flats on

[billm]

first time cooking flats on the used bandera i bought..im noticing that they just dont seem to crust up with as nice a bark as they do on my horizontal offset..
is this common to vertical smokers?? its been running 230-250 all day (since 9) its now 4:30 and although the flats seem close to temp the outside looks "sludgy" for lack of a better term..did nothing different to prep the meat than i do when i cook on the other offset..some parts of the flat are 180 where other parts are 150 still

[bbqinNC]

I get good bark on mine, but I don't know how it compares to what you are used to. My briskets usually take 10-12 hours when cooked at a nominal 225 degrees in my Bandera.

[billm]

I get good bark on mine, but I don't know how it compares to what you are used to. My briskets usually take 10-12 hours when cooked at a nominal 225 degrees in my Bandera.
yea wasnt worried to much on the time as just the weird temps in different parts of the meat..these are not large pieces of meat..about 5 pounds a piece..so 10-12 hrs would be pretty extreme..they normally take about 8 hrs tops
the bark looks like they were foiled (they were'nt)

[FatDad]

Might be the rack position you cooked on.
Sounds like you are getting moist heat from the water pan or something.
Maybe try moving the rack up in the chamber.

[rookiedad]

i had two cooks go that direction this winter on a wsm. i figured it had to do with the cold and the water pan and condensation so i put sand in the pan and had better results, and results continued to get better the warmer it got and the less wind was involved. what was the outside weather like? also if you put sand in the pan cover with foil but come to think of it i am unfamiliar with the banderas waterpan setup and i don't know if sand would serve any purpose. good luck.
phil

[billm]

i use sand in my wsm but figured since im not all that well versed with the bandera yet that i would just use water..im thinking maybe it was the moistness.

[jsmoker]

How often did you spray the flats? Typically when I can't get the bark to develop it's because I'm trying to rush them by cooking at a higher temp and bringing the water in the water pan up closer to 212 and releasing a bunch more steam. Throw in a number of apple juice spritzers and I'm left with that sludgy bark that you talk about.

If you're cooking at a higher temp, you might back off on the spray just a bit to compensate for the added moisture in the smoke chamber. Make sure the bark dries before you spray again.

[RichardF]

How often did you spray the flats? Typically when I can't get the bark to develop it's because I'm trying to rush them by cooking at a higher temp and bringing the water in the water pan up closer to 212 and releasing a bunch more steam. Throw in a number of apple juice spritzers and I'm left with that sludgy bark that you talk about.

If you're cooking at a higher temp, you might back off on the spray just a bit to compensate for the added moisture in the smoke chamber. Make sure the bark dries before you spray again.

I thinnk you should wait for your bark to establish itself before doing any spraying.

[billm]

How often did you spray the flats? Typically when I can't get the bark to develop it's because I'm trying to rush them by cooking at a higher temp and bringing the water in the water pan up closer to 212 and releasing a bunch more steam. Throw in a number of apple juice spritzers and I'm left with that sludgy bark that you talk about.

If you're cooking at a higher temp, you might back off on the spray just a bit to compensate for the added moisture in the smoke chamber. Make sure the bark dries before you spray again.

i dont spray..bottom line i cooked exactly as i do in the other offset (which does not have a water pan)..Im thinking the steam may have had something to do with it at this point

[bbqinNC]

yea wasnt worried to much on the time as just the weird temps in different parts of the meat..these are not large pieces of meat..about 5 pounds a piece..so 10-12 hrs would be pretty extreme..they normally take about 8 hrs tops
the bark looks like they were foiled (they were'nt)

Was it windy that day? The door can be pretty leaky. As rookiedad mentions they are pretty wind sensitive. I have cooked some butts in the weight range you mention and have had very good bark.

From the top here is a picture of some ribe reheating, a brisket cut in half on two different shelves, and butt. All had a nice bark.

(Can't get the picture to work, oh well)

[billm]

not really all that windy..at all..70 degrees and calm

[jsmoker]

I thinnk you should wait for your bark to establish itself before doing any spraying.


Yeah, totally agree with you Richard. Just getting at the added moisture from the water pan boiling combined with the spray could've wet down the bark and turned it into the sludge. But he didn't spray, so it's most likely got to be the high humidity from the water pan.

[billm]

Yeah, totally agree with you Richard. Just getting at the added moisture from the water pan boiling combined with the spray could've wet down the bark and turned it into the sludge. But he didn't spray, so it's most likely got to be the high humidity from the water pan.

yep..no spray..gonna try with sand in pan..seems to work ok on the wsm

[RichardF]

Are you using the same thermometer in the 'dera that you use in the horizontal? Have you checked the calibration on your thermometer?

[billm]

Are you using the same thermometer in the 'dera that you use in the horizontal? Have you checked the calibration on your thermometer?

got 4 polders and 2 maverick remotes .i use them on all three cookers..they are reading fine

[RichardF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardF
Are you using the same thermometer in the 'dera that you use in the horizontal? Have you checked the calibration on your thermometer?

got 4 polders and 2 maverick remotes .i use them on all three cookers..they are reading fine

Sounds like you are fully instrumented.

To quote the sage words from the Indian chief in the Dustin Hoffman movie Little Big Man, "sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn't." This may be one of the times where the magic just didn't work. I know I've had that experience while cooking barbecue.

[Jorge]

Do you have a baffle installed? That could help explain some of the difference in temp.

[kcquer]

bill, the sand pan mod is certainly worth a try. I know the waterpan won't cause squishy bark everytime, but I think it can add to the "magic not happening" sometimes.
Here's the cool part, ya get to cook another brisket and see what happens:wink: :-D

[billm]

yea thats the fun part..retrying..
anway its just a matter of getting used to a different cooker..only other cooker i got with a water pan is the wsm and i use sand in it..anway ill post further results..
oh yeah..i do have abffle installed

[CarbonToe]

i use sand in my wsm but figured since im not all that well versed with the bandera yet that i would just use water..im thinking maybe it was the moistness.

I was thinking the same thing! :-P

'Half fill' the pan so it drys out toward the end of cooking so you are finishing off on dry heat might work. Keep an eye on the heat once that pans empty (or fill with pre warmed sand)

[billm]

I was thinking the same thing! :-P

'Half fill' the pan so it drys out toward the end of cooking so you are finishing off on dry heat might work. Keep an eye on the heat once that pans empty (or fill with pre warmed sand)
anyway ever run one with out the pan? im wondering why its needed seeing as the firebox is offset just like a horizontal one

[kcquer]

bill, I think someone here does exactly that. However I'm also sure they use a heat diffuser of some sort as well. Hopefully they'll post.

You need something between the opening of the firebox and the meat. With the small vertical configuration of a 'dera, there just isn't adequate physical distance to achieve true "offset" cooking. Even half or 2/3 the way up the cookbox, undeflected heat would be pretty intense on the bottom rack of food, essentially grilling the underside.
The waterpan (with the aid of a baffle) is just a good way to achieve the inderect effect when physical distance is an issue.

As to your original problem of squishy bark, did you cook your flats fatside up or down, or did they have a fat side?

[billm]

fat side up

[billm]

bill, I think someone here does exactly that. However I'm also sure they use a heat diffuser of some sort as well. Hopefully they'll post.

You need something between the opening of the firebox and the meat. With the small vertical configuration of a 'dera, there just isn't adequate physical distance to achieve true "offset" cooking. Even half or 2/3 the way up the cookbox, undeflected heat would be pretty intense on the bottom rack of food, essentially grilling the underside.
The waterpan (with the aid of a baffle) is just a good way to achieve the inderect effect when physical distance is an issue.

As to your original problem of squishy bark, did you cook your flats fatside up or down, or did they have a fat side?

yea get some intense heat in the wsm as well when using with sand and cooking on the lower level..usually end up having to line the the bottom rack with trimmed fat and then removing it about 3/4 of the way through the cook..

[kcquer]

fat side up


try cooking fatcap down, at least for a while later in the cook, say from 160 or 170 internal thru the end of the cook. This will put the bark side up, away from the oncoming steam, and at least the top one will be dripping away from the bark instead of dripping down onto it.

I personally prefer to cook fatcap down throughout the cook. The "self basting" idea of fatcap up is 99% myth and the fat layer serves well to protect the underside of the meat.

[billm]

try cooking fatcap up, at least for a while later in the cook, say from 160 or 170 internal thru the end of the cook. This will put the bark side up, away from the oncoming steam, and at least the top one will be dripping away from the bark instead of dripping down onto it.

I personally prefer to cook fatcap up throughout the cook. The "self basting" idea of fatcap up is 99% myth and the fat layer serves well to protect the underside of the meat.

uh ..if you read my statement that you quoted i did say "fat side up"
:lol:

[kcquer]

my mistake in my post. I meat to say fatside down, bark side up as I did say. I'll edit to correct.