that you have to mash it up against a fence to keep the airflow constant, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Bryan58
11-14-2017, 09:22 AM
TONS of oak in your area. Best way to get your hands on wood for your smoker is to use Craigslist and search "firewood." Just need to make sure it's hardwoods and no spruces, firs, or gums.

https://columbia.craigslist.org/grd/d/oak-firewood/6351577634.html

Anyways, it sounds like your Cheyenne is treating you well and that's good. Kind of not a good deal that you have to mash it up against a fence to keep the airflow constant, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Okay, so maybe not an access issue, but a storage issue. I just have to figure out where to put it and how to get it there. When I had my fence put up I only had a walk-in gate put in. I'll see what I can do in the meantime.

SmoothBoarBBQ
11-14-2017, 12:27 PM
Okay, so maybe not an access issue, but a storage issue. I just have to figure out where to put it and how to get it there. When I had my fence put up I only had a walk-in gate put in. I'll see what I can do in the meantime.

I hear it man I had a tough time figuring it all out when I first switched over to cooking on an offset from cooking on a kamado. I bought a log rack online which holds a 1/2 cord of wood and it's still holding strong ~2 years later. Last year I bought a full cord of pecan (my absolute favorite wood) and ended up picking up a few pallets from the local landfill. I put them on a few bricks (to keep them off the ground) and have been storing the wood on those... so much cheaper than buying a log rack.

I was also in the same boat with my fence only having a walk-through gate. So I had the wood delivered (in the link I posted earlier delivery was available) and just had the wood dropped in front of the gate. I used an old wheel burrow to take a few splits at a time and within an hour or so it was all done and stacked up nice and neat. I'm kind of a hoarder when it comes to stuff like bbq wood so it was a nice relief to have so much wood on hand and never really worry about running out mid-cook. I forged a relationship with a local farmer and he gives me a very good deal on wood and it's a win/win as he's a nice guy who also loves to cook BBQ. haha

Bryan58
11-14-2017, 12:50 PM
I hear it man I had a tough time figuring it all out when I first switched over to cooking on an offset from cooking on a kamado. I bought a log rack online which holds a 1/2 cord of wood and it's still holding strong ~2 years later. Last year I bought a full cord of pecan (my absolute favorite wood) and ended up picking up a few pallets from the local landfill. I put them on a few bricks (to keep them off the ground) and have been storing the wood on those... so much cheaper than buying a log rack.

I was also in the same boat with my fence only having a walk-through gate. So I had the wood delivered (in the link I posted earlier delivery was available) and just had the wood dropped in front of the gate. I used an old wheel burrow to take a few splits at a time and within an hour or so it was all done and stacked up nice and neat. I'm kind of a hoarder when it comes to stuff like bbq wood so it was a nice relief to have so much wood on hand and never really worry about running out mid-cook. I forged a relationship with a local farmer and he gives me a very good deal on wood and it's a win/win as he's a nice guy who also loves to cook BBQ. haha

Pecan is my favorite too. I'd have to do the same thing with having them drop it off in front of my gate and then I'd have to use the wheelbarrow to go up the hill in my back yard... I have a couple of wooden pallets in my garage that I can use to stack them on. I just need to get off my butt and do it.

Notorious Q.U.E.
11-14-2017, 03:28 PM
Thanks fellas re: Yoder.

In other news, slam keys, I hope things are okay out there. Any updates from your end?

I hope everyone can walk away with a solution that's palatable.

slamkeys
02-09-2018, 12:03 PM
Thanks fellas re: Yoder.

In other news, slam keys, I hope things are okay out there. Any updates from your end?

I hope everyone can walk away with a solution that's palatable.Here's a solution: delete all of my posts from the forum. Problem solved.
https://i.imgur.com/sRlkerc.gif

I did challenge Herb to do it last year in response to Joe's charge of personal attacks, but Herb said they don't remove posts unless they violate forum policies. I guess after he reconsidered, he decided my posts did violate forum policies.

At any rate, I have copies of my lengthy posts and I can re-post them somewhere else if anyone still wants to look at them. The door MOD post has the most concise summary of my year-long effort to make the Wichita sing.

SmoothBoarBBQ
02-09-2018, 02:00 PM
This is funny... recently I have been looking at trying to sell my Cheyenne so I cleaned it up and reached out to Yoder about the new door or damper. I told them I was having issues with airflow and they referred me to the video by Chef Tom on how to run a fire. I asked them if they could explain why the Yoder design is so different that not only does it require kiln dried wood, but also require you to preheat that kiln-dried wood INSIDE the firebox. Of course there was no answer but more insistence that this particular method was how the Yoders were designed to work (I'll NEVER believe that).

So I inquired about the new damper / door and there are two fixes. The first is a new damper wheel for the same door which will keep the top vent on the door always covered. So before I bought the damper ($30 shipping charge, but no fee) I decided to try their method out. I did an entire chimney of lump charcoal and put it in the back of the firebox (like in the video) and was pre-heating my wood (not kiln-dried) inside the firebox. I also covered up the top vent in the door with a couple of layers of foil. Truth be told this worked fairly well, and it kept the temp right at 225 for about 2 hours. Problem was that this method just doesn't produce enough coals to keep the fire going so I had to keep on adding a chimney of coals about every 2 hours. That's just insane to go through a 15Lb bag of charcoal every cook, as well as using wood splits.

So I asked about the new door and it's the same scenario with no fee, but a $30 shipping charge (fair enough). According to them the new doors has the vents much lower on the door so it works quite a bit better. Only problem is I would have to take the whole smoker to a metal worker to have the old door cut off and the new door welded on. So the cost to get my smoker to actually work is looking at least another $100 overall. Thanks Yoder!

Has anybody taken up Yoder-JS on his offer and had their Cheyenne or Wichita modified with the new door? I'm skeptical it will work and wouldn't feel right trying to sell the smoker to someone else when I know it doesn't work as it should.

slamkeys
02-16-2018, 07:27 PM
Re-posted articles:

Yoder Wichita Door MOD! (http://texasbbqforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=31199#p262045)
Yoder Log Lighter Update (http://texasbbqforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=31200#p262056)

slamkeys
03-22-2018, 04:53 PM
I recently watched a couple videos by Yoder owners who both had something to say about the flow characteristics of their offset smokers.

Video 1:

This gentleman already had a Yoder YS640, and then bought a Kingman with a square firebox and a competition cart, and after many cooks and "learning his cooker" he has decided he needs to use a house fan to keep the Kingman flowing when there is no wind outside. With the comp cart he is able to move the unit around easily to take advantage of the prevailing winds, but on still days he needs a fan to stoke the fire and keep things moving.

Anybody else using a fan to keep their cookers flowing? He calls this a “pro tip,” but it seems more like a crutch to compensate for poor flow. Hopefully it never rains when he's using his electric fan.

https://i.imgur.com/Jd3uBuKh.jpg

The fan appears at about 7 minutes in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWRL0xTbrBE

When he opens the firebox it looks like there's a good amount of back pressure because smoke comes pouring out of it. I also noticed when he opens the cooker there is a surprising lack of smoke inside it. That square firebox might not flow as good as the round one, or it might be mounted higher than usual.

I’ve seen his earlier videos from when he first got the Kingman, and he was working that smoker for the entire brisket cook, but now he transfers the meat to his YS640 to finish it off, which is surely much easier than fiddling with fans and moving the cooker around to catch some wind.

Video 2:

This owner has invested some serious money on his smokers, and provides an interesting commentary because he has had the privilege of cooking on 4 separate pro-grade smokers. The video focuses on his 30” Horizon Marshal smoker, but he also has a 24” Yoder Durango, a Yoder Frontiersman, and an LSG vertical offset. That’s a lot of steel.

In comparing his 4 smokers he contrasts how the Yoders and the LSG have “extraordinary” build quality, but then admits the Horizon is “one of my favorite smokers,” and “it seems to draw pretty well.” On the contrary, he says the Yoders have their fireboxes mounted higher up, and they have awful backdrafting issues, which result in a face full of smoke when you open the door.

Commentary starts around 5:30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlhAozEREVA

In the video, he says the following:
This is one of 4 smokers that I have. This is a Horizon (30").

I've got a Durango 24" underneath that tarp over there. It's a Yoder Durango 24". I have a Yoder Frontiersman as well, and a Lone Star Grillz vertical offset. And this is, as far as construction is concerned, the most crude of the smokers. The welds on the Yoders and Lone Star Grillz are extraordinary. Not that this is bad, but it's just not quite as refined. These guys are a little slap shot dealing with and everything. It took quite a bit longer to get the cooker than promised. It was poorly packaged for shipping when they sent it freight. It arrived badly damaged so it had to go back to the manufacturer for a lot of repairs. When it showed up again it was in great shape.

But, all that aside, this is probably the best cooking smoker I have. The firebox is set a little bit lower on this than on the Yoders. The Yoders backdraft awfully, and whenever you open the door you just get a face full of smoke. And they cook well, but this one's just a lot nicer to use.

There have been assumptions made regarding flow issues only affecting Yoder's "smaller offsets," mainly because a lot of us first-time buyers are getting the smaller units, but here's a guy who only uses the larger Yoder offsets and he points out the same flow issues with his after using other smokers that actually flow well.

Horizon 30" Marshal:
https://i.imgur.com/y4iXZpp.jpg

JokerBroker
03-22-2018, 05:18 PM
I think the jury is still out on whether Joe knows how to properly run an offset. He's a good guy but it wouldn't surprise me if his smokestack is partially closed or something. I used to be a sub of his and he is a good cook overall but I'm not convinced his fire management skills are where they could be. In this case, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the Kingman not requiring a fan in the stillness of the night until further notice.

slamkeys
03-22-2018, 07:41 PM
I think the jury is still out on whether Joe knows how to properly run an offset. He's a good guy but it wouldn't surprise me if his smokestack is partially closed or something. I used to be a sub of his and he is a good cook overall but I'm not convinced his fire management skills are where they could be. In this case, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the Kingman not requiring a fan in the stillness of the night until further notice.When he first got that Kingman delivered and did his first test with it he explicitly called out how he always leaves the smokestack wide open. Not only that, in the fan video he was already being sponsored by Timber Milling & Kiln, and they were supplying him with kiln-dried splits.

That Kingman was used when he got it, and I wondered at the time why the original owner got rid of it. Those units have the sliding heat management plate vent near the firebox though, and it could be that when it's closed the cooker behaves more like the Wichita because I've seen videos where his Kingman looked like it was flowing nicely, but at other times smoke was just backing out through the firebox door vent constantly. In one of his videos he said rain absolutely destroyed the Kingman's ability to burn properly. He thought humidity was the culprit, but he said he had to crack open the top lid on the firebox just to keep the fire going.

Another thing about Yoder's big square fireboxes is the heavy wood grate is very tall, and if you don't keep the coals from falling through the grate they end up so far below the wood they probably don't help keep it lit. My guess is they made them tall because you can't shovel out the ashes any other way during a cook due to the door not extending to the bottom of the firebox. Bad design. I'd make the door go all the way down, reduce the height of the wood grate, and also move the vent down as low as it will go.

Looks open:
https://i.imgur.com/KfQUnNg.jpg

Rockinar
03-22-2018, 09:49 PM
Slamkeys,
C&D Scrap Metal will pay you in $2 bills for that thing. Put it out of its misery.

slamkeys
03-22-2018, 11:11 PM
Slamkeys,
C&D Scrap Metal will pay you in $2 bills for that thing. Put it out of its misery.I can't stop now - I'm working on my next MOD!

https://i.imgur.com/pGZICKul.gif

SmoothBoarBBQ
03-23-2018, 06:45 AM
So I finally bit the bullet and decided to go with the updated damper, rather than door, and I'm actually quite shocked... it works and quite well. With the way the new damper covers up the top vent on the firebox door it disallows that smoke and heat to escape through the firebox door, and instead it forces the smoke and heat into the smoking chamber.

I got the updated damper about a month ago and have spent at least 30+ hours just burning wood to see how well it works. I've used it in the rain, in some 15+MPH winds and I'm actually quite impressed with how much better it works. It still needs a full chimney of whitened over charcoal every couple of hours to replenish the coal bed, but overall it's much better than it used to be.

https://i.imgur.com/HoiMlJ5.jpg?2


Slamkeys, I do wonder what your end game here is. Yoder has already admitted they had an issue, redesigned their cookers to address it, and have offered fixes to help their older models work better. What is it that you want Yoder to do from here to satisfy you?

12ring
03-23-2018, 10:25 AM
I have followed this thread since the beginning. I built a smoker with around about the same dimensions as the Wichita. I used this thread to help me design my firebox door and intake hoping I would have a cooker that drafts well. I’m not quite finished painting it but I should be done in the next couple days. My question to slamkey is, what does Yoder need to do for you to be happy? Do you want them to tell you you’re right and they’re wrong? Buy your smoker back? Just curious is all. Like I said though, I have found this thread useful.

slamkeys
03-23-2018, 07:27 PM
Slamkeys, I do wonder what your end game here is. Yoder has already admitted they had an issue, redesigned their cookers to address it, and have offered fixes to help their older models work better. What is it that you want Yoder to do from here to satisfy you?

My question to slamkey is, what does Yoder need to do for you to be happy? Do you want them to tell you you’re right and they’re wrong? Buy your smoker back? Just curious is all. Like I said though, I have found this thread useful.I pretty much ran the course of dealing with my smoker, and it works fine for me now, although I'm still experimenting. Yoder did what they could to replace my defective items - no complaints there. The only thing left is to see if it lasts for 75 years per the warranty. I'll be long gone before then, but I'd bet Yoder Smokers is still around and going strong. A few complainers on a forum aren't going to affect them at all.

I don't spend that much time on forums, but I do visit when a thread gets updated or I find something interesting to share. I can't really post on the Yoder forum anymore, so I come to forums like this one. My recent posts were inspired by videos I stumbled accross via YouTube autoplay showing Yoder owners talking about flow issues on the larger models, because our discussions have mainly focused on the Wichita and the Cheyenne models, which have been called Yoder's "smaller offsets."

I was very surprised to hear an owner of a Durango 24" and a Frontiersman 30" say they both "backdraft awfully, and whenever you open the door you just get a face full of smoke," and also says his favorite cooker was the "crude" Horizon because it drafts well. I think that lends itself to the discussion, especially because the guy has many smokers to compare, but I don't really care what comes of it one way or the other. It's like any other information out there - you have to decide for yourself whether it's real or fake. I'm not an advocate for any person or company. I'm just a guy who owns a Loaded Wichita and is working on making good BBQ whenever he can find the free time, which hasn't been very often lately.

I get the feeling some folks are getting fatigued on this topic. That's fine. You know what they say when it comes to free speech: "If you don't like the channel, change it." The only thing I could do to make the entire issue go away would be to come back here and announce that I had made a huge mistake and I was doing it wrong the entire time. My bad. Does that help?

patrickd26
03-23-2018, 10:23 PM
Let me start off by saying that I love Yoder. I purchased a Wichita in 2007, a YS480 in 2014, and then a YS640 Comp in 2017. I had to sell the Wichita in exchange for a Horizon. Why? Because I spent countless hours trying to get a free-flowing, blue smoke cook. I just could never get it without cracking the door and even then... It was tough to maintain.

Anway, the Horizon is smooth and exactly what I expect. I can run 45-50 minutes without even looking...open firebox to add more wood and close once ignited. It just burns so much cleaner.

I think it has all to do with airflow on the Wichita. The exhaust is too small and something about what slamkeys says on the firebox side. That stuff is beyond me... But, there is an airflow issue.

Yoder, you can trash me, but I can provide receipts for all three of my cookers. Purchased the Wichita from ATBBQ, 480 from Lincoln, NE dealer, and 640 from Norfolk, NE dealer.

slamkeys
03-26-2018, 02:18 AM
I spent countless hours trying to get a free-flowing, blue smoke cook. I just could never get it without cracking the door and even then... It was tough to maintain.I saw a new T-Roy Cooks video that shows his Wichita in the background with the door cracked, and you can see how weak the draw is with the Yoder design. Whenever the wood is putting off smoke it just billows out of the fire door. At some point the wood becomes solid coals and you can't see smoke anymore, but the same amount of heat still rises from the open door, in my experience. That's why I started experimenting with a lower intake, I wanted all my heat to move into the cooker, not into my back yard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh7bkGwsoIc

I had a couple of cooks (before I modded the fire door) where there was a 5-10 mph breeze blowing directly into the firebox end, and that created enough pressure to overcome the lack of draw on this smoker, but those days are few and far between unless you keep moving the cooker around to catch the wind. I refuse to use an electric fan to simulate wind on those calm days!

Melt In The Sun
04-02-2018, 04:52 PM
Finally got the new door on...about a year later? I'd gotten pretty good at managing the fire in this thing using a chopped up cookie sheet, attached to the end of the firebox with tie wire.

Cooks pretty nice now! Still wish I had a lefty because of how the wind blows through that part of my yard, but that ain't happening. Needs some rust to match the rest of the cooker.

Fishfry
04-03-2018, 12:25 PM
Here is my Cheyenne mod

slamkeys
05-25-2018, 01:38 PM
ATBBQ has some new photos posted for the Wichita. The vent is now lowered in the photos. I didn't see any changes in the Cheyenne photos yet.

No mention of "New and Improved" anywhere. Maybe the difference in performance was too subtle to mention.
https://i.imgur.com/wBoMoOah.jpg

Darkfix
06-27-2018, 06:11 AM
I did pull the trigger on the "updated" Kingman... Will get it in a few weeks.
Will get interesting if it works as it should, it's a bit of gamble with my $$$...


Since there was almost no complaints on the original Kingman, it hopefully gets even better with the new door on it.

SmoothBoarBBQ
06-27-2018, 07:45 AM
I did pull the trigger on the "updated" Kingman... Will get it in a few weeks.
Will get interesting if it works as it should, it's a bit of gamble with my $$$...


Since there was almost no complaints on the original Kingman, it hopefully gets even better with the new door on it.

I'm just curious why you decided to go with the Kingman? Have you read about the issues with other Yoder offsets before you made the purchase?

Darkfix
06-27-2018, 02:51 PM
I'm just curious why you decided to go with the Kingman? Have you read about the issues with other Yoder offsets before you made the purchase?


Yes I did..


Did talk to an BBQ Team that uses Kingman and they were very satisfied.
I've read all Slamkeys posts here and there, and I was about to get the Witcita but since many owners appears to have some issues with old and new door I decided to not buy that one.


Also I live in Europe, and Yoder is more or less the only real USA offset smoker you can order. I did talk to Horizon several times, but they didn't get back to me with shipping, so their loss. Also talked to Gator Pits, but the shipping was sadly insane.


If there are any issues with airflow with the Kingman I will mod it.


Will post more soon as I tried it out...

Darkfix
07-09-2018, 04:24 PM
Got my Kingman today and played with it for several hours.


Will post pictures and a longer update later on.
After some cleaning and inside oiled up it was time to fire it up.


To keep it short, Kingman works as it should I must say.


Even if I haven't touched an offset before I had no problem maintaining 225-250F (left side) and 250-275F (right side).



I could get it close as 0-25F between both sides.


I noticed that keeping a small fire was the way to go, one wood split a time to keep even temperature.


No coal bed, just added some logs and fired it up with my propane burner.
No kiln dried wood, took some dry birch-wood some the pile from my father in law.

No need to add charcoal, just one log now and then.

Today it was no wind at all, and hot outside (27C).

Nice smoke, everything from clear to thin blue smoke.



I have the "updated" Kingman with air intake little bit lower than before.

I still has lots to learn and it will be a pleasure to make some Q on this one.

Intake damper was 1/3-1/2 open, no need to have it fully open!



I'm glad that I took the Kingman instead of the Wichita.


Will post more soon as I can...

slamkeys
08-16-2018, 08:43 PM
Ole T-Roy Cooks finally gave up the Wichita. I've noticed for quite some time he rarely did cooking videos with it anymore.

He replaced it with one of the new Lone Star Grillz 20" models with the 3/16" flat sides (not pipe). His first impressions were very positive ("lovin it") and in comparison with the Yoder he said the LSG was much more efficient and controllable. He commented that the Yoder "would run out of control sometimes."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syq6O13jla8

Looking forward to more of his cooks to see if he continues to love it.

funstuie
08-17-2018, 12:18 PM
Ole T-Roy Cooks finally gave up the Wichita. I've noticed for quite some time he rarely did cooking videos with it anymore.

He replaced it with one of the new Lone Star Grillz 20" models with the 3/16" flat sides (not pipe). His first impressions were very positive ("lovin it") and in comparison with the Yoder he said the LSG was much more efficient and controllable. He commented that the Yoder "would run out of control sometimes."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syq6O13jla8

Looking forward to more of his cooks to see if he continues to love it.

I noticed that. A lot of the youtube bbq guys (mothers, ballistic) also got Lone Star Grillz around the same time (was there a group buy or free promotion?)

KB BBQ
08-17-2018, 01:16 PM
I’m wondering the same thing. Seems like Lone Star is doing some smart marketing.

marbque
08-17-2018, 08:31 PM
Of course it was a giveaway for free marketing. On another note we have a Kingman and have no issues at all maintaining an even temp across the pit from left to right or right to left whichever way you prefer to read the temps. Door is closed and no smoldering wood. Several other people I know have Kingman also and have no such issue with the door. I have made a few videos displaying this. Our Kingman has never "run out of control". We actually control it with no problems.

FrankZ
08-17-2018, 09:25 PM
I got my loaded Wichita in April and I have enjoyed learning it. It can be a but worrisome when it doesn't run like you pictured in your head but I have kept at it and fiddled some.

Mine has the new door which puts the baffle lower, though I do think it could be bigger.

The two issues I have had are getting white smoke and temperature differences side to side.

White smoke:

There have been a couple things that i have done to deal with the white smoke.

Leaving the door open. I don't like this as I don't think it should work that way.
I bought a cheap short stand fan. I use this to create breeze into the firebox as I am not rotating into the wind.
Managing my ash pile. I have found it better to push the ashes deeper into the firebox instead of removing them. There is still heat in it. Also I leave a bed of ash under the fire.
Split size. I will split down from what I bought. I also cut them in half lengthwise to get a better fit. I keep chunks for spreading into the coal pile as it is getting too small to rebuild it. I may not need to do this much in the future.
The heat management plate. I moved it back some, back some more and finally back as far as it would go. This is the thing I think Yoder were too clever with and I don't believe it works the way they wanted me to think it worked.
Replaced the heat management plate with tuning plates. Mine are 6"x18"x16ga. I bought 6 of them, one is angled against the ash deflector, then 3 abutt and then about 1/4 inch gap and a 1/2 inch gap.
Fire placement. I have been more centered (though biased to the back of the box. If I go to the back right corner I don't get as clean as more centered.


With the ash management and the tuning plates the draw is pretty good. I do find if I push ash too quickly I loose draw and I might see some white smoke. Otherwise it is preheat the next split then when tossed on it lights and I don't have to open the door or open the baffle.

I do want thicker plates as these flex when I try moving them.

Side to side temperature:

I have two chamber probes that are 1/3 the way in from each end and centered under the grates. When I first started this journey I would see as much as 120* difference which is ridiculous. To correct this I have:

Played with exhaust baffle. Closing it down gets the two probes closer but not even 50* is too much.
Tipped the heat managemnt plate up. This didn't really help but it was a thought.
Moved the heat management plate back, and back and back. This for the difference down to 25* which is tolerable, but it also seemed to force the tempurtures down. It was harder to get up to where I wanted to be this way.
Tuning plates. This sorted the issue, at least thus far. I have had spans of time with 2* or less differences, with differences getting as high at 20*. At times the left (far) end was over the right end. I think this is great. If I open gaps closer to the box it increases the difference which is useful. I need to have more time working this to get a feel for where it should be for the difference I want.


If I had to do it again I would gone bigger (Kingman) cause it is bigger. I was worried we wouldn't be able to get it in the back yard. We ended going through the fence between us and the neighbor (though their backyard and over their patio). An additional 200ish pounds could have been really difficult.

If I didn't go bigger I would go with the counter weight and second shelf but not the plate.

At this point I am pretty thrilled and looking forward to the next cook, just need to get time and figure out what I want to do next.

Melt In The Sun
09-09-2018, 07:49 PM
PSA - don't be an idiot like me!

After getting a new door made with one large low vent (https://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3975222&postcount=210) I was optimistic that I would have this beat. Well, it improved things greatly but this summer I've had a real bear of a time keeping the thing flowing well. Today I was going to try cooking some chicken without the heat management plate. I started pulling everything out and started to give it a good cleaning while I'm at it.

Well, I noticed some gunk inside the stack. Started cleaning...noticed a whole lot more gunk. The horizontal portion right next to the smoke chamber was almost completely blocked with smoker goo. Hmm, when was the last time I cleaned it? Never. In six years. Now it flows spectacularly and my chicken is rolling along at nearly 400 with no drama.

If things aren't flowing well, clean your smokers gang!

patrickd26
09-09-2018, 08:15 PM
Split your splits one time. Stuffing to much fuel in the firebox at once disrupts the air flow ( takes up volume for air need for the fire.) So your making up for it by propping the door open. The pit is designed to run on the dampers alone. Control the air, control the fire,control the pit temp. The coal bed is the where you get the heat the bigger the bed the hotter the pit.
This is a 300 deg fire
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/Bludawg51/IMG_20160125_113108.jpg

This might work for your cooker, but for the Wichita... Door HAS to be open; especially if you want to run at a higher temp.

Things will always be hotter at the firebox side. You just need to learn where the hotspots are and use it to your advantage. Tonight, I put a couple racks of ribs on right in the middle of the chamber. Then, later I added about 8 chicken quarters. They were sizzling the whole time and once they had the color I wanted, I moved them to the left side. Turned out great.

On another note.... The Wichita w/ heat plate is a giant pain in the eass. I would just remove it so that you can get the airflow. Know that the right side will be triple digits hotter, but again... use that to your advantage.

slamkeys
09-11-2018, 04:29 PM
Well, I noticed some gunk inside the stack. Started cleaning...noticed a whole lot more gunk. The horizontal portion right next to the smoke chamber was almost completely blocked with smoker goo. Hmm, when was the last time I cleaned it? Never. In six years. Now it flows spectacularly and my chicken is rolling along at nearly 400 with no drama.

If things aren't flowing well, clean your smokers gang!Haha! 6 years!

My Wichita has the removable stack, so fortunately I'm looking inside it often when I turn the stack down before putting the cover back on. Mine gets big curly pieces of black tar flaking off after a number of cooks, and I poke a stick down there to break them off. You definitely need this stack clear to make the Wichita sing.

slamkeys
09-11-2018, 04:46 PM
BTW, the online photos for all the Yoder backyard offsets now show the new lowered intake vent: Cheyenne, Wichita, Loaded Wichita, Kingman, Durango 20", Durango 24". Still no mention of the "improvement" anywhere, and the downloadable dimensional drawings don't reflect the change yet.

The new LSG offsets apparently don't use any tuning plates to achieve even temperatures. I don't know if that was a cost-cutting measure, or if LSG changed their position on tuning plates. They used to brag on them. It's admirable if they managed to get even temperatures without them, but what if you want to create a cool or hot spot? I didn't see an option to add them on their site.

From the LSG site:


Revolutionary new heat distribution system cooks top down with our “cross flow” technology. This system doesn’t need any plates or diffusers to get even grate temps

slamkeys
10-28-2018, 07:36 PM
Long review of the Yoder Durango 24". Interesting takeaways:


Finicky fire management. Owner props the firebox lid partially open while new logs are getting started.
Uneven temperatures.
Back-drafts when firebox door is opened.
Not used often since buying Horizon 30" Marshal.
Owner posted review because he couldn't find much online feedback on that cooker before he bought it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gOiX0mZZdg

The 24" Durango featured in the video is about 4 years old, so it does not have the new lowered intake vent.

https://i.imgur.com/xgz96WA.jpg


This is the photo currently shown on ATBBQ, with the new lowered intake:

https://i.imgur.com/fN44wMR.jpg

smoke_savage
10-29-2018, 10:22 AM
Long review of the Yoder Durango 24". Interesting takeaways:


Finicky fire management. Owner props the firebox lid partially open while new logs are getting started.
Uneven temperatures.
Back-drafts when firebox door is opened.
Not used often since buying Horizon 30" Marshal.
Owner posted review because he couldn't find much online feedback on that cooker before he bought it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gOiX0mZZdg

The 24" Durango featured in the video is about 4 years old, so it does not have the new lowered intake vent.

https://i.imgur.com/xgz96WA.jpg


This is the photo currently shown on ATBBQ, with the new lowered intake:

https://i.imgur.com/fN44wMR.jpg

Here's my take on the Yoder designs, but first, that guy in the video needs to build a way bigger fire to keep all that steel hot.

They appear to have been based solely on the original Oklahoma joes, the heavy duty ones! and in some cases have an even smaller smokestack.

The Joe's were never intended to be ran with the fire doors all shut up like that.
The idea is you get a big old fire going with large sticks, close up the back door with the pinwheel open and regulate the temperature with the top door, propping it open with a special spacer, that has increments on it.
http://www.cactus-jack.com/uploads/public/shop/distanzhalter-new_79_1236.jpg

This is how we operate the Cactus Jack smokers here in Europe (heavy duty 7mm steel units), and that's the way people are still trained, it makes sense, large fire lots of air. You even get cast iron cooking pots to hang over the firebox to take advantage of the upwards heat, if you run the door wide open.

Side note: Cactus Jack was the first European BBQ brand, many years ago, that got the licensing from the Orginal Oklahoma Joe to make that design smoker.

https://scontent-amt2-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/2ac47dd8773e2fe1c0147501e8537f0a/5C610C47/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/c0.0.1079.1079/s640x640/41677341_1551811664964576_7636084399980177483_n.jp g

https://scontent-dfw5-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/9109fced4c98b22eb558ad386d0af6c4/5C4479AB/t51.2885-15/e35/s480x480/34053161_1725255864194428_5363624054815195136_n.jp g

But over time new smokers have come on the market that draft so well that they can be all shut up with small airflow, lone star etc, but the above method seems to have got lost.

Also, the Lone star grillz cross-flow technology is the same as what we run in the Cactus Jack longhorn and have for many years.
The idea is it shoots the heat vertical into the cook chamber, while still allowing a small amount directly down, the smoker fills with heat top down, and is exhausted out the stack that's mounted grate level, creating very even temps.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1853/5645/products/BBQ-stone_m.H_medium.jpg?v=1529528893

So long story short, try running the yoders this way and see how things improve. Offsets will never be fuel efficient but each design has it's intended use.

Zeta09
11-17-2018, 08:06 PM
With the Lone Star, Yoder, Horizon, Old Country and some others is there still a general consensus that the Horizons still flow "best" for the Offset style?

slamkeys
01-22-2019, 06:54 PM
This channel posted a video of a Loaded Wichita being modified, but the follow-up video demonstrating its performance never got posted, so I'm wondering if the modifications were successful or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpCdKMFsZlU

His comments included:
1. The firebox was a little high, the upper vent was too high, and the fire grate needed to be removed completely.
2. The heat management plate needed to be removed. He actually kept the lip, but cut off the rest of the plate with the holes.
3. The smokestack needed to be larger and lower.

The resulting monstrosity looks odd due to the huge smokestack, but will it work better? I'm not sure what method they used to calculate the smokestack sizing. :noidea:

https://i.imgur.com/KGwClxch.jpg

SmoothBoarBBQ
01-23-2019, 04:45 AM
I saw that "Quetorials" video a couple weeks ago and thought about posting it in this thread, but since I got rid of my Cheyenne I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore. I liked the modifications they made and I think it will work much better, but I can't say for sure. To be fair just about any modification would be an upgrade to the original design.

busmania
01-23-2019, 12:50 PM
Love my Yoder. Read this thread twice before buying. I love a challenge.

I have removed my convection plate and added a half round piece of steel by the stack. I also made a 5” stack to improve draw. See photos.

Temps are pretty even across the grate now (usually within 10-15 degrees). Draw is ok but it does still sometimes smokenout if the top of the vent. I have their updated design. Yes I think it needs a few mods but I love it. I might complete the chimney mod listed above but my current solution only required two holes to be drilled in the upper grate bracket.

I’m working on building my next offset which will be similar to the Yoder but fix some of these issues.

Again, for me they aren’t really issues because I like to tinker. I could see how some would be turned off by some things in this thread.

SmoothBoarBBQ
01-23-2019, 03:16 PM
Love my Yoder. Read this thread twice before buying. I love a challenge.

I have removed my convection plate and added a half round piece of steel by the stack. I also made a 5” stack to improve draw. See photos.

Temps are pretty even across the grate now (usually within 10-15 degrees). Draw is ok but it does still sometimes smokenout if the top of the vent. I have their updated design. Yes I think it needs a few mods but I love it. I might complete the chimney mod listed above but my current solution only required two holes to be drilled in the upper grate bracket.

I’m working on building my next offset which will be similar to the Yoder but fix some of these issues.

Again, for me they aren’t really issues because I like to tinker. I could see how some would be turned off by some things in this thread.

Good mods that sound like they certainly help. People (myself included) were also pretty upset with how Yoder treated them in terms of basically telling us that it was our fault...we were the ones to blame for not using kiln dried wood which was preheated inside the firebox. They deleted posts on their own forums and were close to attacking anybody who said they weren't happy with their cookers drafting abilities.

I'd also add that for the money involved with a Yoder offset that's a pretty hefty sum (especially with shipping involved) to find out that you've got to put more time and money into the cooker to make it function properly. I spent about a year just beating my head against a wall trying to figure out how to cook in the darned thing...just wasn't fun and it was irritating and frustrating at every level. It made BBQ a chore rather than something fun and exciting.

I got the new door damper and it made a marginal improvement at best. I gave the Yoder to a buddy of mine in exchange for some work on my truck. He's an amateur welder / metal worker / "tinkerer" so for him it's a fun little project, probably in a similar style to you. I'm not very mechanically inclined, at all, so the thought of me modding my already expensive cooker to work properly was just out of the question.

Either way I'm glad your cooker is working for you and that's all that really matters. This thread showcased how Yoder treated their customers and how it was glaringly obvious that they had some issues which they weren't willing to address. Slamkeys pushed them, and pushed them hard, for a LONG time and in the end they finally had to admit they were wrong and make an adjustment to their designs.

busmania
01-23-2019, 08:03 PM
Yep. I completely get it wild boar. The deletion of posts and such is rediculous. Honestly I think when I bought it 6 months ago I wanted an offset smoker now and didn’t want to wait. Local place sells them. Nothing like a $2k impulse buy! I went into it knowing there were issues that I’d address. Maybe I liked the idea of a challenge. I don’t know. I’ve only had it 6 months and I’m already planning my next build. I hear GREAT things about the kingman so I think I’ll build a replica. Working with a local machine shop now to cut every single piece so all I have to do is weld it together. The whichita will probably then be sold.

Joe Black
01-23-2019, 08:18 PM
Remember to pre-heat your splits before you add them to the fire. This will allow the splits to ignite quicker, keeping the fire hotter and cleaner.

Levergun
01-24-2019, 12:25 AM
I picked up a 5 yr old kingman about 6 mths ago and couldn't be happier, the thing is a beast. Runs 250 all day with a split every 45 mins or so. Was concerned when I first got it, coming from having bge for the last 10+ yrs, but with the great advice here it was a walk in the park. Can even push it to 350 if I needed to with ease.

sneacho
01-24-2019, 02:11 AM
I have their updated design.

How did the updated design perform before you modded it?

busmania
01-24-2019, 06:59 AM
How did the updated design perform before you modded it?

Being my first “real” stick burner (other than my homemade 33 gallon reverse flow) take this with a grain of salt.

I think the updated design performed exactly as this thread explains. Even with my mods and even when stock, I still have occasional smoke coming from the top of my intake vent. I’ve decided this doesn’t bother me as I did make a new door with only the lower part of the vent (but twice as big) but I never use this door.

At stock, I still had wild temp differences left to right which is to be expected to some extent but I couldn’t live with 50-100 degree differences.

I was told yesterday the updated design also included a dropped firebox? Is that true? Can someone measure the old one to compare? It doesn’t ‘look’ like the firebox on mine is any lower.

With the knowledge of this thread I immediately started making changes when I bought it. But then I took a step back and ran 100% stock for 10-15 cooks so I could learn its quirks. Then I started nodding again. I have yet to do anything that requires major surgery. I’ve cut off the door and made a new one (now both can slide off and on as I wish), I made my exhaust mod seen above, I’ve tried what seems like hundreds of deflector plate locations, I’ve got firebrick in the firebox, I’ve made 3 different chimneys, and more that I’ve definitely forgotten.

sneacho
01-24-2019, 11:42 AM
Thanks. Useful info. I hadn’t yet found any comments about the new design.

ASAT
01-24-2019, 03:20 PM
Hmmm, no expert but my takeaway? Pass on the Yoder....

White_diamond
06-04-2019, 05:31 AM
I got the Yoder Cheyenne about 6 months ago.
At first I had the same problems for keeping a clean fire with the fire door closed. So I kept the firedoor open and still had some great food!
But off course I wanted to keep a clean fire with the door closed so I could manage the fire door and chimney vents.
So I kept trying, and what really worked was to cut my logs smaller and in stead of placing a piece of wood flat on the
burnig coals, I placed it straight up in an angle, so the fire could go up and the wood didn't kill the burning coals.
I run a clean fire with the fire door closed al the time!
So, in my opinion, Yoder was right al the time to build a small fire.