Questions for 1st smoker.

[sash501]

Greetings Brethren,

I'm a newb when it comes to smoking. Over the past two years, I've settled with smoking chips on a char-broil grill. For those of you who have started with this method, you know from experience that it only takes you so far. As such, I decided that this will be the first Ultimate Summer of Legendary BBQ and a smoker is needed; originally thinking I would go with a traditional horizontal smoker.

I stumbled upon the Char-Broil CB600X for $145 at wally world and thought it looked like a good starter smoker, and was impressed with the vertical style. Because it's 2012 and we carry computers in my pocket I was smart enough to look for reviews on it, and stumbled upon this forum amongst others. I'm happy I did! This smoker hasn't received the best reviews so it seems like I've dodged a bullet. I was also looking at the Brinkmann 810-5502-W, but couldn't find much on it.

What I have learned thus far, is that I think I want to go with a vertical (my needs are more recreational) because I really like the idea of starting the night before and sleeping through the night; it seems like verticals require less attention. It also seems that the WSM is the way to go. So onto the questions (I've noticed that a couple threads get a little off topic, so I'm going to number them and would ask that you answer in numbered format as well, thanks).

1. Is the WSM, the recommended smoker to start out on? Or do you recommend another?
2. If so, do I need the Rapid Fire Chimney Starter? Why or Why Not?
3 My house has a gas line which I use for my grill. Anyway I can utilize this on a WSM or other smoker?
4. The goal is to smoke a small pig by the end of the summer. Can this be done on the WSM and if so, do I need the 18.5 or the 22.5?
5. Any other helpful advise is much appreciated.
6. Thank you all in advance.

[MilitantSquatter]

1. WSM is a great smoker to start on
2. you need a chimney starter unless you have a propane weedburner or similar
3. Doubt a small pig can ever fit on a 22"

horizontal or vertical design does not determine ease of use... ease of use is more so determined by method used to burn wood or charcoal (ex. offset firebox, or a slow burn Minion method, charcoal maze etc

[sash501]

1. WSM is a great smoker to start on
2. you need a chimney starter unless you have a propane weedburner or similar
3. Doubt a small pig can ever fit on a 22"

horizontal or vertical design does not determine ease of use... ease of use is more so determined by method used to burn wood or charcoal (ex. offset firebox, or a slow burn Minion method, charcoal maze etc

Thank you for the help. Actually, I have a gas line hookup that I would love to use if possible. That way I don't have to ever worry about fuel. Is this something the WSM can do?

[MilitantSquatter]

Thank you for the help. Actually, I have a gas line hookup that I would love to use if possible. That way I don't have to ever worry about fuel. Is this something the WSM can do?

I've never seen that...

A WSM is not like a gas grill. with charcoal properly set up and ignited you can cook for many hours.

FYI... Most people who BBQ and enjoy the idea of cooking with a wood burning fire, don't consider gas an option

[bigabyte]

I think the WSM is a no brainer for most beginners.

However, had I not started out with a cheap offset that required me to actually learn the variables of tending a pit, I would not be as knowledgeable of a bbq guy today.

That said, starting off not having to worry about running a pit and focusing on food instead sounds like a great way to start "to me".

[Happy Hapgood]

A pig will fit on the 22 WSM.

Suckling Pig on Weber Smokey Mountain Smoker - YouTube

Doing the math, a 26" (from snout to base of tail) will fit on a 18.5 WSM using the same method.

WSM all the way.

[sash501]

A pig will fit on the 22 WSM.

Suckling Pig on Weber Smokey Mountain Smoker - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSJv_0Liy90)

Doing the math, a 26" (from snout to base of tail) will fit on a 18.5 WSM using the same method.

WSM all the way.

Well that answers the pig question. Thanks Toast for posting the video.

Anyone else having startup advice?

[nexpress]

The wsm is a great start you can use it for just about anything. The chimney is a must have.

[bscott]

I'm a relative newb as well, only 4-5 cooks under my belt. Received an 18.5 WSM for Christmas and love it. First time I used it, I filled the charcoal ring with unlit, dumped 1/2 chimney of lit on top of it, foiled and filled the water pan, and the thing ran 220-240 all day long. Vents were all wide open, never even had to adjust it.

I don't think it gets much easier than that.

[DMSinTexas]

Buy the 22 WSM.
Buy the Chimney starter.
Do it today.

[sash501]

This forum is getting me pumped! Consider this guy sold!

[BDAABAT]

Sash: welcome to the addiction! I'm a recreational Qer...have been smoking for the past 18 months.

My $0.02.... You've already made the right decision by finding this site and asking for informed feedback. Would suggest reading through some of the basic posts/tutorials to help get you started. My Q has improved drammatically with advice provided by the good folks here.

Unfortunately, when I got started, I didn't know about this site. I just got a wild hare up my butt to smoke meat. So, I purchased a cooker that was easy to use and would provide consistent results. I ended up getting a propane cabinet smoker. It's fine, was cheap, produces very good food, but I can't help but think that I'm missing something....that the food COULD be better if I were cooking with charcoal/wood. In short, I have upgraditis. :becky:

I'm also now at the point where I would like some additional capacity.

Bottom line: if I had to do it all over again, I would want a cooker that wasn't tooooooo expensive, that would be easy to use, provide good and consistent results, would allow for growth and allow for upgrades. I'd end up with a WSM 22.5. WSM fits those requirements. Can add a blower to really maintain temps and provide you with monitoring capabilities. Can add an after market door to get a better seal, etc.

You can learn a great deal on the WSM, produce a ton of good food, and you can allow your interest to direct the next path you take....you could end up using the WSM for years and be perfectly fine. You could decide that you want to cook more volume at one time and get a larger cooker or another WSM. You'll have options.

Good luck! Let us know what you end up doing. And, please post pr0n. :becky:

Bruce

[Callahan-que]

Welcome to the forum. A WSM will be perfect for you. Just lose the idea of fueling it with gas.

[deathamphetamine]

For me 99% OF THE fun is tending your fire, It's not all that difficult. Once you have your temp where you want its just a matter of fine tuning the vents if you have a spike or a drop. Its an excuse to be outside, have a beer, and be the envy of your neighbors.

So Get The WSM and Tell us all about your first cook!!

[sash501]

Sash: welcome to the addiction! I'm a recreational Qer...have been smoking for the past 18 months.

My $0.02.... You've already made the right decision by finding this site and asking for informed feedback. Would suggest reading through some of the basic posts/tutorials to help get you started. My Q has improved drammatically with advice provided by the good folks here.

Unfortunately, when I got started, I didn't know about this site. I just got a wild hare up my butt to smoke meat. So, I purchased a cooker that was easy to use and would provide consistent results. I ended up getting a propane cabinet smoker. It's fine, was cheap, produces very good food, but I can't help but think that I'm missing something....that the food COULD be better if I were cooking with charcoal/wood. In short, I have upgraditis. :becky:

I'm also now at the point where I would like some additional capacity.

Bottom line: if I had to do it all over again, I would want a cooker that wasn't tooooooo expensive, that would be easy to use, provide good and consistent results, would allow for growth and allow for upgrades. I'd end up with a WSM 22.5. WSM fits those requirements. Can add a blower to really maintain temps and provide you with monitoring capabilities. Can add an after market door to get a better seal, etc.

You can learn a great deal on the WSM, produce a ton of good food, and you can allow your interest to direct the next path you take....you could end up using the WSM for years and be perfectly fine. You could decide that you want to cook more volume at one time and get a larger cooker or another WSM. You'll have options.

Good luck! Let us know what you end up doing. And, please post pr0n. :becky:

Bruce


Bruce,

Thanks for the awesome feedback. I'm feeling the addiction and am already planning on making an UDS in about 6 months (need a little experience first) with a buddy of mine. Right now I'm sold on the WSM. Am I correct in interpreting your post as implying that charcoal is the way to go with smoking as opposed to trying to hook it up to a gas line?

Thanks again, your post really helped.

[sash501]

Welcome to the forum. A WSM will be perfect for you. Just lose the idea of fueling it with gas.


Got it!!

[Jason TQ]

You don't need to hook it up to a gas line. It operates perfectly with charcoal as designed.

[sash501]

Just ordered the 22.5 and the chimney. Will be here Thursday. Gotta love the amazon prime free 2 day shipping.

[sash501]

You don't need to hook it up to a gas line. It operates perfectly with charcoal as designed.

It wasn't a question of need as much as want. I'll go with charcoal if it cooks better, but having a gas line on your house makes it so charcoal or propane is never needed and helps avoid the cost per Q

[bscott]

Just ordered the 22.5 and the chimney. Will be here Thursday. Gotta love the amazon prime free 2 day shipping.

:clap2::clap2::clap2:

[BDAABAT]

Sash: just my perspective... I enjoy the food that I've been making using a propane fuel smoker. The stuff I've been able to do at home is far superior to anything I can buy in the Baltimore area. I'm enjoying Q a lot, and that's due to the efforts and feedback from folks here. And I've gotta admit that I really like being able to set up my cooker for an overnight cook, get the temps dialed in quickly, and then go off to bed. That ability to set and forget the cooker is pretty durn appealing! Yes, I do use a Maverick ET 732 just to be sure.
http://www.shop.5-0bbq.com/NEW-Maverick-Remote-Smoker-Thermometer-ET-732-ET-732.htm

However, I cannot help but wonder if I'm missing something by NOT using charcoal or wood as the fuel source. Would the smoke flavor/character be different?? Would it be better? Donno.

Since I don't want to spend all night tending to a fire, I've ruled out using a stick burner. And, I can't justify the cost of an insulated cooker like a Stumps or a ceramic cooker like a BGE.

At this point, I'm working on the proposal to the executive committee (er, my wife :oops:) to move to a 22.5 WSM.

Which brings me back to the beginning... if I had to do it all over again, I would have gotten the WSM. And, instead of negotiating with the wife about buying another cooker to replace the perfectly good cooker I've got (hate when she gets all logical with me and mentions things like college tuition and retirement planning!), I'd be adding some upgrades: http://cajunbandit.com/bundles/
and a blower:
http://cajunbandit.com/bbq-guru/

My perspective: I should have made the decision once. Now, I'm making the decision (and dealing with the costs) a second time. Of course, YMMV.

Good luck!!!

Bruce

[SourHopHead]

18.5 WSM just before Thanksgiving 2011 and never looked back! Picked up the Maverick and added handles to the middle section for easy on/off.

[TonyT]

Just ordered the 22.5 and the chimney. Will be here Thursday. Gotta love the amazon prime free 2 day shipping.

Awesome! You're gonna love it! I got mine from Amazon as well a few years ago, totally beats spending $50+ on shipping + no tax. Now as stated, all you need is a maverick and you're set = )

[El Ropo]

Don't leave out the UDS or akorn for set it and forget it cooking.

[LMAJ]

Looks like you already pulled the trigger... and made a good choice...

1. Is the WSM, the recommended smoker to start out on? Or do you recommend another? - Good Start!
2. If so, do I need the Rapid Fire Chimney Starter? Why or Why Not? Yep - get a chimney
3 My house has a gas line which I use for my grill. Anyway I can utilize this on a WSM or other smoker? - No - leave the gas for quick grilling... use lump and wood for BBQ
4. The goal is to smoke a small pig by the end of the summer. Can this be done on the WSM and if so, do I need the 18.5 or the 22.5? - Apparently you can!
5. Any other helpful advise is much appreciated.
Read, read, read, read... ask questions, and read some more... welcome to the party!

[jgbmgb]

If you are really wanting a good gas setup for your WSM, check this out.

http://www.gassmoker.com/mini-v.htm

[BDAABAT]

Sash, this site has a wealth of information.

Example: brisket basics
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57882

There are threads for just about anything you can think of!

Recipes-o-plenty. Advice galore. You've ordered some really good tools to get started. Would also suggest investing in some thermometers...one for whatever you're cooking and one for the cooker itself. I generally use a wireless remote for the cooker and wired thermometers for whatever meat I'm cooking. Not sure about others experiences, but I've become a strict convert to checking temperatures rather than guessing about whether the meat was done or not.

Would also suggest some other helpful tools....things like insulated gloves, Bear Claws for pulling pork, Frog mats (silicone grids that prevent food from sticking to the grill), etc. can also start exploring various commercial rubs. There are a number of Bretheren who make excellent products commercially (Simply Marvelous rubs really are marvelous!). You can also go down the path of making your own rubs and sauces. There's a lot to explore and a bunch to learn.

Have fun!

And don't forget to post pr0n (pictures of the food, the cooker, the prep, whatever).

Bruce

[Happy Hapgood]

Just some facts about natural gas, propane and coal.

http://www.propane101.com/propanevsnaturalgas.htm

In the end Nat gas burns cooler than propane, therefore you use more for the desired result.

Then there is charcoal. The favor imparted to the meat make it BBQ. I have a Weber gasser (propane) and it's darn handy during the week when you don't have time for a long smoke.

For real Q, I'll be firing up with the WSM on the weekends for a good low and slow with some wood.

Congrats on the 22. :thumb:

[ChrisB]

I am able to put out some pretty good Q with my gas UDS using the forementioned gassmoker.com equipment. I actually throw in some lump with my wood on the burner and it works just fine.

I personally don't enjoy jacking with the firepit. I know my burner setting well enough that I can light it and it comes right up to 225 every time. Also, with the gas, I can get it up to around 400, which will cook a bunch of stuff in the UDS.

Nothing against those who enjoy tending wood, but I enjoy doing other stuff, like sleeping, knowing my UDS is sitting on 225 all night long. Sorry if this gets the dander up on the purists, but I enjoy the eating part more than the firestarting/tending part.

[sash501]

Bruce & Toast,

A wealth of information. Thank you guys so much. The WSM will be here Thursday. Construction and reading this weekend, with my first smoke 2 weeks after that. I'll keep you all informed.

Thanks again!

[grill 'em all]

Don't leave out the UDS or akorn for set it and forget it cooking.

Cant believe this made it 24 posts without the drum being mentioned:tsk:..thats a first..anyway heres my 2 cents,

1-Build or have a UDS built for you
2-Season UDS
3-Learn to control its temps
4-Enjoy your summer,Still get your sleep
and produce incredible Q..

My only wish is I built my drum a lot sooner..
Makes life on the porch a lot easier..

[sash501]

Cant believe this made it 24 posts without the drum being mentioned:tsk:..thats a first..anyway heres my 2 cents,

1-Build or have a UDS built for you
2-Season UDS
3-Learn to control its temps
4-Enjoy your summer,Still get your sleep
and produce incredible Q..

My only wish is I built my drum a lot sooner..
Makes life on the porch a lot easier..

The plan right now is to learn on the WSM and in August build the UDS. South Florida makes it easy.

[trianglemouse]

I am also new to this forum and learning to grill the slow smoker method. There is much to learn here from the variety of posts and the experience of grill masters. Look forward to putting much of what I learn into action. Thanks to all.

[snook806]

For the price of a WSM, you can build a UDS and buy an IQ110 for controlling your temps....the IQ110 works great.......just my .02 cents....:thumb::thumb::thumb:....but you cant go wrong either way....

[superlazy]

You are going to love your WSM. Set it, forget and sleep!!!!
I had a small party Sun. and they could not believe I was smoking again.
good times and you get to sleep!!! Well at least while the food cooks

[KCBRUIN]

I'm new to smoking and the site. Bought a 22.5" WSM last summer and absolutely love it. Just some tips to help out when you first start.
1.)The first time you use it it will burn hotter than heck, and be a bear to keep the temp at anything. Without being seasoned mine would get stupid hot.
2.)I tried it with water and it ran out at one point. I don't think the water pan will ever get clean now. So I now go waterless and use a clay plate wrapped in foil, and it seems to work just as well as with water with less mess.
3.) if you're going to cook on both racks have something set up to put your top rack on when you need to pull stuff off the bottom rack. Right now I place the lid on my open kettle, and I then balance the top rack on my chimney that sits on a second non foiled clay plate on my deck.
4.) until its seasoned smoke billowing out of everywhere is normal. It'll go away once you get a few long cooks under your belt.

My ribs were better than any I've ever had at any restaurant, and I live in KC so I'm totally in love with my WSM. I haven't got Brisket down yet, but pulled pork, ribs, bacon, turkey, and chicken have all been amazing.

Once you get it seasoned and learn how it reacts to different stimuli like direct sun, and wind its almost set it and forget it with the Minion method.

I'm going to order the Cajun bandit steel door because the door that comes with it is a joke.

Have fun you're gonna be amazed at how good your food is, and how much food you get compared to what you eat at a BBQ joint.

[BDAABAT]

Oooohhhh, oooooh!! For seasoning the WSM, might want to try a couple fatties. Can't really mess up fatties, they're quick in BBQ terms (~2 hours), and they taste WONDERFUL!

Bruce

[NickTheGreat]

I was you last week! :mrgreen:

I ended up buying a 18.5 WSM Thursday and smoked a chicken on Saturday. I bought the big hoss Weber chimney and it worked really well. I used lump charcoal, and was happy with it. Buy some wood chunks too :idea:

[sash501]

The 22.5 arrived a day early. This sucker is big! Can't contain the excitement.

As a side note, gotta love the Honda Fit.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg585/sash501/CameraAwesomePhoto.jpg

[sash501]

I'm new to smoking and the site. Bought a 22.5" WSM last summer and absolutely love it. Just some tips to help out when you first start.
1.)The first time you use it it will burn hotter than heck, and be a bear to keep the temp at anything. Without being seasoned mine would get stupid hot.
2.)I tried it with water and it ran out at one point. I don't think the water pan will ever get clean now. So I now go waterless and use a clay plate wrapped in foil, and it seems to work just as well as with water with less mess.
3.) if you're going to cook on both racks have something set up to put your top rack on when you need to pull stuff off the bottom rack. Right now I place the lid on my open kettle, and I then balance the top rack on my chimney that sits on a second non foiled clay plate on my deck.
4.) until its seasoned smoke billowing out of everywhere is normal. It'll go away once you get a few long cooks under your belt.

My ribs were better than any I've ever had at any restaurant, and I live in KC so I'm totally in love with my WSM. I haven't got Brisket down yet, but pulled pork, ribs, bacon, turkey, and chicken have all been amazing.

Once you get it seasoned and learn how it reacts to different stimuli like direct sun, and wind its almost set it and forget it with the Minion method.

I'm going to order the Cajun bandit steel door because the door that comes with it is a joke.

Have fun you're gonna be amazed at how good your food is, and how much food you get compared to what you eat at a BBQ joint.


Can I get some more information on #2? Where to you place the foiled wrapped clay plate? Above the coal and wood?

[jestridge]

For real BBQ and flavor use real word, not those God awful charcoal bricks

[KCBRUIN]

Can I get some more information on #2? Where to you place the foiled wrapped clay plate? Above the coal and wood?

Wrap the water pan with foil, and then wrap the clay plate with foil. Then place the clay plate in the water pan upside down. Works as a heat sink that doesn't need replacing.

You can try water if you want, but it's a mess, and you have to keep an eye on it to keep your temps constant. At least I did.

With the clay plate you just pull the foil and you're done with clean up.

I can't remember what size plate I bought but it was around 16", and I got it at Lowes.

[sash501]

Wrap the water pan with foil, and then wrap the clay plate with foil. Then place the clay plate in the water pan upside down. Works as a heat sink that doesn't need replacing.

You can try water if you want, but it's a mess, and you have to keep an eye on it to keep your temps constant. At least I did.

With the clay plate you just pull the foil and you're done with clean up.

I can't remember what size plate I bought but it was around 16", and I got it at Lowes.

Great advice. This does sound easier; I have clay plates all over the house for potting plants.

My wife never understands why I wrap baking sheets with foil when broiling. Clean up is awesome!

[MarleyMan]

Just ordered the 22.5 and the chimney. Will be here Thursday. Gotta love the amazon prime free 2 day shipping.

CONGRATS!:clap2:

You will LOVE it, I just upgraded last week from the 18.5. You made a fine choice, can't wait to see your first cook!

Get those camera batteries charged up!:thumb:

EDIT: The 16" base will fit on the 22.5 WSM, I just bought one for my WSM - It was $15.

[NorCalQue]

Congrats on your new toy Sash! I just got mine last week and have ran it once. Here's what I did, based on a ton of brethren posts: I used a foil wrapped terra-cotta saucer (16.25”) wrapped in foil as well. I also wrapped the whole water-pan with foil and filled it with builder’s sand (#30 mesh I believe). I went with the additional sand because I had read the WSM’s run hot at first, and opted for the additional heat-sink. I may ditch the sand down the road after I get used to temp. control. I also aluminum taped the door shut (I didn’t need to add water) which might have made it run cooler.

It ran a solid 270-275 with only one, fast jump when I opened the vents a little too much about 8 hours in. The slightest (i.e. ¼”) turns on the bottom vents (I left the top vent wide open the whole run) changed my temps, after waiting 10mins or so. I used the ‘minion’ method, let the cooker get to 250 (vents full open), then added the meat and closed the vents a little more than half-way when it hit 200. Then I watched it until the temp stabilized around 270 (2 -10lb. pork butts) making very slight adjustments to the vents. The sun heated it up around noon, and the vents were only open 1/8” – ¼”.

These guys here will get you dialed in. I post the above info because it worked successfully on my first smoke on the identical cooker. Maybe I just got lucky. :o) I’m attempting ribs this weekend, so we’ll see. May your inaugural cook go as well as mine did. Oh, and listen to the brethren, put on a few fatties . . . one is simply not enough. :thumb:

[sash501]

Congrats on your new toy Sash! I just got mine last week and have ran it once. Here's what I did, based on a ton of brethren posts: I used a foil wrapped terra-cotta saucer (16.25”) wrapped in foil as well. I also wrapped the whole water-pan with foil and filled it with builder’s sand (#30 mesh I believe). I went with the additional sand because I had read the WSM’s run hot at first, and opted for the additional heat-sink. I may ditch the sand down the road after I get used to temp. control. I also aluminum taped the door shut (I didn’t need to add water) which might have made it run cooler.

It ran a solid 270-275 with only one, fast jump when I opened the vents a little too much about 8 hours in. The slightest (i.e. ¼”) turns on the bottom vents (I left the top vent wide open the whole run) changed my temps, after waiting 10mins or so. I used the ‘minion’ method, let the cooker get to 250 (vents full open), then added the meat and closed the vents a little more than half-way when it hit 200. Then I watched it until the temp stabilized around 270 (2 -10lb. pork butts) making very slight adjustments to the vents. The sun heated it up around noon, and the vents were only open 1/8” – ¼”.

These guys here will get you dialed in. I post the above info because it worked successfully on my first smoke on the identical cooker. Maybe I just got lucky. :o) I’m attempting ribs this weekend, so we’ll see. May your inaugural cook go as well as mine did. Oh, and listen to the brethren, put on a few fatties . . . one is simply not enough. :thumb:

Now this is some much needed information!! Thanks, :clap:

[cloudbuster]

Hey Sash,

If you're worried about charcoal prices wait for the summer holiday sales and buy a chit load of it. You're wife won't understand at first but will become tolerant.

[sash501]

Oooohhhh, oooooh!! For seasoning the WSM, might want to try a couple fatties. Can't really mess up fatties, they're quick in BBQ terms (~2 hours), and they taste WONDERFUL!

Bruce

What's a fattie?

[Happy Hapgood]

All good advise. My .02 is to line the pan with foil and use water on the 1st 2 or 3 cooks. That's what it was designed to do.

Your in FL. and I'm in LA. The first 100 degrees (outdoor temp) are free here anyway right now. I've had to be more concerned about keeping temps down in a WSM than up.

The saucers, sand or any other substrate in the water pan will eventually assume the temp of the fire under it.

Water will boil at 212*F in FL and LA. It boils at 194*F in Denver CO.

With a well lit bed of coals ie. Minion Method, water is the way to go for the 1st few smokes with a water smoker.

[BDAABAT]

Congrats Sash! Time to get her dirty!

Fatty = bulk sausage (think Jimmy Dean or Bob Evans) with wrapper removed, dusted in rub, then smoked for a while...usually around 2 hours at 250 degrees or so, but check temps in the fattie to be sure it's cooked through.

Technically, what I just described is a naked fatty. You could add adornment such as a bacon weave, you could stuff the fattie (e.g., roll out the sausage on a large piece of plastic wrap till its flat, then top with whatever you would like, then roll up the fattie with the toppings inside, sort of like a jelly roll.), then dust in rub and smoke. Or, stuff then do a bacon weave, dust in rub and smoke.

Just do a search for fatties...people here have done all kinds....I saw a blueberry pancake fattie, pizza fattie, and many, many more.

Good luck!

Bruce

[MarleyMan]

What's a fattie?


http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132622&highlight=fatty

A big roll of Deliciousness!

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123431&highlight=fatty