I need advice on how to foil without losing the rub.

[Baby Back Maniac]

I realize a lot of people don't "believe" in foiling and I respect that, but I am asking advice from people who have used it successfully.

I typically don't use foil because any time I do nearly all the rub washes off. This happens with any meat I foil no matter what cooker temp. I typically will cook butts and briskets to about 165 internal and then foil until fork tender. With ribs, I typically go 2 or 3 hours naked before foiling for another hour. My rubs are usually a basic salt, pepper, garlic, and onion rub or a doctored up season all (no sugar).

I've find no matter which meat I use, once the meat goes into the foil, I end up losing all the bark and rub on the outside and I'm pretty much starting over. The texture is not much different than the meat would have from a crock pot...It just has the added smoke flavor.

I actually like the internal texture of foiled meats better because I find it to be more moist but I hate wasting/missing the rub/bark. I would appreciate any advice on how to get the best of both worlds.

Thank you in advance.

[gtr]

I'm usually not a foiler, but - I'm wondering how long before cooking do you apply the rub - do you let the meat with the rub "sweat" before cooking it?

[jonboy]

Maybe you could try butcher paper instead of foil.
There are several threads on this currently.

What type of cooker are you using? What temp are you cooking at?
Could you cook a little longer to set the bark before foiling?

I don't use foil. But i have put the meat in pans and then tented while resting.
jon

[Baby Back Maniac]

These are great questions. Honestly, I don't have any set amount of time I rub before I put it on the fire. It's typically dictated by what's convenient that day. Sometimes that's right before and sometimes that overnight. What is the best amount of time to get a good bark?

Jon,
I only saw one current thread on it and it was asking whether or not to foil which isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking how to foil without losing the bark/rub because I'm obviously doing wrong. To answer your question, I'm using eggs now but in the past I've used a bubba keg and Weber's...always the same problem. Same thing with temps. I've gone as high as 350 and as low as 225...still lose the rub every time.

Thanks for these questions. I'm assuming if you are asking about these things this is an answer to these questions that will help? What is the ideal temp? cooker? time to set the bark before foiling?

[gtr]

It doesn't sound to me like the bark is really set when you foil - I have foiled a few times and haven't lost the bark, but just had it become soft. Lately I've been hitting whatever I cook with seasoned salt (usually SM season all), letting it sweat as it sits out on the counter, then hitting it with rub and letting it sweat again, then cooking. This has been working well for me.

I would let the appearance of the meat be the guide to when you foil rather than how much time has passed.

[superlazy]

Bark has to really set. I just did a shoulder that sat in the wsm all night 10pm-7am then I foiled and put it back on. Daughter #1 said the bark was better than anything I did in the past. Keep in mind I've out of smoking for about 2yrs but even I agree with her

[Baby Back Maniac]

It doesn't sound to me like the bark is really set when you foil - I have foiled a few times and haven't lost the bark, but just had it become soft. Lately I've been hitting whatever I cook with seasoned salt (usually SM season all), letting it sweat as it sits out on the counter, then hitting it with rub and letting it sweat again, then cooking. This has been working well for me.

I would let the appearance of the meat be the guide to when you foil rather than how much time has passed.

OK. So it's just an issue of giving it more time? So what am I looking for appearance-wise? Also what temps do you shoot for with the cooker?

[Baby Back Maniac]

Bark has to really set. I just did a shoulder that sat in the wsm all night 10pm-7am then I foiled and put it back on. Daughter #1 said the bark was better than anything I did in the past. Keep in mind I've out of smoking for about 2yrs but even I agree with her

Good to know. Thanks. How long was it in the foil and did you pull it out and cook it naked for any length of time after the foil phase?

[bigabyte]

It's the exact same as the secret to getting crispy skin on low & slow chicken.:wink:

[Rich Parker]

I foil everything close to what you do and never had this problem.

[Happy Hapgood]

A rub with some turbinado (or sugar in the raw) sugar will absorb into the meat and stick better. It also helps to make a great looking bark and does not burn as easily as white granulated sugar.

[Baby Back Maniac]

A rub with some turbinado (or sugar in the raw) sugar will absorb into the meat and stick better. It also helps to make a great looking bark and does not burn as easily as white granulated sugar.

Thanks. I'm actually thinking the lack of any sugar whatsoever may have been a big part of the problem.

[gtr]

OK. So it's just an issue of giving it more time? So what am I looking for appearance-wise? Also what temps do you shoot for with the cooker?

Time depends on temp. I cook at different temps - lately I've been doing higher heat cooks, like between 270-350. This week though, I've been getting a jones to do a couple low & slows, like around 225-250. I normally cook on a stickburner or a UDS, which I'm guessing will be a different environment than a keg or egg - and I have a feeling kegs and especially eggs are a moister environment, but I don't know that for sure. You really need to look at what the meat looks/feels like and go by that - if the bark is set, if it seems like it's the way you want it to be, then foil it - if not, don't until it is the way you want it. I would ignore the time factor and just go by appearance - that said, don't be peeking too much!

I used to use a mustard slather to help the rub adhere, but I haven't lately, it doesn't seem to be all that necessary to me. Some folks will use a little olive oil.


***on edit - just saw the thing about no sugar - I think that would definitely have something to do with it.

[Oldyote]

I know all foil is not created equal. And make sure to use the non-stick side.

[fingerlickin']

When I cook my ribs in foil I usually have them facing up instead of down laying in all of the juices. You might try that if you haven't yet.

[Bigmista]

Are you adding anything liquid or something that liquefies (brown sugar) to the foil?

[CarolinaQue]

thanks. I'm actually thinking the lack of any sugar whatsoever may have been a big part of the problem.


bazinga!!!

[superlazy]

Good to know. Thanks. How long was it in the foil and did you pull it out and cook it naked for any length of time after the foil phase?
It was on the wsm until around 1pm in the foil. Then wrapped it in a bath towel and put in a small cooler until the wife and kids got home about 3pm.
I know exactly what i Did Different. from the past More sugar!!!
I tried a diff. rub recipe and it was too hot, too smokey raw so I added a bunch of brown & white sugar and more garlic & mustard powder to the rub
just yummy

You really have to taste the rub raw and expect some flavors to mellow

[CarolinaQue]

^^^This is especially true or back notes like cayanne or chipotle powder^^^

They will mellow a great deal over a long cook.

[NorthwestBBQ]

So foiling loses the rub. Where does it go?

[Hook_Line_and_Sinker]

I use foil pans and cover with foil on butts and have seen softening mostly and some washing on the bottom but not washed off. Does your bark brush off if you handle it? Is it dark? Are you using home made rub or commercial? If it not commercial you might start there and progress in steps to see what is the cause.

[gtr]

So foiling loses the rub. Where does it go?

With all the socks, pens, and sunglasses of course. And probably my bluetooth car speaker charger cable too.

[BIGBrandon2785]

This what I do and I normally do not have that problem of losing the bark.
-Apply the rub the night before and wrap in plastic wrap or in zip loc bag.Store in fridge
-Let the bark set,so I let it cook about 1/2 of the estimated time before I foil it.
-Use non stick foil,
-And if I add any liquid I make sure I do not over use
-And use a good quality rub,(just read reviews to see which is the best for what your cooking,Im a Yardbird fan myself)

[Phrasty]

Use one of these with a rack on the bottom for the meat to sit on all sealed up:
http://iweb.cooking.com/images/products/enlarge/729840e.jpg

the problem most of the time is that the rub gets washed off. Keep it out of the liquid and keep foil from really touching it and it will be fine (if I'm understanding your question correctly.) :wink:

Cheers

[RedPig]

The moist environment created when you foil will soften the bark and I believe the longer its in the foil and the higher the temp, the more the bark will soften or dissipate. Ive had good end results by lowering the temp when the meat goes into the foil I also remove it out of the foil and back on the cooker naked so that the bark can reset itself somewhat. Before I foil I make sure the meat has the color I want and also its in a certain temp range.

[Baby Back Maniac]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the help. It seems like my mail problems are lack of sugar in the rub and not allowing it enough time to set. I've recently started using commercial rubs instead of making my own. Is there enough sugar in SM Cherry to get the job done or should I add more to it?

[gtr]

^^^SM Cherry needs no help whatsoever - it's farking great stuff.

[deguerre]

Use one of these with a rack on the bottom for the meat to sit on all sealed up:
http://iweb.cooking.com/images/products/enlarge/729840e.jpg

the problem most of the time is that the rub gets washed off. Keep it out of the liquid and keep foil from really touching it and it will be fine (if I'm understanding your question correctly.) :wink:

Cheers

Yep. This is what I do with brisket when I'm not finishing one off with a braise. I never foil pork though.

[TX_LJ]

It's the exact same as the secret to getting crispy skin on low & slow chicken.:wink:

Come on now - you can't really just toss that out there and walk away with no explanation and expect to be taken seriously. :becky: :boxing:

Share with the class please...I've yet to get really crispy skin on my chickens, but I don't have a problem losing the rub on my ribs. :mrgreen:

[Pitmaster T]

It's the exact same as the secret to getting crispy skin on low & slow chicken.:wink:


Wow, you had to bring my "Sista Dredge into it."


To the OP... have you considered working on your skills to raise them to the point where you do not have to foil. Technically, those you speak of who "use foil successfully" are simply failures at not using foil. :loco:

I am just kidding... but only to the failures out there who would take offense at my last sentence. How many could that be? And yes, there are complete failures that are world champions. :-)

Seriously, I am kidding... its okay to foil... just another way...there are lots of different ways to get cook BBQ and to get your rocks off. There are those of us who like thinking of Jessica Alba (non foilers) and others who think of Elton John's big bloated body (foilers).

Okay I was joking there too. Chris is right though about the skin... same secret.

[Baby Back Maniac]

Wow, you had to bring my "Sista Dredge into it."


To the OP... have you considered working on your skills to raise them to the point where you do not have to foil. Technically, those you speak of who "use foil successfully" are simply failures at not using foil. :loco:

I am just kidding... but only to the failures out there who would take offense at my last sentence. How many could that be? And yes, there are complete failures that are world champions. :-)

Seriously, I am kidding... its okay to foil... just another way...there are lots of different ways to get cook BBQ and to get your rocks off. There are those of us who like thinking of Jessica Alba (non foilers) and others who think of Elton John's big bloated body (foilers).

Okay I was joking there too. Chris is right though about the skin... same secret.

Not offended by the jokes...just the lack of useful suggestions. ;) Help me "improve my skills", Jessica.

[Happy Hapgood]

Are you familiar with "the Stall" ? I can't post a site that explains it but maybe you could do a search here. In a nutshell, foiling is used to power through a time when the internal temp of the meat does not rise for a long period of time. It's also referred to around my state as "The Texas Crutch".

That's the only time I use foil, when time becomes a factor.

[Pitmaster T]

I will help you improve yo' skills. All my stellas know.

Do you know what is meant by
the words, huh, I hate to use
them, they're so harsh, so
American...I mean, and yet on
the other hand, they're
exciting words. The words...
(pause)
CHILI SAUCE

Oh, Lord. Jessie... Pm me yo' jeans size. ;-)

[Shiz-Nit]

I will help you improve yo' skills. All my stellas know.

Do you know what is meant by
the words, huh, I hate to use
them, they're so harsh, so
American...I mean, and yet on
the other hand, they're
exciting words. The words...
(pause)
CHILI SAUCE

Oh, Lord. Jessie... Pm me yo' jeans size. ;-)

Give us the funk on this Bro like no other can reach like you.

[Pitmaster T]

There is an inherent joke in what I posted and no one ever calls me on it. LOL

Sure I don't use foil... and I say I don't wrap... but really, thats bull and I always assume people will catch on. Especially if anyone has that pic of me behind like 15 briskets.

[CarolinaQue]

Jessica...just understand this place is all in good fun really...especially if Pitmaster T is involved!!!

[Pitmaster T]

When the briskets are done, I wrap my briskets in plastic wrap which of course softens the bark but does not knock it off. When I unwrap them tons of juice pours out, and after a while the bark snaps back, not as hard as it was but its there, its crispy and its dark.

This means that unlike other attempts, where people add crap to their rub to manufacture a nice bark, if my bark stays on, and theirs falls off.... maybe its the hardened rub thats falling off?

So, in essense, what it is about the process itself is less related to wrapping initially than the whole process of cooking.

My Bark is like...well... the JBs.... while other barks are like.... lets see.... any typical rap group trying to perform live... undoubtly black... BUT when someone tries to perform live.... there is a problem! A terrible problem.


Remember the Funk not only Moves it cannot be REMOVED!

[Baby Back Maniac]

When the briskets are done, I wrap my briskets in plastic wrap which of course softens the bark but does not knock it off. When I unwrap them tons of juice pours out, and after a while the bark snaps back, not as hard as it was but its there, its crispy and its dark.

This means that unlike other attempts, where people add crap to their rub to manufacture a nice bark, if my bark stays on, and theirs falls off.... maybe its the hardened rub thats falling off?

So, in essense, what it is about the process itself is less related to wrapping initially than the whole process of cooking.

My Bark is like...well... the JBs.... while other barks are like.... lets see.... any typical rap group trying to perform live... undoubtly black... BUT when someone tries to perform live.... there is a problem! A terrible problem.


Remember the Funk not only Moves it cannot be REMOVED!



So are you saying you don't use a rub at all? Is that what I'm hearing? So no rub = nothing to fall off?

Cook the whole time without foil and then wrap with plastic wrap at the end during the rest?

[pwa]

as been said try this and foil over top:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4655/img4152c.jpg

I got a pair from Amazon here

pwa

[Tatoosh]

I've started boating the foil, which is simply putting the ribs in a large pan and foiling over that. They don't sit and soak so much that way. I even pile them on top of each other so they all fit in the one pan. bone side down, 1/4 inch of apple juice (freshly juiced, right?) and the bark is in pretty good shape, the couple of times I've done it.

Errr...what PWA showed you. Perfect!

[IamMadMan]

I realize a lot of people don't "believe" in foiling and I respect that, but I am asking advice from people who have used it successfully.

I typically don't use foil because any time I do nearly all the rub washes off. This happens with any meat I foil no matter what cooker temp. I typically will cook butts and briskets to about 165 internal and then foil until fork tender. With ribs, I typically go 2 or 3 hours naked before foiling for another hour. My rubs are usually a basic salt, pepper, garlic, and onion rub or a doctored up season all (no sugar).

By the time I foil, my rub has already become a firm bark on the surface of the ribs.

I've find no matter which meat I use, once the meat goes into the foil, I end up losing all the bark and rub on the outside and I'm pretty much starting over. The texture is not much different than the meat would have from a crock pot...It just has the added smoke flavor.

I can't answer that, but when I remove from my foil, my bark is still intact. I apply rub using tetiyaki sauce and let sit for at leat 12 hours coved in the fridge before taking to the smoker.

I actually like the internal texture of foiled meats better because I find it to be more moist but I hate wasting/missing the rub/bark. I would appreciate any advice on how to get the best of both worlds.
Thank you in advance.

I also never foiled until I came to the forum, and now I do. (With butts or shoulders I use a foil covered pan in place of just foil.) I lay the foil down put the ribs on the foil rub side up, and gently fold the foil over the top of the ribs.

When I open and remove the ribs from the foil the bark is soft, but not gone, and putting it back onto the grates firms up the bark again. An occasional spritz with apple juice keeps the the ribs moist and forms a glaze over the rub / ribs.

.

[Pitmaster T]

So are you saying you don't use a rub at all? Is that what I'm hearing? So no rub = nothing to fall off?

Cook the whole time without foil and then wrap with plastic wrap at the end during the rest?

Well, not exactly/at all.

I have seen a lot of people who add stuff to their rubs that either burns in the process or chalks or even ashes up. There is a nice balance to a good rub that does not include too much powder....

In my discourse on Salt and your rub I think I hint at how people began to go astray on flavor profiles, thinking, if they add more onion or garlic powder etc to their rub there would be a higher flavor profile (for whatever they ramped up). This ends up not true as it makes the salt (which is the carrier of the flavor) ratio lower. So the days when people used to PACK on the rubs ended up making some real gross bark (which essentially was not bark at all. Adding components like sugars that were assuredly burn were undesirable as well... at least for Brisket.

So the question is.... is your bark a result of the affect of heat on your meat, or your rub? (And an unbalanced ratio acting upon your rub foremost and less so on your meat is undesirable too).

When mine comes out of the wrap.... since the affect of the rub is on the meat... it will not fall off... it is bonded in a different way than thick coatings of the WRONG type of rubs. I say the WRONG type of rubs because if anyone has seen my process you will see granite looking briskets covered in salt and pepper.