Poll: Do you consider TQ cheating on smoke ring?

[Fwismoker]

Adding sodium nitrates/ nitrites to meat will help create a faux smoke ring...which is of course science. Regardless of whether you think it's necessary right or wrong do you consider it cheating?

http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Cheaters-Guide-To-BBQ-Smoke-Rings&id=7408396

We eat with our eyes first don't we? Most people looking at a piece of meat with a nice smoke ring will assume it came from you doing an outstanding job of smoking it and preparing it without adding outside natural chemicals/ ingredients to achieve it.


Edit: What is considered cheating? In this definition I'd say cheating is creating a faux enhanced smoke ring using TQ instead of relying on your pit skills and smoker.

[VanBo BBQ]

Is this something common? Do the chemicals fark up the taste?

[Fwismoker]

Is this something common? Do the chemicals fark up the taste?

No It's not common nor does it affect the taste i think. Is it necessary and kind of silly? Yes i think so.

[darkoozy]

I eat what tastes good...smoke ring or not...I dont believe in adding chemicals to produce a fake smoke ring...

For me, regardless the smoker I use, I get a smoke ring when the meat is cold out of the fridge. If its at room temperature I barely get a smoke ring...Tastes the same...

[Grimm5577]

thats how you get a smoke ring using electric smoker. :)

[sliding_billy]

We eat with our eyes, and there are plenty of things that we do to food that have nothing to do with how it tastes (lollipop chicken comes to mind). A smoke ring is no different. If you like how it looks, then have fun with it.

[Hawg Father of Seoul]

Who can't get a smoke ring without TQ?

[smoke ninja]

Sure it's cheating but the ninja in me says cheat to win.

[aawa]

I personally don't care if the meat has a smoke ring or not. I also haven't ever had an issue with my mini, kettles, or uds with getting a smoke ring with any rub I have made or bought.

I do know though that natural ingredients can help with the formation of a smoke ring. Items like a higher salt content, apple juice/apple cider vinegar based injections, or any food that contains nitrates/nitrites and phospates help with smoke ring.

And that being said, saying using tenderquick or celery seed to help form the smoke ring is cheating is like saying anything in molecular gastronomy is cheating. There are different techniques to get the desired end result. Is it cheating? Nope. It is just another tool in the tool box that you can wield to get the desired result you want.

[Fwismoker]

We eat with our eyes, and there are plenty of things that we do to food that have nothing to do with how it tastes (lollipop chicken comes to mind). A smoke ring is no different. If you like how it looks, then have fun with it. I completely agree with that Billy...we eat with our eyes first.

Then there is the side of me that says if someone can't get one then they should work on their bbq skills before resorting to a chemical so i can't put it in the same category as say lollipopping. I would guess that you wouldn't even consider adding TQ or the like to your meat... I'm not wrong am I?

[aawa]

I completely agree with that Billy...we eat with our eyes first.

Then there is the side of me that says if someone can't get one then they should work on their bbq skills before resorting to a chemical so i can't put it in the same category as say lollipopping. I would guess that you wouldn't even consider adding TQ or the like to your meat... I'm not wrong am I?

I have a question to you then.

We all know that the traditional method to make ice cream is by slowly churning it so that the ice crystals break up and you get a nice creamy consistency. What do you think about one of the trends with ice cream making in restaurants by using a hobart machine to stir the ice cream around while pouring liquid nitrogen into it to freeze it. The hobart mixes it fast enough so the ice crystals are broken up and you still get a nice creamy consistency, and you make ice cream in minutes vs a few hours.

They are adding a chemical to get the desired result they would want correct. Would you call that cheating or using a different technique to get the same end result?

[Pitmaster T]

First I wrote this:

I think we would all like to see the logic behind comparing tender quick to celery seed.

Then I actually decided to put my piece in:


Prague powder #1 and Instacure 1 - 1 part sodium nitrite and 16 parts salt.

I use 1 level teaspoon of cure for every 5 lb. of meat. Used for non-freeze or non-refrigerator recipes such as smoking, air drying, dehumidifying, etc. AKA Curing Salt.

Is this Cheating?????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????


Prague powder #2 and Instacure 2 - 1 oz of Sodium Nitrite (6.25 %) along with .64 oz oz Sodium Nitrate (4 %) to 1 lb of salt. mainly used for products that will be air cured for long time like: Country Ham, salami, pepperoni, and other dry sausages.

Is this cheating?????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????


Note: The Curing Salts above contain FDA approved red coloring agent that gives them a slight pink color thus eliminating any possible confusion with common salt. THIS MEANS THE SALTS ARE RED/PINK THEMSELVES.

Morton's Tender Quick is a mixture of salt, 2 DIFFERENT PERCENTAGES OF sodium nitrite, and sugar. You normally use 1 level tablespoon of cure for 1 lb. of meat.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo is this cheating?????


So... the real question is................

Why are we comparing TQ to celery seed?


PS, I never ask questions I don't already know the answer to.

[Pitmaster T]

i have a question to you then.

We all know that the traditional method to make ice cream is by slowly churning it so that the ice crystals break up and you get a nice creamy consistency. What do you think about one of the trends with ice cream making in restaurants by using a hobart machine to stir the ice cream around while pouring liquid nitrogen into it to freeze it. The hobart mixes it fast enough so the ice crystals are broken up and you still get a nice creamy consistency, and you make ice cream in minutes vs a few hours.

They are adding a chemical to get the desired result they would want correct. Would you call that cheating or using a different technique to get the same end result?

sELL ME ON THIS ONE

Hmmm Chemicals.... chemicals.....hmmmm

http://www.smileyme.com/school_supplies/charts/charts_educational_learning_tools/charts_periodic_element_rainbow.gif

[Fwismoker]

I have a question to you then.

We all know that the traditional method to make ice cream is by slowly churning it so that the ice crystals break up and you get a nice creamy consistency. What do you think about one of the trends with ice cream making in restaurants by using a hobart machine to stir the ice cream around while pouring liquid nitrogen into it to freeze it. The hobart mixes it fast enough so the ice crystals are broken up and you still get a nice creamy consistency, and you make ice cream in minutes vs a few hours.

They are adding a chemical to get the desired result they would want correct. Would you call that cheating or using a different technique to get the same end result?

Aawa I can't speak for ice cream. For BBQ typically most relate real smoke to the formation to a smoke ring don't they? From what I've read a good smoke ring is a indicative to taking pride in your product and the fire you used to make it.

If someone wants to fake it imo more power to them but I don't think it's authentic in the normal sense of the word.

[Shagdog]

Is wrapping ribs or a butt or a brisket cheating to get a specific color ? Its not how it would happen normally. You are stopping the crust from naturally getting darker, aren't you?


I don't understand this poll. One place it says TQ, one place it says Nitrites/nitrates. Although those things are in TQ, they are also in many other things.

Like your Island spice rubs you just got. I checked a few of those, and they all contain celery or celery salt... So.... You are adding Nitrites to your meat.

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/jerkseasoning.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/all-purpose-8oz.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/chicken-spice-8oz.html

In the thread that this came out of, there was only one mention ever of TQ, and it was a quote from another forum. Most discussion was on celery salt if anything at all, and you came out against it, but the funny thing is, you use it and call it natural just because you aren't intentionally doing it. Most over the counter spices are going to have some level of nitrite in them. Big deal.

[Pitmaster T]

I agree FWI.... there is a nuance to it as well.... for instance.............one time I made like 12 incredible briskets smokes in a row.... all with incredible smoke rings... then.... that stark ring was gone..........

why? I made a batch of dirty dalmatian with sea salts and forgot about it.

[Pitmaster T]

Is wrapping ribs or a butt or a brisket cheating to get a specific color ? Its not how it would happen normally. You are stopping the crust from naturally getting darker, aren't you?


I don't understand this poll. One place it says TQ, one place it says Nitrites/nitrates. Although those things are in TQ, they are also in many other things.

Like your Island spice rubs you just got. I checked a few of those, and they all contain celery or celery salt... So.... You are adding Nitrites to your meat.

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/jerkseasoning.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/all-purpose-8oz.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/chicken-spice-8oz.html

In the thread that this came out of, there was only one mention ever of TQ, and it was a quote from another forum. Most discussion was on celery salt if anything at all, and you came out against it, but the funny thing is, you use it and call it natural just because you aren't intentionally doing it. Most over the counter spices are going to have some level of nitrite in them. Big deal.

There is only Don Cornelius in my rub.... not celery seed. LOL

[dpuryear]

Back to the question of "cheating" - cheating at what? If you're refering to comps, it's legal in KCBS, but they instruct judges not to consider the smoke ring in judging because it can be chemically produced and has nothing to do with the flavor. If you're not considering comps, who cares? Cook what you like, how you like, and let the results speak for themselves.

[ButtBurner]

Is wrapping ribs or a butt or a brisket cheating to get a specific color ? Its not how it would happen normally. You are stopping the crust from naturally getting darker, aren't you?


I don't understand this poll. One place it says TQ, one place it says Nitrites/nitrates. Although those things are in TQ, they are also in many other things.

Like your Island spice rubs you just got. I checked a few of those, and they all contain celery or celery salt... So.... You are adding Nitrites to your meat.

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/jerkseasoning.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/all-purpose-8oz.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/chicken-spice-8oz.html

In the thread that this came out of, there was only one mention ever of TQ, and it was a quote from another forum. Most discussion was on celery salt if anything at all, and you came out against it, but the funny thing is, you use it and call it natural just because you aren't intentionally doing it. Most over the counter spices are going to have some level of nitrite in them. Big deal.

agreed

not voting

[deepsouth]

i'm still trying to figure out how something is smoked and comes out without a smoke ring. heck, i even get a "smoke ring" on my tri-tip sometimes when i give it a reverse sear.

[Fwismoker]

Is wrapping ribs or a butt or a brisket cheating to get a specific color ? Its not how it would happen normally. You are stopping the crust from naturally getting darker, aren't you?


I don't understand this poll. One place it says TQ, one place it says Nitrites/nitrates. Although those things are in TQ, they are also in many other things.

Like your Island spice rubs you just got. I checked a few of those, and they all contain celery or celery salt... So.... You are adding Nitrites to your meat.

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/jerkseasoning.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/all-purpose-8oz.html

http://islandspice.com/spices/dry-spice/chicken-spice-8oz.html

In the thread that this came out of, there was only one mention ever of TQ, and it was a quote from another forum. Most discussion was on celery salt if anything at all, and you came out against it, but the funny thing is, you use it and call it natural just because you aren't intentionally doing it. Most over the counter spices are going to have some level of nitrite in them. Big deal.

You'll love those rubs i think. Celery and celery salt are two different things but i could be wrong. What the poll was meant to be asking is other than normal and natural seasonings you'll find in many rubs do most consider TQ added (which is typically done not as a seasoning but intended for a faux SR) cheating or not.
I really don't think Island spice added celery for intention of adding nitrites but rather to enhance flavor.

Again TQ isn't a flavor enhancer ......don't think anyways.

[Shagdog]

So, If I use something that uses celery seed or salt for flavor its ok, but if use it for a smoke ring I'm "cheating"? And what the hell am I cheating on? I hope I don't get caught, I wanna eat that dinner. Wouldn't want the food cops to confiscate it. And TQ is is 99% salt and sugar, .5% sodium Nitrite and .5% Nitrate. Are Sugar and salt considered flavor enhancers?

[Fwismoker]

So, If I use something that uses celery seed or salt for flavor its ok, but if use it for a smoke ring I'm "cheating"? And what the hell am I cheating on? I hope I don't get caught, I wanna eat that dinner. Wouldn't want the food cops to confiscate it. And TQ is is 99% salt and sugar, .5% sodium Nitrite and .5% Nitrate. Are Sugar and salt considered flavor enhancers?


Everyone has their own opinion. So far it looks like the majority consider it cheating anyways. No big deal either way. That's the purpose of these polls, to see where people are on a subject.

[sliding_billy]

I completely agree with that Billy...we eat with our eyes first.

Then there is the side of me that says if someone can't get one then they should work on their bbq skills before resorting to a chemical so i can't put it in the same category as say lollipopping. I would guess that you wouldn't even consider adding TQ or the like to your meat... I'm not wrong am I?

I do not add TQ (except occasionally to things that I actually want that specific sugar/salt mix), but at the same time I am not bothered if somebody else does. I have no issues getting a good smoke ring without it. I do occasionally cook on my electric smoker, and I could care less if the ring is there or not. Sometimes I get a surprising amount though. As for working on the skills... that is my point. I'd rather see folks put time and effort into things that matter instead of chasing a ghost. If they are adding a smoke ring to a crap product, then that is just stupid. If the ring makes a quality product even more impressive, so be it. It is like the argument of cooking for judges or cooking for eating. Do what your audience wants even if your audience is just you.

[oifmarine2003]

So far it looks like the majority consider it cheating anyways. .


Others have asked but it still hasn't been answered. So, I will ask it again: Cheating at what?

[BobBrisket]

Scrubbed! Keep it on topic!

[The_Kapn]

This is posted in Q-Talk, so no way to "cheat" on Recreational BBQ 8)

Whatever the cook wants is fine with me.

TIM

[Shagdog]

Everyone has their own opinion. So far it looks like the majority consider it cheating anyways. No big deal either way. That's the purpose of these polls, to see where people are on a subject.


The majority? There are 2873 users online and you have 18 votes.

Look, I don't even have any TQ, and I have never bought it in my life. I honestly don't worry much about getting a smoke ring. That being said, I don't see what difference any of this makes. Its just an ingredient, a cooking technique. Who cares? If the person eating it is satisfied, why do you care?

[buccaneer]

Manipulating a result to support your own point of view by posting a poll with a post directly under it with an opinion influencing the result kinda insults the intelligence of anyone bothering to think about it.

Adding sodium nitrates/ nitrites to meat will help create a faux smoke ring...which is of course science. Regardless of whether you think it's necessary right or wrong do you consider it cheating?

http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Cheaters-Guide-To-BBQ-Smoke-Rings&id=7408396
An Article to influence the outcome with no articles on the opposing viewpoint
We eat with our eyes first don't we? Most people looking at a piece of meat with a nice smoke ring will assume it came from you doing an outstanding job of smoking it and preparing it without adding outside natural chemicals/ ingredients to achieve it.

[deepsouth]

would this be a good time/place to ask what tender quick is?

meat tenderizer?

[AClarke44]

I think the man only used the word "cheating" because of the words used in the title of the article in the link he referred to. I'm fairly new here but boy I can tell some of you take your BBQ serious. If I'm reading correctly he just wanted opinions on if anyone of the Brethren used this method to achieve a smoke ring. He obviously does not but I didn't get the impression that he was out to insult anyone who did.
My opinion on the matter is do what you want. I prefer to go for taste. If I put something on my meat that makes it taste better :mrgreen: that's all I care about. If I get a better smoke ring even better! If not, the way I see it once the meat is eaten the smoke ring is gone anyway :wink:

[IamMadMan]

I would say that there is some type of theory that it is wrong to use TQ to get a faux smoke ring, as smoke rings are no longer a judging criteria in competitions because of this practice.

Smoke rings are like orgasms, they can be faked, but they are far from the real experience...

One can also cook pork in a crockpot and add liquid smoke, but if that's what one prefers, you can't change the mentality of someone who enjoys that.

Adding sodium nitrates/ nitrites to meat will help create a faux smoke ring...which is of course science. Regardless of whether you think it's necessary right or wrong do you consider it cheating?

It can't be considered cheating if it isn't criteria for judging, maybe a word like acceptable is more suitable for the question, as most associate cheating with an act of judging or grading. However if the smoke ring is that important to you and you can't produce one naturally, have at it. If it were me, I'd rather refine my method and get the real thing rather than fake it.





..

[Jorge]

would this be a good time/place to ask what tender quick is?

meat tenderizer?

It's a curing agent.

[Fwismoker]

The majority? There are 2873 users online and you have 18 votes.

Look, I don't even have any TQ, and I have never bought it in my life. I honestly don't worry much about getting a smoke ring. That being said, I don't see what difference any of this makes. Its just an ingredient, a cooking technique. Who cares? If the person eating it is satisfied, why do you care?

Ok we'll bump the poll until all 2873 vote. :biggrin1: LOL...kidding of course but if you think most people do then great, i don't. I'm sure this won't be the last time we'll disagree.

[buccaneer]

I think the man only used the word "cheating" because of the words used in the title of the article in the link he referred to. I'm fairly new here but boy I can tell some of you take your BBQ serious. If I'm reading correctly he just wanted opinions on if anyone of the Brethren used this method to achieve a smoke ring. He obviously does not but I didn't get the impression that he was out to insult anyone who did.
My opinion on the matter is do what you want. I prefer to go for taste. If I put something on my meat that makes it taste better :mrgreen: that's all I care about. If I get a better smoke ring even better! If not, the way I see it once the meat is eaten the smoke ring is gone anyway :wink:

Actually, insulting is exactly what he did and why so many are posting in this thread. Some guy posts asking for help to acheive a result.
How he was treated I will leave to you to judge.
Please read the link
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192085

[BobBrisket]

Adding sodium nitrates/ nitrites to meat will help create a faux smoke ring...which is of course science. Regardless of whether you think it's necessary right or wrong do you consider it cheating?

http://ezinearticles.com/?A-Cheaters-Guide-To-BBQ-Smoke-Rings&id=7408396

We eat with our eyes first don't we? Most people looking at a piece of meat with a nice smoke ring will assume it came from you doing an outstanding job of smoking it and preparing it without adding outside natural chemicals/ ingredients to achieve it.

This is posted in Q-Talk, so no way to "cheat" on Recreational BBQ 8)

Whatever the cook wants is fine with me.

TIM

Tim, great point you brought up. This topic really belongs in the Comp Forum. You'd get a whole different reaction there. Recreational Q and Comp Q are two different animals.

On an extended Mod note, some of you enjoy yanking each others chains in a passive/aggressive manner. Doing that created work for us. We don't appreciate that. If you want to take shots at each other, go right ahead.....via PM's. Spare us and the extended membership the additional drama.

[Ron_L]

I didn't vote because...

1. it's their food, and so far I haven't found anyone enforcing rules about how I cook in my back yard, so what are they cheating at?

2. As long as they aren't trying to force me to use TQ, or MSG, or foil, or cook with the fat cap up, etc, I don't care. We are all free to cook the way we want and use whatever tools we feel necessary, and TQ is a tool just like MSG, foil, etc.

[Pitmaster T]

I voted its cheating. And it is. Because all polls I assume are asking how people conduct themselves in their own backyard or bedrooms ---- and as everyone knows... no matter where you are.... you must operate under my rules. So anyone caught using TQ or Paul Kirk's rub is cheating no matter where they are.

I wonder if anyone will get the funny in the Paul Kirk rub statement.

[Will work for bbq]

IMHO It is cheating if you use it in a smoke ring contest that specifically bans the use of sodium nitrates/nitrites. Otherwise I say use what you want if it tastes good, looks good and it isn't gonna kill ya who's to say your cheating.



I use TQ for my pastrami dry rub, is that cheating?

[Fwismoker]

This poll wasn't meant as a what is right or what is wrong...or whether TQ is a tool in the BBQ chest but only if people consider it faux or cheating. There's evidently strong opinions on both sides on this but the intention was only to ask if the TQ smoke ring is considered fake or not.

[Ron_L]

I voted its cheating. And it is. Because all polls I assume are asking how people conduct themselves in their own backyard or bedrooms ---- and as everyone knows... no matter where you are.... you must operate under my rules. So anyone caught using TQ or Paul Kirk's rub is cheating no matter where they are.

I wonder if anyone will get the funny in the Paul Kirk rub statement.

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm heading to the pantry to search for any Paul Kirk rubs now :becky:

and no, I don't think I got it, but I'm out of touch with reality a lot.

:rolleyes:

[toymaster]

Back to the question of "cheating" - cheating at what? If you're refering to comps, it's legal in KCBS, but they instruct judges not to consider the smoke ring in judging because it can be chemically produced and has nothing to do with the flavor. If you're not considering comps, who cares? Cook what you like, how you like, and let the results speak for themselves.

Ditto. I have never used it. Occasionally I don't get a smoke ring. I got over it. I ate it anyway. The smoke ring is not the end result for me, just a small step to good BBQ.

[Fwismoker]

IMHO It is cheating if you use it in a smoke ring contest that specifically bans the use of sodium nitrates/nitrites. Otherwise I say use what you want if it tastes good, looks good and it isn't gonna kill ya who's to say your cheating.



I use TQ for my pastrami dry rub, is that cheating?
Not for the purpose of this discussion it isn't. Only if you consider it cheating for the purpose of SR

[Ron_L]

thats how you get a smoke ring using electric smoker. :)

I'm not sure about all electric smokers, but on my Cookshack Smokette all I had to do was add a Kingsford briquette to the wood box. No TQ needed.

[Fwismoker]

Heck lots of people use the amazen smokers in electrics and get great SR.

[Blythewood BBQ'er]

I'm not sure about all electric smokers, but on my Cookshack Smokette all I had to do was add a Kingsford briquette to the wood box. No TQ needed.

I agree Ron, I sometimes will mix in a couple of busted up briquettes into my wood chips on the MBE. I have fooled people with the smoke ring thinking I did the meat in a drum.

[qman]

I have a question to you then.

We all know that the traditional method to make ice cream is by slowly churning it so that the ice crystals break up and you get a nice creamy consistency. What do you think about one of the trends with ice cream making in restaurants by using a hobart machine to stir the ice cream around while pouring liquid nitrogen into it to freeze it. The hobart mixes it fast enough so the ice crystals are broken up and you still get a nice creamy consistency, and you make ice cream in minutes vs a few hours.

They are adding a chemical to get the desired result they would want correct. Would you call that cheating or using a different technique to get the same end result?

Actually, no. First nitrogen, liquid or not, is not a chemical. It is an element, and it is inert. So no chemical reaction takes place. The physical reaction of freezing faster is all that happens, coupled with the mechanical action of the mixer.

[aawa]

Actually, no. First nitrogen, liquid or not, is not a chemical. It is an element, and it is inert. So no chemical reaction takes place. The physical reaction of freezing faster is all that happens, coupled with the mechanical action of the mixer.

So sorry. I using that was a bad example.

I should of read up on other Molecular Gastranomy techniques and used those instead.


My bad.

[cowgirl]

This is posted in Q-Talk, so no way to "cheat" on Recreational BBQ 8)

Whatever the cook wants is fine with me.

TIM

The majority? There are 2873 users online and you have 18 votes.

Look, I don't even have any TQ, and I have never bought it in my life. I honestly don't worry much about getting a smoke ring. That being said, I don't see what difference any of this makes. Its just an ingredient, a cooking technique. Who cares? If the person eating it is satisfied, why do you care?

I didn't vote because...

1. it's their food, and so far I haven't found anyone enforcing rules about how I cook in my back yard, so what are they cheating at?

2. As long as they aren't trying to force me to use TQ, or MSG, or foil, or cook with the fat cap up, etc, I don't care. We are all free to cook the way we want and use whatever tools we feel necessary, and TQ is a tool just like MSG, foil, etc.


What these guys said. ^^^
I'm sure the members posting in the competition forum would have something to say.

As for me, I cook how and whatever I want to cook.

[Jorge]

If it's obviously artificial I might razz a friend. If they cook good food that doesn't make anyone sick, how is it any of my business what they do?

Use MSG, TQ, foil, run naked with scissors. I don't care.

[Jason TQ]

If it's obviously artificial I might razz a friend. If they cook good food that doesn't make anyone sick, how is it any of my business what they do?

Use MSG, TQ, foil, run naked with scissors. I don't care.

What if I'm doing all of those simultaneously right now?? Will you care then?? :mrgreen:

[Jorge]

What if I'm doing all of those simultaneously right now?? Will you care then?? :mrgreen:

As long as it's not at my house I urge you to drink heavily as well, and I'll pray for your speedy recovery:biggrin1:

[buccaneer]

I cannot wait to tell my Chinese vendors about their cheating ways with their traditional BBQ pork and crispy roasted ducks.
Thanks fwismoker!

[Fwismoker]

What these guys said. ^^^
I'm sure the members posting in the competition forum would have something to say.

As for me, I cook how and whatever I want to cook.

Are people that cook competition more likely to cook natural or cheat their rings?
I have no idea, just a back yard BBQer here.


For me and i believe most people the SR is just a matter of personal pride. I know that if i keep a good hot clean fire the sr turns out great and the food taste great. We all know that SR doesn't add to flavor but usually a better fire equates to better tasting smoke for the food so i don't know why someone would even want to fake it. Seems it would be better to work to perfect their craft.

[Fwismoker]

I cannot wait to tell my Chinese vendors about their cheating ways with their traditional BBQ pork and crispy roasted ducks.
Thanks fwismoker!
Whatever that means lol. Evidently it's looking like most people think it's faux so what's wrong with that?

[cowgirl]

Are people that cook competition more likely to cook natural or cheat their rings?
I have no idea, just a back yard BBQer here.


For me and i believe most people the SR is just a matter of personal pride. I know that if i keep a good hot clean fire the sr turns out great and the food taste great. We all know that SR doesn't add to flavor but usually a better fire equates to better tasting smoke for the food so i don't know why someone would even want to fake it. Seems it would be better to work to perfect their craft.

I'm sure if you posted the poll in the competition forum you would find the answer you're looking for.

Some folks take cooking too serious, I'm one that doesn't. I like to have fun while I cook and if I produce a good meal while doing it, that's all the better. :thumb:

[Will work for bbq]

Actually, insulting is exactly what he did and why so many are posting in this thread. Some guy posts asking for help to acheive a result.
How he was treated I will leave to you to judge.
Please read the link
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192085

WOW!!! Here I thought this poll was right out of left field.

[Fwismoker]

I'm sure if you posted the poll in the competition forum you would find the answer you're looking for.

Some folks take cooking too serious, I'm one that doesn't. I like to have fun while I cook and if I produce a good meal while doing it, that's all the better. :thumb:

Not sure what you mean by the answer I'm looking for, most thought TQ was faux.

Again i don't do the comp thing. I just like to make good food at home for myself and friends.....don't take it serious and have a blast doing it but would say take pride in it. I know by looking at your cooks you definitely take pride in it.

[Fwismoker]

WOW!!! Here I thought this poll was right out of left field. Yea that thread was talking about smoke rings. A couple people in there thought it wasn't fake using TQ so I thought a poll was a good way to find out what most though. Nothing else.

[buccaneer]

Are people that cook competition more likely to cook natural or cheat their rings?
I have no idea, just a back yard BBQer here.


For me and i believe most people the SR is just a matter of personal pride. I know that if i keep a good hot clean fire the sr turns out great and the food taste great. We all know that SR doesn't add to flavor but usually a better fire equates to better tasting smoke for the food so i don't know why someone would even want to fake it. Seems it would be better to work to perfect their craft.

It amazes me that people can be exposed to concepts demonstrated in clear language yet not pick up one single iota.

It is complete bollocks that a human being has the capacity to distinguish through taste the difference of well BBQed meat with a smoke ring or without.
There are conditions that mean awesome BBQ is cooked perfectly without a smoke ring of any significance.

You seem totally oblivious to molecular bonding and diffusion for penetration.
You seem to be addictivly holding to the notion that because the conditions you work under that provide a smoke ring means superiority in some way, yet you haven't figured out where your smoke ring comes from.
It isn't the miracle f a clean fire mate.
It isn't the craft of making a clean fire, in those terms a dirty fire would be closer to the truth.

The main thing is, why do you not grasp that creating an aesthetic look for your food is simply part of all cooking, and anyone at home has the freedom to overcome the conditions preventing their cooker in their weather/conditions from attaining it by using his head?
In the land of the free and the brave, you want to condemn anyone who uses a rub or a scientific method to attain the same exact process that you have..and you aren't responsible for creating that circumstance.
You just THINK you are, and THINK it means you have some claim to fame.

Again, the smoke ring is produced in exactly the same way for all of us.
The meat and the air does not assess where the gasses come from, fire or rub.
I know I am wasting my time, but it may help someone reading who is open and willing to think about it.

[Fwismoker]

It amazes me that people can be exposed to concepts demonstrated in clear language yet not pick up one single iota.

It is complete bollocks that a human being has the capacity to distinguish through taste the difference of well BBQed meat with a smoke ring or without.
There are conditions that mean awesome BBQ is cooked perfectly without a smoke ring of any significance.

You seem totally oblivious to molecular bonding and diffusion for penetration.
You seem to be addictivly holding to the notion that because the conditions you work under that provide a smoke ring means superiority in some way, yet you haven't figured out where your smoke ring comes from.
It isn't the miracle f a clean fire mate.
It isn't the craft of making a clean fire, in those terms a dirty fire would be closer to the truth.

The main thing is, why do you not grasp that creating an aesthetic look for your food is simply part of all cooking, and anyone at home has the freedom to overcome the conditions preventing their cooker in their weather/conditions from attaining it by using his head?
In the land of the free and the brave, you want to condemn anyone who uses a rub or a scientific method to attain the same exact process that you have..and you aren't responsible for creating that circumstance.
You just THINK you are, and THINK it means you have some claim to fame.

Again, the smoke ring is produced in exactly the same way for all of us.
The meat and the air does not assess where the gasses come from, fire or rub.
I know I am wasting my time, but it may help someone reading who is open and willing to think about it.

It was a poll whether people think it's faux or not. Most evidently do think it's faux. That's all this was about. If you don't agree with me i'll still sleep ok mate. Feel free to use as much TQ as you want. :laugh:

[buccaneer]

Whatever that means lol. Evidently it's looking like most people think it's faux so what's wrong with that?

Truth is NOT democratic.

Here is your crowd
"Hey, EVERYONE knows /the world is flat/green tomatoes are poisonous/clean fires make smoke rings/searing locks in the juices/laying a steak on the table for 20 minutes makes it cook more evenly"

[sliding_billy]

My opinion on this is solely as it relates to back yard cooking. You can't cheat in the yard. As for comps, the whole thing is a cheat IMO. Folks are cooking with rigged rigs and not managing fires, using TQ, making food that is only edible by somebody's narrow definition of "right" and that is exactly the point of the competition. Sorry if you were getting ready to fire back against me for bashing comps. I am not. Comps and backyard cooking are two different animals. BBQ has its place in both worlds. Do what makes you happy in the yard, and do what makes you win in a comp. Peace!

[buccaneer]

It was a poll whether people think it's faux or not. Most evidently do think it's faux. Feel free to use as much TQ as you want. :laugh:
I've never used it.
Ive never gone after a smoke ring.
I read the food science and realized it was without merit.
As is your stance :becky:

[cowgirl]

Are people that cook competition more likely to cook natural or cheat their rings? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=cowgirl;2968020]I'm sure if you posted the poll in the competition forum you would find the answer you're looking for.



Not sure what you mean by the answer I'm looking for, most thought TQ was faux.



:confused: The answer to the question you just asked me in post 54.

[Shagdog]

It was a poll whether people think it's faux or not. Most evidently do think it's faux. Feel free to use as much TQ as you want. :laugh:

See that's the thing. You never said faux. You said cheating. Cheating carries a much more negative connotation. You get a smoke ring because conditions happen to be right for it. One of those conditions happens to be that your rubs contain nitrites, which help foster a smoke ring. The fact that you aren't willingly adding nitrites purely for smoke ring but for flavor seems to be where you draw the line. If I use tender quick for flavor, am I no longer a cheater?

And as a side note, when I started Qing back, I dunno, 20 years ago, I thought when you smoked food, that meant lots and lots of smoke. Wet chips, smothering the fire, green wood, whatever made the most smoke. And you know what? Biggest smoke rings I ever saw, so your "keep a clean fire" theory doesn't really hold water either. You should probably learn more about the science behind this phenomenon before just judging how everyone else cooks.

[TuscaloosaQ]

At first i got mad when someone was talking about TQ cheating.........because they call me TQ.... then i read a little and saw you were talking about tenderquick..... Cheating using it... come on now.... use what you want.... is it cheating putting ketchup on fries.... or syrup on pancakes....... or for me BBQ sauce on ribs....... wrappin ribs or butts in that shiny stuff..... to each his own..... i use tenderquick on my bacon for curing.. is that cheating........ i say It aint my business to be dipping into someone elses cooks or how they cook........ i could go on and on!!!!!!!

[Hawg Father of Seoul]

would this be a good time/place to ask what tender quick is?

meat tenderizer?

Tender quick is what happens to my brisket. :bow:

[pjtexas1]

Tender quick is what happens to my brisket. :bow:

A joke? Exactly what we needed.:thumb:
Seriously, message me how you cook your briskets. I'm really interested and would like to give it a try.

[Fwismoker]

See that's the thing. You never said faux. You said cheating. Cheating carries a much more negative connotation.

Huh? Seriously. Go back and re read the poll question and choices.


View Poll Results: Is adding sodium nitrates/ nitrites to meat cheating for smoke rings
Yes it is a faux smoke ring and cheating. 32 68.09%
No it's not considered cheating




As far as a clean fire goes all i know in my world a clean fire makes good smoke. Most think a hot fire makes a clean fire and a hot fire makes a better SR. The SR is just a bi product ....i care more about good smoke. Now that's not a bad thing i wouldn't think.

[Smokesignalsfromtx]

It's simple science.

Here's the real question. If two briskets were placed in front of you, could you tell which one was actually cooked in a stick burner by appearance alone?

😳

[Ron_L]

To get back on topic :rolleyes:...

Let's say that I really did care what the guy down the block uses on his food :-D. How are nitrites from the combustion of wood different than nitrites from the rub that is applied or nitrites that are present in a curing agent? Nitrites are nitrites and the effect on the meat is the same. They don't occur naturally in the meat. They are being applied to the meat by our actions. Why does it matter how they get there?

[buccaneer]

To get back on topic :rolleyes:...

Let's say that I really did care what the guy down the block uses on his food :-D. How are nitrites from the combustion of wood different than nitrites from the rub that is applied or nitrates that are present in a curing agent? Nitrites are nitrites and the effect on the meat is the same. they don't occur naturally in the meat. They are being applied to the meat by our actions. Why does it matter how they get there?
:doh:
Dammit Ronelle, I wrote a heap of paragraphs to make that point you just succintly put in a few sentences.
You know, even this pointed I'm betting it falls to the floor tho! :tsk:

:becky:

[oifmarine2003]

Well put Ron!

[Fwismoker]

To get back on topic :rolleyes:...

Let's say that I really did care what the guy down the block uses on his food :-D. How are nitrites from the combustion of wood different than nitrites from the rub that is applied or nitrates that are present in a curing agent? Nitrites are nitrites and the effect on the meat is the same. they don't occur naturally in the meat. They are being applied to the meat by our actions. Why does it matter how they get there?


Horshack ...ooh oooh! :biggrin1:

The answer is they are the same. Now if you ask who's tastes better that would probably be from the guy that used wood.

The smoke ring imo is just the bi product of good smoked food and there is no reason to fake it. The only TQ in my cupboard is for curing.

I would like to assume that when someone posts a beautiful picture of proN that the nice smoke ring people comment on came from the smoker not from the shaker.

[buccaneer]

I just went back each page.
If numbers is what make you right, then of all the posters in this thread guess how many are against your opinion, and how many are for it????
You will not be told, so go back page by page and count.
You are not ONLY in a minority, but almost extinct.

[Will work for bbq]

We should all just start calling it a Nitrite ring, smoke ring sounds so dated and nitrite ring kinda sounds futuristic and cool. Don't you think?

[IamMadMan]

I wouldn't call it cheating, but I would say that there is some type of theory that it is wrong to use TQ to get a faux smoke ring, as smoke rings are no longer a judging criteria in competitions because of this practice.

http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/g/gsmokering.htm

But, I also want to say that if someone wishes to do this to get a smoke ring or enhance their smoke ring, more power to them... We are all adults and we are capable of making our own decisions and living with the results whether they are good or bad.

I think the question, if worded differently, would not have created such controversy amongst us. I didn't vote because of the wording, but personally I wouldn't use TQ to get a smoke ring, but I wouldn't fault another if he felt moved to do so.

.

[Ron_L]

Horshack ...ooh oooh! :biggrin1:

The answer is they are the same. Now if you ask who's tastes better that would probably be from the guy that used wood.

The smoke ring imo is just the bi product of good smoked food and there is no reason to fake it. The only TQ in my cupboard is for curing.

I would like to assume that when someone posts a beautiful picture of proN that the nice smoke ring people comment on came from the smoker not from the shaker.

OK, good... We agree that they are the same. So, once again, what difference does it make how the nitrites get there. It has nothing to do with taste. The flavor is from the seasoning and the smoke, and if I use celery salt or seeds in my rub, or dust the meat with a curing agent and then my rub, and smoke the meat, it is still getting the flavor from the rub and the smoke.

It is possible to have "good smoked food" without a smoke ring. Go back to the thread that started all of this. Tony told us that his food from his WSM is fantastic, but it just doesn't have a smoke ring.

The smoke ring is 100% cosmetic, and when you look at the finished product there is no way to tell where the nitrites that caused the smoke ring came from. That's why the KCBS tells it's judges not to take the smoke ring into consideration when judging appearance.

[Ron_L]

Mod Note:

OK Boys and Girls...

This thread has been scrubbed AGAIN!

1. If you can't post on topic, and keep it civil, go read another thread. There are lots of them out there.

2. Keep the personal feuds out of here. Take it to PM if you can leave each other alone.

[Fwismoker]

OK, good... We agree that they are the same. So, once again, what difference does it make how the nitrites get there. It has nothing to do with taste. The flavor is from the seasoning and the smoke, and if I use celery salt or seeds in my rub, or dust the meat with a curing agent and then my rub, and smoke the meat, it is still getting the flavor from the rub and the smoke.

It is possible to have "good smoked food" without a smoke ring. Go back to the thread that started all of this. Tony told us that his food from his WSM is fantastic, but it just doesn't have a smoke ring.

The smoke ring is 100% cosmetic, and when you look at the finished product there is no way to tell where the nitrites that caused the smoke ring came from. That's why the KCBS tells it's judges not to take the smoke ring into consideration when judging appearance.

Yea we agreed the whole time Ron. It is cosmetic. I think it's silly to fake it is all. If there's a good fire it'll always happen in the majority of smokers automatically.

Forever people have considered applying TQ is being faux and considering cheating a smoke ring...it looks like that hasn't changed judging the poll #s

This wasn't supposed to turn into a battle over whether it's right or wrong, that's personal preference. That's why i said this in the first post.


*** Regardless of whether you think it's necessary right or wrong do you consider it cheating? ***

^^^^^ Maybe some didn't read that part? :noidea:^^^^


Some think it's right, some think it's wrong but the question was do they consider it cheating a SR.

[smokeswirl]

I dont think its cheating but I wont be using it. Neither will I use MSG. As far as I am concerned it is a lab created chemical. People want to say that foiling, and water pan etc is cheating but I think that is a little bit different. I would like to think of that as technique.

If its a matter of technique Im okay with that

[buccaneer]

There is no " faux" smoke ring.
It is a smoke ring.

There is no cheating a smoke ring.
You can cheat a school student but not a smoke ring.

It's not sensible to say with a good fire it happens in the majority of smokers because you have no way of knowing that, considering that you didn't know how smoke rings happen or wether yours or anyone's come from fire or combustion of materials to form gases

[Ron_L]

It was a poll whether people think it's faux or not. Most evidently do think it's faux. That's all this was about. If you don't agree with me i'll still sleep ok mate. Feel free to use as much TQ as you want. :laugh:

I dont think its cheating but I wont be using it. Neither will I use MSG. As far as I am concerned it is a lab created chemical. People want to say that foiling, and water pan etc is cheating but I think that is a little bit different. I would like to think of that as technique.

If its a matter of technique Im okay with that

I'm good with that. It's your personal preference.

But, nitrites aren't a lab created chemical. It is naturally occurring byproduct from the combustion of wood, and the nitrites in a curing agent are the same, just put into a form that is convenient to use.

Same with the glutamates in MSG. They are naturally occurring in lots of foods. MSG powder just puts the same natural glutamates into an easy to use form.

(No, I don't want to turn this into an MSG debate. We've beaten that horse a long time ago).

[Fwismoker]

Time to forget the beer....on to tequila. It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

[Ron_L]

Mod Note:

OK... We've posted two warning already in this thread. Consider this the third, and final warning.

The next person to post a personal attack or a post that has no purpose other than to antagonize will get a time out. Period.

If you can follow this, take a break, walk away, and come back when your head is clear and you can post ON TOPIC and in a civil manner.

[Smokeoholic]

Outstanding Ron L ^ ^ ^ ^

This is just one of the reasons you're a Mod.

[smoke ninja]

Wow this is the scrubbed version. Would have loved to catch all this live.

Many have got hung up on the wording of the question. It may be slanted or leading but who cares.


A good spirited argument can be fun sometimes, just as long as we remember it is not that serious.

[deguerre]

I'd like a third voting option for "Who Gives A Fark?"...

[Mikeinctown]

Cheating implies that something is against the rules with a penalty attached. If it is against the rules then yes, if not, then no. There is no "opinion" one way or the other.

[Brew n Que]

I think the problem with this poll is that it is asking 2 different questions. The main question asks if it's "cheating", whereas the choices deal with it being "fake" or not. It's not cheating, as there is no rule that says you can't use it. It is, however, fake in the sense that you are not getting a SMOKE ring from the reaction of smoke with meat and rub. Instead, you are getting a ring from the reaction of TQ and meat.

[Lake Dogs]

^^^ +1 above. Well said Brew!