PDA

View Full Version : Barbecued Pork vs. Pork Barbecue


Boshizzle
07-22-2014, 08:25 PM
OK, so I'm still needling through the whole definition of barbecue. Yeah, I know, it's futile. But, please bear with me.

Where I come from, pork isn't considered barbecue unless it is pull tender. Around here, pork barbecue is pulled or chopped (we call it minced) and is tender and moist and tasty.

Now, pork barbecue can be cooked either directly over coals at a relatively low temperature or it can be cooked using indirect heat from coals at a relatively low temperature. Relatively low being between 250F to 300F. Of course, smoke from a hardwood or fruit wood is essential.

To me, the distinction between grilled pork and barbecued pork when cooked over direct heat is pretty clear cut. If you cook a pork tenderloin over direct heat from coals until it is a nice medium rare to medium, it's grilled pork. If you cook a pork butt over direct heat from coals until it is pull tender, it's barbecue.

But, when it comes to indirect barbecuing, I think that muddies up the subject. For example, I can cook a pork butt at 275F with indirect heat from coals until it is pull tender and have pork barbecue. But, I can also cook a pork tenderloin using indirect heat from coals and it is done at a medium temperature of doneness and ready to slice.

So, with all that in mind, I am beginning to settle on a distinction between barbecued pork and pork barbecue.

Barbecued pork is cooked using the barbecue method of a relatively low temperature using indirect heat and smoke from hot coals until it is done to at least minimum safe eating temperature which means medium rare to medium to well done and is sliced and it not pull tender.

Pork barbecue, on the other hand, is pork cooked using the barbecue cooking method of relatively low temperature using indirect heat and smoke from coals until it is done to a minimum temperature that allows it to be pulled and tender. Of course, this would also fall into the category of barbecued pork but more specifically pork barbecue because barbecue is always pull tender. Think Venn diagram here.

So, what think, ye, brethren?

lantern
07-22-2014, 08:35 PM
Around here pork that is cooked till pull or chop tender using wood or charcoal is called barbecue. Any other meats taken to pull/chop tender are "X" barbecue. Example beef barbecue.


Everything else cooked indirect to just done is referred to as "smoked". Smoked chicken, smoked pork tenderloin ect.


And of course if its high heat direct...its grilled chicken grilled pork ect.:thumb:

1buckie
07-22-2014, 08:35 PM
Seems like the scenic route to the right answer, to me..............:wink:

Garrett
07-22-2014, 08:39 PM
In my neck of the woods, the term "barbecue" is not used loosely. When we say barbecue, we mean pulled or chopped pork and nothing else, that's has been cooked direct or indirect over coals and or wood. Traditionally cooked low n slow over coals.

Everything else is just smoked whatever or grilled whatever.

Boshizzle
07-22-2014, 08:42 PM
In Virginia, smoked meat is usually pork that has been salted and cold smoked to preserve it like bacon and Virginia ham. So, technically, we really don't think of smoked meat in any other context.

Now, I understand the distinction. Barbecued meats are often referred to as "slow smoked meat" but that is, I think, an imported idea rather than something that I was taught growing up by my Dad that used to raise, slaughter, butcher, and smoke his own hogs.

Gore
07-22-2014, 09:19 PM
So what is the difference between BBQ and this pork BBQ you're talking about? ... oh yeah, you're from Virginia, nevermind. :becky:

Boshizzle
07-22-2014, 09:30 PM
What I am drawing is a distinction between the cooking technique and the product. Barbecued meat vs. barbecue. Both are cooked using the barbecue method but only one is the food called barbecue.

Barbecue = meat that is cooked until pull tender
Barbecued meat = meat that is cooked using the barbecue method regardless of tenderness

Gore
07-22-2014, 09:47 PM
Barbecue = pork that is cooked until pull tender
Barbecued meat = meat that is cooked using the barbecue method regardless of tenderness

Fixed that for you. :becky:

I know what you and I agree with you, but that depends on where I am at the time as these definitions are largely regional. There are no universal definitions. As long as they are clear in your mind, that is most important. If you know the local definitions or those of the group you are talking with, that is even better. :thumb:

rookiedad
07-22-2014, 09:52 PM
what if you foil it?

Happy Hapgood
07-22-2014, 10:13 PM
Pork BBQ has more sauce than BBQ'ed Pork.

Randy3269
07-22-2014, 10:17 PM
what if you foil it?

OOOOOH Boy! Lookin for page three! :clap2: :doh:

Boshizzle
07-22-2014, 11:10 PM
I'm aware of the regional takes on the definition of barbecue. But, big but, there is a well defined cooking method called barbecuing that is universal. What's not universal is the resulting product.

For example, in California, they call medium rare tri-tip barbecue. However, in Virginia, and it's been this way for centuries, beef that is cooked using the barbecue cooking method even just to medium rare is also considered barbecued beef. But, we don't think of it as "barbecue." It may be "barbecued" but it isn't barbecue. It's barbecued beef. Now, a brisket cooked to pull tender is barbecued beef and beef barbecue. A tri-tip or bottom round barbecued to medium rare is barbecued beef but we would never call it barbecue.

lantern
07-22-2014, 11:51 PM
Hmmm.... after I thought about my post and your location I came back to say "whoops", but you had already came in and blew up my "smoked meat" as a catchall.

So I'm willing to call anything but pull/chop tender pork cooked with wood/charcoal "barbecued" X.


But, not one inch will I budge on that barbecue is pork cooked with wood/charcoal to pull/chop tender.:hand:


And that leaves "smoked" X to refer to meats and such that are usually preserved or part of a preservation process.


We really do need to clean up this name mess!

YetiDave
07-22-2014, 11:59 PM
Psh, you think you've got it bad? We have to contest with the definition of BBQ being frozen burgers, crap sausages and the occasional chicken skewer which may or may not result in the ejection of all the previously poorly cooked food you might've eaten on a bun with some ketchup. In the rain.

Yeah, big problem there with barbecue pork vs pork barbecue... :mrgreen:

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 12:00 AM
Hmmm.... after I thought about my post and your location I came back to say "whoops", but you had already came in and blew up my "smoked meat" as a catchall.

So I'm willing to call anything but pull/chop tender pork cooked with wood/charcoal "barbecued" X.


But, not one inch will I budge on that barbecue is pork cooked with wood/charcoal to pull/chop tender.:hand:


And that leaves "smoked" X to refer to meats and such that are usually preserved or part of a preservation process.


We really do need to clean up this name mess!

The confusion of what is and isn't barbecue is hundreds of years old. The verb "barbecue" has been used to refer to drying meat in the air, drying meat in smoke, preserving large cuts like hams in salt and smoke, and pull tender and moist meat be it pork, beef, poultry, game, etc. But, all of those definitions are related to the verb "barbecue" not the noun.

The definition of what is "barbecue" as in a noun to describe meat that is served is caught up in the confusion. I'm just trying to make sense of it so that I can discuss it with the least amount of confusion possible.

YetiDave
07-23-2014, 12:07 AM
I'm just trying to make sense of it so that I can discuss it with the least amount of confusion possible.

I think you're muddying the water a bit yourself :icon_shy barbecue is barbecue is barbecue. There's no harm in providing a quick definition when discussing it, and you'll never find a universal definition that everyone agrees on

landarc
07-23-2014, 12:15 AM
I can't remember where it is, but, there is some region that cooks butts to almost pulling stage, then slice and serve it. I seem to recall they call that barbeque, and folks consider it to be the equal to pulled or chop.

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 12:16 AM
I disagree. As far as the verb "barbecue" goes, that is well defined and well documented. If there is confusion about that, it's due to ignorance, not regional differences. The noun "barbecue" is where the confusion comes in. There are some people in this country that call grilled hot dogs "barbecue."

Now, I don't know about the UK, and, actually, I don't care as it's outside the scope of my definition. But, in this country, a "barbecue" where hot dogs are served isn't a barbecue and has only become so through ignorant writers and marketers. There is no hot dog barbecue tradition in the U.S. and never has been. The same is true of hamburgers.

So, the real question is "What is barbecue the noun?"

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 12:19 AM
I can't remember where it is, but, there is some region that cooks butts to almost pulling stage, then slice and serve it. I seem to recall they call that barbeque, and folks consider it to be the equal to pulled or chop.

Moonlite Bar-B-Q Inn in Kentucky is one. But, they are in the extreme minority in the South.

landarc
07-23-2014, 12:23 AM
That sounds about right, Kentucky, they do have some odd ideas about BBQ

YetiDave
07-23-2014, 12:31 AM
Well if you're talking colloquial definitions, then you won't find a universal one. If you want the formal definition of the noun then just look at a dictionary :-P

QDoc
07-23-2014, 02:03 AM
Growing up in south Arkansas BBQ was pork. Rarely did my folks buy a bbq plate. They didn't bbq but grilled. The best or most expensive bbq was thinly sliced pork served with a spicey, tomato vinegar sauce. You could also buy chopped but it was considered the left overs from the sliced. Most of the fat was sliced from the sliced pork serving only lean meat. The fat was mixed with the chopped.

THoey1963
07-23-2014, 03:00 AM
Where you are from and how you are raised is defining your definition. I "grew up" in central California, and BBQ was anything cooked over a pit with charcoal or wood. Burgers, dogs, steaks, brisket, pork, etc. Hot and fast, low and slow, somewhere in between. It was all BBQ. You invited someone over to BBQ and you could expect to eat anything I listed and more.

As I grew older and moved around, I learned that in different regions of the US, BBQ meant different things. Does that mean that what I grew up with wasn't BBQ? No. Does that mean that what I ate in other places like Texas wasn't BBQ? No.

I think the only true definition of BBQ is the act of cooking something, usually outside, over fire fueled by wood or charcoal of some sort.

Your definition may vary...

BobBrisket
07-23-2014, 03:30 AM
Will this be in your book?

5string
07-23-2014, 06:05 AM
I like to barbecue barbecue on my barbecue at a barbecue.
To clarify my point of view, I have homes in NC and CA and travel everywhere in between judging and tasting "regional" BBQ.
Several good points brought up in this thread. While I understand that in NC, "Barbecue" is pulled or hacked up pork or whole hog period, NC is a very small dot on the big picture of BBQ. In Texas, anything that isn't beef is just a side. In CA, just about anything grilled is called BBQ. Tri Tip is not solely referred to as "BBQ", it's just Tri Tip. The Midwest is all about the sauces , while the south has as many different styles as NC has counties. Some in Memphis will claim that it's all about the dry rubs while just as many will prefer sauce on their meat. So I guess my point, for what it's worth, is I agree with those who say "Barbecue" has many different regional meanings. I also agree, despite my CA upbringing, that proper BBQ is cooked indirectly over low heat and smoke. Regardless of what specific animal it came from.
Just my 2 cents worth
Remain calm and BBQ on...

deguerre
07-23-2014, 06:08 AM
Is a keg involved in either?

Lake Dogs
07-23-2014, 06:39 AM
OK, so I'm still needling through the whole definition of barbecue. Yeah, I know, it's futile. But, please bear with me.

Where I come from, pork isn't considered barbecue unless it is pull tender. Around here, pork barbecue is pulled or chopped (we call it minced) and is tender and moist and tasty.

Now, pork barbecue can be cooked either directly over coals at a relatively low temperature or it can be cooked using indirect heat from coals at a relatively low temperature. Relatively low being between 250F to 300F. Of course, smoke from a hardwood or fruit wood is essential.

To me, the distinction between grilled pork and barbecued pork when cooked over direct heat is pretty clear cut. If you cook a pork tenderloin over direct heat from coals until it is a nice medium rare to medium, it's grilled pork. If you cook a pork butt over direct heat from coals until it is pull tender, it's barbecue.

But, when it comes to indirect barbecuing, I think that muddies up the subject. For example, I can cook a pork butt at 275F with indirect heat from coals until it is pull tender and have pork barbecue. But, I can also cook a pork tenderloin using indirect heat from coals and it is done at a medium temperature of doneness and ready to slice.

So, with all that in mind, I am beginning to settle on a distinction between barbecued pork and pork barbecue.

Barbecued pork is cooked using the barbecue method of a relatively low temperature using indirect heat and smoke from hot coals until it is done to at least minimum safe eating temperature which means medium rare to medium to well done and is sliced and it not pull tender.

Pork barbecue, on the other hand, is pork cooked using the barbecue cooking method of relatively low temperature using indirect heat and smoke from coals until it is done to a minimum temperature that allows it to be pulled and tender. Of course, this would also fall into the category of barbecued pork but more specifically pork barbecue because barbecue is always pull tender. Think Venn diagram here.

So, what think, ye, brethren?


You're SO right! However, what if it's chicken, beef, or worse, something different like salmon? :-) No no, not wanting controversy this morning...

Good morning sir! We're still looking for that book.


Hey, you're a researcher type-of-guy, how did the nonsense of low n slow being 220 come to pass?

Brew n Que
07-23-2014, 06:47 AM
Ok, let me stir the pot a bit.

I also agree, despite my CA upbringing, that proper BBQ is cooked indirectly over low heat and smoke.

So, what you're saying is that a UDS doesn't make proper BBQ since it is a direct low heat methed? :mrgreen:

deguerre
07-23-2014, 06:49 AM
http://cdn.omg-facts.com/2012/8/21/afc031a5390a2d79d7dcc9ce845c79a0

1buckie
07-23-2014, 07:45 AM
I disagree. As far as the verb "barbecue" goes, that is well defined and well documented. If there is confusion about that, it's due to ignorance, not regional differences. The noun "barbecue" is where the confusion comes in. There are some people in this country that call grilled hot dogs "barbecue."

Now, I don't know about the UK, and, actually, I don't care as it's outside the scope of my definition. But, in this country, a "barbecue" where hot dogs are served isn't a barbecue and has only become so through ignorant writers and marketers. There is no hot dog barbecue tradition in the U.S. and never has been. The same is true of hamburgers.

So, the real question is "What is barbecue the noun?"

"There is no hot dog barbecue tradition in the U.S. and never has been. The same is true of hamburgers."

Here is where the problem occurs.........there is the tradition of dawgs & burgers being "barbeque"......not lower heat, indirect, the really good stuff we all know & love, not THE noun you're after, but "A Tradition" just the same......
Not centuries, but decades old, starting just after WWII when the vets came home, bought homes & ended up wanting to DO something with that backyard they now owned......
Now, before propane BBQ's ( noun, the machine itself) became all the rage, there was braziers......open pit, direct heat, sling it on there & hope it didn't burn too bad kinda machines.....the Middle Class then had an 'in' to open fire cooked meat........not just the specialist purveyors from mostly the South.
This was a start of a tradition of many, many more people doing it on their own.......

If you want to place blame on someone for really making this accelerate, call out Geo. Stephens, inventor of
" Covered, damper-controlled cooking.....IF YOU PLEASE !!! "

The Weber.......that really made the faux "burgers & dawgs" tradition skyrocket, he along with contemporaries like Hilton Meigs & a few others made all that available.......to millions of people.......
Sure, it takes (or better yet, steals) the name from the grandfather of the cooking style, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery & all, but in attempting to be helpful, I believe finding where the road farked might help clarify the issue......


Now, it seems unfortunately, I'm a part of the ongoing problem.....

"Now, a brisket cooked to pull tender is barbecued beef and beef barbecue. A tri-tip or bottom round barbecued to medium rare is barbecued beef but we would never call it barbecue."

More than half the time, and being from California, I cook tri-tip to pull tender & while it is barbecued beef and beef barbecue, I call it tri-tip.............


.

5string
07-23-2014, 08:03 AM
Ok, let me stir the pot a bit.



So, what you're saying is that a UDS doesn't make proper BBQ since it is a direct low heat methed? :mrgreen:

Not at all Brew. By indirect I don't necessarily mean an offset cooker. The heat source in a UDS is well below the meat as in almost any vertical smoker. Same as on a "Santa Maria" style grill.

Lake Dogs
07-23-2014, 08:11 AM
Now, before propane BBQ's ( noun, the machine itself) became all the rage, there was braziers......open pit, direct heat, sling it on there & hope it didn't burn too bad kinda machines.....the Middle Class then had an 'in' to open fire cooked meat........not just the specialist purveyors from mostly the South.
.

But this is a mis-use of the term. The term for these are grills. This (above) is grilling, not barbecuing... People across the nation have been mis-using the term "We're gonna have a barbecue this weekend" are confusing that with "We're gonna have a cookout this weekend". They're not the same. Just because many people use them as synonyms doesn't mean they're actually interchangable or mean the same thing; they dont.

DaveAlvarado
07-23-2014, 08:27 AM
The terms get confusing when you mix in regional differences. Especially the Carolinas where they have a wackadoodle use of "barbecue".

Personally I consider anything cooked over wood or charcoal, whether direct or indirect to be "barbecued" if it was cooked anywhere in the 200F-350F range. Below 200F you're getting into "smoked" territory, and below 100F it's "cold smoked". Above 350F or so you're grilling if cooking with direct heat and roasting if it's indirect (or baking if it's a bread product).

So you can have smoked pork (like bacon or ham), barbecued pork (pulled shoulder, spare ribs, money muscle slices, whole hog, etc.), grilled pork (pork chops), or roasted pork (roasted stuffed tenderloin). Same goes for beef, chicken, lamb, goat, etc.

You can also apply those different techniques to the same piece of meat. Take a pork loin for example. You can salt cure it then put it in your smoker at 160F and you get Canadian bacon. You can put rub on it and put it in your smoker at 250F until it hits an internal temp of 150F and have super delicious, tender barbecued loin slices. You can slice it raw and toss it on the grill at 450F and have grilled pork chops. Or you can butterfly it, stuff it with an herbed bready stuffing, tie it with twine, and roast it indirect at 400F for a stuffed pork roast.

Ron_L
07-23-2014, 08:41 AM
So, the real question is "What is barbecue the noun?"

I've never barbecued a noun. Do you foil it?

:becky:

Around here there are at least two definitions of barbecue as a noun...

1. I am going to a barbecue, meaning a gathering where food is cooked outdoors and is typically held outdoors

2. I am going to eat some barbecue, meaning just about anything with barbecue sauce on it. The general population doesn't make a distinction between grilling and smoking (or barbecuing). They think of anything with barbecue sauce on it as barbecue.

And...

Is it "barbecue" or "barbeque"? :twisted:

Enrico Brandizzi
07-23-2014, 08:43 AM
May I say one thing more..... Here in Italy the ONLY DIFFERENCE is .....

Ok barbecue needs ALWAYS lid on. Otherwise is grilling!

Enrico Brandizzi
07-23-2014, 08:45 AM
This simply truth is not still shining all over Italians. But I am working for it!

1buckie
07-23-2014, 08:48 AM
But this is a mis-use of the term. The term for these are grills. This (above) is grilling, not barbecuing... People across the nation have been mis-using the term "We're gonna have a barbecue this weekend" are confusing that with "We're gonna have a cookout this weekend". They're not the same. Just because many people use them as synonyms doesn't mean they're actually interchangable or mean the same thing; they dont.


Agreed, and that's why I brought that up....

How to convince millions of people, a large number of whom have passed away from old age, to change their terminology?

5string
07-23-2014, 09:31 AM
There are several regional dialects in the US that all pronounce the word "OIL" differently. Who is correct?
One of the most profound movie lines of all times described what is going on here. Burt Reynolds to Sally Field in Smokey and the Bandit after discussing what is common knowledge in NY vs GA. "It depends a lot on where you're standing at the time as to how dumb you are."
Is it really that important what we call what, as long as it's good?

BBQ Bandit
07-23-2014, 10:15 AM
What I am drawing is a distinction between the cooking technique and the product. Barbecued meat vs. barbecue. Both are cooked using the barbecue method but only one is the food called barbecue.

Barbecue = meat that is cooked until pull tender
Barbecued meat = meat that is cooked using the barbecue method regardless of tenderness


A slightly different description for me...
I use the term 'smoked' for sliced meats; I.E. applewood smoked porkloin, pecan smoked salmon, hickory smoked prime rib... etc.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-23-2014, 10:53 AM
I know what you and I agree with you, but that depends on where I am at the time as these definitions are largely regional. There are no universal definitions. As long as they are clear in your mind, that is most important. If you know the local definitions or those of the group you are talking with, that is even better. :thumb:

This is the best explanation I've heard to date, I've had a hard time seeing the forest for the trees (of multiple versions of 'correct' explanations). :doh: Barbeque has been around longer than the typical regional explanations. I think a regionalist will not secure world acceptance their particular doctrine is the only correct one -- in fact, I doubt they will secure majority American acceptance their particular doctrine is the only correct one. I'm okay with a region defining barbeque for itself -- which is what appears to the foundation of this argument given the varied interpretations and understandings throughout the globe and time. The wonderful differences in regional barbeque are worth celebrating, I hear entire online forums are dedicated to exactly that! :clap2:

I wonder what resident aliens call barbeque. :bolt:

Bamabuzzard
07-23-2014, 11:08 AM
But, in this country, a "barbecue" where hot dogs are served isn't a barbecue and has only become so through ignorant writers and marketers. There is no hot dog barbecue tradition in the U.S. and never has been. The same is true of hamburgers.

So, the real question is "What is barbecue the noun?"

I get what you're saying but cultures/society determines the definition and since cultures and societies change and evolve then the definition will to. But you're right, there are people that call hot dogs and hamburgers being cooked on a grill as barbecue. Now in my opinion the definition of bbq the noun is ribs (beef or pork), pork butt, brisket and chicken. That's it. Anything outside of that isn't barbecue "the noun".

Lake Dogs
07-23-2014, 11:41 AM
Actually, there is correct and there is incorrect, and just because you grew up using it incorrectly doesn't make it defacto correct. For example, it's normal around here to use double negatives to mean a negative. Doesn't make it correct; bad english and bad logic is just that. Luckily we know what is the intent, normally.

For example, there are automobiles, which have a few types, like cars, and trucks, SUV's, and motorcycles, and a few others. Within trucks you might have the Ford F150 and F250, the Chevy 1500 and 2500. If you were intending to test drive the Ford F150, you wouldn't say "I'm going to look for a car". You're looking a trucks. They're both automobiles, but they're NOT the same.

There's cooking. In cooking styles (there are MANY), there's grilling, barbecuing, frying, baking, and many others. They mean different things. If you're putting that steak on the weber over direct heat at probably 500 degrees, you're definitely grilling, not BBQ'ing. You can however put a boston butt on that weber, usually moving the coals to the side, run it at about 275 degrees and while you're using the same equipment, you're BBQing not grilling.

That's why if you're having a shin-dig outside, we just say correctly "cook out", which could be grilling (most of the time does), or could mean bbqing. However, if you say "we're having a bbq", it actually means you'll be barbecuing something, when in fact most people are wrong, because they're grilling...

I'm not about to tell you to stop or correct you. That's fine. It would be like trying to get the folks from Lizella GA to stop using the double negatives; wont happen and only will piss everyone off... But, it doesn't make it correct.

Side note: I loved it when my brother first looked at my Lang and said "Holy cow, how many steaks can you grill on that?", and I politely answered "None. It doesn't grill. The baffle runs right under the grate, so it's strictly a BBQ machine".

deguerre
07-23-2014, 11:51 AM
Aw HELL, Hance! It don't make no nevermind!




















We favor triple negatives where I'm from.

And yes. I have actually said this. Out loud. To another person. In PUBLIC.

DaveAlvarado
07-23-2014, 11:55 AM
Now in my opinion the definition of bbq the noun is ribs (beef or pork), pork butt, brisket and chicken. That's it. Anything outside of that isn't barbecue "the noun".

Whole hog would like a word with you.

1buckie
07-23-2014, 11:59 AM
Lake Dogs,

Gotcha.......I use the term correctly as much as I can......BBQ being Butts, ribs, beef types, even chicken, slow indirect as the centerpiece for a bunch of "grilled" or sometimes indirect smoked & cold sides.....

If I'm grilling, it's "Let's grill up some stuff & get folks together to eat"

It's the zillions of people that have gone on calling it BBQ that would be hard to convince................


like the story with your brother.......:-o

deguerre
07-23-2014, 11:59 AM
Now in my opinion the definition of bbq the noun is ribs (beef or pork), pork butt, brisket and chicken...

Chicken? CHICKEN??? :tsk:

chambersuac
07-23-2014, 12:04 PM
Dang man, this is the worst threads ever - a total waste of time. I mean why do all this work trying to figure it out. Just have a few beers and listen to the video below. :) Just kididng...but do listen. You're probably aware of the song...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ubTQfr_tyY

Lake Dogs
07-23-2014, 12:09 PM
Chicken? CHICKEN??? :tsk:
Chicken, definitely dont make no nevermind. tripple negative, is back to a negative, yes? or dont that make no nevermind neither.

deguerre
07-23-2014, 12:14 PM
Damn, son! Slap some Georgia on that whydon'cha?

caseydog
07-23-2014, 12:18 PM
So what is the difference between BBQ and this pork BBQ you're talking about? ... oh yeah, you're from Virginia, nevermind. :becky:

I'm still trying to figure out the whole "nacho" thing. :confused:

CD

deguerre
07-23-2014, 12:20 PM
Nacho's fake. Just like Lawler.

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 05:07 PM
You're SO right! However, what if it's chicken, beef, or worse, something different like salmon? :-) No no, not wanting controversy this morning...

Good morning sir! We're still looking for that book.


Hey, you're a researcher type-of-guy, how did the nonsense of low n slow being 220 come to pass?

Honestly? I think it came about in the 1st half of the 20th century when newspaper writers were telling people how to replicate barbecue on their home ovens. So far, all of my research on the phrase "low and slow" shows up often in newspaper articles about cooking explaining how to cook lean cuts and "home" barbecue on your wood or oil fired stoves and ovens.

That doesn't mean that low and slow temps weren't used to cook barbecue, just that the phrase "low and slow" was used to describe the temps to set your oven to when roasting cheap cuts of meat.

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 05:10 PM
I've never barbecued a noun. Do you foil it?

:becky:

Around here there are at least two definitions of barbecue as a noun...

1. I am going to a barbecue, meaning a gathering where food is cooked outdoors and is typically held outdoors

2. I am going to eat some barbecue, meaning just about anything with barbecue sauce on it. The general population doesn't make a distinction between grilling and smoking (or barbecuing). They think of anything with barbecue sauce on it as barbecue.

And...

Is it "barbecue" or "barbeque"? :twisted:

Yeah, the meat with BBQ sauce on it being called barbecue is an often heard claim. We have been able to buy "barbecued" rotisserie chickens in my town for as long as I can remember. All they do is pour BBQ sauce over a rotisserie chicken and call it barbecue chicken.

deguerre
07-23-2014, 05:11 PM
AGAIN with the damn chicken! :tsk:

deguerre
07-23-2014, 05:12 PM
Then again, Texans think I'm a heretic with my pork centrist attitude...

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 05:13 PM
Lot's of good stuff in this thread so far! Thanks, brethren!

Ultimately, I guess I'm looking to define barbecue like most of us do in the South.I doubt that there will ever be a uniform definition across the country. That being said, I think that Southerners are a bit more passionate about the definition of barbecue than the rest of the country. Southerners are insulted at the idea of "barbecuing" a hot dog. It borders on sacrilege where I come from.

Hawg Father of Seoul
07-23-2014, 06:49 PM
I guess I grill my pork till tender. Won a couple state championships with it.

Where do I have to send the trophies since it is not BBQ?

rookiedad
07-23-2014, 06:58 PM
I get what you're saying but cultures/society determines the definition and since cultures and societies change and evolve then the definition will to. But you're right, there are people that call hot dogs and hamburgers being cooked on a grill as barbecue. Now in my opinion the definition of bbq the noun is ribs (beef or pork), pork butt, brisket and chicken. That's it. Anything outside of that isn't barbecue "the noun".

ain't some sausages not never no barbecue?

Drunk Monkey
07-23-2014, 06:58 PM
http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/post-15337-Christian-Bale-confused-gif-Hje6.gif

Kathy's Smokin'
07-23-2014, 07:16 PM
Some pictures not never need no words.

Did I do good? :-o

SmokinIllini
07-23-2014, 07:20 PM
I've never barbecued a noun. Do you foil it?

:becky:

Around here there are at least two definitions of barbecue as a noun...

1. I am going to a barbecue, meaning a gathering where food is cooked outdoors and is typically held outdoors

2. I am going to eat some barbecue, meaning just about anything with barbecue sauce on it. The general population doesn't make a distinction between grilling and smoking (or barbecuing). They think of anything with barbecue sauce on it as barbecue.

And...

Is it "barbecue" or "barbeque"? :twisted:

This was my understanding of barbecue growing up in the south suburbs of Chicago. It was either grilling -- always dogs, burgers, or the occasional steak if you were a rich north sider -- or anything that involved barbecue sauce. Don't think I actually experienced barbecue as I now know it until visiting my brother in Mississippi, ordering a pulled pork sandwich, and they asked if I wanted slaw ON it. :shocked: Totally offended my midwestern sensibilities at the time.

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 08:18 PM
Well, to be fair, above the Mason-Dixon Line are the states that aren't known for their barbecue. In fact, in the 1800's, a barbecue above the Mason-Dixon was a strange event that required Southerners to cook it and a lot of explanation in the newspapers for Northerners to understand it. So, I'm thinking that people in the Northern states may not be the best people to go to for a definition of barbecue.

BBQ Bandit
07-23-2014, 08:24 PM
Well, to be fair, above the Mason-Dixon Line are the states that aren't known for their barbecue. In fact, in the 1800's, a barbecue above the Mason-Dixon was a strange event that required Southerners to cook it and a lot of explanation in the newspapers for Northerners to understand it. So, I'm thinking that people in the Northern states may not be the best people to go to for a definition of barbecue.

Harrumf, harrumf, harrumf! (Blazing Saddles mod)

Boshizzle
07-23-2014, 08:30 PM
Harrumf, harrumf, harrumf! (Blazing Saddles mod)

Now, don't get me wrong, PA has had a lot of barbecues and some of them are quite historic including some of the first barbecues to celebrate the adoption of the Declaration of Independence.

Bamabuzzard
07-23-2014, 11:32 PM
Whole hog would like a word with you.

Yeah, that to. My bad. I need to be taken out and publicly flogged.

Beerbecue
07-23-2014, 11:33 PM
Around here whether you're going to a barbecue, or barbecuing dinner or eating barbecue, there's an 80% chance it will be a gas grill. Really.

Bamabuzzard
07-23-2014, 11:33 PM
Chicken? CHICKEN??? :tsk:

I's from MS originally. We luvs us sum chickens.

martyleach
07-23-2014, 11:50 PM
Why is this so difficult? If you put BBQ sauce on it, it is BBQ. If you live in North Carolina and your only meat available is pork, you call that BBQ. Duh!!

Asmodeus
07-24-2014, 12:49 AM
Dang man, this is the worst threads ever - a total waste of time. I mean why do all this work trying to figure it out. Just have a few beers and listen to the video below. :) Just kididng...but do listen. You're probably aware of the song...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ubTQfr_tyY

How can you take anyone seriously who fails to mention Missouri in any discussion of BBQ?

Forget all this prancing around how to define what is BBQ.

Here it is, cheap, tough meat cooked slowly so's to produce a tender succulent flavorful main dish. Old beeves (oxen), whole hogs, shoulders/butts, ribs, briskets, goats, mutton and yes, even chickens, (ever eaten a laying hen or cock that got too old to perform? They can be pretty tough if not cooked slowly.)

Smoke? Yes please, whether it's from fat dripping into the open pit or from wood in a closed or both is irrelevant. Dry rub, wet rub/marinade mop, sauce or not is just as irrelevant to whether it's BBQ or not.

Live fire used to cook cheap, tough meat to perfection is BBQ. Braising, roasting, broiling, grilling, sous vide and crockpottery may make a really good product, it's just not BBQ!

Asmodeus

Asmodeus
07-24-2014, 01:09 AM
Yeah, the meat with BBQ sauce on it being called barbecue is an often heard claim. We have been able to buy "barbecued" rotisserie chickens in my town for as long as I can remember. All they do is pour BBQ sauce over a rotisserie chicken and call it barbecue chicken.

A few years ago a guy on another forum bragged about his "prize winnin' BBQ Rib Recipe"! I carefully pried it out of him.

It started, "Preheat your oven to 475ºF and place your ribs in a pot with a tight fitting lid." He finished his ribs for 15 minutes on his weber to give 'em that smokey flavor and to caramelize the sauce, which couldn't be done any other way.

Another forum poster pointed out that even though he was from Japan, even he knew that wasn't BBQ!

Much hilarity ensued.

Asmodeus

YetiDave
07-24-2014, 03:20 AM
I knew someone who cooked a pork butt in their oven then finished it off on a weber with an hour of smoke..

viking72
07-24-2014, 08:30 AM
Here in nearly Antebellum Tidewater Virginia, you go to a BBQ, that is a whole pig cooked with fire, surrounded by a party. BBQ is pork pulled or minced(slow cooked with wood) with little or no sauce. Sliced BBQ can also be had. Other meats and methods are BBQ ribs, BBQ beef, ect.
Hot dogs, steaks, hamburgers are grilled, when at a party it is a cookout.

Later,
Doug

DaveAlvarado
07-24-2014, 08:43 AM
I knew someone who cooked a pork butt in their oven then finished it off on a weber with an hour of smoke..

That's backwards...

I've finished plenty of Q in my oven, when the weather turned bad or I ran out of charcoal or I had to leave the house for a while and didn't want a fire running. But the smoke goes on *first*, otherwise you get no smoke ring. Everybody knows that.

5string
07-24-2014, 09:12 AM
po-tay-toh, po-tah-toh, tater, spud...

Medicbrewer
07-24-2014, 09:44 AM
It would be like trying to get the folks from Lizella GA to stop using the double negatives; wont happen and only will piss everyone off... But, it doesn't make it correct.

Ya'll ain't never gonna get no Georgian to stop not puttin' in them negatives in them there sentences.

YetiDave
07-24-2014, 09:59 AM
That's backwards...

I've finished plenty of Q in my oven, when the weather turned bad or I ran out of charcoal or I had to leave the house for a while and didn't want a fire running. But the smoke goes on *first*, otherwise you get no smoke ring. Everybody knows that.

You're telling me :shock: you could taste a little smoke but... meh. Didn't work really

deguerre
07-24-2014, 10:02 AM
Some pichers ain't not never need no words.

Did I do good? :-o

FTFY. :thumb:

Well, to be fair, above the Mason-Dixon Line are the states that aren't known for their barbecue. In fact, in the 1800's, a barbecue above the Mason-Dixon was a strange event that required Southerners to cook it and a lot of explanation in the newspapers for Northerners to understand it. So, I'm thinking that people in the Northern states may not be the best people to go to for a definition of barbecue.

Virginians. :tsk: May just as well be Canadian. What do y'all know? :tsk::tsk::tsk:

Ya'll ain't never gonna get no Georgian to stop not puttin' in them negatives in them there sentences.

Y'all gone an' went to the same damn public school I did, ain'tcha? :becky:

Bamabuzzard
07-24-2014, 10:07 AM
Actually, there is correct and there is incorrect, and just because you grew up using it incorrectly doesn't make it defacto correct. For example, it's normal around here to use double negatives to mean a negative. Doesn't make it correct; bad english and bad logic is just that. Luckily we know what is the intent, normally.

I'm trying to follow what you're saying. So you're saying there is a "correct"/absolute definition of barbecue when it is used as a noun?

thunter
07-24-2014, 10:10 AM
I think we need official designations. In my opinion (and no one has paid me a red cent for it, I know! :-D), this is the truth of the whole matter... period... sort of! :-D

BARBECUING
"Barbecue" should be defined as food that has been cooked on a grill or smoker, with charcoal and/or wood. There are two methods of barbecuing food, one is "direct", the other is "indirect".

Now, here is where I know I am going to cause some trouble, and I should just zip it :icon_shy... but I ain't gonna do that! :grin:

GRILLING
"Grilling" should be defined as food that has been cooked on an indoor or outdoor griddle, with propane, or electricity. If wood is used for flavoring, the food should be considered "smoked" or flavored with smoke, but not "barbecued". The "direct" and "indirect" approaches are available for grilling.

Now, exuse me while I slip out the back door before someone beats the chit out of me! :lol: :boxing:

Fwismoker
07-24-2014, 10:27 AM
I refuse to get hung up on semantics..potato po-tat-o....over coals, under coals, distance from coals, indirect, direct, real fire or charcoal.

I just can't include electric and gas cookers in the equation even though they can be made to taste good.

The definition of BBQ is subjective and will never be standardized. JMO


Do i need to say more?

Subway Applewood Pulled Pork Commercial 2014 - YouTube

Bamabuzzard
07-24-2014, 10:40 AM
I refuse to get hung up on semantics..potato po-tat-o....over coals, under coals, distance from coals, indirect, direct, real fire or charcoal.

*I just can't include electric and gas cookers in the equation even though they can be made to taste good.

The definition of BBQ is subjective and will never be standardized. JMO

*Yeah, I'm with you on this one. I just can't bring myself to include them either.

Sevengoals
07-24-2014, 10:45 AM
Somehow I am not surprised this discussion has gone on for 6 pages.

peeps
07-24-2014, 11:00 AM
This discussion hurts my head...

Call it whatever you want. If it is good, I'm gonna eat it. If it sucks, I won't.

Boshizzle
07-24-2014, 12:00 PM
So, generally, many here see a distinction between barbecued meat and barbecue meaning that it is possible to cook meat using the barbecue method and the resulting product may or may not be barbecue.

jham0077
07-24-2014, 01:43 PM
There are several regional dialects in the US that all pronounce the word "OIL" differently. Who is correct?
One of the most profound movie lines of all times described what is going on here. Burt Reynolds to Sally Field in Smokey and the Bandit after discussing what is common knowledge in NY vs GA. "It depends a lot on where you're standing at the time as to how dumb you are."
Is it really that important what we call what, as long as it's good?

I thought that after reading the first page.:clap2: And it's one of my favorite movie lines.

Being from Alabama, barbeque was always pulled pork and a pack of buns. Anything extra was.... what it was, smoked chicken, ribs.
Here in Illinois, it's whatever comes off the grill. Time and temps are irrelevant, sauce or no sauce, it's all "barbecue".

thunter
07-24-2014, 01:51 PM
Barbecue, BBQ, Bar-B-Q... Let's just learn from the master... :laugh::clap2::bow:

http://youtu.be/j4XT-l-_3y0

jham0077
07-24-2014, 02:02 PM
Somehow I am not surprised this discussion has gone on for 6 pages.


Yeah...... There's also a "Name That Wood" thread been going for six pages.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-24-2014, 02:59 PM
Some pichers ain't not never need no words.

Wow, Guer, four negatives. :clap2: You are the master! It took me five minutes to come up with three, which I couldn't, and had to copy the string from brother rookiedad's post. Took a second look at his post and he had the ain't in the front, I couldn't even copy it right! :doh:


The repetition reminds me of French a bit. Like, "Moi, je t'aime". First person ("moi" and "je") is repeated for emphasis.

Boshizzle
07-24-2014, 05:37 PM
Thanks for all the responses. Some were helpful in a direct way and the ones that were way out of scope were helpful in another. Still, there is nothing posted that I believe invalidates the point that you can cook something using the barbecue method and still not necessarily have barbecue when done.

Fwismoker
07-24-2014, 05:52 PM
I liked applejacks as a kid. :biggrin1:

It hurts less thinking about things like that. lol

BBQ Bandit
07-24-2014, 09:46 PM
Thanks for all the responses. Some were helpful in a direct way and the ones that were way out of scope were helpful in another. Still, there is nothing posted that I believe invalidates the point that you can cook something using the barbecue method and still not necessarily have barbecue when done.

The intent becomes both clear and muddy - treating the smoker as a wood-fired oven.

revkab
07-24-2014, 10:09 PM
As far as I can tell, the term 'Barbeque' is entirely parochial, that is, it is entirely dependent on local understandings and tastes. In the Kansas City area (the true BBQ capitol of the world), barbeque is meat of any one of several types, although typically beef or pork, that is well and fully slow-smoked, and most often served with a slightly tangy (but not sickly sweet) tomato based sauce. Pork ribs and brisket rule, but so does pork butt, typically sliced, but often pulled.

In places such as Texas, smoke is still mandatory, but beef rules. One of the Carolinas prefers pulled pork, smoked, with a thin, vinegar based sauce, while the other one prefers the same, but with a mustard based sauce. In places like New York City, BBQ amounts mainly to McRib sandwiches, and some other Yankee places consider BBQ to be anything cooked outside over hot coals.

To me, personally, barbeque means it is well and slowly smoked until it is fully tender, then lightly sauced. Chicken can be smoked, but is not really BBQ, simply smoked chicken, even if it is sauced. And, contrary to BBQ Pitmasters, Prime rib is NEVER smoled, never injected, and never sauced.

drjiveturkey
07-25-2014, 09:04 AM
I'm probably in the minority but I use the term barbecue for the event or the process of cooking outdoors. I rarely use the term barbecue to describe the food itself.

I would welcome my family friends over for a barbecue regardless of what I'm cooking. Then I would follow it up with I'm grilling or smoking x y z

Gore
07-25-2014, 10:38 AM
"There is no hot dog barbecue tradition in the U.S. and never has been. The same is true of hamburgers."

Here is where the problem occurs.........there is the tradition of dawgs & burgers being "barbeque"......not lower heat, indirect, the really good stuff we all know & love, not THE noun you're after, but "A Tradition" just the same......
Not centuries, but decades old, starting just after WWII when the vets came home, bought homes & ended up wanting to DO something with that backyard they now owned......
Now, before propane BBQ's ( noun, the machine itself) became all the rage, there was braziers......open pit, direct heat, sling it on there & hope it didn't burn too bad kinda machines.....the Middle Class then had an 'in' to open fire cooked meat........not just the specialist purveyors from mostly the South.
This was a start of a tradition of many, many more people doing it on their own.......

If you want to place blame on someone for really making this accelerate, call out Geo. Stephens, inventor of
" Covered, damper-controlled cooking.....IF YOU PLEASE !!! "

The Weber.......that really made the faux "burgers & dawgs" tradition skyrocket, he along with contemporaries like Hilton Meigs & a few others made all that available.......to millions of people.......
Sure, it takes (or better yet, steals) the name from the grandfather of the cooking style, imitation being the sincerest form of flattery & all, but in attempting to be helpful, I believe finding where the road farked might help clarify the issue......


Now, it seems unfortunately, I'm a part of the ongoing problem.....

"Now, a brisket cooked to pull tender is barbecued beef and beef barbecue. A tri-tip or bottom round barbecued to medium rare is barbecued beef but we would never call it barbecue."

More than half the time, and being from California, I cook tri-tip to pull tender & while it is barbecued beef and beef barbecue, I call it tri-tip.............


.

Thanks for this response. I know growing up in Arizona it was not unheard-of to have hamburgers served at a BBQ. When I lived in Nova Scotia, BBQ was synonymous with hot dogs and hamburgers. "Pulled pork? Brisket? What the fark is that? This is a BBQ, Get me a hot dog." That is changing now, but traditionally it is burgers and dogs. I just drove through Maine a week ago and I know I saw two signs at fire departments advertising their upcoming BBQ where they were serving hot dogs and hamburgers. This has been going on for decades. And in Maryland itself, which last I checked was south of that Mason-Dixon line, it is not uncommon to have hot dogs and hamburgers at BBQs. I saw a church fundraiser advertising just that for this coming weekend.

I might even suggest that hot-dog and hamburger BBQs are the rule and that pulled pork and brisket are the REGIONAL exceptions.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-25-2014, 10:57 AM
I might even suggest that hot-dog and hamburger BBQs are the rule and that pulled pork and brisket are the REGIONAL exceptions.

You've done the unthinkable…. given a definition 'the majority' understands. I'll use this example in the next discussion here where someone is saying the majority is right….. and the point I'm making is wrong. Thanks, brother. :laugh:

deguerre
07-25-2014, 12:52 PM
It actually is a very good point. I'm surprised it came from Gore, in fact, as it was so good.

Moving right along, I think I'll be educating the masses on how to speak Bubba as a second language. I had a calling.

scrub puller
07-25-2014, 01:49 PM
Yair . . . In Australia "barbecue" is a selection of meats, usually sausages, steak, chops and hamburger patties (along with a pile of sliced onions and maybe some tomato) slowly stewing on a overloaded hot plate.

In my region cooking on wire grille over coals or gas is unheard of and quite rightly the hot plate rules supreme.

I prefer the hot plate myself but it has to be hot and the meat flipped about every thirty seconds.

Folks here do not much like smoke or artificial sauces and I treat my UDS as an outdoor roaster/oven.

When folks come over for a meal of brisket, pulled pork or whatever cooked on the UDS I used to explain that this was US style "barbecue" without the smoke and ketchup and they would just shake their head and look at me real funny.

Cheers.

Gore
07-25-2014, 03:12 PM
It actually is a very good point. I'm surprised it came from Gore, in fact, as it was so good.

Moving right along, I think I'll be educating the masses on how to speak Bubba as a second language. I had a calling.

Seriously? From Gore? Whatever he said, I'm against it. That dude's farked. :tsk:

1buckie
07-25-2014, 04:46 PM
Thanks for this response. I know growing up in Arizona it was not unheard-of to have hamburgers served at a BBQ. When I lived in Nova Scotia, BBQ was synonymous with hot dogs and hamburgers. "Pulled pork? Brisket? What the fark is that? This is a BBQ, Get me a hot dog." That is changing now, but traditionally it is burgers and dogs. I just drove through Maine a week ago and I know I saw two signs at fire departments advertising their upcoming BBQ where they were serving hot dogs and hamburgers. This has been going on for decades. And in Maryland itself, which last I checked was south of that Mason-Dixon line, it is not uncommon to have hot dogs and hamburgers at BBQs. I saw a church fundraiser advertising just that for this coming weekend.

I might even suggest that hot-dog and hamburger BBQs are the rule and that pulled pork and brisket are the REGIONAL exceptions.


Thanks, back.....

I spent some time thinking how to word that.....not here to irritate, argue, disgust or annoy......just that it seems like a bigger picture was possibly in order.....

I really can appreciate all the regional traditions & the rich heritage it brings to our country....and it spills out around the world, too.....people all over just getting excited about "American BBQ"...............

goes to asking "How is a tradition formed?"

Repeated use of a form / format, attended to more & more people, and then passed down thru generations....Virginia pilgrim pig roast, stadium tailgate hotdogs......both fit the criteria for "A Tradition"...............

Boshizzle
07-25-2014, 07:22 PM
I think we have to be careful accepting loose usage of a word. What's to stop us from accepting the BBQ Pitmasters show's often heard declaration that margarine poured from a blue bottle is butter?

"Hey, a lot of people call it butter, so, it must be." I don't think so. Just because a group of people call something what it isn't doesn't make them right.

deguerre
07-25-2014, 07:25 PM
Works in politics though. Repeat a lie often enough and it may as well be gospel.

dummy que
07-25-2014, 11:19 PM
Well, to be fair, above the Mason-Dixon Line are the states that aren't known for their barbecue. In fact, in the 1800's, a barbecue above the Mason-Dixon was a strange event that required Southerners to cook it and a lot of explanation in the newspapers for Northerners to understand it. So, I'm thinking that people in the Northern states may not be the best people to go to for a definition of barbecue.
acording to WEBSTER`S 11NEW COLLEGE DICTIONARY Barbecue1.a grill ,pit,or outdoor fireplace for roasting meat 2. a whole anamal carcass or section thereof roasted or broiled over an open fire or on a spit b. A usu. outdoor social gathering at which food is prepared in this way-vt. cued. -cu.ing.-cues. to roast,broil, or grill meat over live coals or open fire. As one of those lucky enof to be born in the B.B.Q. center of the known universe as a child a bbq was hotdogs and hambergers not untill my first trip to STARK,FLA. did i get to taste real bbq (sonnys) a true passion was born it`s fairly clear that those who live in the carolinas think that they and they alone know jack about our art form (yes it is a art not a science) there are lots of different types of bbq as for us yankey`s not knowing dick about bbq i am no longer aloud to come to stark without my LANG and a cooler of pork and beef

Lake Dogs
07-26-2014, 09:23 AM
I'm trying to follow what you're saying. So you're saying there is a "correct"/absolute definition of barbecue when it is used as a noun?

Getting right back to boshizzle's original statement and point, and very respectfully, yes.

bbqing and grilling aren't the same. a car is not a truck. both are automobiles, but not the same thing. bbqing and grilling are cooking, but they are not the same. just because someone calls your F150 a car doesnt make it a car. just because someone calls my weber genesis gasser a smoker, doesnt make it a smoker.

1buckie
07-26-2014, 09:43 AM
Hopefully the additions I've made to the disscussion are clear....they are separate traditions.....one is barbeque, one is not.....but both are traditions......

I cook on Webers, some of it's BBQ, some not.....some folks say "that's not a pit !!!" & for those folks I have to lite 6 or 8 of them & get up to the square area definition of a "pit", I guess..............

I agree whole-heartedly of the definition of BBQ, as presented...it's the goods !!!!!

Boshizzle
07-26-2014, 09:42 PM
Thanks all for the great comments! Your input will be reflected in a larger discussion soon. I don't expect everyone to agree with my conclusions, we are talking about BBQ after all, but I hope to reflect a wide array of views.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 12:15 AM
Which came first -- the loose usage of the word barbecue throughout the majority/world, or the tight usage of the word barbecue that we associate with the southern US? I wonder if tight definitions fit "American Barbecue" or "Southern US Barbecue" better than they seem to be fitting the more general word "barbecue". Could specifying what you are defining off the bat be a way to turn this uphill battle into a level ground battle? Maybe further specify "Alabama Barbecue" or "Texas Barbecue", etc., if you can't get a quorum across the US for your definition?


Just had a thought. Are we really asking who owns the word barbecue?

Gore
07-27-2014, 05:02 AM
Just had a thought. Are we really asking who owns the word barbecue?

Why yes, that is exactly what we're asking. I think we're going for a trademark, so we can control its usage. We will form a committee for the usage of the word "barbecue" to keep the word pure, much like the one the one they have in France to keep the French language pure. I'm really curious what that definition will be. The only thing certain is that I'll be banned for my hot-dog comment. I did have BBQ in Siberia and it wasn't so bad, marinated meat on a stick.

Rob96
07-27-2014, 05:11 AM
Oi, I'm from the NE and BBQ originally was a an adjective to describe a gathering with the food cooked on the grill. It also was applied to things like hamburger bbq or what others would call a sloppy joe. You can also do this beef, turkey and pork.

Now a days with the all of the BBQ shows on TV, BBQ is now shifting to low and slow. People are buying smokers of all types, roadside stands are popping up and so forth. As for BBQ styles, you will find a mix: Carolina, Kansas City, Memphis and so forth, no one style is a lock. Its just funny now seeing grocery stores with sections in the meat case for brisket, pork shoulder and stocking whole turkeys all year.

viking72
07-27-2014, 06:59 AM
So, generally, many here see a distinction between barbecued meat and barbecue meaning that it is possible to cook meat using the barbecue method and the resulting product may or may not be barbecue.
Not barbecue,but cooked with the BBQ method.
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/10552511_659304414164099_9062381604081179980_n.jpg
Later,
Doug

Lake Dogs
07-27-2014, 09:21 AM
Which came first -- the loose usage of the word barbecue throughout the majority/world, or the tight usage of the word barbecue that we associate with the southern US? I wonder if tight definitions fit "American Barbecue" or "Southern US Barbecue" better than they seem to be fitting the more general word "barbecue". Could specifying what you are defining off the bat be a way to turn this uphill battle into a level ground battle? Maybe further specify "Alabama Barbecue" or "Texas Barbecue", etc., if you can't get a quorum across the US for your definition?

Just had a thought. Are we really asking who owns the word barbecue?

> Which came first -- the loose usage ofor the tight usage of the word barbecue that we associate with the southern US?

Barbecue (the word and its original definition) comes from barbacoa, 1600's I think. I suggest that it came first. From pictures and newspaper articles and references in books, I dont know the precise moment, but I'm sure it's in the 1900's, probably in the 1930's and certainly by the 1950's, the word had been mis-used enough across the country to mean grilling and/or a cookout.

Lake Dogs
07-27-2014, 09:25 AM
Not barbecue,but cooked with the BBQ method.
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/10552511_659304414164099_9062381604081179980_n.jpg
Later,
Doug

ABSOLUTELY!!! And we dont call it a Pig Pickin'. :-)

Very nice (above).

Boshizzle
07-27-2014, 09:41 AM
Just had a thought. Are we really asking who owns the word barbecue?

It seems some people are and those people seem to want to call anything cooked on a grill barbecue. In that world, the word barbecue is meaningless and elevates Hardees and Burger King to the status of barbecue restaurants. They serve "barbecued" hamburgers.

The truth of the matter is, there is a distinct, well defined cooking method known as barbecuing and there is a distinct, well defined food that is barbecue. The same is true of butter and ice cream. In fact, they are so well defined that the U.S. government has had regulations for about 100 years on what can and can't be sold as butter, ice cream, and barbecue.

It's against federal law to sell a grilled hot dog and call it barbecue, BTW. The same for marinated meat that has been grilled or even a prime rib roasted barbecued to a perfect medium rare.

deguerre
07-27-2014, 10:02 AM
BUT! Do the Feds consider low roasted smoked chicken as Barbecue??? DO THEY?????

Lake Dogs
07-27-2014, 10:09 AM
BUT! Do the Feds consider low roasted smoked chicken as Barbecue??? DO THEY?????

Should we define chicken?

:heh:

deguerre
07-27-2014, 10:22 AM
No. You'll post a pic of me in the comp forum...

Boshizzle
07-27-2014, 10:38 AM
BUT! Do the Feds consider low roasted smoked chicken as Barbecue??? DO THEY?????

They might. It is the government, after all. Ketchup is a serving of veggies too. :laugh:

deguerre
07-27-2014, 10:50 AM
All kidding aside, this HAS been a very informative and entertainingly engaging thread you started, Joe. :thumb:

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 11:10 AM
It's against federal law to sell a grilled hot dog and call it barbecue, BTW. The same for marinated meat that has been grilled or even a prime rib roasted barbecued to a perfect medium rare.

That explains the passion in this argument. Tight control of the word is important to many in the US and looks like it starts at the top.

deguerre
07-27-2014, 11:20 AM
Yep. And California can't call their sparkling wine Champagne either. But I do. Another generic term usage.

1buckie
07-27-2014, 12:27 PM
BUT! Do the Feds consider low roasted smoked chicken as Barbecue??? DO THEY?????

could it be, like me, possible that you have "chicken issues".....or at least BBQ'ed chicken issues?

Boshizzle
07-27-2014, 01:01 PM
That explains the passion in this argument. Tight control of the word is important to many in the US and looks like it starts at the top.

The laws were established because of fraud. Some places were selling frozen "custard" that didn't have eggs in it. Some were selling ice "cream" that didn't have cream in it and some were selling "barbecue" they cooked in a crock pot with liquid smoke. Some probably are still selling those things with fraudulent labels. I do know that when it comes to the government's attention that such practices are occurring it will step in and demand corrections to the labels or claims.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 01:25 PM
There is a lot of ice cream being sold that doesn't have cream in it and hasn't for a long time. I vote against that with grocery dollars. Hey, I just discovered this Canadian is as passionate about ice cream as her American friends are passionate about the definition of barbecue. :laugh: :laugh:

Lake Dogs
07-27-2014, 01:46 PM
Some of us are passionate about it because it's part of our heritage. I certainly fit in this a little.

Others of us just are anal-retentive on the misuse of terms; I DO fit this. The double-negatives used around here regularly drive me bonkers.

I did learn something on BBQ-Pitmasters this year though. Apparently my state BBQ's salmon! Of course, salmon aren't from here. When we cook it, it's most often grilled list most other fish or chicken that we put on a grill... But it's certainly not a Georgia "tradition". I can't believe Myron said that with a straight face. Honestly, I wonder how many takes that had to have before he was able to do it...

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 02:46 PM
We're a funny lot. :laugh:

deguerre
07-27-2014, 03:33 PM
Some of us are passionate about it because it's part of our heritage. I certainly fit in this a little.

Others of us just are anal-retentive on the misuse of terms; I DO fit this. The double-negatives used around here regularly drive me bonkers.

I did learn something on BBQ-Pitmasters this year though. Apparently my state BBQ's salmon! Of course, salmon aren't from here. When we cook it, it's most often grilled list most other fish or chicken that we put on a grill... But it's certainly not a Georgia "tradition". I can't believe Myron said that with a straight face. Honestly, I wonder how many takes that had to have before he was able to do it...

Now let me see if I'm correctly following you. You were born in Alabama, Tuscaloosa in fact (The known center of the Universe). You have a heavy Louisiana AND a Cajun influence in your background. You have lived in Georgia for God knows how long, yet you persist in disclaiming, nay, are defiantly opposed to the very idea of, your own native tongue? You ain't no Surn'r I never hear'd of. :tsk:

























You do talk purty though.

krshome
07-27-2014, 03:35 PM
This cracks me up! I was born and raised in NJ where anything cooked on your gas grill is called BBQ. When I first moved to VA I taught that what I had been doing my whole life was grilling not BBQ-ing. Now if I cook it on my UDS its BBQ whatever it is.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 05:00 PM
The double-negatives used around here regularly drive me bonkers.


Now let me see if I'm correctly following you. You were born in Alabama, Tuscaloosa in fact (The known center of the Universe). You have a heavy Louisiana AND a Cajun influence in your background. You have lived in Georgia for God knows how long, yet you persist in disclaiming, nay, are defiantly opposed to the very idea of, your own native tongue? You ain't no Surn'r I never hear'd of. :tsk:


You do talk purty though.

At the risk of giving Deguerre a sure fire way to drive me bonkers, but to show my brotherhood (etc.) with you, Lake Dogs, I will right here and right now admit that an apostrophe used in plural, not possession, gets to me.

I had a cardboard box of teas I bought on sale and Carol wrote "tea's" on it. :mmph: She's a farker, alright.

Butcha know, getting this off my chest suddenly made it that less annoying. Dang, learnin' chit again on this forum. :becky:

deguerre
07-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Peeves is it? Mine is subject verb agreement. :becky:

Also, all of the double negatives I may post are deliberately typed. The incorrect apostrophe every now and then however could be a mistake, but I'll never let Kathleen know.

Kathy's Smokin'
07-27-2014, 05:24 PM
:laugh:

And I'll never let Deguerre know the space I edited out of his post when I quoted it was thrown into his inbox because it's full again! :rolleyes:

SmokinIllini
07-27-2014, 07:01 PM
It seems some people are and those people seem to want to call anything cooked on a grill barbecue. In that world, the word barbecue is meaningless and elevates Hardees and Burger King to the status of barbecue restaurants. They serve "barbecued" hamburgers.

The truth of the matter is, there is a distinct, well defined cooking method known as barbecuing and there is a distinct, well defined food that is barbecue. The same is true of butter and ice cream. In fact, they are so well defined that the U.S. government has had regulations for about 100 years on what can and can't be sold as butter, ice cream, and barbecue.

It's against federal law to sell a grilled hot dog and call it barbecue, BTW. The same for marinated meat that has been grilled or even a prime rib roasted barbecued to a perfect medium rare.

Happen to be in Suburban Chicago and out with the in-laws when I spy this. Didn't ask, but can pretty well guarantee you this is probably yesterday's Italian beef in barbecue sauce. Are you saying I found a hotbed of illegal faux Q?


http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag211/SmokinIllini/401024D2-F478-4AD3-AA8E-FD5EF6F7AF01_zps0hiseakc.jpg

Lake Dogs
07-27-2014, 07:33 PM
You do talk purty though.

Banjo music.... Anyone else hear that in the distance? Definitely, banjo music...

Boshizzle
07-27-2014, 07:42 PM
Happen to be in Suburban Chicago and out with the in-laws when I spy this. Didn't ask, but can pretty well guarantee you this is probably yesterday's Italian beef in barbecue sauce. Are you saying I found a hotbed of illegal faux Q?


http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag211/SmokinIllini/401024D2-F478-4AD3-AA8E-FD5EF6F7AF01_zps0hiseakc.jpg

If that's so, don't let the Department of Agriculture hear about it. They have gone after several for that kind of thing.

deguerre
07-28-2014, 05:08 AM
Banjo music.... Anyone else hear that in the distance? Definitely, banjo music...

Now you're just being a Dickey. :becky:






































Hey! He was from Georgia...

Gore
07-28-2014, 05:27 AM
I did learn something on BBQ-Pitmasters this year though. Apparently my state BBQ's salmon! Of course, salmon aren't from here. When we cook it, it's most often grilled list most other fish or chicken that we put on a grill... But it's certainly not a Georgia "tradition". I can't believe Myron said that with a straight face. Honestly, I wonder how many takes that had to have before he was able to do it...

That's not so bad. The state BBQ from Maryland is the hot dog, apparently, and if I'm reading things right, the state BBQ from Canada [sic] is ice cream.

Incidentally, I read on some website, not from Myron, that salmon was your state BBQ. Now, I've hardly spent more than a few days there, so I'm no expert, but I knew that I shouldn't read any further and went to a different website.

Boshizzle
07-31-2014, 07:56 PM
Found this in an old 1950's newspaper about backyard grilling. And people nowadays worry about cancer from charcoal. What you don't know just may be able to hurt you, apparently. Thank goodness for silicon and nitrile and PVC. Now that I've written that, in 50 years someone will dig up this post and make fun of those kinds of gloves in a horrified sort of way. :lol:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i136/ocbarbecue/AsbestosGloves_zps70a88039.jpg

revkab
08-01-2014, 08:20 AM
Yeah - that's like saying KC Masterpiece and Sweet Baby Ray's sauces are genuinely representative of Kansas City style BBQ sauce. Not to mention when BBQ Pitmasters did the inspected, injected, rubbed, smoked, and sauced Prime Rib as part of their KC style episode. We dumb hicks here in Kansas and Kansas City area never heard of such a thing! :mad2:

That's not so bad. The state BBQ from Maryland is the hot dog, apparently, and if I'm reading things right, the state BBQ from Canada [sic] is ice cream.

Incidentally, I read on some website, not from Myron, that salmon was your state BBQ. Now, I've hardly spent more than a few days there, so I'm no expert, but I knew that I shouldn't read any further and went to a different website.

Quoted from Lakedog:
Some of us are passionate about it because it's part of our heritage. I certainly fit in this a little.

Others of us just are anal-retentive on the misuse of terms; I DO fit this. The double-negatives used around here regularly drive me bonkers.

I did learn something on BBQ-Pitmasters this year though. Apparently my state BBQ's salmon! Of course, salmon aren't from here. When we cook it, it's most often grilled list most other fish or chicken that we put on a grill... But it's certainly not a Georgia "tradition". I can't believe Myron said that with a straight face. Honestly, I wonder how many takes that had to have before he was able to do it...
__________________
Hance - Lake Dogs Cooking Team - MiM/MBN/GBA CBJ and comp cook

Kathy's Smokin'
08-01-2014, 09:36 AM
I know what I've bought in grocery stores that said it was "Kansas City BBQ Sauce", they are typically very dark, very smoky, medium sweet, tomato base sauces. What is genuine Kansas City Style BBQ Sauce supposed to be like? Any brand names you can post to google or watch for when I'm in stores?

Gore
08-01-2014, 09:43 AM
Sounds like Kathy wants to put some BBQ sauce on her ice cream and have her BBQ Kansas-city style.

Kathy's Smokin'
08-01-2014, 10:02 AM
:pound:

Wow, genuine Kansas City BBQ! :clap2:

http://i.cubeupload.com/UcXvJd.jpeg (http://cubeupload.com/im/UcXvJd.jpeg)

Gore
08-01-2014, 10:09 AM
Some thin strips of smoked salmon would give it a nice Georgian fusion. :thumb:

Kathy's Smokin'
08-01-2014, 11:10 AM
You're going to get this thread kicked into the Woodpile, my brother. :heh: