Let's play rate my boxes

[Bigmista]

Here ya go! Let me have it!

Chicken (yes I did this on purpose)

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/NBBQA%20Conference/IMG_20120310_121718.jpg


Ribs

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/NBBQA%20Conference/IMG_20120310_125932.jpg

Brisket

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/NBBQA%20Conference/IMG_20120310_142910.jpg


Didn't get a pork pic due to time restraints.

Ok, let me have it.

[Fat Freddy]

Since I already saw these posted on facebook Neil. I wont say much that you dont know already. But personally I like the chicken. Its a different turn in but looks good. As for the ribs they LOOK amazing IN the box :rolleyes:. And that brisket to me looks good, I think as a judge I would enjoy all of those turn in boxes and give very good scores on all 3.

[yelonutz]

I have seen several of your turn in boxes and NONE have ever looked as good as these. The pork and brisket would both be 9's and the chicken an 8. Are you going to post your scores?

NUTZ

[Bbq Bubba]

WOW! After seeing your finish, i expected a bad day building boxes but those look great. Not a fan of the side by side on ribs but they look good.

[Bbq Bubba]

BTW....I like the chicken. :)

[ique]

I'd like to see more meat, less greens on chicken and ribs....

[Jaskew82]

I'd like to see more meat, less greens on chicken and ribs....

I agree with this. The chicken seems to be almost overtaken by the greenery. I do like that you didn't go with thighs though.

[HOG WILD BBQ]

9.5 on the ribs if they taste as good as they look, 8.5 on brisket, and 8.0 on the chicken.

[Q-Dat]

Chicken looks really good! Is that pulled, dark meat, or slices of breast meat?

[Bigmista]

Pulled thigh meat.

[Parts_Guy]

9,8,8...Chicken looks great.

[AZScott]

I'm with Chris on the parsley. It buries the meat a little and on ribs it throws the eyes off a bit not seeing the parsley on either side. I know it shouldn't be judged but it does affect the scores. I think your brisket looks good but there are knife marks on that front slice. This is really minute but looking at the curvature on your slices it looks like you mixed up your pieces. The three in the middle have corners on both sides while the other slices do not. That's nitpicky but I wouldn't be surprised if someone picked it up.

If I turned those, in I'd expect an average of 8 from the 6 scores. I'm sure your chicken threw them off though so that was perhaps 7.5 avg. What were they?

[Bigmista]

Slices did get mixed. A couple broke while I was dipping them in Au Jus.

[Stoke&Smoke]

I would go 888. Chicken looks interesting, but not enough meat to green as others said, ribs look good, but could use a little more shine (might just be the photo)

[Gowan]

I'd go 9 on the brisket and ribs, but only an 8 on the chicken. Maybe it's the lighting of the shot, but it just doesn't grab me as appetizing like the other two.

[Rich Parker]

The chicken does not look appealing to me at all. Maybe better if it was in person. The ribs floor me because I seen your scores this week and if this box is from there I am shocked. I was expecting Pablo Diablo BBQ rib box.

[Lake Dogs]

7 9 9

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

7 9 9

I'll agree with Lake Dogs. I thought I was looking at pork for split second before I saw the caption.

[mikerobes]

Meat looks great, except those slice's look thick. To much green on those awesome ribs, maybe add a couple more would fix it.

[Bigmista]

I would go 888. Chicken looks interesting, but not enough meat to green as others said, ribs look good, but could use a little more shine (might just be the photo)

Just out of curiousity, why do you think the ribs need to shine? If they are shiny, wouldn't that be too much sauce? Do you think it could be shiny without being sweet? I was going for a savory flavor. If it was shinier, there would be too much sugar (honey, syrup, etc.) and it would hide the flavor of the meat.

So the question is are you judging what you think it should be or are you judging whether or not I achieved what I was trying to do?

[Bigmista]

Meat looks great, except those slice's look thick. To much green on those awesome ribs, maybe add a couple more would fix it.

If that's the case, aren't you judging the greens and not the meat? You said they are awesome looking ribs. Wouldn't that make them a 9, regardless of what the greens look like? Don't the contest reps stress this fact?

[swamprb]

I like the Chicken- but pulled bird is a DQ in PNWBALand!
Nice color-is that the new Chicken rub? I gotta get some of that!

I'm all for more meat less pasture, but everything looks fantastic.

[Tack]

chicken 8 brisket a solid 9 ribs a solid 9 for the meat. on the ribs however I feel that if the ribs were "sitting Higher" and not looking like they were being swallowed by the greenery it wuold have even more eye popping appeal.

[BasicPatrick]

Chicken...not a lot of meat means small portions to get 6 samples...looks like a lot of sauce could be hiding overcooked so I'd score it a 7 = above average

Ribs...Good color perfect glaze and even slices get you an 8 = very good...not a lot of WOW to make the 9 but a solid 8

Brisket...the brown dots/smudges/injection marks on that first slice are killing the appeal factor (for me)...also the the exposed meat on all slices have spotty dry and wet spots that are an indicator of overcooked...I'd score a 7 =above average

Sorry Neal but you asked

[Bigmista]

Chicken...not a lot of meat means small portions to get 6 samples...looks like a lot of sauce could be hiding overcooked so I'd score it a 7 = above average

Ribs...Good color perfect glaze and even slices get you an 8 = very good...not a lot of WOW to make the 9 but a solid 8

Brisket...the brown dots/smudges/injection marks on that first slice are killing the appeal factor (for me)...also the the exposed meat on all slices have spotty dry and wet spots that are an indicator of overcooked...I'd score a 7 =above average

Sorry Neal but you asked

Never apologize for your opinion, especially if I ask for it.

Chicken - Isn't overcooked or undercooked a function of texture, not appearance? If it isn't bleeding or burnt, how can you assume it's overcooked or that I was hiding something? You should be judging on what is presented, not what you think it might be.

Ribs - If they have good color, perfect glaze and even cuts, what else do you need for WOW factor? What's missing?

Brisket - I had just sprayed with apple juice before taking that pic. We were in a very dry area. The black dot is a spec of black pepper. Again, how do you know this overcooked? Because some parts look juicier than others? Nothing is even in meat. It's organic material.

This is the reason I post my boxes. To challenge the judges out there and see what their thought processes are. You are supposed to judge on what is presented, ignore greens and smoke rings and not compare to something you have seen or tasted before.

[ThomEmery]

I loved that you tried something different with the Chicken box
Are the Brisket slices thick or is it just the picture?

[Stoke&Smoke]

Fair question.....and don't worry..haven't judged in 4-5 years.

You're only judging appearance here. Shiny looks juicier(IMHO)

Can only tell for sure by tasting

Just doesn't "pop" to the eye as much

BTW...I don't think shine and sweet go hand in hand

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

[NRA4Life]

C - 7
R - 7
B - 7

Looking at the link to the results of this contest, http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127958, you know where you got hammered on the scores, T&T. Did you receive any comment cards from the judges? You also might want to submit your pictures to bbqcritic.com and receive anonymous unbiased feedback from those judges...although you don't get to interact with them and question their reasoning.

[billm]

id love to see more chicken turn ins like that

[Hot Grill on Grill Logan]

Chicken - 8 a little saucy in appearance, but unique.
Ribs - 8 (would like to see the meat cross section)
Brisket - 9. Looks damn good to me.

[Solidkick]

Neil....you know I love you......

Chicken--6
My first impression is not bbq, but Chinese....teriyaki chicken....where's the noodles?

Ribs--8
I'm not a fan of 6 straight across, I like the angle better, consider 4 on 4 if you like the straight look, makes the box fuller.

Brisket--7
The thickness of the slices, first impression, leads me to believe it is over done and to get the slices to hold together they had to be cut that thick.

But what do I know....

[ique]

If that's the case, aren't you judging the greens and not the meat? You said they are awesome looking ribs. Wouldn't that make them a 9, regardless of what the greens look like? Don't the contest reps stress this fact?

Aren't you assuming a perfect world where all judges are well trained and understand these finer points?

I think you need to assume many judges don't get this idea to judge things as the cook intended. More meat and more shine, you need to build boxes that impress both good judges and lousy ones.

[JohnJ]

What was the makeup of the judges at the comp? 100% certified? I think some comps are advertised as 100% but sometimes that doesn't happen. I have sat with some guys who are in culinary school and talk about very critical! One guy had done well over 80 KCBS comps and his scores, (talking to him afterward of course) were surprising low. The table captain kept asking him to fill out comment cards. He had a stack. Maybe continued KCBS judge training will be a good thing.

Also, a lot of newbies are coming out and, (I haven't checked), but I'll bet the chicken was scored low because no one had ever been presented with pulled chicken thigh. It seems as if whole trimmed thighs is "the only way" to go.

I thought the chicken looked good. Never saw it presented that way. Did look small in the box, but a solid 7. It looked good... above average.

I love that the ribs are glossed nicely, even color throughout and even in size. Those ribs were a very solid 8 to me in appearance. I do like to look or see the cuts and how that meat looks in that exposed cut. I really wanted to try one of those! They looked very good. Maybe a 9 but I am one who likes to see the whole rib, cuts and all so an 8 from me.

I felt that the 1/4 inch or so cut of brisket was perfect. I like a thicker cut. Again, even color/crust/rub on top and looks moist. Color of face looked even... They looked very good, an 8.

Now I have to check and see what you did get... did you post them?

John

[pat]

I would eat that brisket all day long and twice on Sunday :thumb:

[Lake Dogs]

Aren't you assuming a perfect world where all judges are well trained and understand these finer points?

I think you need to assume many judges don't get this idea to judge things as the cook intended. More meat and more shine, you need to build boxes that impress both good judges and lousy ones.

Sadly, you're 100% spot-on Chris!!!

[Bigmista]

Neil....you know I love you......

Chicken--6
My first impression is not bbq, but Chinese....teriyaki chicken....where's the noodles?

Ribs--8
I'm not a fan of 6 straight across, I like the angle better, consider 4 on 4 if you like the straight look, makes the box fuller.

Brisket--7
The thickness of the slices, first impression, leads me to believe it is over done and to get the slices to hold together they had to be cut that thick.

But what do I know....

Never question the love and I asked for opinions. I prefer honesty.

[Bigmista]

Aren't you assuming a perfect world where all judges are well trained and understand these finer points?

I think you need to assume many judges don't get this idea to judge things as the cook intended. More meat and more shine, you need to build boxes that impress both good judges and lousy ones.

I agree that this definitely isn't a perfect world. But it's my nature to challenge the status quo rather than acquiesce. Somebody has to try get judges open their eyes a little more.

You guys use flavors and techniques that aren't traditional and so do I. (Of course you are much better at it than I am.) But judges need hear over and over again to judge what is presented, not what they think it SHOULD be. I think it is up to us to remind them of that.

I guess you could say I tend to take one for the team.

[ique]

I agree that this definitely isn't a perfect world. But it's my nature to challenge the status quo rather than acquiesce. Somebody has to try get judges open their eyes a little more.

You guys use flavors and techniques that aren't traditional and so do I. (Of course you are much better at it than I am.) But judges need hear over and over again to judge what is presented, not what they think it SHOULD be. I think it is up to us to remind them of that.

I guess you could say I tend to take one for the team.

I have often tried outside the box boxes ;-)

Almost always get killed when I do. :-)

[Bigmista]

I've adopted the motto that I am better at feeding 600 people than I am at feeding 6 people.

[big brother smoke]

I gave up on thinking outside the box, Neil. Jump into the box and earn some gas money home at least. :rolleyes:

[JD McGee]

Gotta agree with Chris and Steph on this one Neil...more meat...less green! Hey...come on up to our place the end of April...we are having our first PNWBA "no garnish" two day comp! The judges have NO choice but to judge the meat...should be interesting!

[Slamdunkpro]

And from the East German Judge:

Chicken - 4 - my first thought was "someone turned in their pork box by mistake" Second though: Someone turned in their Chinese chicken lunch. It might be a function of how dark the photo is but it looks thrown in the box, hidden in the greens, way over sauced, and not appealing on any level.

Ribs - 6 - They're just, there. Nothing about them makes me want to pick one up. Average take out ribs.

Brisket - 7 - Again the tint to the picture might skew this a bit. Better than average effort. Brush marks and black spot on the the first slice. looks like saw marks on a couple of slices (could be brush marks). Some ragged cuts and crumbs up on the bark. Nice overall color and nice bark.

[Bigmista]

I gave up on thinking outside the box, Neil. Jump into the box and earn some gas money home at least. :rolleyes:

Did that with People's Choice. Phyllis left with an ass pocket full of money.

[Ryan Chester]

All I can say is you are crazy as hell. You are one dude who is down to get funky with chicken.

[big brother smoke]

Did that with People's Choice. Phyllis left with an ass pocket full of money.


Not going to go there :twisted:

[BasicPatrick]

Never apologize for your opinion, especially if I ask for it.

Chicken - Isn't overcooked or undercooked a function of texture, not appearance? If it isn't bleeding or burnt, how can you assume it's overcooked or that I was hiding something? You should be judging on what is presented, not what you think it might be.

Ribs - If they have good color, perfect glaze and even cuts, what else do you need for WOW factor? What's missing?

Brisket - I had just sprayed with apple juice before taking that pic. We were in a very dry area. The black dot is a spec of black pepper. Again, how do you know this overcooked? Because some parts look juicier than others? Nothing is even in meat. It's organic material.

This is the reason I post my boxes. To challenge the judges out there and see what their thought processes are. You are supposed to judge on what is presented, ignore greens and smoke rings and not compare to something you have seen or tasted before.

Ok...You want the cooks response, her fit is...The reason I participate in these online judging threads is because I am a cook continuing to get better.:help: In this case I did judge based on the presentation, I did ignore the greens and smoke ring. You got scored based on what you presented.:noidea:

Now I will put my "as pit master our product has to be perfect because we can't afford to loose another one":first::first: hat on and give you the super anal feedback I ask my home testers to give me when practicing boxes at home :loco: aka the unedited East Coast version:cop::spy:

Chicken: You presented a small amount of heavily sauced pulled chicken. Over sauced and not enough meat is what gains the score. That is not appealing for a professional competition quality bbq chicken presentation.]

Ribs: Forget the wow factor description. What is missing is a complete presentation of the ribs. You are only presenting the top side and that is not enough. Why block four sides with garnish and instead present it in such a way so that more of it can be seen. In addition take a close look at the top side you are presenting. From center left the ribs are more dry and from center right they are more wet. The appearance is inconsistent from rib to rib. That is what prevents the 8 from being a 9.

Brisket: Whether that first slice has 5 black specs of some organic material or 5 holes from probes/injectors or a combination of both; in either case it is far from natural looking and the fact that it has come up here is proof it is distracting from the appearance of the meat. In addition the brown splotches on the front slice and again on a slice further back are anything but natural and surely look like injection. Maybe it's just inconsistent sauce or worse, natural discoloration on your meat. It really doesn't matter what it is because it is certainly is not appealing.

:behindsofa:I hope you still feel the love:yield:...someday we will meat :argue:and I will bring the seafood :hungry:

[Bigmista]

Ok...You want the cooks response, her fit is...The reason I participate in these online judging threads is because I am a cook continuing to get better.:help: In this case I did judge based on the presentation, I did ignore the greens and smoke ring. You got scored based on what you presented.:noidea:

Now I will put my "as pit master our product has to be perfect because we can't afford to loose another one":first::first: hat on and give you the super anal feedback I ask my home testers to give me when practicing boxes at home :loco: aka the unedited East Coast version:cop::spy:

Chicken: You presented a small amount of heavily sauced pulled chicken. Over sauced and not enough meat is what gains the score. That is not appealing for a professional competition quality bbq chicken presentation.]

Ribs: Forget the wow factor description. What is missing is a complete presentation of the ribs. You are only presenting the top side and that is not enough. Why block four sides with garnish and instead present it in such a way so that more of it can be seen. In addition take a close look at the top side you are presenting. From center left the ribs are more dry and from center right they are more wet. The appearance is inconsistent from rib to rib. That is what prevents the 8 from being a 9.

Brisket: Whether that first slice has 5 black specs of some organic material or 5 holes from probes/injectors or a combination of both; in either case it is far from natural looking and the fact that it has come up here is proof it is distracting from the appearance of the meat. In addition the brown splotches on the front slice and again on a slice further back are anything but natural and surely look like injection. Maybe it's just inconsistent sauce or worse, natural discoloration on your meat. It really doesn't matter what it is because it is certainly is not appealing.

:behindsofa:I hope you still feel the love:yield:...someday we will meat :argue:and I will bring the seafood :hungry:


That's the kind of feedback I like. The kind that makes you uncomfortable and want to get better. I learned long time ago that I can love you and still disagree with you. Like I said before, I prefer honesty.

[MattG]

8,9,9

[JD McGee]

Did that with People's Choice. Phyllis left with an ass pocket full of money.

An ass pocket full of money is a good thing brother...but an ass pocket full of money with a trophy is better! A lot of good advice up there...:thumb::becky:

[Bigmista]

Don't think I won't take that advice to heart!

[Funtimebbq]

I loved that you tried something different with the Chicken box
Are the Brisket slices thick or is it just the picture?

Thom,

If you see this chicken box again when judging, are you going to give it a higher/lower score thinking it may be Neil's?

[Gowan]

Ribs--8
I'm not a fan of 6 straight across, I like the angle better, consider 4 on 4 if you like the straight look, makes the box fuller.

Brisket--7
The thickness of the slices, first impression, leads me to believe it is over done and to get the slices to hold together they had to be cut that thick.



Ugh. Can't stand by and let the above pass, as both are perfect examples of failing to adhere to to KCBS judging criteria.

Ribs: It doesn't matter how you prefer to build a box. The judge's job is to evaluate the entry as presented. Perhaps there were other reasons for your score, but to mark appearance down because you would have preferred another arrangement is wrong.

Brisket: As judges, we are to score appearance based on what we can see in the box, not on guesses as to the cook's motivations. The slices could be thick simply because the cook wanted them that way and be perfectly tender. Same goes for speculation that sauce is hiding something, lack of garnish indicates a novice team, etc. Taste and tenderness comes later - save your thoughts on these criteria for that part of the scoring after you have actually put the sample in your mouth.

FWIW, in my experience, people are much more picky about scoring photos of boxes than seeing boxes live at the judging table. In the judging tent the light is often poor and you only have 2-5 seconds to view the box (which is often moving). Flecks of pepper or a small spot of sauce on the garnish are much less of a factor when you are under the gun than when you are studying an image at your leisure on a computer screen.

[Crash]

Chicken - As a judge, I'd take anyone's word that the meat is the correct meat until I taste it. Just based on the photo represented, I'd agree with the 7's. I don't care that it is pulled, I just care about the presentation at this point and it does look above average. That being said, I can see how at least one of the other 2 scores could get hurt by turning in a pulled chicken product.

Ribs - An 8, lower end of 8, but an 8 nonetheless. Sure, I want to see more meat....but I'm not judging on that. Sure I want to see less green, but I'm not judging that either. I wonder initially if there are an additonal X # of slices under those 6 ribs? Those ribs almost seem to be sitting high to me.
* Sidenote - As a cook, I like to turn in a shinier rib like some of the others.

Brisket - This is the one I had the most difficulty with. My first thoughts are that it was overly cooked, hence the thick slices. I agree with the others on that, BUT I would not judge down on that. Like another poster said, maybe you just wanted to slice them that thick. I'd judge this one as a 7 on appearance for these reasons: streaking/splotching on the face of the cuts, cuts look like they were placed randomly, possibly not in order of cutting (allowing the mind's eye to wander), possible injection holes, jagged cuts on the bark edges.

So to sum it up 7,8,7.

Keep in mind Neil, I'm a 2-time KCBS certified judge that has never judged a sanctioned event. I'm just a cook that used to cook competitively a lot more than I do now.

Hope some of that helps dude.

Aloha.

[Solidkick]

Ugh. Can't stand by and let the above pass, as both are perfect examples of failing to adhere to to KCBS judging criteria.

Ribs: It doesn't matter how you prefer to build a box. The judge's job is to evaluate the entry as presented. Perhaps there were other reasons for your score, but to mark appearance down because you would have preferred another arrangement is wrong.

Brisket: As judges, we are to score appearance based on what we can see in the box, not on guesses as to the cook's motivations. The slices could be thick simply because the cook wanted them that way and be perfectly tender. Same goes for speculation that sauce is hiding something, lack of garnish indicates a novice team, etc. Taste and tenderness comes later - save your thoughts on these criteria for that part of the scoring after you have actually put the sample in your mouth.

FWIW, in my experience, people are much more picky about scoring photos of boxes than seeing boxes live at the judging table. In the judging tent the light is often poor and you only have 2-5 seconds to view the box (which is often moving). Flecks of pepper or a small spot of sauce on the garnish are much less of a factor when you are under the gun than when you are studying an image at your leisure on a computer screen.

You are absolutely correct! I got burned out on the site as a moderator and chose to stay away for a long while. Then I drop in and offered my opinion on something that I am no longer in touch with.

[SHBBQ]

As a competitor, i choose not to judge your box based on appearance as it may help you beat me in competition one day! :wink:

[Muzzlebrake]

As a competitor, i choose not to judge your box based on appearance as it may help you beat me in competition one day! :wink:

no offense, but if you believe that, you don't get what this place is about or the spirit behind most of the competitors I know.

[Gowan]

You are absolutely correct! I got burned out on the site as a moderator and chose to stay away for a long while. Then I drop in and offered my opinion on something that I am no longer in touch with.

No worries, brother.

I wasn't trying to slam you at all. I just think it's important to address misconceptions for any future judges who might end up reading this thread down the road. Thanks for your posts; they may help somebody else.

It's not easy being a judge and a cook, because we have a natural tendency to compare entries to the way we would have done it!

-GF

[SHBBQ]

no offense, but if you believe that, you don't get what this place is about or the spirit behind most of the competitors I know.

hey i put a wink after it. and you did say no offense, so none taken. :-P

[BigBobBQ]

I am not a judge but here is my unprofessional opinion for what it is worth.

The chicken looks great but with all of the greens it looks out of proportion like you were running out, I think more chicken would help improve the overall look of the box to even things out.

I have to say the color on the ribs and the presetation looks very nice but I think the greens should go all the way around the ribs, I know that is hard with a limited amount of space. I like the carmalization and the glossy color that they have.

The brisket has a nice bark but don't see alot of a smoke ring. I dont know if it is just the picture or not but it looks a little grainy and dry but that might not be the case.

I am a firm believer you eat with your eyes first, and they do look good and I would love to be able to taste what it is like. I wouldn't score badly probably 7 for chicken 8 for ribs and 7 for brisket on looks but if the taste was spot on I would score up from there.

[El Pistolero]

The brisket has a nice bark but don't see alot of a smoke ring.

Not supposed to take the smoke ring into consideration.

[Contracted Cookers]

Not supposed to take the smoke ring into consideration.
yeah right

[Muzzlebrake]

hey i put a wink after it. and you did say no offense, so none taken. :-P

Perfect! :becky::thumb:
My round stop by for a beverage sometime
:rockon:

[Big Poppa]

its always good to see how appearance is mis judged./.

[SHBBQ]

Perfect! :becky::thumb:
My round stop by for a beverage sometime
:rockon:

you know it, see you at roc city.