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BBQchef33
11-09-2005, 10:18 AM
Did my first KCBS judging event this weekend at Key largo.

2 things happened.....

I got to see first hand what goes on under the tent. As a competitor/cook I have a slightly better understanding of what to do and not to do. I think anyone who competes NEEDS to judge at least 5-6 times. It’s very enlightening to be on the other side of the spectrum. Our table only got a couple of entries worth writing home about. Allot of mediocre stuff and one of the absolute worse briskets I have ever seen or tasted. But the other stuff... top of the line, a couple ribs that got 99 (taste/texture)at our table from several judges. It seems that a majority can produce good BBQ, but few produce outstanding BBQ.

The second thing, and more important.. I was "A brethren" judging an event where 2 teams were flying our colors. This was an enlightening perspective.

When I left, I flew 1500 miles to hang out with Southern Brethren, to meet Jimmy for Smoking Cracker, and say Hi to DrBBQ and to give the old rah-rah for our teams. I wear the brethren hat.. Bring tee shirts to give to everyone, and of course, the signature prime rib to feed the guys.. Then Saturday, from 10-2, I put on my judges pin and go sit under the double blind judging guidelines. There is no way possible that I would know what turnins belongs to who, I have my integrity, and I will judge everyone on a level playing field and on their individual merit. Cool, I can do that.

When judging is over, I'll have a beer with the guys, and sit with them during the awards.. Take pictures when they walk, or offer shoulder if they don’t. Cool, I can do that too.

And I KNOW how pooped they will be when they day is done.. I will help knock down and put away there stuff and get them out of there right? Cool.. I will definitely do that. All of us would..

Guess what .

WRONG! Bad MOVE.. Bad assumptions. From the second I stepped on the airplane.

JUDGING:

judge
v. judged, judg·ing, judg·es
v. tr.

To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration, To act as one appointed to decide the winners of: , To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation. Informal. To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose: v. intr. To form an opinion or evaluation. To act or decide as a judge.

One who judges, especially: One who makes estimates as to worth, quality, or fitness: One appointed to decide the winners of a contest or competition.
Before I went down there, I bounced off of Dave the thought of me hanging out Friday night with them. Is it ok for a judge to do that? The word was, before the event, we can do what we want on our own time. So, I went down a couple days earlier to visit mom in Boca Raton who of course insisted I bring her back some BBQ. Before leaving for Key Largo, I confirmed with Dave that Friday night, the pit would be available for some recreational cooking. Of course!! .. So I got us the 18lb Prime rib, fatties, peppers, biscuits, fresh bread, cheese and produce to make bruscietta(the cheese bread version). and some chicken and ribs to make for mom to bring home… even a funky pork roast to experiment on along with all necessary supplies to make everything. Sounds good. Grabbed a bottle of watermelon vodka for the “non cooks” to enjoy. I figured I’m gonna get these guys fed in brethren style before they hit the sack for the next day. As long as they are not cooking, prepping and they say the pit is free, no problem. My biggest concern was getting in their way, which was not happening. We are The Brethren, all friends, we hang together, eat, cook, and drink together. Early on, we made the fatties, cheese bread, prime rib, fed us and several other teams when we were all fed we made some ribs and thighs. All was good, except when I drove over the water pipes that fed our entire side of the road(another story).

This all sounds good right??

But: We are competitors, AND judges.

Ray(DrBBQ) comes over and enlightens us to what can be perceived by others. He was not challenging us himself.. He was warning us…. He knew the entire story, he ate with us, saw the food I brought, knew I was going to make some stuff for mom, blah blah blah…. He knows us.. BUT… he pointed out what others who don’t know us sees… it was a perspective that was not even considered.

Not to go into long winded gory details.. here is what was visible.

Me hangin with Smokin Cracker and Southern Brethren. 2 Teams that fly The Pig. I’m drinking, cooking laughing.. all around hanging with the brothers. Walking around meeting other teams…The same stuff I do at all the competitions I attend..but as a competitor.. not a Judge..

A judge, hanging out with the brethren Teams, all day(and also cooking) the day before turn-in…. may not look good… I am not wearing a tee shirt that says I am a judge, but I am wearing our colors. This may seem like a long shot, but keep reading.

This is something we need to look at… we need to think about it and implement a protocol that will not breed the perception of impropriety. More and more of us are becoming judges. In this little world we have here, its part of the vision I have for the entity known as “The BBQ Brethren”. We will range from new capable teams, to seasoned veterans, to Grand Champions, and mixed in there, judges, table captains, and master judges This says that we will be judging our brothers. Blindly, fairly and professionally. But we must be cognizant of what other competitors see. It’s early, there are only a dozen or 2 active judges among us. Most of which may just stop by and say hello, have a beer or 2, this is not an issue.. It is for those of us who are flying the colors and deeply entrenched in “The Brethren”, we must become aware.

I am not trying to set a protocol at this stage of the game, but open up the dialogue. How do we do this? How do we attend competitions as judges and maintain the “spirit of the brethren”…. camaraderie, friendships, etc. We WANT to visit with our brothers, and I mean beyond hello and a handshake. It would suck not to. When I am competing, and a stranger comes to me and says he is “A Brethren”, he is no longer a stranger, and he is welcome into my tent. Open the cooler and pull up a chair… It’s who we are…

But as a judge arriving under a tent, we must be aware that we cannot risk or influence the teams chances one bit, and stuff that we would do without that blue shirt or judges pin may have to be held off. Not because of them, but because of those around them. This is not a question of what is allowed, it is a question of what is perceived.. I have seen judges sitting under tents for hours on end, and have never given it a second thought, we are protected by the double blind judging. WELL.. IMO, that don't matter. My experience dealing with this forum tells me that someone will always find something to complain about. :mrgreen: We need input from the pros, hopefully, Ray, Rod, Jim, etc..to help us out here. For Ray to point this out, he knows better than most of us.. there is something to it. Granted I was cooking... That may be the tiebreaker and may be the answer to this specific instance.. what about the image overall.

Let the debate begin.

Arlin_MacRae
11-09-2005, 10:53 AM
No debate from this non-competitor, non-judge, but let me say this about that:
"Perception is TRUTH". In other words, what people see, and the conclusions they correctly or incorrectly draw - are THE WAY IT IS.

Seeing you at a judge's table and thinking, "Haven't I seen that guy before...?" and then remembering just exactly where they saw you? Bad ju-ju.

People will bitch and complain and scream and throw tantrums - especially if they even get a whiff of something that seems unfair to them. It's just human nature.

Defuse the situation before it starts: either meet with buds in private or, the more preferred method - don't hang with them till after the walkers have walked.

My two pennies.

Arlin

Smoker
11-09-2005, 11:12 AM
Phil,

I can understand what you said and what other people may have "percieved" but it is a blind judging contest. When you sit down at the judges table you can't know whose food you are tasting.

If i just want to cook or taste BBQ I can do that at home. I think most of us go to the competitions to either cook or judge for one reason...... to have a great time and meet like minded people. Whether I am cooking or judging I want to ba able walk around and say hello to old frinds and make new friends. I would think that 99.99% of people will put their judges cap on when they walk into the judges tent and leave their families and friends behind. If a very small percentage of people think that someone who is judging should park their car and sit in the judges tent then I think they should reevaluate why they compete. It can't be for the money. If I am judging an event and you tell me I can't interact then I really don't want to drive somewhere to eat BBQ that I could have had at home.

You will never be able to please 100% of the people. When we competed this year I never even looked in the judges tent to see who was judging.

I can understand the perception of impropriety but if people start complaining about it, I would rather stay at home.

Steve

chad
11-09-2005, 11:40 AM
I agree and I was a player in this whole scenerio.

Perception is important, absolutely, but common sense must come into play, too. Acussing a team or judge of impropriety MUST be backed up with fact, in my opinion. There's too much $$ and prestige riding on these contests to have sour-grapes and inuendo/rumors get the upper hand.

I fully understand what Ray pointed out and fully understand that "we" need to be very circumspect and professional as cook teams and as judges. I didn't handle the initial discussion very well - but Ray and I discussed it Saturday morning and I ensured him that I understand, fully, his point. I'd have to be an absolute moron to not realize that he did us a great favor in making us take a hard look at what could have been a contentious situation.

I don't agree that "Perception is TRUTH" though I fully appreciate that truism from an ethics standpoint. TRUTH is TRUTH and PERCEPTION colors that TRUTH...it's been a long time since my college ethics class! As most of you can imagine I don't have a PC bone in my body and if anyone wants to play head games with ethics - well, just say I don't play well with others when accussed falsely of unfair or unethical actions.

I don't believe that Brethren judges should avoid the teams - but do agree that we/they should NOT hang out all evening and prep any food...even if it is personal. That was a mis-fire on my part but I really thought we'd have been finished with everything a long time before hand. My bad!

Stop by, have a brew, eat some food, and then roll on down the midway. Perhaps that's the answer. Definately avoid hanging out Saturday (or Sunday at some events) morning - I usually do a stroll through and say good morning to everyone and maybe snag a cup of coffee. But then, I don't arrive on Friday night either.

It is a conundrum and one we should address - and I'm thinking we're seeing that the consensus is/will be that Brethren judges do not hang with the Brethren teams for any length of time prior to the event and it would probably behoove us to not wear our hats and tee's in a judging environment. I've always worn my hat at FBA events I've judged and it's never been an issue - I will be rethinking that due to the potential problems discussed here.

This is new ground for us and reflects the growth of this group and the potential impact it can have since we have logos and a lot of friendships involved. This particular issue at Key Largo was a fluke but in the midwest or now the northeast with a concentrated season and multiple Brethren teams and a pool of Brethren judges it could become an issue - and all it takes is one formal complaint or several rumors for it to get completely out of hand. Thankfully Ray brought it to our attention in a very professional way and as a "friend". Thanks Ray.

As we hash out protocol I think we'll see that common sense will prevail.

BBQchef33
11-09-2005, 11:44 AM
i tend to agree with steve... (great minds think a like.). If i go to MOFO land, i would be the first one at the margarita machine and pinchin spicewines butt.... i WANT to hang out with the brothers.. and i think most would expect that.. i sure do. Personally, I'd be ticked/offended at any of us who come to judge an event I am competing in and did NOT pull up a chair.

other side of the coin...

The danger is in what the OTHER guy sees. Is it worth the risk of DQ'ing someone if he takes a GC and someone complains. ???

In the case of Key largo, I told everyone I will forgo judging if they thought this would become an issue. I would prefer to sit under the tent or be pitbitch to my Brethren than to judge and effect their chances.

This could be a simple answer.... "its up to the team." If they feel there is an issue, it can be their call. My tent.. its open..until Saturday morning. then chances are you dont want to me around me anyway. GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Kevin
11-09-2005, 12:13 PM
The fact that this is even being discussed shows a great deal of integrity.

The_Kapn
11-09-2005, 12:55 PM
Fantastic post Phil--Thanks.

My nickle on this.

This has come up before on a smaller scale with me while Judging. Largo just drove the dangers home for me.

I just need to use my head and keep the whole competetive environment in mind, better than I have in the past.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with visiting with friends at an event--that is one of the big draws to competeting.
When you think about the "old timers" on the circuit, the teams all know each other, the judges, and the Reps and they do visit--- each and every weekend. Have a cold one, share a snack, etc. No big deal. Very natural.
But, it is a half hour "here", an hour and a half "there" and they do not wear unique attire or participate directly in chores around the cook site. Nothing wrong with that, part of the culture.

But, we are growing in numbers weekly and we have our wonderful Flaming Pig. A very unique and identifiable logo. We have hats, aprons, banners, T-Shirts and all the "trappings". We are proud of who we are, rightfully so! We encourage our members, competetors and non-competetors alike, to get certified and then actually judge.

It is easy to see why a "non-brethren team" would wonder about the status of the players--"Are they part of the team, or Judges".
Now, if the Brethren team is in the middle of the pack at awards--"who cares?" But, it the Brethren team wins big.......??????? Valid questions and concerns can be raised.
That perception is what I intend to avoid.
I do not intent to "taint" the performance of any team or the event.

Here are my personal guidlines (just for me) in the future.

If I judge an event with no "Brethren" banners flying, I will wear my hat with pride all weekend.
If I judge an event with teams flying the colors, my hat will stay in the van. I am still a Brother without my hat and want to protect the integrity of the teams competing. Small price to pay for the overall good of the sport.
At all events, I will "share the joy" of my companionship http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/redface.gif with all the teams I know and keep it to a reasonable level. I will share a libation, sample the wonderful creations they cook on Friday night, and have a great time.
I will avoid any actions (helping out) that could be perceived as blending me with the team.

Basically, I will support the teams the best I can while I also support the entire concept of competetive BBQ.
And, I will have fun doing it http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Just my thoughts--not trying to tell anyone else what to do,
Just me.

TIM

Ron_L
11-09-2005, 01:02 PM
Good point, Kevin...

Great post, Phil, and a great topic. Here's my spin as a novice competitor and non-judge... If I attended a competition as a judge, and spent time with a friend's team, and someone called me out about it, I would be ticked, but its something that I would have to deal with. If I did the same thing, and someone called out my friend, I would feel terrible since I had caused trouble for my friend.

Now here's where it gets fuzzy... What is considered to be excessive. If I come by and have a couple of beers and hang out for a while, even though it is with a friend, is that really any different that any judge who walks the competition on a Friday night, talking to the competitors and grabbing some free beer? Probably not. But, if someone notices that I am spending all of my time with one or two teams, that could be contrued as favoritism. However, if I hang out with my friends, and then "spread the love" and hang out with other teams, even if its for a few minutes, it less likely that someone will object.

I think...

Smoker
11-09-2005, 01:37 PM
"If I come by and have a couple of beers ".... "and hang out with other teams, even if its for a few minutes, it less likely that someone will object.
"

Ron,

What you are saying is it is better to get beer from all the competitors. Simply brilliant.

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2005, 01:40 PM
Great topic, Phil. And one that's crossed MY mind before when reading posts here. Hermann, MO and now Key Largo both stand out as examples. I plan to get certified in the off season and I've wondered recently if being a CBJ at an event would exclude me from visiting with Brethren friends. It's funny that it's officially come up now.


My take on it is very similar to Tim's. Being in the marketing field, I am well aware of and agree with the fact that perception is truth. It is truth in the minds of the perceivers. That's really all that matters. It doesn't matter if we're totally on the up and up and fair about our judging... if someone complains or makes accusatory remarks, the damage is done. Therefore, perception does become truth.

After getting everyone's input, I think that we need to put forth some official statement or Brethren policy that we can all agree upon to keep such issues from ever arising (hopefully). I like Tim's personal stance and how he plans to operate. It makes a lot of sense to me and once I'm certified, I plan to implement a similar approach. In our marketing at work, we strive to under promise and over deliver... basically to go beyond what we even claim we will. It's all about holding ourselves to a higher standard and I think the same thing could and should apply in this situation.

Looking forward to hearing more comments on this subect! As Kevin says, the fact that we're even discussing it shows integrity! Lots of it.

wsm
11-09-2005, 01:54 PM
Seems like a lot of cooks are also CBJs, but if they are not judging at the competition then their being a judge is irrelvant.

If they ARE judging, staying too long at one site is not a good idea (as most others have said). As has also been said, wearing something (a hat) that links you to a single team can cause misconceptions that we don't need.

scottyd
11-09-2005, 02:02 PM
the double blind covers your tail on this. We are all friends at these contests. If we do not have our friends and new friends, What do we have then. I might be way off base here but I do the competitions to make new friends and have fun and yes I do take my BBQing serious. But I like to hang with my friends also.

Smoker
11-09-2005, 02:10 PM
Perhaps we should get an OFFICIAL ruling from KCBS on...not what is politically correct( I do the opposite) but what the KCBS says are the official can and cannot do at a comp. If they don't have an official "can and cannot do at a comp" then they now need one.

If I'm judging and I buy a teeshirt from a team can I wear it in the judges tent?

Can I wear any teams logo in the judges tent?

Can a team be disqualified if they win GC and I drank with them before I judged?

Can I cook with a team before meat inspection?

Otherwise, I'm sorry if someone perceives something that isn't true. They are actually saying that I have no integrity, when they don't even know me. I will give other competitors the benefit of the doubt, I expect the same from them.

Just my opinion

The_Kapn
11-09-2005, 02:31 PM
After getting everyone's input, I think that we need to put forth some official statement or Brethren policy that we can all agree upon to keep such issues from ever arising (hopefully).

Jeff,
Not disagreeing with your fine post at all, but that concept makes me uncomfortable.

I really do not support any sort of policy statement in this matter.
Each event is different, each team is different, and each judge is different.
Even the "stakes" might come into play. A local rib-fest that is mostly for fun may (just may) tolerate much more interaction than a hotly contested "State Championship". Don't know for sure, but a lot of variables out there.

My hope is only that we, as a group, stay aware of the situation and the possible perils and act accordingly. And "accordingly" is up to the individuals involved.
Exactly like trying to define "excessive". You just have to be there to "feel" what "excessive" is, IMHO.

And I surely do not want to tell someone else exactly what to do, nor do I want someone else micromaging my actions.
This simply does not rise to that level

Great discussion guys.

TIM

BrooklynQ
11-09-2005, 02:32 PM
Tim's got the right approach, IMNTBHO.

If you read that other BBQ forum, you'll see a lot of posts where cooks are pissed because they didn't like the scores. To them the judges are suspect already.

This will only be an issue with the loosing teams, but imagine what would happen if a case could be made that BrooklynQ was hanging with, tasting the food, directing and coaching the Big Creek BBQ team (picked only because it's the post above) and Big Creek took GC when BQ was judging!!! They would scream that BQ should be banned as a judge and the team disqualified! And rightly so.

What's the rules on family members as judges? I've been trying to convince my wife to judge, only to give her something to do at the contests while I'm playing with my meat. But I've met wives, girlfriends and in-laws of the cooks in the judge's tents.

In my limited judging experience there were three types of judges...

1. The judges. That's all they do. They don't cook. They don't compete. They're only there for the food. They come in for the judges meeting and leave as soon as the judging is over. These guys don't have any real ties to the cooks and don't want them.

2. The cooks. These guys are judges because they want to get a handle on the competetion. They're there to help hone their craft and improve their performance at the pit. Their team isn't in the contest that day, but they're still competiting by judging and comparing.

3. The pit crews or retirees. These are the guys who are the soliders in the pits who are taking that day off and judging instead of pit bitching or washing dishes that weekend. The retirees - they're done the circuit for years and just don't want to cook any more but still enjoy the contests. The pit crews and retirees will be back amongst the cooks as soon as the judging is over.

Now, I've heard from a lot of long time judges, that after awhile, you know whoose food you are judging. One judge in NJ told me that he could pick out Jack McDavid's ribs at every event. (The names have been changed to protect the innocent) Even I could pick out one team's ribs because I ate as a spectator at a previous event. (I wasn't sure when I was judging, but it was confirmed when he gave me some ribs after the event.)

In the vast majority of cases, I think that the vast majority of judges take the responisibily seriously and do their very best to be fair and honest. This really is a system that could be very easily exploited.

It seems to me that most of the judges have some sort of connection to the teams. Just don't flaunt it before hand.

icemn62
11-09-2005, 03:20 PM
I don't cook in a competitive fashion unless you count being better than the last time I cooked. I was always under the impression that there is no way to tell who made what in the turn in box. I am going by the pics I have sen here and elsewhere on the net. To be honest, I could not tell a brisket slice made by spicewine, from Mistas, from the Poobah's unless the pic had captions.

If I were to go the competitive route, I would be offended to be cooking at a contest and later found out one of the brethren where there, and did not come by on Friday to at least say hi. I have only met in person, 3 other members from here, and I went home with the feeling we were friends.

I check this site hours per day and even if I don't agree with everything on the site, I think of all of you as my friends. If I got out and did the competing thing I would want to hang, drink some brews, share some food with any/all of you.

Now to the unenlighten BBQ'ers who are not yet Brethren, I can see where they can imagine some amiss about a judge hanging out with me before a contest. On the other hand, since there is no way he/she can pick whose meat he will be looking at, I don't see the problem. Sure I don't think a Brethren tee shirt should be worn in the judges tent during the judging. I but this is more to appease other people than make me happy.

Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

I agree that the fact this is something you are worried about means that you are in no way trying to cheat, or influence a contest.

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2005, 03:24 PM
Maybe a "policy" is too strong of a term, Tim. Maybe just the fact that we're discussing it here shows our integrity in this matter. I was just thinking of some sort of statement of position so that our brothers would have something to fall back on if an accusation was ever made. Something like "As a member of the BBQ Brethren, we are always reminded to... or encouraged to..." and follow that up with a statement of our own personal integrity. Maybe I'm thinking too much on this. Maybe just a good ol' "Don't ever question MY integrity" would suffice?

Jeff_in_KC
11-09-2005, 03:34 PM
I've only been in three contests so far, Gary and no, I have no clue who judged my turn-ins. I don't think that it's possible because of the double blind system BUT... what prevents someone from telling a friend who is judging "If you see such-and-such, you'll know it's mine so score it high." Maybe there's 4-5 other entries that look that way but then all five get scored high if that judge sees them all. I also know the person who used to organize the extinct contest at Piper, Kansas. He said that it was common knowledge around there that judges could tell by the turn-in box who the big names were and thus score them higher if they picked them out.

My point is that in spite of the fact the judging is blind, there are always ways that cheating can take place. That alone makes it necessary to at least have some sort of personal plan of action when you're judging an event to avoid such accusations. I'd just err on the side of caution.

The_Kapn
11-09-2005, 03:48 PM
Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

Gary,
From my perspective only--no and no.
I really do not want to know, but that is just me http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

And, yes the blind judging takes most of the risk out of a "plant" in the judging tent.

Also, If you have 4 tables or more, one judge will only post one set of scores on one of the team's entries, even if they know who it is. If a judge goes "Hey, that is my Bud Herkimer's entry and gives it 9-9-9, even that will not pull a mediocore entry to the top. It might have a slight influence the rating for an quality entry that was scoring very well anyway, but that is about the extent of the damage.

All of this discussion is not really about screwing with the judging system or doing anything wrong. I am sure all judges call it the way they see it.

The real issue is the "message sent" when other teams can not tell the judges from the teams--perceptual problem.
Can make them wonder, and I understand that.

Good post.

TIM

CharlieBeasley
11-09-2005, 04:01 PM
As a spectator in Key Largo (and taster of some great food) I would have to say that if we go on pure perception and left out common sense then we do not have a lot of faith in the “Integrity” of the judges. I saw a group of people who did what they do for several reasons from Money to Prestige and deserve the ability to compete in a fair competition. If the judges are suspect then the problem is bigger than a first time judge catching crap for hanging with friends. I saw the same person delivering food to many non-Brethren competitors he could have just passed out the Exlax and been done with the competition it would have been a lot easer than rigging a vote. We cannot let the cheats and liars of the world win because those with integrity give up their rights just to appease a perception to those who are less than ethical may see a problem.



I am new to competitive BBQ and learned a lot from the Brethren and non-Brethren alike every one I talked with was amazingly friendly and willing to spend a few minutes of their time to talk BBQ. To meet Jimmie, Doug, Ray, Tim and many others was a great experience for me and I will spend a lot of time learning what I learned ( I know that sounds weird but I guess it is overload?) The biggest lesson I learned is all the competitors put their heart into the cooking and completion and I do not think one of them would cheat if they could.



All rambling aside if it is prohibited do not do it if it is not let integrity rule common sense tells me that at least in regions the competitors will soon know each other and will police themselves so the perceptions will not matter.



Neewbe watching and learning THANKS TO ALL WHO PUT UP WITH ME!

BBQchef33
11-09-2005, 04:05 PM
Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?


It would be difficult for a team to find out who judged them, but in my limited experience, AFTER judging, and at a smaller contest, one may be able to know they judged one or two competitors if they got a look at the scoresheet....unless you have a photographic memory, and considering i forget my name sometimes, i dont qualify. :redface:

A teams second number from the double blind tagging is on their scoresheet. You can look at that number and know if you got it in one of your 24 entries. After consuming up to 24 samples, over 2 hours, knowing which catagory and which entry would be a real streatch of my memory.



BTW.. heres achance for some gloating from u ladies... u know who you are..
http://www.kcbs.us/bbq_contest_results/2005/11_05_2005_key_largo_fl.jsp


:biggrin: :biggrin: Proud Poobah Mod. :biggrin: :biggrin:

nmayeux
11-09-2005, 06:19 PM
I'm new to the game, but it impresses me that you guys have put so much thought into it. Phil, you flew 1000+ miles to judge, but the real draw was to see your extended family (Brethren). You were cooking on borrowed equipment (not coaching), and you extended the offer to forgoe judging if anyone became concerned. No matter what you do, people will form their own oppinion, so all you can do is be as honest as possible, and do it with as much class as you can muster.

Looking at it from my personal perspective, although I want to win, I want to be judged accurately and honestly. If my turn-ins are bad, I want to know that they are bad, and vise-versa. If I win, I want to know that I won on my own merit! This is the only way that I can improve. The best judges of improper conduct would be Jimmy, Tim, Dave, and the others that were with you, as they were the ones who would be accused of any benefits. Anyway, the bottom line is try to show as much respect to the other competitors as possible, but that being said, if you don't have fun, then you will cease to contribute to this sport that we all love!

Sawdustguy
11-09-2005, 07:58 PM
My take on this, unpopular as it may be, is to behave like a professional. If something you do, can be percieved as less than ethical, don't do it. These perceptions become reality as we are all human beings. If you wish to associate with anyone competing, do so after the judging is over and do it doscreetly. Just think of how your wife would feel, if at a company picnic you went off to shoot the breeze with a female co-worker and she saw you. It maybe very innocent, but her perception may prevent you from getting any for a month.

MilitantSquatter
11-09-2005, 08:30 PM
Wow...some serious BBQ for thought !!!. Valid points from everyone...

Based on my few months as a Brethen, I think this is a relative non-issue based on the nature of the group.This issue is much larger in scale, well beyond the Brethen and resides with the overall rules of KCBS.

BrooklynQ made a point that wifes & girlfriends, are often in the judges tent.... If there is room for judges who sleep and live with competitors, there surely has to be room for the Brethren to "hang out" for a little while. The Brethren exemplify everything that is right about competition BBQ folks. To me, this alone makes the debate needless especially given the fact that it's blind judging. It is nearly impossible to guarantee pefection to the rules in anything. Cheaters will always cheat in every sport and their will be some who will do whatever it takes to win.

A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?

CharlieBeasley
11-10-2005, 06:23 AM
Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?
Thanks good points and this quote gave me the best GRiN I have had in a while.:biggrin: :biggrin:

Sawdustguy
11-10-2005, 08:04 AM
A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.


I don't know if you realized it, but these contests are for cash prizes. The Grand Champion and Grand Reserve Champion both usually win a few large. I don't think this would be such a big deal if they were just competing for a trophy.

drbbq
11-10-2005, 08:33 AM
Hi Guys,
Sorry to be so late.
First off, let's not overreact. No one is saying a judge can't "interact" with a team on Friday. It's a long tradition to party on Friday and judges are welcome. Reps aren't allowed to drink at the event, but judges certainly are, and do all the time. Everyone is allowed to eat and visit with each other. To spend the whole evening in one teams camp might be inappropriate though, since they will have to be prepping for the contest at some point. Use your head, it's not that hard. I don't think KCBS has a solid stance on this. (Gee, what a surprise). Someone told Dave or Tim that the judges were free to do as they please on Friday. True. But.............

I don't think whoever said that was thinking that the judge would be cooking dinner in the teams camp. Maybe that's OK, since it was clearly appetizers and a prime rib, which had no place in this cookoff. I still think it was a questionable idea, since the teams spices, sauces and meat were all in close proximety to the cooking, and the teams pit was being used. One could easily have thought Phil was cooking with this team if they'd stopped for a visit. When Phil was prepping a pile of ribs in the team area at 8:00pm, it definitely looked wrong and that's when we talked about it.

I think Tim is on the right track. If you're coming to judge, do that. Hang out and visit on Friday, but don't plan to cook anything. If you want to cook, just pass on the judging the next day, you can still have fun and eat lots of BBQ. I don't think you should do both.

That's my opinion.

MoKanMeathead
11-10-2005, 08:58 AM
Excellent thread! I am a cook and a CBJ and here is an experience that hapened to me this year. I went to a contest to just hang out with a couple of teams on Friday and stick around for the awards to cheer them on. I even slept (well Ok passed out in a chair but thats another thread) under one of the team's tent. I had no intentions of judging.

Saturday morning the contest organizer asked if I would judge since he had 15 judges that were no shows. I told him I would and from that point forward I avoided the teams until after judging. I might also add that I did not help cook or offer advice to any of the teams.

Yes the judging is blind, however I knew a couple of these teams very well and have cooked with some of them or they have cooked with me in the past. I was very concerned that I might recognize an entry but didn't - until the brisket came around. As soon as they opened the very last brisket box I immediately recognized it. I thought about disqualifying myself but that would not have been fair to any other other competitors. I decided to continue judging and feel that I judged ALL of the entries as impartial as possible. The brisket I recognized was OK but not great and I judged it accordingly.

If this were to happen to me again I wold turn down the offer to judge - simply because of the negative perception that some people could have had. I think that if a Brother is judging that it is certainly acceptable (and EXPECTED) to stop buy other Brethern teams on Friday night and hang out - eat, drink and enjoy. However as soon as that team starts to prep their meat or otherwise get ready for the contest it is time to leave. Stop by on Saturday but only to shake hands and introduce yourself - don't hang out while the entries are being prepared. Several Brothers judged the Hermann, MO event this year that I cooked and all of them stoped by for an introduction. I would have loved to have them come in for a drink or two but one, I was busy, and two they were judges.

I think most of us can maintain our impartiality but as others have mentioned - perception is reality - at least in the eyes of the perceiver. I think there are some judges that have recognized an entry or two. The "no marking" tries to prevent that but as you become familiar with some of the teams you just know what their product looks like. Hopefully when this happens the entries are being judged fairly.

jminion
11-10-2005, 03:16 PM
As Ray stated judges hanging out on Friday night it is done all the time. Judges cooking with the teams on Friday is not happening much and if someone wants to look for a reason to bitch it could give them a reason (real or not).

Judges are asked not to mix with the teams on Sat. Just recently an offical position was taken on telling judges who food it was they judged, it is not to be done.

drbbq
11-10-2005, 03:22 PM
Just so everyone understands what you're talking about Jim.
There has been kind of an unwritten rule, that if a judge asks a rep AFTER judging, whose food he had just eaten, the rep would tell them. What this created was regular judges getting very familiar with some regular cooks entries, and some of these judges even began boasting that they had judged team x or team y today. Then a rumor began that some judges were scoring team x or team y down, for whatever reason. Then the rumor changed that these judges were scoring team x or team y up, instead of down.
It was all bad for the system, and I commend the board for stopping it.

kcpellethead
11-10-2005, 05:50 PM
I did not read every response here. I tried to, but damn you guys are serious about this topic (read – long winded), so forgive me if I duplicate somebody else’s answers or ideas. I’m excited that this topic has created such interest and discussion, because I believe it’s all about making competition barbecue better.

First off, every situation is unique. A couple things that make Phil’s experience different from others is wearing a logo that is common to a couple teams and prepping & cooking in a contest site. I realize it wasn’t either team’s actual logo, but two teams where flying these logos. I am a firm believer that perception is greater than reality. As cooks, we understand that judges make friends with teams. It happens quite frequently. It’s become common to see some judges out on Friday evening enjoying the camaraderie of the cook teams.

If a judge decides to hangout with one team on Friday night, they should use their best discretion in deciding when it might not be appropriate to be there. For example, when the team is prepping meat or putting meat on the cookers. It goes without saying that judges should not be involved in prepping or cooking in a team’s space. However innocent, if a team unfamiliar to the situation saw Phil prepping ribs on Friday night in a contest site and entering the judging tent on Saturday, I can see where they might express some concern.

For those of us that don’t feel a judge in our camp on Friday evening is a problem, would it be different if it were three judges? How about six judges or even a dozen judges? If your answer is “yes,” you should probably rethink your opinion on a single judge in your spot. We should all use our best judgment in these situations and try to see these situations in the eyes of an outsider.

Great dialogue!

slat
11-10-2005, 08:31 PM
I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

MilitantSquatter
11-10-2005, 09:21 PM
KCpellethead's comment made me re-think my position, although I was somewhat on the fence leaning the opposite way in my first post... One judge may not seem like a big deal, but when you start talking about groups of three +, that's not fair and can definitely lead to finger pointing down the road.

I know think that hanging out on Friday's,meet and greet on Sat's before things get down to business etc are OK, but definitely no cooking, helping etc... mainly because of the perception it breeds, even it their is no merit to the true intention of the judge or team involved.

The_Kapn
11-10-2005, 11:12 PM
Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

spicewine
11-11-2005, 07:47 AM
What's this about Phil wanting to pinch my butt!!:eek:

BrooklynQ
11-11-2005, 08:43 AM
Don't we all? :wink:

smokincracker
11-11-2005, 11:56 AM
I don’t want to beat this one to death but I think this is very relevant! This was the first chance I have had to put this up.

Prior to my Smokin’ Cracker BBQ Team I was involved with cooking some FBA contests with another team that was sponsored by a men’s club/organization similar to the Brethren. The club is called The Good Ole Boys Supper Club in Sebring, Florida with approx 100 members. The competition cooking team consists of about 4-5 guys and we cooked at only a few FBA events in our surrounding areas as they still do. One of the members of the organization Jon Doe and his wife are certified KCBS & FBA judges. At one of the events we were competing at Jon Doe and his wife were scheduled to judge the event. Upon arriving at the contest mid morning on Saturday my friend Jon Doe & wife stopped by for a quick visit and was very careful not to loiter. During his brief visit the FBA rep visited us and she asked my friend not to judge the contest due to the fact he was wearing a Good ole Boys hat similar to the ones we were wearing and the perception was not good, as questions had arisen by others competing. His wife was permitted to judge. This man was not part of the competition cooking team but just a member of the club. Real Life Experience

Even after that experience. It never crossed my mind that Phil was in our camps or how others may have perceived his presence.
I think the Prime Rib juice blinded me.

Chew on that Farkers

Smoker
11-11-2005, 01:55 PM
Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

Then it goes back to getting an answer from the KCBS people. I will do whatever we decide as a group since I don't want to upset anyone in the Brethren. If there are no rules about what judges can and can't do then I don't seeing them taking away a GC or a RC from someone because someone complained. To me it keeps going back to integrity. I always give people the benefit of the doubt to start.

Solidkick
11-11-2005, 05:29 PM
I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

Well stated, and exactly my thoughts! I knew there was a reason I liked you, Slat!

wsm
11-11-2005, 06:39 PM
This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.

Solidkick
11-12-2005, 07:31 AM
This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.

That's if you "planned" to judge from the beginning.....sometimes, you're pressed into action, like myself and my wife, when you go to visit a comp. Thus, that's why you saw me in my Brethren hat and Beta Beta Que t shirt at Herman. We were there to support our brothers in smoke.

slat
11-13-2005, 06:55 PM
When an event doesn't have enough judges they pull them from where ever they can get them, whether you are a CBJ or not. I would rather have a guy sitting under the tent with a team hat or shirt on than someone who is sitting there dumbfounded. Chances are that person with a team hat or shirt on either knows how to Que or at least has a good understanding of it.
Who would you want to judge your Que. If I competed I would want the guy who is wearing the hat or shirt. I think he would be fairer than the dumbfounded person who is more than likely giving everybody 9's.

qman
11-13-2005, 07:41 PM
Slat, you are right on, as far as logical, thinking ADULTS go. Obviously, I would prefer some one who was apparently connected to the Q world to be in the judging tent.

wsm
11-13-2005, 08:12 PM
A big difference between brother Kick and I are saying is that usually I go to a comp PLANNING on judging - if I can say HI to my friends and give them best wishes, that is a bonus - but Brother Kick went to the comp to see his brothers and perhaps share an adult beverage or two - then he was drafted. When he was with his pals he didn't know that he was going to judge, but I did know and I think the rules covering MY conduct should me more stringent then those on Brer Kick.

rookiedad
11-13-2005, 08:45 PM
i have a couple of points to make but take into consideration that i have never been in a competition so if i go astray of what is right in the competition world please let me know.
as far as i know there are no KCBS rules against Phil's actions. in a gentlemans game all participants agree to the rules before entering and show trust in the integrity of the other participants actions throughout.
people need to know more about the bbq brethren! as far as i can see we are not exclusive. i dont see the reason for people to suspect a non exclusive group of cheating. in fact if a team really wanted to cheat couldn't they just work with a judge behind the scenes, and then just enter a competition simultaniously. also if folks knew that the brethren was a nationwide group whose members somewhat rarely get a chance to get together it might look suspicious if we don't hang out.
now if we did make a standard of conduct above and beyond the rules as a courtesy to other contestants and as not to draw uneeded suspicion to ourselves this would not be such a bad thing as any evolving group sometimes needs to govern itself.
phil

Sawdustguy
11-13-2005, 11:35 PM
Phil,

I understand what you are saying. To a rookie team like mine, we could care less because the odds of winning an event at this point is slim. To the better teams though, they are competing for some relatively big bucks. Grand Champions can take home anywhere from $3000 to $8000 for a large contest. As soon as money enters the picture, things change.

Ron_L
05-21-2007, 06:01 PM
It's been a coupl eof years since we beat this one to death :-D, but I'm judging my first competition this coming weekend, aqnd I plan on walking around (incognito, of course :roll:) on Saturday evening (it is a Saturday-Sunday competition) to visit the Brethren teams and the whole gaggle of local teams that I have gotten to know at other comps. The consensus from the old posts seems to be: Visit, stay out front and out of the cooking area, and don't fly any one's colors. Do you all still agree with this?

The_Kapn
05-21-2007, 06:44 PM
This is one of the few "resurrections" that we have suffered recently that really warrant it--thanks :lol:

This was a grand and enlightening discussion that holds true today.
Thanks to all that provided input!
Brethren Integrity!

TIM

Moderator's Note--I just made this a Sticky--I think it is that important!

SloppyQ
05-21-2007, 08:13 PM
It's been a coupl eof years since we beat this one to death :-D, but I'm judging my first competition this coming weekend, aqnd I plan on walking around (incognito, of course :roll:) on Saturday evening (it is a Saturday-Sunday competition) to visit the Brethren teams and the whole gaggle of local teams that I have gotten to know at other comps. The consensus from the old posts seems to be: Visit, stay out front and out of the cooking area, and don't fly any one's colors. Do you all still agree with this?

Agreed Ron, I will be doing the same this weekend and I plan on having a good time in a tasteful manner as to not create a problem for any brethren teams.

Smokin Gator
05-22-2007, 08:17 AM
Thanks to Ron for resurrecting this and to Tim for making it a sticky. I had never ran across this one and it was very relevent to me.

I will be judging my first contest in a couple of weeks. It is close to my hometown and I have been looking forward to seeing some of the Brethren I met at my first comp a month ago and meeting some new Brothers (to me) as well. I will try to say hello to everyone on Friday night... maybe share a beer and a laugh and then move on.

Saturday after judging I will be glad to help anyone with any breakdown or whatever but will not go by anyone's area on Saturday morning.

pigmaker23
05-22-2007, 05:29 PM
The 2007 Judges CD they play at the Judges Meeting clearly states that no judge shall fraternize with any team the the day of the contest until the judging has been completed. The old rule was no contact after the judges meeting had been held. In either case the night before is OK, and with all things, everything in moderation.....

ModelMaker
05-28-2007, 10:32 AM
It's really too bad that KCBS changed the no frat rule to ANY contact the morning of the contest. There were a couple contests I judged last year that I didn't make Fri. night. I showed up early to walk through and say hi to teams I met before and to meet some new teams ( this is why I judge).
I never stayed long and just made chit-chat and after the judges meeting stayed clear. Apparently a few have ruined it for all.
ModelMaker

Jeff Hughes
05-28-2007, 03:52 PM
The reason the KCBS changed the Saturday rule is that some judges were abusing their status(in their own minds). Some judges felt they could waltz into a camp, poke around, open the smoker, and generally act like the had no boundries.

If you've ever competed, you know that Saturday morning flat out not the time for chit chat...

MilitantSquatter
05-28-2007, 04:37 PM
Jeff - Where did you get that info from ? I don't recall ever hearing that as the reason.. Much different than what was posted in earlier posts..

Jeff Hughes
05-29-2007, 06:17 AM
I learned that from Merl Whitebrook.

I'm sure the conflict of interest issues came into play as well.

J Appledog
06-06-2007, 09:11 PM
I judge a bit, compete a little and am a KCBS rep-in-training. How do I identify fellow Brethren?

The_Kapn
06-06-2007, 10:05 PM
I judge a bit, compete a little and am a KCBS rep-in-training. How do I identify fellow Brethren?

Identifying Brethren is really not central to this thread.
I hope it is about the awareness of "perceptions" as we compete and judge.

Beyond that--some teams have bought banners, tee shirts, and "whatever" with our distinctive logo.

Otherwise, look for Margarita machines, boom/karaoke boxes, and other signs of demented cookers among the party crowd. :lol:

And, finally, print a list of the "Brethren Members Teams" and take it with you :lol:

TIM

J Appledog
06-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Where does one buy t-shirts or "whatever" with the logo? I know few cookers who aren't a bit demented, Tim!

The list is a good idea....

Mooner
06-06-2007, 10:40 PM
This is the first time I have seen this thread and as I have been reading through the posts I think this topic is great. I am not a judge but do compete. I have not had this issue come up so I have never even thought about it but as I was reading I have to agree with Dr BBQ's first post on the second page. Obviously double blind judging is there to eliminate judges from knowing who's entries are who's. This should permanently and forever eliminate anyone's complaining if a judge is hanging out with any one team no matter what the circumstances. I see Ray's point about Poobah cooking prime rib in one of our guys tents and think it was a very classy call to make just getting them to take a look at what was going on. We all know that it's very difficult to realize that you may be doing something stupid when you obviously don't have it in your head that you are. But I will say that although these competitions are expensive and time consuming and a lot of us take this sport very seriously, there is a reason we all do this. I don't even think it's really all about BBQ. It's the comraderie! Where else can you go and drink beer with your best friends, hang out all night without the wives nagging you, compete in something you love with the passion that makes life grand? In my opinion if you take away the hanging out or comraderie the sport dies, period! Again I see the gray area and think this topic is fantastic but bbq cooks are judges and vice versa so the same people who compete with their friends, judge their friends and so on. Forbid that friendship and you will end up with no one wanting to judge, thus no competition. Make judging triple blind and blindfold the damn judges lol cause I'm hanging out with my bbq brothers until the sun comes up Saturday morning. At that time I will clink my coffe cup with my friends and bid them farewell and good luck cause I have a job to do and that job is to find the best bbq cooks in the world, no matter if they are my brothers or not. This is the way it should be. Use your farking head, get out of the tent when Saturday rolls around, don't touch the pit Friday night, go around and wish all the teams good luck cause even though they may not be a member of our site we are all in fact brothers in barbecue. Some of us are just smarter than others and know to hang with the cool crowd. :biggrin:

Rub
06-06-2007, 11:22 PM
I'm just disappointed I didn't get any of the prime rib in Key Largo back in 2005... :cry:

...of course I probably didn't know any of you back then...

Big Tom
06-08-2007, 08:24 AM
I'm a late bloomer at this party, but I strongly agree with the intent of the original post.

At the KCBS events that we cook in we are still newbys, but we do see an occasional judge or team that crosses over from the MIM/MBA circuit and so we will visit, drink, bs etc. if they take time to stop in. I don't think any ammount of fraternization with judges is really going to give any team a distinct advantage in the circuits that are all-blind judging.

The MIM/MBA still uses the on-site judging for the preliminary and most finals rounds. The thoughts of impropriety and questions of judges integrity really buzz through some teams when they see folks that party and socialize specifically with certain teams on Friday night turn out to be judging some of those same teams on Saturday afternoon. The contest reps do instruct the judges of fairness and impartiality during the Saturday morning judges briefing, but as was mentioned very early on this thread, someone's perception is their reality and then the behind the back accusations can get started.

When I judge at MIM/MBA contests I sometimes get selected for on-site judging. I occasionally will draw a team or teams that I am great friends with, but because of what I expect of them as cooks and other judges when I am being judged. I judge as I am instructed and don't play any favorites or try and sabotage anyones efforts.

We can all hope that all the judges in all the circuits will conduct themselves with the highest level of integrity, regardless of how much time they spend with a team or what they do before they step into the tent for the serious Saturday stuff.

TroyGirl
04-25-2008, 11:00 AM
Hey guys, if it looks bad, it is bad! There is no such thing as paranoia in competition.

motley que
08-26-2008, 02:12 PM
I wear my ha( when I judge but stay away until turn ins are done. I may know what bros are competing but no way to know whose q is whos

backporchbbq
08-26-2008, 05:02 PM
Personally I would not have a problem if I saw a judge sitting with a competitior. They have boxes with numbers for a reason, and then they put different numbers on the box when you turn it in. It would be extremely difficult for a judge to figure out who it was. I have seen judges sitting with competitiors before and never thought twice, and they were wearing their name takes and a judges shirt.

People are just looking for something to complain about, if they got GC they would not complain. If they do poorly there are people that will complain how far away they were from the judges tent and multiple other things.

You can't make everyone happy all of the time. I understand that you don't want to give off the perception of favoritism. I would say hanging out the day before is ok, but the day of turn ins don't stop by until after judging is complete. Have a beer with our brothers in smoke and help clean up. That way no one could say that there was favoritism.

This is just MO.

CajunSmoker
08-26-2008, 06:09 PM
Personally I would not have a problem if I saw a judge sitting with a competitior. They have boxes with numbers for a reason, and then they put different numbers on the box when you turn it in. It would be extremely difficult for a judge to figure out who it was. I have seen judges sitting with competitiors before and never thought twice, and they were wearing their name takes and a judges shirt.

People are just looking for something to complain about, if they got GC they would not complain. If they do poorly there are people that will complain how far away they were from the judges tent and multiple other things.

You can't make everyone happy all of the time. I understand that you don't want to give off the perception of favoritism. I would say hanging out the day before is ok, but the day of turn ins don't stop by until after judging is complete. Have a beer with our brothers in smoke and help clean up. That way no one could say that there was favoritism.

This is just MO.

I like that whole concept:biggrin:

Big George's BBQ
08-27-2008, 08:40 AM
I have to agree with my son, Josh, Back Porch BBQ.

dsmith4238
11-27-2008, 12:03 PM
I have been judging for years and would love to hang with the cooks and maybe get some pointers. I tried to do this at one contest and was told that i was removed form the judge list and would not beable to judge in that contest. Since then I have not even walked thru the cookers to get to the judges tent.

smoke showin'
11-30-2008, 07:26 PM
I don't feel it is appropriate for judges to linger with teams it just looks bad and if one of those teams were to win it all it is even more suspect in the eyes of teams who didn't

Pig Headed
11-30-2008, 07:42 PM
I have been judging for years and would love to hang with the cooks and maybe get some pointers. I tried to do this at one contest and was told that i was removed form the judge list and would not beable to judge in that contest. Since then I have not even walked thru the cookers to get to the judges tent.

Why don't you ask a team to pit beotch for them for a weekend and forgo judging that contest. Then you'll be able to see what goes on from the cooks point of view. It may give you a new perspective.

KuyasKitchen
12-01-2008, 01:24 AM
I'm really glad to see this discussion here (even though it was three years ago). High ethical standards are very important.

From a BBQ competition layman's point of view, I would say judges should refrain from contact with teams as soon as food prep beings ... that means as soon as someone reaches for a container of salt, vanish.

Less fun? Sure. But, that's part of maintaining one's honor.

Cyclops
12-17-2008, 11:49 PM
This topic was beaten to DEATH repeatedly last winter on the KCBS Rep forum. After all the smoke cleared, the day before (and evening) a contest is personal time and does not require seperation between judges and cooks. The day of the contest,(and yes, we discussed whether or not that meant 12:01:01 AM) Judges may walk the venue and exchange greetings with the cooks. However, judges should not "hang" with the teams until after the last category has been judged. On a more personal note, I certainly haven't had the pleasure to meet many of the cooks nationwide, but of the 100, or so, that I have met, NONE of them would be willing to cheat to win! Sure, some of them are buttheads, but cheats? Not hardly!

Suzy Que
02-11-2009, 12:24 AM
We have competed and judged for years. It is my understanding that with KCBS there is to be no fraternizing the day of turn-in. We know alot of the teams cooking and can't wait to talk with them, but we do wait until after the judging is complete. After all, I would hope that integrity is still a part of the picture. When you step in the judge's tent, you are a judge...just do your job fair and square. I have also personally worked as a volunteer at the turn-in table at several events. It would be tough to get past the number transfer, because it varies based on the rep at the event. Most reps only have one other person who even knows the conversion that day. They take it pretty serious and rightly so. AS a cook, I want the juding to be fair too. I do have to agree that after a while you may think you know who's box you have. But again, you judge each ENTRY on its own merit...block that out of your head, be that person of integrity and do what you signed up to do. If you can't then you don't need to be judging. The folks that get hung up in all the garbage are forgetting the spirit of the bbq community...good people and good times.

Boss Hog Wild
04-20-2009, 09:03 PM
As an organizer and a CBJ our event follows some basic rules. As a judge I don't care who you spend time with, or talk to, or drink with the night before turn in. On the day of turn in, I expect NO judges to be talking with, drinking with, or socializing with teams until after the judging is completed. As far as clothing goes..... on the day of judging I like to see blue or maroon KCBS shirts... and that is usually all that I see. I have never had a problem with the two mixing things up. I respect my teams, and I respect my judges..... And I expect everyone to do the same.

Of course we have a fenced in event and admission gates. Judges come in that morning and are led to the judges tent where they have breakfast items waiting for them. Then they have their meeting. After that they are free to wander until the first turn in time.... But they all seem to know that wandering by the teams is a no no......

chambeja
05-25-2009, 11:36 AM
Excellent post and great discussion. I'm a relatively new CBJ and more experienced backyard cooker. I don't pretend to speak for KCBS, but in the book they give you at CBJ training, it offers the following "Instructions for Judges"

"Contest Weekend:

Do not fraternize with teams. Limit your visiting time with any team.

Do not visit with teams after Judge's Orientation."

Hope this helps the discussion. And putting in a plug for Table Captains. The TCs present your food and help your judges for little or no reward. Adding a seventh serving is entirely within the rules, will offer insurance against getting DQ'd if two of your portions don't get cut apart cleanly, and will give your table captains something to eat, which they don't get otherwise!

EggliciousQ
07-26-2009, 09:08 PM
As a KCBS CBJ we are told not to mingle with any cooks on turn in day. Also as some one else noted it is a double blind judging and the table captain's and judge's look for marked containers. I have been a CBJ for four years and have judged nineteen contest. I go to the contests to meet new friends and learn more about BBQ for myself. I like to talked with the cookers on Friday afternoon and evening but stay away on turn in day.

Lake Dogs
07-30-2009, 08:59 AM
Certified MBN/MBA judge here; judged too many to count (60+). Like with anything, there are good judges and not-so-good judges. However, in all of my judging, sanctioned BBQ or not, I dont recall ever a time where I saw or felt like a judge was showing some favoritism. Ever. Hasn't happened. Whether they socialized with teams or not, I've never seen even a hint of it. After judging/scoring is over, we'd THEN (and only then) discuss them. Come to find out. 90% of the time we all agreed on which one was best. The other 10% were when there were 2 great Q's at the table and they'd reverse the order of first to second. That's it.

Many of the judges also compete. Some of us, dare I say it, also compete in other
non-BBQ sanctioned competitions. Me; I'm a CASI chili guy.

Anyway, I can tell you, unless the container is marked (which is an immediate disqualification in any type of a sanctioned event), there is no way to discern one
product from another; not when sitting at the judges table.

Side note, as earlier stated, MIM/MBN also has on-site judging. Yes, I can see where
it's possible here to show favoritism, and that's one reason I dont care for that
portion of MIM/MBA. However, I can tell you, none of them have ever won a contest
as a result of their on-site scores. So, in fact, it matters not. The only way it could
matter is if you're scored WAY WAY WAY down (on-site I mean) so that your product
doesn't make it to finals table. That *could* happen technically, but again, as 3
judges judge each, and things that *stand out* are thrown out, I doubt that it's ever happened.

I now also compete, and I'll guarantee that my buddies cannot tell my Q from anyone
else's when it comes across the table.

Just my humble opinion.

QansasjayhawQ
10-07-2009, 11:30 PM
You know, I've read this thread three or four times over the last couple of years . . . and it's a good one. That's why I keep coming back to it.

Now that I am finishing up my second 'season' of judging, I feel compelled to add my two cents here.

There is no way . . . no way AT ALL . . . for a judge in a KCBS sanctioned event to tell whose BBQ they are judging. Now, with that said, yes. I DO seem to 'recognize' some of the entries. The entries I do 'recognize' are certainly unique - and they are some of the best BBQ I've ever imagined possible. But do I have any idea, specifically, who that entry belongs to? No way.

AND

I cannot imagine even beginning to think about being a serious BBQ competitor without having judged, as the Grand Pubah says, at least five or six competitions.

The entire reason I even started judging was because I realized that we (HawgsNHeifers) had no idea what "IT" was that we were shooting for. Now I know. And our scores have gone downhill ever since! Yes, that's true - but we are adjusting with our new found knowledge.

Some people play golf for a hobby. Some people take their boats out to the lake. I judge BBQ and I take that very seriously.

Hawgsnheifers
10-18-2009, 10:48 AM
In my 3 short years of competing, which is just one comp a year, (Smoke in the Spring, Osage City Kansas) and looking over results from other midwest competitions, it's amazing how many of the same teams seem to take walks. Perhaps it's because it's the same general pool of judges that seem to be around here and they all like sort of the same taste. Understanding what that taste is is hard to duplicate if your never on the receiving (judge) end. Like David said, if you've never been there, how do you know unless your just lucky to do it right the first time. If I had that kind of luck I would drive directly to the casino after the awards.
I guess you either need to cook it the way you like it or the way the judges like it...

SteveG13
12-20-2009, 01:41 PM
Clearly the spirit of competition is alive within this thread and bbq'ers alike. Blind judging is important so that competitors dont feel awkward and uneasy when they might see a judge shooting the breeze with a cooker/friend.

Squeel Appeal
12-30-2009, 06:12 AM
Me it is my humble opinion that Cookers make the best judges, we have more insight into what good BBQ is and what too look for. I am a cooker and a Master Judge with the South Carolina BBQ Association. Let me tell you there is no way in blind judging you can tell who cooked what , the only thing we get is the nuber on the box to go by. While judging I wont go around the teams till juding is over but if somebody says good morming when I walk by it only good manners to say it back to em.

Below is what it takes to be a BBQ Judge with the SCBA in South Carolina.

SCBA Requirements
To become a Judge, Certified Judge and Master Judge
 
The SCBA membership dues are a low $35 annually for an individual or only $45 for a family. After the basic dues are paid the Certification Seminar is only $20.
Members receive notices of activities, invitations to events and an apron and certification certificates when they are certified. They also receive hats when they make Senior Judge and Master Judge.
Rank Requirements

SCBA Barbeque Judge = Completed the Seminar and ready to judge a contest
Certified SCBA Judge = 1) Completed the course 2) Judged in four different contest, 2 which are SCBA events.
3) Available to judge or work in the Carolina Q Cup
4) Paid your dues

SCBA Senior Judge = 1) Completed the course and any subsequent course2) Judged in 15 contest, 5 of which are different, 10 (total) which are SCBA events.3) Judged in or worked in a Carolina Q Cups, 4) Cooked with a team in a contest.
5) Paid your dues

SCBA Master Judge = 1) Completed the course and any subsequent course 2) Judged in 30 contest, 10 of which are different, 25 (total) which are SCBA events.
3) Judged or worked in 2 different Carolina Q Cups
4) Cooked with at least three teams
5) Paid your dues

Judges may, after they have judged in two different SCBA contests, complete some of their requirements by filling out Restaurant Judging Sheets. These sheets come in packs of 5 (stapled together) and should remain together. A judge may complete one set of 5 restaurants judgings to count as one contest towards becoming a Certified Judge. A Certified Judge may complete three sets of 5 (15 total) to count as three contests towards his Senior Judge’s requirement. A Senior Judge may complete 6 sets of 5 (30 total) to count as 6 contests towards his Master Judge’s requirements.

Falcon 83
12-30-2009, 07:58 AM
To second what Squeel Appeal noted, as have others previously, I arrive about an hour before the judges sign-in time. I enjoy walking around the cooking area and breathing deeply. If only Yankee Candle could create what you cooking teams do in the way of pleasant scent. If I make eye contact with anyone, I usually say "Good morning" or "Good luck." It is only good manners and is acceptable to KCBS. If for some reason the conversation appears to want to be continued, I'll make the comment that if its okay with the team involved, I'll be back after the scoring is completed. This always seems acceptable as both sides know the rules.

deena
03-01-2010, 05:13 PM
I've been competing and judging in the PNWBA for the last six years and we have implemented a great bar-coding system for the boxes which makes it impossible for anyone to know who's box is who's. In addition we taste each meat individually so there's no comparing entries. I think that most judges are very careful to judge fairly. There is always one or two out there you can't control.

woodwardbbq
03-14-2010, 02:54 PM
I have been judging for two years and hanging out on turn in day is a no no. The rules state that judges may not fraternize with teams on turn in day until conclusion of judging.Thats it. I have seen judges talking to teams on turn in day before judging , but not in the team area. Personally, I will pass on this. I like to talk to the teams the evening before and have a good time. I make sure that I do not have my judge shirts on. I also do not eat there food that is the same as there turn in food. Many judges visit with teams if they are in town the evening before. They just don't avertise it. I agree that commen sense will prevail.

Squeel Appeal
03-15-2010, 06:21 AM
The only exception that I will make on the morning of turn ins if while walking thru the pit areas to get to the judging area is if anyone says good morning to myself or my wife. I will usually reply "good morning and good luck" and keep walking. Its comes down to manners, will I go into the pits nope I save that for when the judging is over with. I have seen judges walk by and ignore the cookers or just plain put thier hands up to stop the conversation.

Navchop
05-27-2010, 10:06 PM
I judged my first comp this last weekend at Chesapeake and thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't go speak to the teams before the judging, but I did talk to the ones I knew and wanted to know after wards.


I was amazed at the number of judges that didn't know any of the teams and didn't go talk to them after the judging. I think the teams are great and very approachable. I enjoy talking to them and look forward to the day when I'm competing. I'm not in a position now to have my own team and my job doesn't allow me to plan on attending competitions except for the last minute.

I will continue to judge until I can cook on my own team and help on a team if I can't judge.

Warthog
07-14-2010, 07:38 AM
I did my first judging in Wildwood NJ this past weekend. I made a point of trying to say hello to all the Brethren competing there that weekend. I did this on Saturday before the Sunday turn in. On judging day I went to the judging tent and signed in. Did not leave the tent till judging was completed. After the experience of my first judging I do not see any way that there could be cheating by the judges. I am not a competition BBQ'er but do a lot of smoking and grilling for friends and family. After the judging was completed I walked around again to say hello to my fellow Brethren. My wife was with me and we both had a wonderful time.

bbq.tom
11-30-2010, 09:03 AM
Been judging for a while now (KCBS, MBN, and North Carolina Pork Council) and just wanted to say that I'd never visit with a cooking team the day of the competition - before the competition! A curteous "Hey!" or something is acceptable, but no detailed discussion of their meat, cooker, technique, or anything else is right.

Just my two cents. Those who do "fraternize" give the rest of us a bad name. I've never been able to tell one team's Q from another as they do a GREAT job in concealing the identity of the teams on the boxes.

bingo1912
12-04-2010, 05:02 AM
This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.

Judging gear? what is judging gear? Teeth? lol

(just being funny)

On a more serious note. I have only been judging with the PNWBA since I took the class earlier this year.. I agree, it would be very difficult if not impossible for a judge to know who''s is who''s. I love to see what they are doing, say hi. but. I never go into the cooks area on the day of the contest. I wouldn't want even the hint of any wrongdoing to taint my credibility as a judge. Even if I did know who had cooked the dish I would give it an honest score because as someone has said earlier. If you don't get an honest answer you can't make adjustments to correct your Q to be a prize winner in the future. I am a cook and I always want people to tell me what they REALLY think, otherwise I'll cook it that way again. And if you didn't like it the first time I doubt you will like it any better next time,, lol
Great thread.
Thanks Poob
Gary

Sammy_Shuford
01-10-2011, 02:01 AM
This has been a good read for me. Just completed the judges training, and will judge mt first comp 26 Feb 2011.

QansasjayhawQ
01-21-2011, 02:03 PM
The only exception that I will make on the morning of turn ins if while walking thru the pit areas to get to the judging area is if anyone says good morning to myself or my wife. I will usually reply "good morning and good luck" and keep walking. Its comes down to manners, will I go into the pits nope I save that for when the judging is over with. I have seen judges walk by and ignore the cookers or just plain put thier hands up to stop the conversation.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being civil towards each other - the spirit of the rule is that no information should be exchanged between any of the teams and the judges. The letter of the rule is written to be as simple and clear as possible. I don't see anything wrong at all with wishing each other a good morning.

Arlin_MacRae
01-21-2011, 04:39 PM
And that's what I will do at a comp we judge. I learned from Rookie Dave that there are times you can say hi, there are times you should just stay away, and there are times you'll be too busy to talk!

bover
01-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I think it was best explained to us during the judges meeting at the Blue Springs Blaze-Off this year. In respect to hanging out in the competition area on turn-in day, as long as you're walking you're just an observer. As soon as you stop to talk you're fraternizing. As much as I like to cuss and discuss things with my fellow meat artists, when I'm judging I just stay away completely on Saturday.

bbq.tom
02-02-2011, 10:54 AM
Judging gear? what is judging gear? Teeth? lol




MOST CBJs can be distinguished by the hat or vest or jacket or whatever they put all of their comp pins on. Also, most KCBS CBJs wear their burgandy-colored CBJ shirt or their royal blue Master Barbecue Judge shirt. Almost ALL judges also wear a "Judge" badge hung around their neck or pinned onto their clothes. ALL of these items are considered "Judging gear".

Just saying... :-D

mossyoak
03-06-2011, 09:30 AM
I am headed to my first KCBS judging class here in Omaha and I am pretty excited about it. I have helped at a few competitions and what to see the other side of how the judging side works from the tastes to the presentation of boxes. For those of you who have taken these classes, are the worth the money?

Thanks,
Mossyoak

bingo1912
03-06-2011, 04:19 PM
I really enjoy being a judge, the only drawback is the judges meeting which turns out to be more like the judges class all over again, however it is necessary because there are a lot of judges that haven't judged for a while so the refresher can be a good thing.
I am originally took the judging class so I would know what the judges were looking for, now I know how far I have to go as far as my BBQ goes. It has been very enlightening for me, as well as rewarding. I would say the class is very much worth it.
Good luck and welcome.
:grin:

Rookie'48
03-06-2011, 11:02 PM
For those of you who have taken these classes, are the worth the money?
Thanks,
Mossyoak

Yes, I think that the class is worth the money. That being said, the class will only give you an overview of the rules & the judging process.
Your real learning will start at your first contest after you've finished scoring the chickie, or what ever else might be the first catagory that day. Then you will hear the other judges at your table talk quietly amongst themselves about what you have just tasted: "What did you think about #2 ..... #4 tasted salty and raw ..... #3 was one of the best that I've ever had ....." and so on. Listen to what the others are saying. You might dissagree but you will have some idea of how the other judges scored each entry & why.
For my first 4 or 5 contests I told my Table Captain that I was a new judge & asked if he / she would keep an eye on my scores & let me know if I was way off from the other judges. I didn't want to be giving 6s & 7s if the others were giving 8s & 9s. Or vice versa.
Jump in there & judge a few comps. Have fun. Come out to a few comps on Friday evening, walk up to a team & tell them that you're a new judge who wants to learn all that you can about BBQ.
95% of the teams that I know will tell you to come on in, sit down, have a beer & ask away.

LongTong
03-07-2011, 11:28 AM
It's well worth the money! You'll learn a lot about BBQ, taste some of the best BBQ on the planet, meet new friends, experience places you've never been to and it includes the $35 membership for KCBS...You can't go wrong.

mossyoak
04-24-2011, 11:55 AM
I will be judging my first KCBS event in a month and I am looking forward to it. I have friends who will be competing and enjoy being with them on a regular basis.

How to act really concerned me UNTIL I found out I can still hang with them UNTIL it was time to judge and then I have to be a judge and nothing more or less. It is an honor to be able to taste all the great BBQ out there and give the score in which I think they have earned...

WISH ME LUCK.

bbq.tom
04-26-2011, 09:52 AM
Another "worth it" aspect of judging is that you usually get to take home your "left-overs" from judging. Six slices of brisket with only a bite or two out of each equates to enough left to add to stif-fry and serve my wife and myself for dinner last night. I also used the left over pulled-pork to make pork-fried rice. The left-over chicken and ribs are nice snack/lunch items too.

Just saying...

bbqbrad
07-24-2011, 10:45 AM
This is a segment from a post on my BBQ blog from a few years ago at a small cometiton that was local...

"
The guy who won was next to me. Swept all categories. I tried his ribs and was impressed. Good baby backs. He was giving away free samples to everyone, trying to drum up business for his catering company. But the thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is when I overheard a conversation between him and a guy in a blue shirt with something about a church on the front. Before the judging, the guy tasted a rib, was enjoying it, and told the cook that he was a judge.

Hmmmmm…..

I’m not saying that there was cheating. I’m NOT saying that the cook led a judge. But all of us cooks had our team number on the ground next to our cook site (he was 10). And this judge went there and tried the product. Then he went back to the judge’s area and saw the boxes with the number 10 written on top of the boxes in sharpie. And he definitely saw his new friend’s box with the ribs he liked. And he saw his new friend’s entire box with the other two boxes right next to it, also with the number 10 on it. I don’t think that one judge can change a winner or a loser.

Oops…. I forgot. Number 10 won ribs by 1 point. One point difference between first and second. I didn’t count how many other blue shirts with something about a church on the front there were.


I will say that that looks real suspicious."

Just my opinion. Never put yourself in a iffy situation.

bbq.tom
07-25-2011, 08:05 AM
This is a segment from a post on my BBQ blog from a few years ago at a small cometiton that was local...

"
The guy who won was next to me. Swept all categories. I tried his ribs and was impressed. Good baby backs. He was giving away free samples to everyone, trying to drum up business for his catering company. But the thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is when I overheard a conversation between him and a guy in a blue shirt with something about a church on the front. Before the judging, the guy tasted a rib, was enjoying it, and told the cook that he was a judge.

Hmmmmm…..

I’m not saying that there was cheating. I’m NOT saying that the cook led a judge. But all of us cooks had our team number on the ground next to our cook site (he was 10). And this judge went there and tried the product. Then he went back to the judge’s area and saw the boxes with the number 10 written on top of the boxes in sharpie. And he definitely saw his new friend’s box with the ribs he liked. And he saw his new friend’s entire box with the other two boxes right next to it, also with the number 10 on it. I don’t think that one judge can change a winner or a loser.

Oops…. I forgot. Number 10 won ribs by 1 point. One point difference between first and second. I didn’t count how many other blue shirts with something about a church on the front there were.


I will say that that looks real suspicious."

Just my opinion. Never put yourself in a iffy situation.

In KCBS and MBN "blind" judging, we (the judges) won't see "Number 10" on a box. The numbers are changed for the explicit purpose that NO judge would be able to identify a blind box entry. I agree that the judge should NOT taste or otherwise fraternize with a team on turn-in day (before judging), but seeing the turn-in boxes with numbers on them doesn't equate with what is actually seen by the judges during judging.

I definitely agree: NEVER put yourself in an iffy situation!

bingo1912
07-25-2011, 11:05 AM
This is a segment from a post on my BBQ blog from a few years ago at a small cometiton that was local...

"
The guy who won was next to me. Swept all categories. I tried his ribs and was impressed. Good baby backs. He was giving away free samples to everyone, trying to drum up business for his catering company. But the thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is when I overheard a conversation between him and a guy in a blue shirt with something about a church on the front. Before the judging, the guy tasted a rib, was enjoying it, and told the cook that he was a judge.

Hmmmmm…..

I’m not saying that there was cheating. I’m NOT saying that the cook led a judge. But all of us cooks had our team number on the ground next to our cook site (he was 10). And this judge went there and tried the product. Then he went back to the judge’s area and saw the boxes with the number 10 written on top of the boxes in sharpie. And he definitely saw his new friend’s box with the ribs he liked. And he saw his new friend’s entire box with the other two boxes right next to it, also with the number 10 on it. I don’t think that one judge can change a winner or a loser.

Oops…. I forgot. Number 10 won ribs by 1 point. One point difference between first and second. I didn’t count how many other blue shirts with something about a church on the front there were.


I will say that that looks real suspicious."

Just my opinion. Never put yourself in a iffy situation.

Now that does leave a bad taste in my mouth! Not only because of the suspicion cast, but because of the way it puts churches in a bad light.,,,,,

bbq.tom
07-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Now that does leave a bad taste in my mouth! Not only because of the suspicion cast, but because of the way it puts churches in a bad light.,,,,,


I've NEVER seen a KCBS or MBN contest where the judges wore shirts from a church! Must have been "non-sanctioned". In that case, who knows what rules they are using!!! Perfect case for ALWAYS competing in "sanctioned" contests!!!

Smok'n Dawg
10-27-2011, 05:23 PM
This very interesting as I am taking a KCBS judging class in January and never really thought about all the stuff written here. I definitely will be a topic that I would like to talk about in the class.

Steve

jraben
11-05-2011, 01:19 PM
I've judged over 15 events, and cooked my first one this past weekend...

iampaulb
11-08-2011, 09:35 PM
From the perspective of a KCBS Judge:

I would have to agree with most of the comments on this thread. I have only been judging one year and out of 6 events, I have only run into the occasional idiot at the table judging BBQ with me.

The first real idiot I encountered at a Sams Club Event in Austin. He ran a blog about bbq and offered some rinky dink "BBQ" discount card... he essentially did not want to follow the KCBS rules about no drinking and was politely asked to leave after judging the 2nd meat. His argument was he knew good bbq because he was a blogger and these KCBS rules were a formality for the rest of us who were not at his skill level. A sample of this individual's professionalism was this stellar individual put "it tastes like $hi7" on his comment card about one entry he gave a 2 to.

The only other idiots out there are "BBQ Cooks" who have tons of war stories how they did great at some event, won 2 categories, and still made tons of money as a vendor selling their BBQ to tourists. I always know there is going to be trouble from these judges when they tell me "I am a BBQ Cook, I make great ribs, I have won contests because of my ribs, and I am going to be tough on RIBS... if they don't beat mine, they don't get a 8 or 9" (Actual Quote). As a new judge I looked at this moron and felt sorry for his ego. If he is the Johnny Trigg of Kansas , why was this guy not competing?

IMO, KCBS BBQ is not about how that sample compares to your "winning" ribs, but how the sample compares to genre what the cook was going for. For example, I do not care for spicy bbq much, but if I get a spicy sample of BBQ that is literally the best spicy bbq I have had, they get a 9. I don't down score the sample because it does not meet some unreal expectation that is not apart of the KCBS rules or oath. It s just like not comparing one sample to another on the same score-sheet. There have been times where I have given 9-9-9 scores on multiple samples on the same score-sheet. Give every cook their opportunity to put their best foot forward.

95% of the judges I meat (pun intended) are outstanding and take great care in their responsibility of judges. It is just the 5% out there who refuse to play by the rules established by KCBS.

Just my 2 cents.
Paul

Rookie'48
11-09-2011, 02:49 AM
Paul, it looks like you're going to be one of the good ones - glad to have you!!!

It's all about "As presented by the cook".

accuseal
12-01-2011, 04:48 PM
Unfortunately, perception is frequently substituted for reality. Just ask any politician.

I think your advice on judging is spot on. What better way to prepere for competing.

Uncle T
12-02-2011, 01:36 AM
You know people will alway see what they want to see, make Assuptions where they are true or not. Double blind is what it means... there is no way any one would know who cooked what. The way I look at it is this. Come on I know some adults can be and act a bit childish, but to think a double blind smoke off judge could tell who was whos.. well I do pitty them and they need to put more effort in their smokin and less into other peoples business.

JMHO

I do have to agree with Tim here as I said people will always see what and how they want. I would hope those here would never think any judge is out to get them or favor them.. Its the flavor (taste if you prefer), texure and tenderness that counts....

jeff miller
02-20-2012, 09:42 PM
Your right about the other side of cooking. Everyone needs to experience judging. It lets you know exectly what to look for in cooking:clap:

LongTong
02-23-2012, 01:34 PM
As a CBJ with 15 comps and 1 as head cook a completely agree with you all...

bigpaul
03-06-2012, 10:46 AM
Well my first judging gig is at the BBQ Championship and Hog Wild Festival in Mobile March 9-10. Needless to say i'm excited it's finally here. I've been reading up on here about others experiences and what to expect. If any one is there this weekend look for me. I will give a report next week of how it goes.http://http://bbqmobile.net/index.html

bbq.tom
03-06-2012, 03:52 PM
Just a suggestion from experience:
1. Let your table captain know you are new to judging - he will (or at least SHOULD) pay a bit more attention to you and what you are doing.
2. Talk with the other judges at your table before judging and get to know them.
3. Talk with the other judges between categories and LISTEN to what they say about each entry. You might not agree, but if their concensus is good and you think it was bad, then you might need to re-evaluate your criteria. Just saying...
4. MOST IMPORTANT - do your best to be fair and honest! The teams deserve nothing less!
5. HAVE FUN!!!

jketron
03-24-2012, 11:20 PM
Folks I'm going to be taking the KCBS judging class in KS April 19 and I'm all excited to get started. Upon finishing the class do they give you your KCBS CBJ #? From what I do know so far it looks like I scan the list of KCBs events, decided the ones I can attend, apply to judge that event at the event website and then I may be randomly drawn to be a judge. Does this sound about right?

Arlin_MacRae
03-25-2012, 12:52 PM
Have fun at the class! Your CBJ number should be the same as your KCBS membership number, unless they've changed. You're certified and ready to go the minute you pass the class. You can sign up for anything then, using the number. Just explain you graduated from class X on date X and you should be good to go. As far as random choosing of judges, that's up to the organizer. If they have enough judge applicants they may do it randomly or they may go with experienced judges only, but my wife and I didn't have any problem getting a gig right away. New judges are not treated poorly as far as I've seen in my young experience as a CBJ.

jketron
03-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Thank you for the info, I can't wait for the class. I'm going to hit up some of the local spots in Kansas City where I'm attending and bring some home to the wife.

Gadragonfly
03-26-2012, 11:51 AM
As a fellow judge, I recommend that you keep an eye on the "recent events added" tab on the website. The day new contests are added you want to apply if you're interested in that contest. Some contest organizers select judges on a first come/first serve basis, some try to mix the field with master judges and less experienced judges and some use their previous judge pool and fill in the open slots. You just want to get your application in as soon as possible. If you apply early and then learn that you can't judge a contest make sure you let the organizer know as early as possible as well. You don't want to get a reputation of cancelling at the last minute.

Julie

arrowhead
04-02-2012, 06:24 PM
at a comp this past weekend, the table captain was voicing his opinion on how a cbj should judge a box with 2 different items. i told him it wasn't his job to hold a cbj class at a competition. created a little tension.

the table had 2 judges with over 30 comps, myself (22), 2 others in the teens and one with 5 comps.

he said judge both samples and only score the best entry.

i have been instructed to judge both and average the scores.

nothing in the cbj handbook on how to handle it.

bbq.tom
04-02-2012, 09:53 PM
at a comp this past weekend, the table captain was voicing his opinion on how a cbj should judge a box with 2 different items. i told him it wasn't his job to hold a cbj class at a competition. created a little tension.

the table had 2 judges with over 30 comps, myself (22), 2 others in the teens and one with 5 comps.

he said judge both samples and only score the best entry.

i have been instructed to judge both and average the scores.

nothing in the cbj handbook on how to handle it.

In KCBS I've always heard to try them both and average the scores. MBN tells you to try them both and score the one you like best.

SuperQue
04-03-2012, 11:53 AM
I have raised that question before and the response from the reps were to judge the meat as it's presented, meaning judging the entry as a whole.

ElJefe
04-26-2012, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure I'm happy with the fact that a Board director and his assistant win or place in every cook-off I've ever been in for the last 5 years. They are also head judges. On the Board of Directors, competing and judging. Pick one and be the best you can at it but doing all three? That's just sending the wrong message. There are a LOT of people in our organization that are unhappy with the fairness of the competitions. So much in fact, that I joined KCBS and another society this week. There is something very blatant and very consistent that the same 3 or four people are walking every time. Nobody is that good that they win at every cookoff they get in. Especially when there is 75 to 100 teams. The "perception" is that it's at both tables. I also don't like the fact that team members can act as judges. There is waaaay too much room for impropriety there and at a minimum, it breeds distrust among the competitors.

I'm not trying to be negative but if someone or several someones want to be unethical, they will find a way, blind juding or not.

By the way,
Who sets the standard for what the judges want? Who makes the decision on tenderness, flavor, smoke ring width, sauce/no sauce? The reason I ask? I was at a cook-off a while back and I had the BBQ association Director, who was competing against me that day, walk up and compliment my ribs while I was boxing them for turn in. He said, "Wow! Those look great son! You know what I would do? I would move the top 4 ribs back from the other 5 about a half inch. That way, the judges can count them easier when they hit the table." I got disqualified for a marked box. Nice!

Respectfully,

bingo1912
04-26-2012, 01:59 PM
IDK about KCBS but as a judge with the PNWBA it is standard practice the the head judge will give an hour refresher course at EVERY event. This way there is no question that the judges have been informed as to what is kosher, what is not, what to look for ect.
That being said. the scoring system for PNWBA vs KCBS is very different. I believe the system the PNWBA has is much more fair, that's just my two cents but. There it is,,, :icon_blush:

at a comp this past weekend, the table captain was voicing his opinion on how a cbj should judge a box with 2 different items. i told him it wasn't his job to hold a cbj class at a competition. created a little tension.

the table had 2 judges with over 30 comps, myself (22), 2 others in the teens and one with 5 comps.

he said judge both samples and only score the best entry.

i have been instructed to judge both and average the scores.

nothing in the cbj handbook on how to handle it.

Big Gravy BBQ
05-08-2012, 08:33 PM
Being new to the competitive cooking scene I have had not much luck in the events I have cooked in. I have also realized I am not sure what everyone else is turning in. Because of this fact I will be judging my first IBCA competition at the end of this month. I feel this will help me realize some of my short falls.

bbq.tom
05-09-2012, 08:31 AM
Being new to the competitive cooking scene I have had not much luck in the events I have cooked in. I have also realized I am not sure what everyone else is turning in. Because of this fact I will be judging my first IBCA competition at the end of this month. I feel this will help me realize some of my short falls.

Glad to see you feel this way, as I definitely think that the way to know what the judges are looking for is to become one!!!

Good luck!

Mogator
05-22-2012, 11:09 AM
Agreed, in the 24 or so contests I have done we have always been told judge it as it's presented..meaning if they turned in Burnt ends and slices..judge em both.

bingo1912
05-23-2012, 12:49 PM
Agreed, in the 24 or so contests I have done we have always been told judge it as it's presented..meaning if they turned in Burnt ends and slices..judge em both.

It does depend on your jurisdiction. The PNWBA does have slightly different rules than the KCBS. and there are differences between brisket and pork,,, I would have to get clarification on that one, we would normally give each a score and average the two for a final.

armrest2
05-23-2012, 11:30 PM
Glad to see you feel this way, as I definitely think that the way to know what the judges are looking for is to become one!!!

Good luck!
I recently became a KCBS CBJ - and would like to begin to judge comps. any suggestions on whats the best way to begin getting on the circuit? Ready to go. Live in PA.

bbq.tom
05-24-2012, 07:30 PM
I recently became a KCBS CBJ - and would like to begin to judge comps. any suggestions on whats the best way to begin getting on the circuit? Ready to go. Live in PA.

Best way to get to judge is to watch the KCBS website "Events" page, "Recently Added Events" and send in an application as soon as they become available. I also contact the organizer if the judging application isn't available immediately.

Good luck!

HERM'S HOGS
05-29-2012, 11:33 AM
Good advice to start judging - thanks Tom - sounds simple enough. Saw some in NC - Any suggestions for NC events to apply for ? We'll be staying with my daughter for a while in Chapel Hill (UNC Student) this summer.

Chuck (armrest2)
Herm's Hogs

bbq.tom
05-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Good advice to start judging - thanks Tom - sounds simple enough. Saw some in NC - Any suggestions for NC events to apply for ? We'll be staying with my daughter for a while in Chapel Hill (UNC Student) this summer.

Chuck (armrest2)
Herm's Hogs

Unfortunately, you might be a bit late to judge many competitions around NC, as they fill up pretty fast. Easiest way to find the KCBS comps in NC is to go to the KCBS site: http://www.kcbs.us/events.php?str=NC&fromDate=mm%2Fdd%2Fyy&toDate=mm%2Fdd%2Fyy&search=Search

as you can see, there are a whole bunch, but they may or may not be still taking applications. Best bet is to contact each organizer and ask.

GOOD LUCK!!!

Rookie'48
05-29-2012, 11:13 PM
at a comp this past weekend, the table captain was voicing his opinion on how a cbj should judge a box with 2 different items. i told him it wasn't his job to hold a cbj class at a competition. created a little tension.

the table had 2 judges with over 30 comps, myself (22), 2 others in the teens and one with 5 comps.

he said judge both samples and only score the best entry.

i have been instructed to judge both and average the scores.

nothing in the cbj handbook on how to handle it.

I have raised that question before and the response from the reps were to judge the meat as it's presented, meaning judging the entry as a whole.

SuperQue, that's exactly the right answer!

I've heard about some other instances of TCs or other judges trying to "instruct" their table. I wish that the Contest Reps would be told about this immediately - none of the Reps that I know would take kindly to this behavior.

The only time that anyone can tell a judge how to score is when the Rep issues a DQ. Period.

MWRobison
06-03-2012, 09:37 AM
I agree and always judge the whole box as presented. There have been times when it would have been better for a cook had they left something out as it pulled the whole box down.

Mike
cBJ 61436

arrowhead
01-09-2013, 11:21 AM
was working on my 2013 schedule and was wondering what others were up too.

i'm going to try and judge 26 or 27 contests this year, been accepted to 16, waiting on word for the others. starting in lake havasu in a couple weeks. then it's off to:

columbia mo
kearney ne
thornton co (sams)
pleasant hill mo
osage city ks
bixby ok
lamar co
valley ne
pueblo co
frisco co
fairplay co
whiting ia or liberty mo
cameron mo
laramie wy
dodge city ks
craig co
conifer co
albert lea mn
omaha ne
scott city ks
spearfish sd
kansas city mo (sams)
royal
bentonville ar

see you on the trail.

bbq.tom
01-09-2013, 11:42 AM
Looks BUSY Arrowhead! I've already lined up 20, but am still awaiting confirmation on some of these. Almost all of these are repeats from previous years.
Looks like the only overlap will be the Royal. Hope to meet you there!
Here's mine:

Pensacola, FL

Kings Mt., NC

Cornelia, GA

Lexington, NC

Kannapolis, NC

Gainesville, GA

Lincolnton, NC

Tryon, NC

Apex, NC

Covington, VA

Greenwood SC

Maggie Valley, NC

Franklin, NC

Greer, SC

Winder, GA

Salisbury, NC

Kansas City, MO - (Invite & Open)

Shelby, NC

Cumming, GA

arrowhead
01-09-2013, 12:24 PM
double post

arrowhead
01-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Looks BUSY Arrowhead! I've already lined up 20, but am still awaiting confirmation on some of these. Almost all of these are repeats from previous years.
Looks like the only overlap will be the Royal. Hope to meet you there!
Here's mine:

Pensacola, FL

Kings Mt., NC

Cornelia, GA

Lexington, NC

Kannapolis, NC

Gainesville, GA

Lincolnton, NC

Tryon, NC

Apex, NC

Covington, VA

Greenwood SC

Maggie Valley, NC

Franklin, NC

Greer, SC

Winder, GA

Salisbury, NC

Kansas City, MO - (Invite & Open)

Shelby, NC


Cumming, GA


excellent! looks like we have most of the country covered. lol

shake hands at the royal for sure.

at the end of 2013, i will have been to 14 states. my bucket list is to hit all that have a contest.

i need to do an eastern/southern states tour. not sure how the wife would react to me being gone for a month or two. then again......

forgot one. i'm going to try to somehow get selected to judge king of the smoker II. that's at the top of my bucket list.

bbq.tom
01-09-2013, 12:32 PM
excellent! looks like we have most of the country covered. lol

i need to do an eastern/southern states tour. not sure how the wife would react to me being gone for a month or two. then again......

I've trimmed it down a bit from last year when I got out to Lake Havasu, AZ and up to Kettering, Ohio. Also, I will be attending a cooking class in July so that is hurting my schedule a wee bit - BUT it should be worth it!

Hopefully, I'll be cooking in the contest in Graham, NC again this year as well as in Apex. Not sure if I'll get to judge any MBN or NCPC contests coming up this year, but I'm still hoping!

My bucket list also includes all 50 states, but seeing that realized will be several years out yet. Something about work getting in the way!!!

arrowhead
01-09-2013, 12:39 PM
i'm co-organizer of a first year contest here in gothenburg, coming up in april. glad it's early in the year.

not sure what possessed me to volunteer to do that. :crazy:

bbq.tom
01-09-2013, 12:46 PM
GOOD LUCK!!! Sounds too much like work to me! I may end up doing something similar sometime in the future, but right now I'll leave all the headaches and all to others!