KCBS - looking at allowing gas/ LP

[carlyle]

At the rules meeting at San Diego the issue of allowing gas and or LP grills

came up again. The rules committee will be looking into this possibility.

Of course there was immediate reaction on both sides of the issue.

The logic of proponents of this change pointed to the abundance of grills in

most of the homes in the country. And that allowing them in KCBS would or

could broaden the interest and participation in KCBS.

What was said was that KCBS needed input from the membership on this

hot button issue.


I could not think of a better place to get the word out and begin the

discussion than right here.

I am not advocating one way or the other.

It seems to me that this represents a big change in philosophy and

direction for KCBS. And it seems the motivation is purely money.

If you have an opinion one way or the other, you need to have your voice

heard. There was a very small audience at this meeting and the discussion

needs to involve everyone who wishes to be heard.

So -- what do you think?

[djqualls]

A stick of wood doesn't explode at 3,000 degrees. Serious safety/liability issues would have to be considered. I have a Kingfisher with a propane insert I'd love to use but what about some nimrod who rigged a burner and tank to his homemade barrel?

[Sledneck]

I'm all for it.

[Munchee]

If someone with a $100 gas grill from Walmart or a $30,000 dollar Southern Pride wants to compete I don't see where heat source should be an issue. It would bring in more interest from the public seeing a pro cook win on the same backyard gas grill that they use. And for people selling products to the hobbiest market it would make it simple to do user friendly recipes. Lite grill and .......

[Smokin' Hicks]

this is a joke.....one main reason could be said as the grills in the backyard are mostly propane and that's where they belong IN THE BACKYARD....i would consider this one of the arts of the "professional" cook vs. "backyard" cook.....but hell they let pellet poopers in so might as well, not to much difference i guess

[Smokin' Hicks]

and i couldn't agree more about the dumb ass who makes a homemade propane smoker and has this 80 lbs propane tank jerry rigged to it with his idea of a "big grand finale" when hes done cooking....i'll pass

[The_Kapn]

People who feel the need to insult others loose all, and I mean 100%, of their credibility with me.

I am happy to cook against any cooker with any heat source anytime.

May the best product win.

TIM

[Dan - 3eyzbbq]

Bring it on, I'm all for the change

[smokeyw]

Speaking from a safety standpoint, 99% of all cookers competing in NCPC whole hog competitions are cooking with propane today. There are some safety rules and regulations that must be followed and there is usually a cooker inspection. I have yet to see an accident. In fact, some of the competitions prohibit wood due to safety reasons. Go figure! I don't think safety would be an issue with proper rules.

As far as the other reasons, I think the end product will stand on it's own. I don't really think a propane unit can be competitive in a KCBS event but if people want to give it a shot, I say bring it on. I cook in NCPC events with gas (and win my fair share) but would never try that in a KCBS event. And when I want some really good Q, I fire up my smoker.

[Smokin' Hicks]

not trying to insult anyone at all BUT, if someone rigs together some contraption that is propane fired and its dangerous to the people around them then i can't think of a better name than dumb ass

[Smokin' Hicks]

is having wood as the primary heat source in KCBS comp.'s kind of some of the integrity of the comp.? is controlling your cooker and feeding it the right amount of fuel some of the skill in BBQ? or is it strictly, 100% about the rubs, sauces, and cooking methods?
i was always under the impression that this was a part of the art of BBQ... building, controlling, and maintaining your fire....maybe i was wrong

[MilitantSquatter]

is having wood as the primary heat source in KCBS comp.'s kind of some of the integrity of the comp.? is controlling your cooker and feeding it the right amount of fuel some of the skill in BBQ? or is it strictly, 100% about the rubs, sauces, and cooking methods?
i was always under the impression that this was a part of the art of BBQ... building, controlling, and maintaining your fire....maybe i was wrong

you may be right from a personal perspective but if you go to the KCBS website and read the About Us, Mission Statement and History page, no where does it talk about strictly wood cookery and what that encompasses. It only does this from a competition rules perspective...


Let's face it, someone with an entrepreneurial mindset and some $ could tap into the much larger market of propane cooks and replicate what KCBS has built... people will go to where the trends are and follow the $$.

Better to figure out a way to make it work and be inclusive (like the separate divisions), rather than go the way of the dinosaurs.

[Smokin' Hicks]

now that is a good idea, separate divisions and maybe a championship type of event between the two divisions....there is always debate on which is better or worse wood or propane so why not take advantage of the debate.....

[rawtalent]

Speaking from a safety standpoint, 99% of all cookers competing in NCPC whole hog competitions are cooking with propane today. There are some safety rules and regulations that must be followed and there is usually a cooker inspection. I have yet to see an accident. In fact, some of the competitions prohibit wood due to safety reasons. Go figure! I don't think safety would be an issue with proper rules.

As far as the other reasons, I think the end product will stand on it's own. I don't really think a propane unit can be competitive in a KCBS event but if people want to give it a shot, I say bring it on. I cook in NCPC events with gas (and win my fair share) but would never try that in a KCBS event. And when I want some really good Q, I fire up my smoker.

I cooked A NCPC event in Monroe NC a couple of years ago. 17 teams, me and 1 other guy using wood. He came in DAL and I came in next to DAL...lol. Then the Monroe comp went to a KCBS type format but allowed both wood and gas. My fishishes improved greatly:-D

I've cooked several SCBA events and non sanctioned events that allow both (or any) type of fuels and the wood cookers seem to do the best. The NCPC event judging criteria is stacked against the offset cookers but that's their deal. I say let 'em all in!

[Podge]

KCBS should allow crock pots and ovens for all I care.

[Sledneck]

is having wood as the primary heat source in KCBS comp.'s kind of some of the integrity of the comp.? is controlling your cooker and feeding it the right amount of fuel some of the skill in BBQ? or is it strictly, 100% about the rubs, sauces, and cooking methods?
i was always under the impression that this was a part of the art of BBQ... building, controlling, and maintaining your fire....maybe i was wrong
So a pellet pooper builds the fire by loadin the hopper and pressing the on button, then controls it by setting the temp, then maintains it by making sure th electricity stays on and the hopper full? Hmmm mm

[Smokin' Hicks]

i don't see the art or skill so much in making sure the power stays on or making sure your hopper is full of pellets....I've just seen a lot of articles, books, websites on BBQ, have whole sections and put huge emphasis on how to construct and maintain your fire, learning your equipment and how it works....and that's kind of the first hill we climbed when we started out, the building and controlling of our fire. With that being siad if the fire buliding and maintaining end of it is not to be considered as a skill in the comp. world of BBQ cooking then that is fine. I was just stating that i always thought the weight of emphasis and importance of how to build and maintain a solid fire and keeping that good smoke rolling was a large part of comp. BBQ cooking. Pellet poopers just seem to detract from that but, that is a different discussion for a different thread.

[Greyeagle]

If they allow braised chicken in a muffin pan..why not? I think not much in competition is "traditional" anyhow. If someone cooking with gas beats you maybe you need to rethink your methods. KC

[Alexa RnQ]

Damn. Having been entirely too near explosions and fires under the current rules, I can't think of anything less enticing than being near some party boys turned loose with propane.

Should the propane segment be included, I hope that KCBS is prepared to institute proper safety rulings, and provide manpower for inspections, both initial and during the contest, and make them stick.

I'm a wood-and-charcoal girl at heart. I'd be a little sad if preserving the art became less important than following potential dollars.

[Sledneck]

Sauce contest anyhow, does it matter what fuel is used ?:evil:

[Smokin' Hicks]

but from what it seems i am to understand about the KCBS and its history is that there is no art to preserve like you are stating...the art like i thought and you thought it was has nothing to do with wood, charcoal, or any other heating means its all about the food....i think

[JD McGee]

It really doesn't matter much to me...it's just another tool in the shed...ya still gotta know how to use it! :cool:

[smokeyw]

I agree. The end product will tell the tale :thumb:

It really doesn't matter much to me...it's just another tool in the shed...ya still gotta know how to use it! :cool:

[JD McGee]

I agree. The end product will tell the tale :thumb:

Always has...always will...:cool:

[TooSaucedToPork]

This sport used to be about traditions. I'm a traditionalist. Out of respect, you didn't put your contest, no matter how big, on the same weekend as another contest in your area. You cooked with wood or charcoal only. You had people that actually cooked and judged in contests running the show, not polititians.

Real BBQ is not made with gas or electric. People can argue this fact up and down but my mind will never be changed. I like that KCBS and MBN have stuck with tradition and kept only wood and charcoal burners.

This sport used to be about skill, it is now about toys. I cook on an offset stickburner without a guru. Yes that is my choice, but that in my opinion is how you cook BBQ.

When a guy comes in with a smoker with an electric thermostat, feeder hoppers, humidifiers, running on propane that can maintain a perfect 217.74 degree temperature for 13 hours...are you honestly going to claim its "the cook not the cooker" You have taken the skill out of the sport and reduced an American Tradition to a joke. We have rules for a reason, and if they want to open this up for anybody with a gas grill then the motivation is not to drum up interest...its money. They see $$$ signs, more people, more cash, more power. If they keep going in this direction KCBS will self distruct.

But what the heck do I know, I've only been doing this 19 years.

[Rich Parker]

I say we allow propane and electric because in the end its all about who has the best bbq not how you made it.

[BBQchef33]

This sport used to be about traditions. I'm a traditionalist. Out of respect, you didn't put your contest, no matter how big, on the same weekend as another contest in your area. You cooked with wood or charcoal only. You had people that actually cooked and judged in contests running the show, not polititians.

Real BBQ is not made with gas or electric. People can argue this fact up and down but my mind will never be changed. I like that KCBS and MBN have stuck with tradition and kept only wood and charcoal burners.

This sport used to be about skill, it is now about toys. I cook on an offset stickburner without a guru. Yes that is my choice, but that in my opinion is how you cook BBQ.

When a guy comes in with a smoker with an electric thermostat, feeder hoppers, humidifiers, running on propane that can maintain a perfect 217.74 degree temperature for 13 hours...are you honestly going to claim its "the cook not the cooker" You have taken the skill out of the sport and reduced an American Tradition to a joke. We have rules for a reason, and if they want to open this up for anybody with a gas grill then the motivation is not to drum up interest...its money. They see $$$ signs, more people, more cash, more power. If they keep going in this direction KCBS will self distruct.

But what the heck do I know, I've only been doing this 19 years.

you get the cookie! Right on! I'll go one step further and say once you introduce anything with a thermostat, then you have removed 1/3 of the equation. BBQ is about meat, seasonings and heat. Using the thermostats is along the same lines as buying preseasoned meats. It takes something out of the equation that should be controled by the competitor. Heres and interesting read from 2005. http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=145506&highlight=equation#post145506


however, its allowed. I switched to an FE years ago.... figured since so many are already doing it, and it wont change, i may as well get some sleep too.. But I will be right there if they are ever removed and my Klose will be rolled into the trailer.

so, to stayon topic of this questions.. i dont care what anyone cooks on.. if they are allowing pellet cookers, theres no reason to disallow propane. its not the fuel source... Personally, I would prefer to see NO THERMOSTATS.




heres an interesting read.

[MilitantSquatter]

you get the cookie! Right on! I'll go one step further and say once you introduce anything with a thermostat, then you have removed 1/3 of the equation. BBQ is about meat, seasonings and heat. Using the thermostats is along the same lines as buying preseasoned meats. It takes something out of the equation that should be controled by the competitor. Heres and interesting read from 2005. http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=145506&highlight=equation#post145506


however, its allowed. I switched to an FE years ago.... figured since so many are already doing it, and it wont change, i may as well get some sleep too.. But I will be right there if they are ever removed and my Klose will be rolled into the trailer.

so, to stayon topic of this questions.. i dont care what anyone cooks on.. if they are allowing pellet cookers, theres no reason to disallow propane. its not the fuel source... Personally, I would prefer to see NO THERMOSTATS.




heres an interesting read.



As an ambassador of BBQ with the title of Grand Poobah, I think you should go back to stick burning and spread the message of what you'd prefer to see, rather than be a contributor to further public acceptance of these gizmos by the public and other new competitors just for the sake of some sleep and a plastic trophy...


:wink:

[Smoke'n Ice]

I use a pellet cooker and really don't have any issue with propane cookers. Just understand that I don't want to be set up next to one. Have seen several explosions with resultant paramedics and hospital visit caused by somewhat inebriated individuals using their propane to start the stick burner. There appears to also be an explosion of some sort that blows the doors and fire box open. The last one was up in OK last year. Made a hell of a racket.

[Sledneck]

As an ambassador of BBQ with the title of Grand Poobah, I think you should go back to stick burning and spread the message of what you'd prefer to see, rather than be a contributor to further public acceptance of these gizmos by the public and other new competitors just for the sake of some sleep and a plastic trophy...


:wink:

He's gonna whine that it's to heavy for his trailer blah blah blah. Truth be told, he doesn't have the skill any more to use one At a comp.

[BBQchef33]

He's gonna whine that it's to heavy for his trailer blah blah blah. Truth be told, he doesn't have the skill any more to use one At a comp.

yawn. :sleep:

[slowerlowerbbq]

I say bring it on. With all due respect to the purists out there, who's to say good BBQ can't be cooked on a propane-powered cooker?

With that said, if KCBS did allow propane, I wonder how many would actually use it? I personally GRILL on propane a lot at home (that's because I'm lazy and pressed for time cooking dinner after work), but would never use propane to cook BBQ.

As for temperature control devices, I have found there is still a serious learning curve to getting my Stoker to maintain temperatures on my WSM through a 12 hour cook. I use it more for insurance and peace of mind at night so I can get a few hours of sleep, after that I still have to maintain the fire. Or maybe it's just me :redface:

[JimmyDAL]

Let the boiling begin:-P

[Coz]

I dont care if they do or not but I have been at 2 comps since we have been competing where people have had tanks blow up and hope that they make some safety rules that are enforcable.

[txschutte]

I dont care if they do or not but I have been at 2 comps since we have been competing where people have had tanks blow up and hope that they make some safety rules that are enforcable.

Absolutely. Make those with the propane setups have their systems "sniffed" for leaks and such. Make sure their tanks are inspected and certified by a licensed inspector at least once a year.

What kind of liability would KCBS hold if a tank exploded in the middle of the main row on Friday night at the AR? I see huge consequences to the "what ifs".

[BBQchef33]

I say bring it on. With all due respect to the purists out there, who's to say good BBQ can't be cooked on a propane-powered cooker?

With that said, if KCBS did allow propane, I wonder how many would actually use it? I personally GRILL on propane a lot at home (that's because I'm lazy and pressed for time cooking dinner after work), but would never use propane to cook BBQ.

As for temperature control devices, I have found there is still a serious learning curve to getting my Stoker to maintain temperatures on my WSM through a 12 hour cook. I use it more for insurance and peace of mind at night so I can get a few hours of sleep, after that I still have to maintain the fire. Or maybe it's just me :redface:

My spicewine would get 3-4 hours burns unattended.. an occasional minor adjustment of the exhaust.

Then i installed a stoker and spent the next 12-14 hours diddling with it trying to lock temps in.. then i would pull off the stoker and run unattended with the butterflies closed and only the hole left from the stoker for air intake to get back to 1 remainaing unattended 4 hour burns...

simple is better. :thumb:

[Dr_KY]

As long as I'm cooking Q then I say and always have bring it on just as long as everything is certafied and in a separate category.

I'm on Electric , propane, ceramic, blah blah blah and if this takes off there are going to be some websites changing from anti gassers quick and fast .. as band wagoners do. :spy: lol

[Red Valley BBQ]

If the reasoning behind this is to "broaden the interest and participation in KCBS" then I have to believe this debate is financially motivated. Not that there is anything wrong with an organization trying to increase income and membership. I would think there was something wrong with that organization if they didn't.

But one does not have to compete in KCBS sanctioned events to be a member. Nor does one have to be a member of KCBS to cook in a sanctioned event (Sam's Club contests excluded). So there is no advantage for the KCBS to allow propane cookers in competition. The only way this is financially advantageous to the KCBS is to require membership to be eligible to cook in sanctioned events. I think it's pointless for the KCBS to change it's competition rules that have been in place for 25+ years, especially if it does not financially benefit them. With 5200+ teams competing in 2010, it would seem to me that the interest is already there under the current rules.

Up until about 5 years ago, I used my propane grill on a weekly basis. Since I started competing and cooking with charcoal and wood in 2008, my gasser has sat dormant on my deck. If a lifelong gasser can convert to wood and charcoal because of my interest to enter barbecue competitions, others can do it to.

If it comes down to a membership vote, I'm voting NO PROPANE.

[Podge]

"Traditional" BBQ.. where does it really start?.. It sure as heck didn't start with a metal stick burner. If you want to go old school traditional, then go out and hunt an animal, skin it, gut it, and cook it over an open flame.

Where do you really draw the line?

Technology is a great thing. Besides, if it were all that easy with gurus, thermometers, etc, these BBQ classes would produce equally great competitors. Also, the LP Que a few years ago, all on propane cookers, still proved it was the cook, not the cooker, that won.

[MilitantSquatter]

If the reasoning behind this is to "broaden the interest and participation in KCBS" then I have to believe this debate is financially motivated. Not that there is anything wrong with an organization trying to increase income and membership. I would think there was something wrong with that organization if they didn't.

But one does not have to compete in KCBS sanctioned events to be a member. Nor does one have to be a member of KCBS to cook in a sanctioned event (Sam's Club contests excluded). So there is no advantage for the KCBS to allow propane cookers in competition. The only way this is financially advantageous to the KCBS is to require membership to be eligible to cook in sanctioned events. I think it's pointless for the KCBS to change it's competition rules that have been in place for 25+ years, especially if it does not financially benefit them. With 5200+ teams competing in 2010, it would seem to me that the interest is already there under the current rules.

Up until about 5 years ago, I used my propane grill on a weekly basis. Since I started competing and cooking with charcoal and wood in 2008, my gasser has sat dormant on my deck. If a lifelong gasser can convert to wood and charcoal because of my interest to enter barbecue competitions, others can do it to.

If it comes down to a membership vote, I'm voting NO PROPANE.


I understand your point but if you look more broadly there are many potential incremental revenue increases that KCBS would see longer term if this were to be allowed. By default, more people competing and in attendance, equals more sponsorship opportunities...

While 5,200 sounds like a lot, it's also very small in a much bigger picture.

[The_Kapn]

Can someone explain to me what is so difficult about maintaining a temp with a stick burner?
Presented by some as a necessary skill.

I did it for a long time and if I can do it, anyone can. :-D
Not rocket science.

TIM

[Red Valley BBQ]

I understand your point but if you look more broadly there are many potential incremental revenue increases if this were to be allowed. By default, more people competing and in attendance, equals more sponsorship opportunities...

How would having more teams compete have any potential to increase revenues for the KCBS? Outside of requiring teams to become members. I'm trying to see your point of view, but until it's explained to me better, I just don't see it.

If the KCBS wants to increase revenues, they should be focusing on finding reasons to get the person that likes to barbecue in his backyard to become a member. As of right now, I don't see any reason for a person to become a member of KCBS other than if they want to be a judge. It would seem to me that the number of backyard cooks that have no interest in competing would far out number the number of teams that would potentially compete if they could use propane. Just about everyone has a grill or smoker of some sort in thier backyard.

[MilitantSquatter]

How would having more teams compete have any potential to increase revenues for the KCBS? Outside of requiring teams to become members. I'm trying to see your point of view, but until it's explained to me better, I just don't see it.


If the KCBS wants to increase revenues, they should be focusing on finding reasons to get the person that likes to barbecue in his backyard to become a member. As of right now, I don't see any reason for a person to become a member of KCBS other than if they want to be a judge. It would seem to me that the number of backyard cooks that have no interest in competing would far out number the number of teams that would potentially compete if they could use propane. Just about everyone has a grill or smoker of some sort in thier backyard.

Increased sponsorships...

Great American BBQ Tour is an example

http://www.kcbs.us/tour.php

or the Sam's Club contests

http://www.kcbs.us/sams-club-series.php

Just a few years ago, KCBS had none of this.. now while it's still small but growing as more companies see the value of spending their advertising $ on a common base of end users or potential new target demographic.. It doesn't just need to be BBQ products.. but adjacent products used by BBQ enthusiasts.

The more end users (members, at contest etc.. the more $$)

[txschutte]

Can someone explain to me what is so difficult about maintaining a temp with a stick burner?
Presented by some as a necessary skill.

I did it for a long time and if I can do it, anyone can. :-D
Not rocket science.

TIM

Tim has a great point. Propane does not mean automatic. Neither does electric. How many comps have we been to that the electric was unreliable or even non-existent?

I would accept the challenge of more competitors in the sport. More teams equals more money. More money means the bigger challenge. I'll put my drums and WSMs against the finest of propane burners any day.

[TooSaucedToPork]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

[TooSaucedToPork]

Tim has a great point. Propane does not mean automatic. Neither does electric. How many comps have we been to that the electric was unreliable or even non-existent?

I would accept the challenge of more competitors in the sport. More teams equals more money. More money means the bigger challenge. I'll put my drums and WSMs against the finest of propane burners any day.

Then all those electric teams are going to ask for a vote on generators...because its not fair that "my power source can be unreliable or non-existent at a contest", and then you can get no sleep b/c the guys next to you are running a gennie all night.

[txschutte]

Then all those electric teams are going to ask for a vote on generators...because its not fair that "my power source can be unreliable or non-existent at a contest", and then you can get no sleep b/c the guys next to you are running a gennie all night.

Strict enforcement of quiet times should be enforced, too. A law already on the books.

[BBQ Bandit]

Would think the consequences may outweigh their options.

Fuel division? Betty Crocker division? A boil-free zone?
Place the propane in the (unsanctioned) backyard division... in a separate area?

If it does come to be... who will certify the safety inspections?
Might as well unbolt the home gas range and propane stove and bring that too.

[Alexa RnQ]

If it does come to be... who will certify the safety inspections?
And who will put their nuts on the line for liability? Because that first lawsuit will undoubtedly name the organizer, the owner of the venue, KCBS... there'll be splatter.
It's never a problem until the first "incident".

[TooSaucedToPork]

Place the propane in the (unsanctioned) backyard division... in a separate area?.

That actually is a great idea. It would allow you to have backyard teams test the competition waters with their existing equipment. They then could determine if this sport is right for them and if they want to blow the money for the allowed equipment.

This drums up interest in the sport, without changing the entire rule set.

It gets my vote

[Red Valley BBQ]

Increased sponsorships...

Great American BBQ Tour is an example

http://www.kcbs.us/tour.php

or the Sam's Club contests

http://www.kcbs.us/sams-club-series.php

Just a few years ago, KCBS had none of this.. now while it's still small but growing as more companies see the value of spending their advertising $ on a common base of end users or potential new target demographic.. It doesn't just need to be BBQ products.. but adjacent products used by BBQ enthusiasts.

The more end users (members, at contest etc.. the more $$)

Thanks, I see where you are coming from now. :thumb:

I think the KCBS can still achieve this without allowing the use of propane.

Since 2008, the KCBS has seen a yearly increase in the number of teams competing in sanctioned events without changing the rules and allowing propane:

2008 - 4344 teams
2009 - 4360 teams
2010 - 5204 teams

This seems to be the product of better marketing by the KCBS and rising public awareness due to shows like TLC's BBQ Pitmasters. By focusing on the almost infinite potential membership base that is the everyday homeowner, which I think everyone will agree is far greater in numbers than potential "propane teams," sponsors can get thier products and/or services out to more customers.

Having taken part in the 2011 Sam's Club Championships, it's my opinion that Sam's benefited more from John Q Public at these events than they did from the teams themselves. Sam's was able to reach out to hundreds of potential members from the public. There were only 30 teams at each location (Bentonville being the exception) which I would guess that most of those teams already had one or more members belonging to Sam's. It's my guess that for thier advertising dollar, Sam's saw more return on investment from the public than they did from the teams at each event.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against cooking with propane. To each their own, hell, I used to use it myself. But I don't think changing rules that have been in place for 25 years is the right way for the KCBS to attract potential sponsors. It would seem to me that since the KCBS is a non-profit organization, changing the rules to help another company(s) make money would not be a good idea.

[The_Kapn]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

That actually is a great idea. It would allow you to have backyard teams test the competition waters with their existing equipment. They then could determine if this sport is right for them and if they want to blow the money for the allowed equipment.

This drums up interest in the sport, without changing the entire rule set.

It gets my vote

I am totally confused now.
You raise safety issues and go into great detail about them.
Then. it is OK as long as it is in the BackYard area.

Help me understand--OK?

TIM

[BBQ Bandit]

Reminds me of art imitating life... or visa versa

Hank of the hill.... "King of the Charcoal"
King of the Charcoal - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2NXIS6iJM)

[Fat Freddy]

Here are my safety concerns with propane. We all burn ourselves now and again with charcoal and wood, but we don't take people with us.

We have all seen an out of control grease fire in a pit. I think we also have all seen the token cooking crew that was too inebriated to put it out. Or they are the "B" team and are there to, and I quote - "just watch the temp". Now add in a 20 lb hand grenade of a propane tank, and you have your first explosion related death at a BBQ competition.

Now imagine the 5 beer in, 22 year old overnight grill watcher at 3:17am as they move a pressurized propane tank nearer to the pit in order to stretch out in front of the nice warm smoker. Somehow they have caused the fire to blink out and have now created a ticking bomb. At that time there actually is security watching to make sure this is not happening. The guard comes over and asks him to move the tank away from the smoker, crisis averted... He lays back down lights a cigarette and looks over at the temp...its plummeting, he checks everything he can, freaks out and opens the door to the smoker. Boom. Lets not forget he is in a spot that is 20x20 with 5 teams around him. 1 death and 4 injuries, along with the contest being closed down for an investigation...

I know it is an overexagerated scenario, but it actually could happen.

That's what scares me about rookie teams and propane.

On another topic:

The only answer that I see to this gas vs. electric debate that will keep people happy and not cause anger and fights amongst the membership will be to divide contests into divisions.

You have:
a stock division (wood and charcoal only, no technology) for the purists
a modified division (wood, pellet, charcoal, gas, electric, with gurus and other gadgets)

but this will never happen.

I know I have to accept change, and eventually electric and gas will be allowed, but I'm going down fightin'

Originally I didnt really care if someone used wood,charcoal,pellets,gas,crock pot or microwave My goal is to make the best tasting Q.

However after reading your argument what you say makes alot of sense that I didnt think about in dangers of gas. I guess i sure wouldnt want to be in the space next to that person with a gas cooker.

[kihrer]

There may be a million plus gassers out there but even if KCBS did open it up to them, how many are anything more than occasional backyard grillers? Does it really grow the sport or KCBS membership or does it just offer those who are already competing a new option? I personally hope it doesn't happen. But, then again, to me managing the fire is a big reason I enjoy cooking. Even if KCBS makes the change, I will not.

[Sledneck]

I would love to bring my gas grill to a contest but it scares me . The last time I moved it I ruptured my Achilles tendon:icon_blush:

[Smokin' Hicks]

This sport used to be about traditions. I'm a traditionalist. Out of respect, you didn't put your contest, no matter how big, on the same weekend as another contest in your area. You cooked with wood or charcoal only. You had people that actually cooked and judged in contests running the show, not polititians.

Real BBQ is not made with gas or electric. People can argue this fact up and down but my mind will never be changed. I like that KCBS and MBN have stuck with tradition and kept only wood and charcoal burners.

This sport used to be about skill, it is now about toys. I cook on an offset stickburner without a guru. Yes that is my choice, but that in my opinion is how you cook BBQ.

When a guy comes in with a smoker with an electric thermostat, feeder hoppers, humidifiers, running on propane that can maintain a perfect 217.74 degree temperature for 13 hours...are you honestly going to claim its "the cook not the cooker" You have taken the skill out of the sport and reduced an American Tradition to a joke. We have rules for a reason, and if they want to open this up for anybody with a gas grill then the motivation is not to drum up interest...its money. They see $$$ signs, more people, more cash, more power. If they keep going in this direction KCBS will self distruct.

But what the heck do I know, I've only been doing this 19 years.


PREACH THE TRUTH BROTHER.....there is no way i could of said it better if i tried

[carlyle]

Great conversation - just what I was hoping for..

New board members, you listening?

In the rules meeting one of the first things brought up was safety. The fire police would have to inspect - like they do at the Royal.

That still does not cover the middle of the night fatigue and alcohol induced mistakes.

I appreciate everyone's comments.

[Rub]

I'm all for a wide open contest including all heat sources. It already happens at the Best of the Best Invitational in GA. Great contest. I can see where basic safety standards would need to be in place though.

[TooSaucedToPork]

I am totally confused now.
You raise safety issues and go into great detail about them.
Then. it is OK as long as it is in the BackYard area.

Help me understand--OK?

TIM


Its a compromise.

I do not like gas, I fear it actually, since I have had a cooker explode next to me...
I was lucky and it just flashed, not frying anything but my hair.

But if you are going to have gas at a competition, you put it in 1 small area (backyard) that can be closely monitored.
As most of the backyard contests are not overnight cooks (ribs and chicken, not brisket and pork) you don't have to worry about long cook times.
It allows the use of people's existing equipment at their home (most likely a propane grill) that it not as dangerous as a larger rig.
You then add security that is constantly patroling for safety, and you have a relatively safe, controlled envoirnment.

This was a debate on allowing electric and gas into KCBS to increase public interest. This was a compromise I could live with as it does not allow gas and electric into the regular KCBS catagories, but does allow these methods into a backyard division that is completely seperate. This could increase public interest without changing the existing rule set.

[Tarheel]

There is already a group in NC that cook NC Pork Council events for whole hog that cook with gas mainly. There cookers are inspected before each contest for safety, condition, and cleanliness. Allowing in gas will add another need as far as safety goes but the added competitors will be good for the sport. Let'em in!

[dmprantz]

Here's my opinion on the matter, taking into question what the opinion of a member matters on a BBS thread, though some new BOD members may read this...:)

The competitor in me says that as long as some are allowed to use pellet poopers and draft controlled charcoal baskets, why shouldn't propane or electric be allowed? Electric would have to worry about current, and would probably have to bring an expensive, quiet generator or pay for the 50A service like RVs, but I don't see either one offering any advantage that pellets and draft control don't already provide. They might even have some disadvantage based on the chemistry of how propane combusts. Regardless, I'd say let them in.

Then the safety nut, father of two listens to what others have said, I have some concerns for myself and others about the use of propane. I agree with what some others have said that propane should only be used safely, and some of the scenarios and possibilities make me wonder....

And then I realize that there are thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of propane cooking devices sold each year in this country. Some of them are grills, some are in-door ovens, some are out-door "BBQ machines," and many more. If it was really as possible to blow one's self up with a propane cooking device, with all the ones that exist out there, I'm sure it would be a lot more prevalent than it is. Considering Ole Hickory and Southern Pride Propane cookers used at fund-raisers and vending events, NCPC competitions, and every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a propane grill or smoker who uses one in the back yard, there just isn't some epidemic of explosions as some would have me believe. I'm not sure that I think explosions are imminent as soon as propane is allowed. In fact, propane is already used at many competitions in the way of RV fridges, turkey fryers, water heaters, weed burners....where are the explosions?

All this is to say I'm not saying propane should be allowed without any restrictions: I could see the value in requiring a thermocouple on all propane devices to prevent gas flooding. I could see banning rubber and requiring metal for all LPG tubing. I could even see the requirement of some inspection and certification program. Essentially, if a set of requirements are good enough for an in-door propane oven or a CTO, it should be good enough for a BBQ competition, but that's me. Bring it, and let's be safe about it.

Thanks,

dmp

[TooSaucedToPork]

And then I realize that there are thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of propane cooking devices sold each year in this country. Some of them are grills, some are in-door ovens, some are out-door "BBQ machines," and many more. If it was really as possible to blow one's self up with a propane cooking device, with all the ones that exist out there, I'm sure it would be a lot more prevalent than it is.


Last year, nearly 18,000 people were sent to U.S. emergency rooms because of grilling-related accidents, according to estimates from the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/100701-bbqfire-vlrg-10a.grid-4x2.jpg

Its one thing to use a weed burner for 5 minutes, a fryer for an hour, or grilling a steak for 20 minutes. Those Ole Hickorys are professional builds, used by professional cooks. The danger does not come from those, the danger comes from home builds and misuse of propane by people who are tired, drinking, and not properly trained. 18,000 people can attest to that last year...

[dmprantz]

All due respect Neil, but there are three kinds of untruths in the world: lies, damn lies, and statistics. 18,000 ER visits does not equate to any exploded LP tanks. That picture you posted...I'm pretty sure it's a training excercise. Regardless, I never said that it was impossible, just not as prevelant as was proclaimed....and don't forget, I did say that safety precautions should be put to use. I doubt every one who uses a gas oven is sober and well rested. Just sayin....

dmp

[daveinwestmont]

What we have are two points that are being discussed. One is safety by allowing a new heat source and the other is providing a competitive advantage via a thermostatically controlled heat source. Here is my nickel’s worth of opinion.

Safety - no matter what heat source is used safety must be paramount at any event that gathers a population in a confined space. I've seen it first hand. An offset unit fired by lump and a close bag lump ignite and then ignite a can of butane. The off duty police officer patrolling the grounds had the butane can land at his feet roughly 40 yards away... It really doesn't matter what you use if you do not pay attention someone can get hurt.

Competitive nature - A propane grill is heat source controlled by a thermostatically controlled device or valve. Seems similar to a pellet pooper -KCBS legal, or a wood/charcoal fire controlled by a draft induction system (Guru, Stoker, IQUE 110) - again all legal. Look at many of the new smokers today they are fully insulated and air tight to control oxygen entering the fire box causing a non controlled burn. At the end of the day it's about the appearance, taste and tenderness ranking from a totally subjective group of judges. These devices just take the fire management out of human hands so we can focus on flavoring, and tenderness. If we didn't have these tools available to us we would have less teams and interest in the sport of competitive BBQ. I'm sure there are many that enjoy this as a hobby and others as a supplemental income source, (good luck with that).

I say let them in if they pass saftey testing and see if the techniques change where you have a hybrid approach to cooking. Those already using the insulated fire boxes and cookers with draft induction controlled fire are already enjoying the benefits of the available technology.

[JD McGee]

So...how many of you start your pits with weed burners...I'm not hearing anyone scream about safety inspections for what they're hooked up to...give me a break...:tsk: Stupid is as stupid does...there is no safety inspection for stupid...:cool:

[TooSaucedToPork]

All due respect Neil, but there are three kinds of untruths in the world: lies, damn lies, and statistics. 18,000 ER visits does not equate to any exploded LP tanks. That picture you posted...I'm pretty sure it's a training excercise. Regardless, I never said that it was impossible, just not as prevelant as was proclaimed....and don't forget, I did say that safety precautions should be put to use. I doubt every one who uses a gas oven is sober and well rested. Just sayin....

dmp

I miss our debates Rance...:becky:

The National Fire Protection Association claims that “more than 6,100 accidental fires and explosions occur [each year] due to the improper use of grills, resulting in 20,000 emergency room visits and $29.1 million of estimated damage.”
Furthermore, approximately 20 deaths each year are attributed to propane fires and explosions associated with gas grills.
There are two reasons why there are so many injuries and deaths caused by propane gas grills: “venting” and “odor fade.”
First, the mechanics of a common household propane tank need to be understood. When propane tanks are exposed to excessive heat, the gas itself expands. If there is not enough room in the tank to accommodate the expanded gas, a pressure release valve will open in order to allow propane gas to be emitted from the tank. This is called “venting.” It typically occurs when the internal tank pressure exceeds 375 PSI and prevents the tank from exploding.
When venting occurs, a pungent odor should be present. Propane is an odorless gas; the “rotten eggs” smell most people associate with propane is actually provided by ethyl mercaptan, an additive which is mixed with propane gas to alert users of a leak. The problem arises when gas is released from the tank during venting, but there is no odor. This is known as “odor fade.”
Once the ethyl mercaptan becomes undetectable, propane leaks can place users in grave danger. There have been several cases against propane gas grill manufacturers where consumers have been injured or killed while transporting propane tanks, or when operating gas grills in areas that were not properly ventilated, because of leaks they did not detect.
Problems with odor fade have plagued the propane industry for decades, because the odor of ethyl mercaptan dissipates over time. The length of time varies, depending on such factors as the age and condition of the tank, but studies have shown that ethyl mercaptan can significantly dissipate within five to seven days after a propane tank has been filled and may become undetectable within just three weeks.

BLEVE - Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion

The term BLEVE is well known among firefighters and hazardous materials response teams and does not solely refer to propane tanks. A BLEVE occurs when the pressure in the tank exceeds that at which the safety relief valve can safely vent the excess pressure into the outside atmosphere. Relief valves are designed to vent tank pressure at a certain flow rate to the outside atmosphere once the pressure inside the propane tank reaches a certain level and will close once the pressure in the tank falls below that level.
Let's look at a simple example involving something we're all familiar with, a plastic 3 liter soft drink bottle. The soft drink bottle has a 1/4" hole drilled in its side (about the same diameter as the cord on your mouse). This hole functions as the safety relief valve. If you were to blow air into the bottle through the top after unscrewing the cap, the excess pressure in the bottle would be relieved through the opening in the bottle's side causing no damage to the bottle. Now, suppose you attached an air hose that screwed onto the bottle top forming a tight seal and the air hose was supplied by a large air compressor. Turning the air compressor on starts the flow of air into the bottle which in turn creates more pressure than the small hole (relief valve) in the side of the bottle can keep up with. The plastic bottle starts to expand and eventually ruptures. The reason the bottle ruptures is that the amount of increasing pressure inside the bottle is far greater and exceeds that at which the small hole allows to escape. The pressure in the bottle is increasing faster than it can escape through the "relief valve".
Propane BLEVE
A propane tank BLEVE will occur when the container is subject to extreme heat, such as in a fire. While the tank is being heated, the liquid propane inside is being heated causing it to expand. The safety relief valve will open allowing pressure to vent to the outside atmosphere. If the pressure inside the tank grows to a level exceeding that at which the safety relief valve can expel it from the tank, the propane tank may rupture. If flames or a source of ignition is present, the propane will ignite resulting in an explosion. It's important to know that a BLEVE will occur only if the conditions are right, such as being subject to continuous flame impingement over a period of time. The possibility of a propane tank explosion (BLEVE) is extremely remote but not unheard of.


So a safety valve vents a heated tank next to a smoker into the outside air...air with the open flames of BBQ Pits all around??? Possible gas with no odor due to "odor fade" sure its a long shot I'm talking about

but will charcoal and wood explode?

I count 6 people in this conversation that have seen a propane accident...
Thats about 15% of us in this thread. Now apply that to 5200 teams and hundreds of contests...

Just my 2 cents

[kurtsara]

I dont care if they do or not but I have been at 2 comps since we have been competing where people have had tanks blow up and hope that they make some safety rules that are enforcable.

What size tanks?

20 years on the fire dept. I saw a few tanks blow up and the fireball is huge.

[TooSaucedToPork]

So...how many of you start your pits with weed burners...I'm not hearing anyone scream about safety inspections for what they're hooked up to...give me a break...:tsk: Stupid is as stupid does...there is no safety inspection for stupid...:cool:

I use a weed burner...for 2 minutes to start my fire. It then goes into a plastic milk crate on the other side of my camp away from the fire. Unlike a smoker that will have that tank no more than a few feet away. In MBN and at Memphis in May there is a safety inspection of propane tanks. Where they are stored and what they are stored in...and you can't cook with propane, only wood and charcoal.

We are talking about having a solid 12+ hours of continuous propane usage...that is why drunk stupid guy at 4am shouldn't have propane next to me and my gear:becky:

[dmprantz]

Just a few more things, and then I think I'll have said my peace: As I've said twice before, I think approprate safety measures should be taken such as thermocouples, melt resistant tubing, and appropriate placement of fuel sources. I think this should be applied to all LPG used on site at a comp, not just cooker fuel sources, so it could make things safer. Next, when you take into account appropariate fuel sources and the fact that BBQ competitions happen outside, the chances of a lot of what you have to say happening drop. Outside has space for the "heavy" propane to spread out on the ground, and if you keep your fuel source far enough away from fire...well, I don't know what the odds become, but it's a lot lower than inside.

dmp

EDIT: I forgot to say this: you may not agree with me on either the competition or the safety aspect. That's fine. This is just my opinion. Love or leave it, but please respect it.

[carlyle]

Lots of good comments on both sides.

And everyone is still civil with each other. That's what I love about the Brethren site.
Tolerance and respect. Both seem to be in short supply today. Bravo for the Brethren!

I looked around the room in the rules meeting, and saw less than 50 members.
Checking this thread that started this morning - 67 have commented, 1200 have looked
and 35 are looking at the thread as I type this. That is the kind of exposure and participation that I was hoping for when I started this thread. Thank you Brethren
and you hidden guests that are lurking.

We are not done here are we???

[kenthanson]

At several local PNWBA events they have a amateur contest that runs the first day. The contestants can use whatever fuel source they wish and they get judged by certified judges the same way the pro contest is judged. It's on the first day of the contest and they get around 4 hours to cook. The winner gets a traeger and are encouraged to come out and cook with the pros.

[big brother smoke]

I am opposed for safety reasons only. If allowed, all cookers using LP should have an automatic shutoff installed.

I can see it now, someone leaving the gas assist on a stickburner to get a few winks. Fire goes out, propane is on with no flame with the door to cooker closed and boom!! Somebody get pieces of the cooker door in their site or even worse their body :mad:

[Just Smokin' Around]

If they allow gas, it should only be allowed on properly manufactured, certified equipment to ensure proper safety. No homemade pits with jury rigged set-ups. Then, when some smart pit makers perfect a good gas smoker that is priced right for competitors, many of the people hear may be cooking on gas in a few years. Pellet cookers didn't take off overnight, but, are very common now.

[MilitantSquatter]

I am opposed for safety reasons only. If allowed, all cookers using LP should have an automatic shutoff installed.

I can see it now, someone leaving the gas assist on a stickburner to get a few winks. Fire goes out, propane is on with no flame with the door to cooker closed and boom!! Somebody get pieces of the cooker door in their site or even worse their body :mad:


Your posted reminded me of that horrible accident that happened to River City Smokehouse a few years ago with the gas assist on his Bates pit... I think the flame went out on the log lighter and gas got trapped and after airing out and re-lighting it exploded and the pit doors blew off and put him in the hospital with shattered knee.

Scary stuff...

[TooSaucedToPork]

At several local PNWBA events they have a amateur contest that runs the first day. The contestants can use whatever fuel source they wish and they get judged by certified judges the same way the pro contest is judged. It's on the first day of the contest and they get around 4 hours to cook. The winner gets a traeger and are encouraged to come out and cook with the pros.

This is a great way to get more "backyarders" involved. 99% of people will use a store bought grill with safety features. It also is relatively safe (a 4 hour cook time) and gives the winner a way to join the "big boys" on an approved fuel source.

If they don't already have it, add a gas bottle inspection and safety officers to make sure everyone is safe and, in my opinion, you have a winner for KCBS.

Kudos to the PNWBA.

[big brother smoke]

Your posted reminded me of that horrible accident that happened to River City Smokehouse a few years ago with the gas assist on his Bates pit... I think the flame went out on the log lighter and gas got trapped and after airing out and re-lighting it exploded and the pit doors blew off and put him in the hospital with shattered knee.

Scary stuff...

Exactly and he was not drinking. It happened to me, warming up the pit prior to putting meat in the pit, soooo....

I went in the house for a few minutes and came out, saw what was going on, aired it, so I thought and boom, farking hair on the arms was gone :redface:

Good thing the door was open!:shock:

[BBQ Bandit]

Before I was smoking meats... was surprised by an accident my Mom had nearly 20 years ago. Her patio sized gasser collected some spider webs during inactivity. She (nor myself) knew about it...

The spark ignitor did more than hit the burners... ignited the gas pockets too.

Grill goes boom.


Have heard more than one situation where (gas assist) smokers go boom.
Personally, won't go there.

[BritToby]

Its an interesting read, not to sure if I would like people to bring home made contraptions to a competition for obvious reasons, but at the same time we have gas at pretty much every competition through our grilling circuit that runs alongside our PitMasters series.

There were a lot of people against the use of gas within the circuit but it is a crowd pleaser especially when you get them to take part. The advantage we have is that the events are small and I provide all of the grills and tanks so they are tested regularly.

Whether it would work for low and slow? Who knows, I have never tried to get the same amount of smoke into the food using a grill as I do on the WSM or FEC. I can picture someone after too many beers throwing a log on their grill........

[jrbBBQ]

I've been in this thing for about a year now and have much to learn..but here is what I do know.... Myself and most other cooks will use just about any and every technique and equipment deemed legal. Everyone knows the rules and will interpret them to make their best product for turn in. You guys are talking about boosted numbers at comps for more money, but in my first year I seen registration at a few comps over the number for the guaranteed minimum, but with promises of increased prize money for extra teams, they still paid minimum. I don't care what they say we can cook on, everyone pushes the envelope as much as they can to try to get ahead of the curve. Give us rules,we'll abide by them and it causes an increased number of participants.. Great, share the wealth with the people who are showing up every weekend and making these things possible. Without the cookers there are no contests.

[Uncle T]

I have used both liked the gas as far as setting the temp and then you add a couple logs every 6 to 8 hours, it needs electric to run the rotisserie unit, ignite,r and fan. The Wood one is a off set fire box with reverse flow with a rib box, where you have to start your fire, baby it to take hold and then use the vents to control the temp.

I would hope if they allow gas smokers they are factory made, and inspected at the comp before they can be used. I do not see anyone willing to shell out $30,000.00 dollars for a gas smoker that also needs electricity to be used at a comp. I do not see a gas smoker paying for its self in comps. I do not think they will hold up the best being bounced around going down the road on trailers. To many costly parts there to damage,these things are not small by any means.

The wood smokers that are being used by most can be man handled and hauled in vans, and inclosed trailers back of pickup trucks, etc. They don't have that many parts that can get damaged and not be fixed pretty easy by the contestant. Even bigger wood smokers that are on trailers are built to take the bouncing around from the roads. Not many of them ues a rotisserie unit and if they do these seem to be built tougher.

So my point or opinion is as long as there are safety rules in place and are heald up at every comp. then let people use what they want. Also I think every smoker needs to be inspected just like they do the meat. This way the people using Gas, Electric. and wood can't say why am I the only one being picked on. I think that a comp. should be fun, yes taken seriously at the proper time, but if you are not doing this because you love smokeing meat and having fun as well, then why do it. So my answer is let them in, but make sure everyone is treated fairly and evenly.

[ThomEmery]

If the burner were safety certified I would think this idea has a future

[ThomEmery]

Your posted reminded me of that horrible accident that happened to River City Smokehouse a few years ago with the gas assist on his Bates pit... I think the flame went out on the log lighter and gas got trapped and after airing out and re-lighting it exploded and the pit doors blew off and put him in the hospital with shattered knee.

Scary stuff...

I have a sister pit to his
the burner was just a pipe with holes cut in it
We took it off years ago
Yes this is a example of what we can't have

[Brewmaster]

Your posted reminded me of that horrible accident that happened to River City Smokehouse a few years ago with the gas assist on his Bates pit... I think the flame went out on the log lighter and gas got trapped and after airing out and re-lighting it exploded and the pit doors blew off and put him in the hospital with shattered knee.

Scary stuff...

Fitz has been a good friend of my for years. And we are very lucky he is still with us. Besides the shattered knee and fact you can see a perfect imprint of the air vent on his leg. Pieces of the pit flew 50' and imbedded themselves in his daughters car.

Having said that, the pit didn't have a thermocouple. And he did let the pit air out for hours before relighting.

All I'm saying is accidents happen and with propane they seem to be worse.

If this thing does pass, I would hope they would have certified people approving a rig before letting them compete.

Cheers,
Nate

[Dustaway]

I hope it passes I then can use my oven in the rv

[TooSaucedToPork]

Problem is...

We are all allowed to make our own charcoal and wood pits. So once gas is approved for competition, how are we to prevent a homemade pit from entering a contest.
What constitutes a homemade pit?
Will there be a list of approved pits at every contest?
Is there a list of approved manufacturers?
If a guy starts building gas pits professionally, and his professional prototype is at the contest, and it is not on the list due to the newness of his company... Will you tell him to pack up and go home?

You either allow gas or you don't...its that simple. The more rules you stack on it, the more feelings get hurt, and more people are angered.

[boogiesnap]

I hope it passes I then can use my oven in the rv

:behindsofa:

uh boy.

[JD McGee]

Wow...lots of horror stories there...but how much of it was caused by human error as opposed to faulty equipment? I've been cookin' with gassers for 30 years and have NEVER had an incident. It is unfortunate that the mishaps and fears of a few people may spoil it for others that would like to use gas.

I would imagine you'd more than likely be killed by a drunk driver on your way to the competition than be blown up by a propane tank...:cool:

Again...it makes no difference to me one way or another...in the end it's the "Q" that will do the talking...not the tool! :thumb:

[Ron_L]

What size tanks?

20 years on the fire dept. I saw a few tanks blow up and the fireball is huge.

I'm pretty sure that i was at the same competitions that Coz is referring to. Both were the small tanks used by camp stoves, and both explosions were occurred while lighting a charcoal chimney. These accidents can occur whether the pits are gas fueled or not. All it takes is someone getting careless.

Wow...lots of horror stories there...but how much of it was caused by human error as opposed to faulty equipment? I've been cookin' with gassers for 30 years and have NEVER had an incident. It is unfortunate that the mishaps and fears of a few people may spoil it for others that would like to use gas.

I would imagine you'd more than likely be killed by a drunk driver on your way to the competition than be blown up by a propane tank...:cool:

Again...it makes no difference to me one way or another...in the end it's the "Q" that will do the talking...not the tool! :thumb:

Good point, JD, but, think about the setting. If you were cooking using a gas pit at a competition and discovered that the burner had gone out in the middle of the night are you going to do the right thing and let the pit air out, probably giving up your chance at getting the food done in time, or are you going to take a short cut and try to relight it immediately?

I welcome the competition, but there has to be some safety guidelines in place. The requirement for pits to be inspected is fine, but who would do the inspection? If it's not someone certified to inspect propane equipment (the local fire department?), then it's just a formality like most meat inspections.

[moocow]

I don't mind the use of gas for competition. There are so many other variables other than your heat source. The propane safety does scare me a bit but I bet you can find a dozen or so 5 gallon gas cans for generators around any contest site, not to mention fuel tanks in trucks and campers. I don't want to lose the ability to cook on my homemade charcoal smokers but I think the propane cookers should be certified by some government authority like any other gas grill would be. Not sure it's the best idea but it would be safer that way.

[billgailey]

Seems fairly simple when you think about it. If there is enough interest in competing with gas then set up a separate division for that style cooking only and segragate them from the other cookers. That way if there is a legitimate safety concern the gassers would all go up together.

I would personally like to see a division that doesn't allow for pellet poopers or computerized air control systems as well. I have been down the road a pretty long ways and really respect the cooks ability to build a wood fire and turn out Q like the old pitmasters use to do before all these contraptions were invented. Personally I cook on a Lang and a couple of Webers. Use to have a propane grill but always complained about the taste of the meat so 10 years ago I gave it away and never looked back. It is sorta funny that all my "propane" friends like to eat my Q but never invite me over to their place for theirs.

It might be quite interesting to have a wood only division and an "everything else" division, judge them independently and then blind judge the top 3 in each category of both divisons head to head.

I am all for including as many people as possible but for me it will never include propane again.....and that is my 2 cents for what it is worth!

[JD McGee]

I'm pretty sure that i was at the same competitions that Coz is referring to. Both were the small tanks used by camp stoves, and both explosions were occurred while lighting a charcoal chimney. These accidents can occur whether the pits are gas fueled or not. All it takes is someone getting careless.



Good point, JD, but, think about the setting. If you were cooking using a gas pit at a competition and discovered that the burner had gone out in the middle of the night are you going to do the right thing and let the pit air out, probably giving up your chance at getting the food done in time, or are you going to take a short cut and try to relight it immediately?

I welcome the competition, but there has to be some safety guidelines in place. The requirement for pits to be inspected is fine, but who would do the inspection? If it's not someone certified to inspect propane equipment (the local fire department?), then it's just a formality like most meat inspections.

Please don't get me wrong...I am not opposed to safety inspections. I feel they are very important much the same way our fire extinguishers are looked at by the Fire Marshall or other authority. I just don't think we should take an alarmist approach to allowing gassers in comps. As mentioned above there are folks using generators with gas tanks all over the place...it has become common place. :cool:

[HBMTN]

I am more with the comments people have made on safety. A whole drunk crew with a homade set up blown everyone with in 100ft of them away. That said I have been beside a team or two with a weed burner who should not have been allowed to operate a them because of horseplay with it.

As for the cooking end of it I say bring it on, heck if there were huge advantages in it most serious BBQ geeks would be cooking with it at home. The big advantage for restaurants is that they don't have to work all night every night.

[ique]

Seems fairly simple when you think about it. If there is enough interest in competing with gas then set up a separate division for that style cooking only and segragate them from the other cookers.

Already exists. KCBS supports a "Competitor Series" format that allows organizers to run events with special rules... such as allowing gas or stickburners only. LP Que used this format.

If a separate division was formalized how would team of year and jack invites etc get handled?

[MoGreen]

Yawn...

[ovrkl1947]

Has no one ever been burned with wood? I have seen serious burns in numerous situations. Stupidity has no clue what fuel you use!

[Dr_KY]

Has no one ever been burned with wood? I have seen serious burns in numerous situations. Stupidity has no clue what fuel you use!
I would rather get burned with wood than have a pork flavored frag grenade go off anywhere within 1,000 feet.

[carlyle]

I really like all the concern about safety and inspections. As I sit and think about it, I think odds are that fire safety standards and rules will likely be the same patchwork of hodge podge that the health department regulations are.

How many of you need to have your grill tank inspected when you get a refill now?

So even with inspections, it will depend on where you are.

This aspect has to be a part of KCBS set up . There needs to be a lot of thought and consideration for the unintended consequences about what to some seems a good idea.

Something I have not seen a lot of comment about -- what about the taste? Tenderness? Appearance? You know stuff the judges have to look at , evaluate , score .

There is already a lot of criticism of judges. Easy to imagine all sorts of uproar over scoring. Egad! Run for cover!!

If you have a separate division for flame throwers, how you going to judge it?
Additional category? Judges already at capacity with the mandatories plus ancillaries.
More thought needed.

[JD McGee]

I can see it now...:twisted:

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/b7/eb7e9a76-4b6b-11e0-ad53-0017a4a78c22/4d795af83b115.image.jpg

[TooSaucedToPork]

I really like all the concern about safety and inspections. As I sit and think about it, I think odds are that fire safety standards and rules will likely be the same patchwork of hodge podge that the health department regulations are.

Hodge podge with food prep gets a few people a stomach ache
Hodge Podge with a 20 lb grenade gets people burnt...or dead.

How many of you need to have your grill tank inspected when you get a refill now?

They just check to see if it is a current tank, not an older discontinued one.

So even with inspections, it will depend on where you are.

Yup, that is why there would have to be a KCBS certified fire inspector to inspect all the gassers before they are allowed to light up.

This aspect has to be a part of KCBS set up . There needs to be a lot of thought and consideration for the unintended consequences about what to some seems a good idea.

Something I have not seen a lot of comment about -- what about the taste? Tenderness? Appearance? You know stuff the judges have to look at , evaluate , score .

They chose to cook with gas. They judge the same...period

There is already a lot of criticism of judges. Easy to imagine all sorts of uproar over scoring. Egad! Run for cover!!

If its the cook not the cooker as everyone says...this shouldn't make a difference:boxing:

If you have a separate division for flame throwers, how you going to judge it?

Judge it the same, it KCBS

Additional category? Judges already at capacity with the mandatories plus ancillaries.
More thought needed

How do you get the extra prize money for 2 divisions?

[BBQchef33]

Sidenote: If they allow gassers, then butane mini torches can be used to crispy up chicken skin! problem solved! :clap2:

:thumb:

[BBQ Bandit]

Sidenote: If they allow gassers, then butane mini torches can be used to crispy up chicken skin! problem solved! :clap2:

:thumb:

... or bring a 500* Klose.

[Coz]

[QUOTE=Ron_L;1916487]I'm pretty sure that i was at the same competitions that Coz is referring to. Both were the small tanks used by camp stoves, and both explosions were occurred while lighting a charcoal chimney. These accidents can occur whether the pits are gas fueled or not. All it takes is someone getting careless.


One of the instances I dont know who it happened to as we were in the other area of the grounds.The latest one Appeared to be a tank left near a pit . I use a weedburner to lite my pit then it goes to the other end of the trailer. The folks who this happened to in the latest inceident I have and will continue to ask the organisers to move me or them because of this and other stuff that has happened prior . Professional Chef MY ASS

[smokinit]

Sidenote: If they allow gassers, then butane mini torches can be used to crispy up chicken skin! problem solved! :clap2:

:thumb:


Ya what he said:clap2:

[HoDeDo]

As an ambassador of BBQ with the title of Grand Poobah, I think you should go back to stick burning and spread the message of what you'd prefer to see, rather than be a contributor to further public acceptance of these gizmos by the public and other new competitors just for the sake of some sleep and a plastic trophy...

:wink:

Vinny, if he gives up the guru/stokers, and screen of scrolling times/temps, over a wifi connection I would be shocked :) hehehehe :heh:

[HoDeDo]

My spicewine would get 3-4 hours burns unattended.. an occasional minor adjustment of the exhaust.

Then i installed a stoker and spent the next 12-14 hours diddling with it trying to lock temps in.. then i would pull off the stoker and run unattended with the butterflies closed and only the hole left from the stoker for air intake to get back to 1 remainaing unattended 4 hour burns...

simple is better. :thumb:

And here I thought you were attached to the wireless data you could pour over :eusa_clap

[chad]

I've cooked at NBBQ News Best of the Best. Heat is heat. I helped Nancee and Purple Turtle take 2nd in whole hog in the invitational using a gas cooker. It's the cook and not the cooker that "Brings it!" with great BBQ. The safety question is pure BS...most of us have gassers at home and we don't manage to blow up our homes every time we fire up!

[BBQchef33]

And here I thought you were attached to the wireless data you could pour over :eusa_clap


yeah... that too.. :icon_blush:

New name "BBQ Geek"

[HoDeDo]

For the discussion on Safety... KCBS has hosed a gas only comp.... it was the LP-Que. You were required to use a UL certified pit. It had to have a themocouple safety on it that stops gas flow if it goes out. Basically a pilot or a piezo ignition/thermocouple.

That meant Old Hickory, and Southern Pride pits. They had Old Hickory CTOs for rental, if you didnt have a pit that met the spec.

So adding propane likely doesnt mean adding more safety issues.... TODAY, Horizons, Bates, etc pits can be lit with propane log starters... no safety valves, etc here... torches, burners to heat water, dinner....and even the small self contained hot water heaters.... then we have generators, and 5 gal cans of gas...

The propane is already there, and the most of those devices are the ones that are more dangerous. I would imagine if they are to allow propane pits, it will ones that have to meet some minimum safety standards. -- But make no mistake, all the propane and fuel sources that are not for actually cooking, just starting pits, etc are alot more dangerous than the propane powered pits.

[Tack]

I say let em in. I personally will cook with wood and lump but its MY choice. As far as the danger I believe that it is probably more dangerous driving to a comp than having propane pits at the comp.

[SouthernMagicBBQ]

I'm a purist. True 'que requires heat from wood and coals. It takes true skill to master cooking on coals and wood. Gas takes very little skill other than reading the thermostat and temp gauge. Wood and coal takes long slow cooking where gas is hot and fast, hence the name grill for gas burners. Keep the gas where it belongs, in the backyard.

[Crash]

KCBS liability throughout an entire year of cook-offs.....is it really worth it?

I've got no issues competing against gassers, but it only takes one bad propane tank/hookup/uneducated cook.

[smokeyw]

I know that accidents happen but I think people are overreacting to the safety issue created by propane. I have been cooking in NCPC whole hog contests since 2006 and probably do about 12 a year. Most of the cooks are using propane. The largest whole hog competition in the US is in Newport NC. There are 85 or so cook teams and probably 80 of them are cooking with propane. I have never seen an accident created by propane at any of these cook-offs. They do have cooker inspections as well as procedural rules for gas cookers. I know accidents can happen but I think you are far more likely to be in an automobile accident on the way to the cook-off than being injured by a propane accident. I also doubt seriously that the cook-off is liable for any accidents since they have met their burden of safety responsibilities with inspections and rules. I suspect KCBS would be the same way. I know that is not foolproof but you know how lawsuits can be. If people are concerned about people using hand torches to crisp chicken skin etc., there can be separate rules about that. The NCPC rules state that no heat source outside of the actual pig cooker may be used on the pig, to include handheld torches.
I really don't care either way if they allow gas or not. But I don't think safety has to be a show stopper. I know that I won't use gas in a KCBS because I don't think I can produce a product with gas that can be competitive. The end product will always prevail, regardless of the tools used to produce it.

[tmcmaster]

This is another attepmt for the 'non-profit' KCBS to get more of the one thing that they truely care about... MONEY. It has NOTHING to do with educating anyone on the art, history or heritage of BBQ. It's about getting more (to steal a phrase from Vince McMahon) "@$$es in seats!"

Yes, I am a purist. Yes, I am a hardline purist, and yes that infuriates some folks. Good. I am what I am, and I think that allowing gas into a BBQ event makes it not be a BBQ event, but something much closer to one of those lame Food Network 'Challenge' shows.

This might be a perfect time for KCBS to look at something I have been talking about for years, now. Divisions. Doesn't it make more sense to create a gas only, or wood only, or open class division to allow for a more even playing field? (I will await the flames, slings and arrows for this)

[jbrink01]

The safety and liability issue is a farce IMHO, as, like Andy said, there are all sorts of propane devices at the comp anyway, not to mention a number of POS campers that could go up in flames at any moment. I've won Grands with stick burner and pellet pooper alike. Bring it on, because I dont think gas would yield as flavorful a result day in and day out anyway. (But it would sure be handy for finishing chicken!)

[SirPorkaLot]

This is another attepmt for the 'non-profit' KCBS to get more of the one thing that they truely care about... MONEY. It has NOTHING to do with educating anyone on the art, history or heritage of BBQ. It's about getting more (to steal a phrase from Vince McMahon) "@$$es in seats!"

Yes, I am a purist. Yes, I am a hardline purist, and yes that infuriates some folks. Good. I am what I am, and I think that allowing gas into a BBQ event makes it not be a BBQ event, but something much closer to one of those lame Food Network 'Challenge' shows.

This might be a perfect time for KCBS to look at something I have been talking about for years, now. Divisions. Doesn't it make more sense to create a gas only, or wood only, or open class division to allow for a more even playing field? (I will await the flames, slings and arrows for this)

+1 for everything that you posted. :thumb:

[Lake Dogs]

This is another attepmt for the 'non-profit' KCBS to get more of the one thing that they truely care about... MONEY. It has NOTHING to do with educating anyone on the art, history or heritage of BBQ. It's about getting more (to steal a phrase from Vince McMahon) "@$$es in seats!"

Yes, I am a purist. Yes, I am a hardline purist, and yes that infuriates some folks. Good. I am what I am, and I think that allowing gas into a BBQ event makes it not be a BBQ event, but something much closer to one of those lame Food Network 'Challenge' shows.

This might be a perfect time for KCBS to look at something I have been talking about for years, now. Divisions. Doesn't it make more sense to create a gas only, or wood only, or open class division to allow for a more even playing field? (I will await the flames, slings and arrows for this)


FLAME ON: :thumb: No, actually, I agree with you. It really begs the question of what IS and ISN'T barbecue in the first place, and then how does a sanctioning body regulate/enforce it (the making of barbecue).

Oh well, here's company in that fire.

As to getting butts in the seats, perhaps the different divisions is needed. That or create KCGS (Kansas City Grilling Society).

[Ron_L]

Wood and coal takes long slow cooking where gas is hot and fast, hence the name grill for gas burners. Keep the gas where it belongs, in the backyard.

I have to disagree with this distinction. I grill regularly using wood or charcoal. The difference between low and slow and hot and fast has nothing to do with the fuel. It is based on the placement of the heat source and the temperatures involved. Typically low and slow is done using indirect heat at lower temps (although some cookers, like a UDS, use direct heat but farther from the food) and grilling is done using direct heat and typically higher temps. Either can be accomplished using gas or wood/charcoal for fuel.

[tmcmaster]

I have to disagree with this distinction. I grill regularly using wood or charcoal. The difference between low and slow and hot and fast has nothing to do with the fuel. It is based on the placement of the heat source and the temperatures involved. Typically low and slow is done using indirect heat at lower temps (although some cookers, like a UDS, use direct heat but farther from the food) and grilling is done using direct heat and typically higher temps. Either can be accomplished using gas or wood/charcoal for fuel.

You can also get and maintain a low temp using an electric oven. And since electric is provided at most KCBS comps, why not permit the Kenmore Ovens as well? This is a mighty slippery slope that KCBS is on, and I think they are being extremely short-sighted.

[Ron_L]

You can also get and maintain a low temp using an electric oven. And since electric is provided at most KCBS comps, why not permit the Kenmore Ovens as well? This is a mighty slippery slope that KCBS is on, and I think they are being extremely short-sighted.

I think you're stretching my intent a little :rolleyes:

I wasn't advocating the use of any specific fuel source, just disagreeing the generalization that all gas fueled cookers are grills.

But, if you want to drag the ol' Kenmore out there, have at it!

[dmprantz]

I "said my peace" on the safety issue a couple pages ago, but something else has been going around in my head: a lot of people talk about purity and BBQ is this and BBQ isn't that. Seems to me that 26 years ago, BBQ was all about low and slow with wood or charcoal, but there is a lot of hot and fast cooking out there, and it's winning. My point is that you can't effectively tell people what BBQ is nor how to cook it. If it passes the muster on the appearance/taste/tenderness scale, it's BBQ. What are you going to do, try to tell competitors that they can't let their pit temp get above 275*, because then they'd be grilling or roasting and these are BBQ competitions? What is pure and true BBQ to you makes no difference in a competition. It's all about what the judges like. Period.

dmp

[tmcmaster]

I think you're stretching my intent a little :rolleyes:

I wasn't advocating the use of any specific fuel source, just disagreeing the generalization that all gas fueled cookers are grills.

But, if you want to drag the ol' Kenmore out there, have at it!

I wasn't attempting to flame you, specifically. What I wanted to illustrate was the 'slippery slope' that KCBS is currently on.

[tmcmaster]

I "said my peace" on the safety issue a couple pages ago, but something else has been going around in my head: a lot of people talk about purity and BBQ is this and BBQ isn't that. Seems to me that 26 years ago, BBQ was all about low and slow with wood or charcoal, but there is a lot of hot and fast cooking out there, and it's winning. My point is that you can't effectively tell people what BBQ is nor how to cook it. If it passes the muster on the appearance/taste/tenderness scale, it's BBQ. What are you going to do, try to tell competitors that they can't let their pit temp get above 275*, because then they'd be grilling or roasting and these are BBQ competitions? What is pure and true BBQ to you makes no difference in a competition. It's all about what the judges like. Period.

dmp

I respectfully disagree. If you can get the results of tender and tasty BBQ using wood in a 900* cooker, have at it. Changing the cooking medium from wood to gas takes the 'competition' out of it. I can get fantastic reults in my electric oven, but that isn't BBQ. It might be great pulled pork or a tender brisket, but it is NOT BBQ.

[TooSaucedToPork]

Safety isn't an issue??

I went through this entire thread. There are 8 of us that have seen 1 or multiple propane accidents in BBQ.

Some burnt peoples hair, some left them with crippling injurys.

Now relate this 10% of Brethren posters in this thread to the 5200 KCBS teams, and the countless newbies that will join in the fun with their gas grills.

thats 520 teams

now if 1% of those teams get drunk and stupid (we know more than 1% do this at a contest)

Thats 6 teams that left a propane bottle too near a fire, it heats up.

It doesn't explode, it releases gas like it is supposed to, problem is they are releasing gas around 5 teams with lit pits around their 20x20 spot.

Do you want to be the team next to them???

Gas IS a safety issue, and It can't be controled like our current checklist of quickly verifying fire extinguisher, gloves, meat etc.

Wood and charcoal don't explode...period

I have had gas explode next to me due to a small hole in the line I didn't see...It can happen...It is NOT fun


It only takes 1 Propane BLEVE to ruin a contest and permanantly tarnish KCBS.

[Redheart]

Seems to me we should be banning the alcohol and not the LPG.:banplease:

[Tack]

Then taking that too the next logical step would be the outlawing of ANY propane at a contest.

[tmcmaster]

Then taking that too the next logical step would be the outlawing of ANY propane at a contest.
www.GoNakedBBQ.com (http://www.GoNakedBBQ.com)

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

[JD McGee]

In regards to the BBQ purists...I have nothing but respect for tradition...but let's face it...the stick burners used today are nothing close to purist BBQ...if you want pure...dig a pit!

Then...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4hPN2t1YIPk/Tv5q2uJdLVI/AAAAAAAAGMs/QsO54voKwjo/s1600/BBQcoloPITw.jpg

Now...

http://www.jambopits.com/J5-2_op_669x446.jpg

A lot of folks wanting to get in to competition BBQ only know BBQ as what was cooked in their backyard on a gasser or charcoal grill. When I was a kid growing up my idea of bbq was a burned hot dog or hamburger on the 4th of July. BBQ has evolved...much in the same way as the technology that allows us to chit chat with each other about our hobby/profession/obsession every day via the internet. The tools that we use today to produce BBQ are no different than the ones our ancestors used...pit...fire...spices. The only difference is that our tools have evolved. To say that competition BBQ is true or purist BBQ is a stretch of the imagination as well...again...it has evolved...I don't believe our forefathers injected their pork butt or briskets, trimmed their ribs "St Louis" style, or scraped chicken skin...:cool:

[TooSaucedToPork]

In regards to the BBQ purists...I have nothing but respect for tradition...but let's face it...the stick burners used today are nothing close to purist BBQ...if you want pure...dig a pit!

If we were allowed to I would...:thumb:

It would show who has the skills and who doesn't...:becky:

[JD McGee]

If we were allowed to I would...:thumb:

It would show who has the skills and who doesn't...:becky:

I am certain a lot of folks would love that challenge...myself included...:thumb:

[Ron_L]

I wasn't attempting to flame you, specifically. What I wanted to illustrate was the 'slippery slope' that KCBS is currently on.

I know that you weren't flaming.

[TooSaucedToPork]

And I would take you up on that challenge...:thumb:

Not to get off topic but...

Honestly - If an organizer could pull it off as a Friday challenge, this would be awesome...I love true pit cooking, and would love to see it at a contest.

[JD McGee]

Not to get off topic but...

Honestly - If an organizer could pull it off as a Friday challenge, this would be awesome...I love true pit cooking, and would love to see it at a contest.

Same here...it would be cool to see a field of pits and folks cookin' it old school. I suppose the closest thing that may be possible would be cinderblock pits and a pile of wood...:thumb:

[Tack]

Twll me where and when to bring my shovel!!!!!

[tmcmaster]

Not to get off topic but...

Honestly - If an organizer could pull it off as a Friday challenge, this would be awesome...I love true pit cooking, and would love to see it at a contest.
I would be first in line for that!!!

[dmprantz]

Would it be cheating or not real BBQ if I brought a back hoe?

[Jorge]

As I've said before, on of the best lines ever was "I only regret that I won't have the opportunity to whoop your gas burning ass!".

It came from a well known, and respected cook leading up to LPQ. Cooks want to cook, compete, and take on all comers. Purists want to define BBQ as a process, and not a product. I tend to believe that we should let the judges decide what good BBQ is. Once the box is turned in, it's up to them whether or not they care how it was cooked...

I get it, and I'm reading it.

[TooSaucedToPork]

Would it be cheating or not real BBQ if I brought a back hoe?

Only if it looked like this
http://backyardcity.com/Images/Kettler/Toys/CAT-813001-BackhoeLoader.jpg

[kurtsara]

Safety isn't an issue??

I went through this entire thread. There are 8 of us that have seen 1 or multiple propane accidents in BBQ.

Some burnt peoples hair, some left them with crippling injurys.

Now relate this 10% of Brethren posters in this thread to the 5200 KCBS teams, and the countless newbies that will join in the fun with their gas grills.

thats 520 teams

now if 1% of those teams get drunk and stupid (we know more than 1% do this at a contest)

Thats 6 teams that left a propane bottle too near a fire, it heats up.

It doesn't explode, it releases gas like it is supposed to, problem is they are releasing gas around 5 teams with lit pits around their 20x20 spot.

Do you want to be the team next to them???

Gas IS a safety issue, and It can't be controled like our current checklist of quickly verifying fire extinguisher, gloves, meat etc.

Wood and charcoal don't explode...period

I have had gas explode next to me due to a small hole in the line I didn't see...It can happen...It is NOT fun


It only takes 1 Propane BLEVE to ruin a contest and permanantly tarnish KCBS.


Of the eight that have seen the accidents I would none of them were tank explosions or believes, I would guess it was the relief valve doing what it is supposed to do.

I would say ban alcohol, then more would get a good nights sleep

[Lake Dogs]

> I tend to believe that we should let the judges decide what good BBQ is. Once the box is turned in, it's up to them whether or not they care how it was cooked...

Actually it's my opinion that the judge should never judge on how or what it was cooked on and merely be judging the meat presented against the standard set forth by the sanctioning body.

It's up to the sanctioning body to define what is and isn't the standard, and that includes what it's being cooked on and with.


The added risk of fire hazards should kill this by itself. Then, IMHO, KCBS BOD needs to decide separately what is and isn't barbecue as defined by the sanctioning body, and then stick to that, whatever that is.

For example, I'm of the personal way-out there position that chicken isn't any more barbecue than is fish. I think we need a 5th category; fish. Perhaps specify catfish. Nothing quite as good as nicely smoked flaky moist catfish! But, is it barbecue?... Sure, why not? 'Course, those darn folks from Kentucky think it's about Mutton... Awe hell, there goes the neighborhood!!!!

[RX2006JE]

Aren't there the same risks with allowing LP tanks that start fires in pits and with the flamethrowers(weed burners, of which I use) to start your pit up, as there would be with allowing someone to use an LP smoker. So I don't think that you can argue the safety issue without arguing if these types of fire starters should be allowed or not

[Alexa RnQ]

^^Which is a really good point. They make me nervous as hell, and I get sneered at for being girly.

Let's go hardcore and ban propane AND alcohol, and see how far that gets.

[tmcmaster]

^^Which is a really good point. They make me nervous as hell, and I get sneered at for being girly.

Let's go hardcore and ban propane AND alcohol, and see how far that gets.
I would go. I cook better without the Devil's Cola, anyway...:thumb:

[JD McGee]

Surely you are not suggesting alcohol would play a roll in fire safety??? We all know it is not permitted at most sanctioned comps...perhaps all...lol!

[Alexa RnQ]

I can see the advertising now -- "Sober Q"!

I can also hear the whining about how we're no fun and we take it too seriously. Pfft. :becky:

[TooSaucedToPork]

If you are going to argue traditions...then booze is right there with burnt wood and fresh meat.

Beer is 8000 years old...wherever there is a pig roasting, there's booze.:becky:

[smokeyw]

What about "The Jack"? I'm sure the no booze rule would go over well there :crazy:

[TooSaucedToPork]

What about "The Jack"? I'm sure the no booze rule would go over well there :crazy:

:becky:Lynchburg is in a dry county:becky:

[Alexa RnQ]

And the barbecue is held in Wiseman Park, which is public property where alcohol consumption is prohibited.

[Lake Dogs]

I think "The Jack" would become.... "The Jill"?...

[tmcmaster]

Nearly EVERY contest I have been to has a "No Alcohol" statement... It's always greeted with a wink and a nod, and the red cup rule... But, the rule is there.

[Slamdunkpro]

Aren't there the same risks with allowing LP tanks that start fires in pits and with the flamethrowers(weed burners, of which I use) to start your pit up, as there would be with allowing someone to use an LP smoker. So I don't think that you can argue the safety issue without arguing if these types of fire starters should be allowed or not

There is a difference: Weed burners, gas camp stoves, gas grills and even gas hog cookers differ from gas smokers in that they are all open air devices. Pits on the other hand are closed, low draft semi sealed spaces. If you get a gas leak on a grill or weed burner, it vents to open air, on a semi sealed cooker, you're creating a fuel/air bomb. Construction is also different, if you fill up a gas grill with gas then ignite it you'll pop the lid up (maybe off) but not much more. Fill up a 900 lb 3/16" rolled steel cooker with gas and,,,,,,,:shocked:.

On another note, the people who design commercial gas grills are engineers. I don't know how many of the name cooker makers are engineers by trade but I'll bet it's less than 35%. Most of the LP systems I've seen in commercial pits are no more than a capped pipe welded into the fire box with some holes drilled in them and a screw valve attached to the outside of the box. These are easy extinguished as there is no air venturi. This is the system that nearly blew up my Pitts and Spitts offset. They are intended to be used to light the wood in your pit with the door open, not to be used as a cooking heat source with the door closed.

If you allow gas cookers, how many people will run out, get a turkey fryer burner or two or three and try to jury rig it into their current pit? Inspect them prior to an event? Look at how much of a joke meat inspection has become. Do you really want to be surrounded on 4 sides with home made LP cookers held to that standard of inspection?

[TooSaucedToPork]

Nearly EVERY contest I have been to has a "No Alcohol" statement... It's always greeted with a wink and a nod, and the red cup rule... But, the rule is there.

Really? Where is everyone cooking that they don't allow booze?

In my 17 years of BBQ Contests down South and my 2 up here in NY, I have been to maybe 4 without a Public Beer Tent. 2 of those were BYOB.

Since moving here to WNY, 1 contest gave us FREE BOOZE.

[Jorge]

What about "The Jack"? I'm sure the no booze rule would go over well there :crazy:

Amazingly enough, it seems to work out:becky:

[Kit R]

Really? Where is everyone cooking that they don't allow booze?

In my 17 years of BBQ Contests down South and my 2 up here in NY, I have been to maybe 4 without a Public Beer Tent. 2 of those were BYOB.

Since moving here to WNY, 1 contest gave us FREE BOOZE.

Three comps I attended in 2011 were run at least in part by Amish folks (Middletown DE, New Holland PA, and Shrewsbury PA) and two more were run in part by a church affiliated group (Easton PA and Chambersburg PA). I honestly can't remember if there was a no alcohol rule in New Holland, but Middletown, Easton, Shrewsbury and Chambersburg were definitely no alcohol comps. But like Tim said, discretion in the form of red cups was the rule in practice and it seemed to work OK with the exception of Chambersburg. Conspicuous consumption and a dumpster overflowing with various empty alcohol containers contributed to the relocation of that comp for 2012.

Not counting the Sam's Club series events or the Jack, almost half of the comps we did were no alcohol in name at least. Counting Sam's Club and the Jack it was two thirds.

[Kit R]

There is a difference: Weed burners, gas camp stoves, gas grills and even gas hog cookers differ from gas smokers in that they are all open air devices. Pits on the other hand are closed, low draft semi sealed spaces. If you get a gas leak on a grill or weed burner, it vents to open air, on a semi sealed cooker, you're creating a fuel/air bomb. Construction is also different, if you fill up a gas grill with gas then ignite it you'll pop the lid up (maybe off) but not much more. Fill up a 900 lb 3/16" rolled steel cooker with gas and,,,,,,,:shocked:.

On another note, the people who design commercial gas grills are engineers. I don't know how many of the name cooker makers are engineers by trade but I'll bet it's less than 35%. Most of the LP systems I've seen in commercial pits are no more than a capped pipe welded into the fire box with some holes drilled in them and a screw valve attached to the outside of the box. These are easy extinguished as there is no air venturi. This is the system that nearly blew up my Pitts and Spitts offset. They are intended to be used to light the wood in your pit with the door open, not to be used as a cooking heat source with the door closed.

If you allow gas cookers, how many people will run out, get a turkey fryer burner or two or three and try to jury rig it into their current pit? Inspect them prior to an event? Look at how much of a joke meat inspection has become. Do you really want to be surrounded on 4 sides with home made LP cookers held to that standard of inspection?

Thanks for the concise explanation of what came to mind as I read this thread. I was thinking more about Tim and Tickle from Moonshiners and their "no regulator" propane-fired still, but the Pitts and Spits story is even more troubling.

[SirPorkaLot]

Three comps I attended in 2011 were run at least in part by Amish folks (Middletown DE, New Holland PA, and Shrewsbury PA) and two more were run in part by a church affiliated group (Easton PA and Chambersburg PA). I honestly can't remember if there was a no alcohol rule in New Holland, but Middletown, Easton, Shrewsbury and Chambersburg were definitely no alcohol comps. But like Tim said, discretion in the form of red cups was the rule in practice and it seemed to work OK with the exception of Chambersburg. Conspicuous consumption and a dumpster overflowing with various empty alcohol containers contributed to the relocation of that comp for 2012.

Not counting the Sam's Club series events or the Jack, almost half of the comps we did were no alcohol in name at least. Counting Sam's Club and the Jack it was two thirds.

You sir are going to the wrong comps then.
:tsk:

I have yet to attend one where alcohol was banned, nor do I have an interest to do so.

Good thing I do it as a hobby and don't take it too seriously.
:becky:

[dmprantz]

Really? Where is everyone cooking that they don't allow booze?

I would say that at least half of the 8 competitions we did last year "prohibited" alcohol. None of them had issue with it if you drank responsibly, and some even gave liquor to teams in goody bags. They also mostly put red cups in our goody bags just in case.

dmp

[Smokenstein & monster crew]

I have gas at every contest :-P:icon_blush:
and may i say excuse me now if i ever meet you

[Kit R]

You sir are going to the wrong comps then.
:tsk:

I have yet to attend one where alcohol was banned, nor do I have an interest to do so.

Good thing I do it as a hobby and don't take it too seriously.
:becky:

At the risk of going too far off-topic, the only point I wanted to make was that there are a lot of no alcohol comps out there, but as long as you are cool about your consumption it's generally tolerated.

[Rich Parker]

I would like to see the decision to open it up to propane cookers made by a vote of the membership.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Really? Where is everyone cooking that they don't allow booze?

In my 17 years of BBQ Contests down South and my 2 up here in NY, I have been to maybe 4 without a Public Beer Tent. 2 of those were BYOB.

Since moving here to WNY, 1 contest gave us FREE BOOZE.

I attended 2 contest in 2011 that had free food AND beer for the cooks. I've been to contests in dry towns and the local police just kindly asked us to put it in a cup. Jim Beam sponsored 3 events last year and we received travel shots in the goodie bags. They are sponsoring a 5 event points chase for 2012 and I expect they will be in the goodie bags at all 5 events.

[Big George's BBQ]

I have heard of charcoal/wook smokers causing a fire. I would hate to see that next to a propane cooker

[VA BBQ PIRATES]

If you allow gas cookers, how many people will run out, get a turkey fryer burner or two or three and try to jury rig it into their current pit?

So cutting a hole in my WSM and balancing it over my turkey fryer may not be a good idea?:shock:

[smokeyw]

Don't laugh, you can buy a factory made smoker like that now :becky:

So cutting a hole in my WSM and balancing it over my turkey fryer may not be a good idea?:shock:

[Greendriver]

It took a while but I read this entire ridiculous thread. Safety of course would be a valid concern but the issue of allowing cooking with gas and the picture that paints of KCBS is the main concern IMO. If they do allow it they go from being the main player in the field of sanctioning that sets the standards to just another s. body that allows all sorts of things to be placed ahead of their integrity in the world of bbq.

[Slamdunkpro]

It took a while but I read this entire ridiculous thread. Safety of course would be a valid concern but the issue of allowing cooking with gas and the picture that paints of KCBS is the main concern IMO. If they do allow it they go from being the main player in the field of sanctioning that sets the standards to just another s. body that allows all sorts of things to be placed ahead of their integrity in the world of bbq.


Integrity hasn't been a big concern of KCBS for a while now

[TooSaucedToPork]

Integrity hasn't been a big concern of KCBS for a while now

No doubt... I hope our newly elected friends can turn that around for us...

[vafish]

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't participate in bbq comps (yet).

I use gas when I want to throw some burgers on the grill quick for dinner, but to me real bbq has to be done over wood or charcoal. If you are going to allow gas in bbq company are you going to allow electric too?

That's my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[tmcmaster]

Integrity hasn't been a big concern of KCBS for a while now
I feel that slight tinge of HOPE every year after elections... But that usually goes away by March. Let's see if our newly elected BoD members prove me wrong.:pray:

[Jacked UP BBQ]

Cooking with propane would be great! Safety of course is an issue that is why you have a fire inspector come around. Most events you are all at have thousand and thousands of pounds of propane all around you with the vendors and rarely is there an accident. Has that stopped you from showing up? or is it just because the safety issue might give someone an edge and it scares you!??

[Jorge]

Cooking with propane would be great! Safety of course is an issue that is why you have a fire inspector come around. Most events you are all at have thousand and thousands of pounds of propane all around you with the vendors and rarely is there an accident. Has that stopped you from showing up? or is it just because the safety issue might give someone an edge and it scares you!??

Who let you out of the kitchen?

[EZQ2]

What did MAN; cook with before propane?

[tmcmaster]

Cooking with propane would be great! Safety of course is an issue that is why you have a fire inspector come around. Most events you are all at have thousand and thousands of pounds of propane all around you with the vendors and rarely is there an accident. Has that stopped you from showing up? or is it just because the safety issue might give someone an edge and it scares you!??
Anabolic steroids and Human Growth Hormone give athletes an edge, as well. I guess you are OK with those in baseball and football?

My simple argument is this: Are we "competing" or are we just cooking? This slippery slope eventually leads to who can purchase the best BBQ from Famous Dave's or Damon's or where ever... of course, I also think that pellet poopers and Guru's are borderline unethical...:mad2: So take that for what it's worth.:tape:

[Lakeside Smoker]

I think some of you are mixing up 'the art of traditional BBQ' with KCBS competition cooking. They have very little to do with each other.

[smokeyw]

I'm not unsympathetic to the "BBQ Purist" wanting to preserve the art. I personally love cooking with wood. However, let's face it. The only thing traditional about a turn in box today, is the fact that it was cooked by wood or charcoal. If we want to be completely traditional, shouldn't we be cooking on a pit in the ground? Shouldn't we be making our own rubs, sauces and injections? Back in the "traditional pit days", you had to do it all. Free enterprise and technology has already played a huge role in how we produce our que. Should we stop moving forward now?

[boogiesnap]

i'll put my comp recipes in my WSM's up against any cooked in anything any day.
in that regard, i couldn't care less.

however, there should be SOME ties to traditional BBQ and competition cooking.

moreover, i surely don't want myself or my family to be surrounded by open flame AND propane tanks. it's dangerous enough out there.

venders, i would imagine, have a somewhat higher standard, regarding equipment and certification to vend safely.

[NRA4Life]

Free enterprise and technology has already played a huge role in how we produce our que. Should we stop moving forward now?

Yes. The fuel that is burned in making the barbeque may be the only thing remotely considered "traditional" in the current rules and processes. That is important to me, and I think it is important to others.

[smokeyw]

I don't know that I agree with this very bold statement. I'm sure some of the vendors are just there to make money and may have NO standards at all. I just don't think that you made a fair statement when you put standards into one particular group. In addition, there are already a lot of cooks out there that are using propane in some form or another. Maybe a weed burner for startup or a propane stove in a motor home. I'm just saying, it is already all around you.

venders, i would imagine, have a somewhat higher standard, regarding equipment and certification to vend safely.

[Lake Dogs]

As a competitor I frankly dont give a rats *** what my competition is cooking on. I've beaten the big boyz with their very expensive sets of smokers and I've been beaten by a guy with Webers...

As a competitor I am a little concerned about safety. If this can be addressed and managed, like I said above, fine.

However, as a judge and someone who is passionate about barbecue, IMHO if it's cooked with gas it's not barbecue at all. Great tasting yes, but not Q. Along this, I'm of the opinion that chicken is Q either, just like fish isn't Q. Ok, I'm strange this way. Fair enough. But to me BBQ is beef or pork cooked on smokers fired by wood and/or charcoal (which is charred wood).

[SirPorkaLot]

I'm not unsympathetic to the "BBQ Purist" wanting to preserve the art. I personally love cooking with wood. However, let's face it. The only thing traditional about a turn in box today, is the fact that it was cooked by wood or charcoal. If we want to be completely traditional, shouldn't we be cooking on a pit in the ground? Shouldn't we be making our own rubs, sauces and injections? Back in the "traditional pit days", you had to do it all. Free enterprise and technology has already played a huge role in how we produce our que. Should we stop moving forward now?

For your info, some of us do make our own rubs and sauces, and I wouldnt exactly call allowing gas as a fuel in BBQ, "moving forward"

[boogiesnap]

I don't know that I agree with this very bold statement. I'm sure some of the vendors are just there to make money and may have NO standards at all. I just don't think that you made a fair statement when you put standards into one particular group. In addition, there are already a lot of cooks out there that are using propane in some form or another. Maybe a weed burner for startup or a propane stove in a motor home. I'm just saying, it is already all around you.

OOOOHKAAAY. :roll:

1) i'm sure there's a few vendors that would disagree with you about their requirements to vend.
2) a weed burner used for 2 minutes vs. a 200lb tank used for 18 hours, yeah that's the same.
3) a propane stove in a motor home? probably the same likelyhood of danger as the gas tank in my car. plus, it is INSIDE the motor home.

compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

just sayin'. :thumb:

[smokeyw]

I know that some do make their own rubs and sauces. However, I know that this is the exception rather than the rule. I don't really care, I was just trying to make a point about tradition. And allowing gas as a fuel may not be moving forward. But we don't know that yet. I suspect if it is allowed you will see more technology in the que world as a result. Once again, I really don't care. I'm just trying to be open minded.

For your info, some of us do make our own rubs and sauces, and I wouldnt exactly call allowing gas as a fuel in BBQ, "moving forward"

[smokeyw]

You obviously get what I am saying. This is exactly the way I feel about using propane fired smokers that are properly built and inspected. In addition, if you know much about propane safety, inside a motor home can definitely be worse than outside.

a propane stove in a motor home? probably the same likelyhood of danger as the gas tank in my car. plus, it is INSIDE the motor home.
just sayin'. :thumb:

[boogiesnap]

You obviously get what I am saying. This is exactly the way I feel about using propane fired smokers that are properly built and inspected. In addition, if you know much about propane safety, inside a motor home can definitely be worse than outside.

ah, now we agree. the hook, however, is properly built and inspected.

[bover]

Sounds like the BoD rules committee is going to be having some fun discussions this year.

[Rich Parker]

Anabolic steroids and Human Growth Hormone give athletes an edge, as well. I guess you are OK with those in baseball and football?

My simple argument is this: Are we "competing" or are we just cooking? This slippery slope eventually leads to who can purchase the best BBQ from Famous Dave's or Damon's or where ever... of course, I also think that pellet poopers and Guru's are borderline unethical...:mad2: So take that for what it's worth.:tape:

Oh come on Tim, you can't be serious to be concerned with teams buying restaurant food. :tsk:

I would rather compete against a restaurants bbq any day rather than 90% of the teams out there.

[tmcmaster]

Oh come on Tim, you can't be serious to be concerned with teams buying restaurant food. :tsk:

I would rather compete against a restaurants bbq any day rather than 90% of the teams out there.
I am sure 20 years ago, NO ONE was concerned with electronic assisted air flow devices or auger fed pellet cookers.:boxing:The point is there could be consequences that are far reaching and delayed to this decision.

Sounds like the BoD rules committee is going to be having some fun discussions this year.

The answer is simple... How many more dollars will it bring the KCB$$$$?:boxing:

[Lake Dogs]

> smokeyw

> I'm not unsympathetic to the "BBQ Purist" wanting to preserve the art.

THANKS.

> I personally love cooking with wood. However, let's face it. The only
> thing traditional about a turn in box today, is the fact that it was
> cooked by wood or charcoal.

I'll agree, in part... Lets proceed:

> If we want to be completely traditional, shouldn't we be cooking on a
> pit in the ground?

You bet, but the city who owns the parking lot we just dug up would probably be REALLY ticked off! Frankly you're talking now about a virtual impossibility. However, if one is close, and it's on ground that I consider condusive to quality barbecue, I'll compete.


> Shouldn't we be making our own rubs, sauces and injections?

Personally, I do and always plan to do so. I only use commercial sauces at home when giving folks options. The injection and rub that I use are my own, both at competitions and at home. Your experience is obviously different, and that's fine, and that's certainly your choice. It doesn't make the product any less "barbecue".


> Back in the "traditional pit days", you had to do it all. Free enterprise
> and technology has already played a huge role in how we produce
> our que. Should we stop moving forward now?

Nope, should always move forward. However, this isn't a baking competition, this isn't a boiling competition, it isn't a grilling competition, it's barbecue. Gas, IMHO, isn't barbecue. It's either baking or grilling depending on how it's set up, but not barbecue. If we want to have a baking contest, then yes lets do it. That, or lets rename KCBS to KCGS (KC Grilling Society).

[Jacked UP BBQ]

I took this from amazingribs.com.....everyone has there own category!
Barbecue Traditionalist. These hard core purists preach the traditions of barbecue and cook only in a hand dug trench with wood embers. They always make their own rubs, mops, and sauces from scratch. Not many of them left. In fact, I've never met one.
Barbecue Modernists. These folks call themselves purists and say they are serious about tradition, but they use large metal cookers with charcoal for fuel. Many even purchase their rubs and sauces.
Barbecue Post Modernists. These crazed radicals, Yours Truly among them, use digital thermometers, thermostats, the Texas Crutch (http://www.amazingribs.com/BBQ_articles/barbecue_defined.html#texascrutch), wood pellets, injections, and some even use gas or electric cookers. We respect tradition, but are not afraid to innovate. We like to make great tasting food any way we can. We think food is fun and there should be no rules in the back yard, in the kitchen, or in the bedroom.

[Jacked UP BBQ]

So for all you barbecue modernists, become post modernists, because you are not really tradionalists anyway! hahahaha

[SirPorkaLot]

I find it incredibly sad the author of that piece has never met a BBQ traditionalist. That says more about the state of BBQ than anything does.

I think you will find there are a few more of us out there than you realize.



I have cooked in a trench in the ground.

I have and do cook with wood embers, regularly.

I own a burn barrel, to pre-burn my wood and shovel out the embers to use in my offset firebox (same as trench in ground)
No charcoal, nothing but fresh hardwood embers.

I have done this in KCBS competition, and as long as the farking BBQ post modernists don't outlaw live fire cooking, I will again.

I do make all my own rubs, mops and finishing sauces ( which are used sparingly)

I am a BBQ traditionalist and I am proud of it.

[Jacked UP BBQ]

I just gotta know how an offset is the same as a trench in the ground?

[tmcmaster]

I just gotta know how an offset is the same as a trench in the ground?

That's really a straw man argument. :icon_shy

[Lake Dogs]

I suppose by that definition I'm reluctantly a modernist. This is the first house that I've owned in 30 years that doesn't have a whole hog pit. I'll probably build one someday, but as in competitions they pretty much dont want you burning the ground (ala. they really want you using some type of rig/smoker), I have a good sized offset smoker that will cook a whole hog. Nothing against the other types of smokers, but an offset is closer to a traditional pit than say the cabinet pellet/wafer type, so I have an offset.

I still make my own rubs and sauces.

So much for definitions, what say lets get back to the topic, should KCBS embrace gas as a legal fuel source?

[dmprantz]

I'm just askin to ask here, but isn't a direct heat cooker with no access to the coals underneath but access to place coals on top the closest thing you can get to a hole in the ground? And then isn't an insulated pit closer to the ground than solid steel? I mean, the ground is pretty darned insulated. I think ceramic or concrete would be closest, but after that, thin steel with lots of insulation in a flat top cooker. Well, okay, I guess a cinder block hog cooker is pretty close.....but still, offset is modern. It helps you control the heat. No?

dmp

[smokeyw]

I have heard several of the self proclaimed BBQ traditionalist say they make their own sauces and rubs. However, I have not heard anyone say "I don't inject my meats" or "I don't use foil to wrap my meats". I'm pretty sure those things are not traditional. Just saying......

[kurtsara]

OOOOHKAAAY. :roll:

1) i'm sure there's a few vendors that would disagree with you about their requirements to vend.
2) a weed burner used for 2 minutes vs. a 200lb tank used for 18 hours, yeah that's the same.
3) a propane stove in a motor home? probably the same likelyhood of danger as the gas tank in my car. plus, it is INSIDE the motor home.

compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

just sayin'. :thumb:

Who in the heck would bring a 200lb LP tank to a competition?


I have heard several of the self proclaimed BBQ traditionalist say they make their own sauces and rubs. However, I have not heard anyone say "I don't inject my meats" or "I don't use foil to wrap my meats". I'm pretty sure those things are not traditional. Just saying......

Or forming chicken thighs in a muffin pan to make them all look identical traditional BBQ? Just saying... Seems to be the phrase to end with

[boogiesnap]

Who in the heck would bring a 200lb LP tank to a competition?




Or forming chicken thighs in a muffin pan to make them all look identical traditional BBQ? Just saying... Seems to be the phrase to end with

you're right, i meant cooker size fueled by propane. :icon_blush:

thanks for the correction. just sayin' :thumb::rolleyes:

[tmcmaster]

I think this is degenerating into a "My way is better than your way, just sayin" thread.

We all seem to be hitting the bullseye of the wrong target. To my mind, the competition is competition BBQ is what is important. Propane is far too much of advantage for things like heat control/consistency than anything else. Aside from the saftey issue, which I think we all agree is paramount, just sayin.

I go back to my steroids statement. Are they used in pro sports? Yes. Do they provide an advantage? Yes. Can someone on steroids still be bested by a 'natural athelete? Sure, it could and does happen, but the steroids provide a HUGE advantage. I think the same is true for propane/LP. I think someone mentioned a KCGS (Grilling Society) distinction, and that is propably the best play they could make on this. It opens up the market and money they are obviously concerned with, but also allows the BBQ purists/traditionalists/modernists (WTF ever we are calling it) to continue with our contests as is. But, it would also allow KCB$ the oppertunity to expand and start getting ad dollar$ from Suburbane Propane or Arlen Propane...

[kihrer]

Two Perspectives

Perspective One - Who Cares

KCBS competitions really come down to a box turned in to a group of judges who taste the food and rate it on a set of criteria. That criteria - presentation, tenderness, and taste - does not include any points for how hard you worked, how much you spent, or what equipment you used. Whether you use an FEC, Jambo, or WSM is not even known to the judges.

Taking the emotion out of it, what does gas bring to the table? Convenience to the cook as far as heat stability. To my knowledge it doesn't help with presentation, tenderness, or taste. A judge will not know if it has been cooked on gas, charcoal, pellets, strictly sticks or a combination of all (although if only gas were used I would hope they might miss the presence of smoke).

Perspective Two - Many Care

Putting the emotion back in to it, I can see how many would see this as an apostasy. For many years we have been railing against the gassers and their use of the word BBQ. The tradition, while it may not still lie on ground-dug pits, still requires a certain commitment by the pitmaster to watch over his pit and tend to his fire and put in the hours of sweat necessary to produce such a savory masterpiece from a humble cut of meat. Many still feel this way and believe we are cheating the tradition if all we have to do is season up our $150 wagu brisket throw it on a temp controlled cooker, party like hell till we're tired and then lumber off to sleep in our beds until the next morning. Anyone winning through lesser methods would not be held in esteem as a true pitmaster.

Final Musings

Some of us think stokers and gurus and pellets, and etc. etc. etc. are cheating the tradition. Some of us are somewhere in between and others don't care what is used and only look at the resulting product. I think there is room for all of us in KCBS. For those of us, like myself, who want to cook with sticks, we can do so. For those who want to use temp control, gas or whatever else, let them do so. The judges will decide who's BBQ is the winner based on presentation, tenderness, and taste. If you win using sticks, you can take a little extra pride knowing that you accomplished the feat sacrificing a little more of yourself than some of the other competitors. You can think back to how your father or grandfather tended his pit and managed his wood piles and taught you the art of being a pitmaster. KCBS is a big tent that has room for all of us.

[carlyle]

Ken,
Thanks for your well thought out post.

The idea that I like the best: "I think that there is room for all of us in KCBS".

That is my hope for this issue, no matter how it turns out - KCBS is big enough for everybody.

[Jacked UP BBQ]

That's really a straw man argument. :icon_shy

did I read what he said wrong? Honestly I couldn't really care if they allow it or not. It's very entertaining though to get people fired up over opinions!:laugh:

[Redheart]

did I read what he said wrong? Honestly I couldn't really care if they allow it or not. It's very entertaining though to get people fired up over opinions!:laugh:
Fired up with gas?:becky:

[moosesbbq]

Heat is heat. I'm not for the change but If it happens, oh well.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

We all seem to be hitting the bullseye of the wrong target. To my mind, the competition is competition BBQ is what is important. Propane is far too much of advantage for things like heat control/consistency than anything else. Aside from the saftey issue, which I think we all agree is paramount, just sayin.



A pellet pooper or a good insulated cooker with a guru on it will be just as consistent as a propane cooker. I don't see them as being much more of an advantage over whats currently allowed.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

That's really a straw man argument. :icon_shy

Like this one?

Anabolic steroids and Human Growth Hormone give athletes an edge, as well. I guess you are OK with those in baseball and football?

[Sawdustguy]

I just don't see any reason to get fired up about all of this. If using wood really makes better que, it should bear out in the results. IMHO, a contest is about the best turn-in whether it be from a gasser or wood burner.

[Pit Master Fraz]

I feel that if there's an extension cord hooked to it, it's cheatin !! Stick burner forever and always !!

[tmcmaster]

Like this one?
Similar, but not quite. Anything that gives an advantage... well, it GIVES AN ADVANTAGE. I think that is pretty clear. It's just a matter of how many and to whom those advantages are permitted. Does MLB know that steroids are used? Yup. Do they claim to test? Yup. Would anyone making over 100 million really be tested and risk killing the goose that lays the golden eggs? Hell no!

Like everything relating to large, national (or international) groups, I always try to 'follow the money.' Does KCB$ stand to make a mint by allowing gassers? Sure. Every backyard cook with a tank and a TV thinks they can outcook the 'big boys.' So, KCB$ signs up a few thousand more members, gets entries in contests up and has a brand new revenue stream. Not even mentioning all the merch they will sell to the new 'members' who want to impress the Jones' at the next neighborhood party in the cauldesac.

OK, I am switching to decaf...:tape:

[kurtsara]

I feel that if there's an extension cord hooked to it, it's cheatin !! Stick burner forever and always !!

Glad my cord is long enough on the traeger so I don't need no extension cord.:-D

[bover]

I've never used a propane smoker myself, but from what I understand the combustion of the gas in conjunction with the chips/pellets can impart a bacon-like flavor to the meats. If that ain't a competitive advantage, I don't know what is! :laugh:

[Jaskew82]

you may be right from a personal perspective but if you go to the KCBS website and read the About Us, Mission Statement and History page, no where does it talk about strictly wood cookery and what that encompasses. It only does this from a competition rules perspective...


Let's face it, someone with an entrepreneurial mindset and some $ could tap into the much larger market of propane cooks and replicate what KCBS has built... people will go to where the trends are and follow the $$.

Better to figure out a way to make it work and be inclusive (like the separate divisions), rather than go the way of the dinosaurs.

^^^^ What he said. :clap2::clap2:

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Similar, but not quite. Anything that gives an advantage... well, it GIVES AN ADVANTAGE. I think that is pretty clear. It's just a matter of how many and to whom those advantages are permitted. Does MLB know that steroids are used? Yup. Do they claim to test? Yup. Would anyone making over 100 million really be tested and risk killing the goose that lays the golden eggs? Hell no!

Like everything relating to large, national (or international) groups, I always try to 'follow the money.' Does KCB$ stand to make a mint by allowing gassers? Sure. Every backyard cook with a tank and a TV thinks they can outcook the 'big boys.' So, KCB$ signs up a few thousand more members, gets entries in contests up and has a brand new revenue stream. Not even mentioning all the merch they will sell to the new 'members' who want to impress the Jones' at the next neighborhood party in the cauldesac.

OK, I am switching to decaf...:tape:

How is the advantage of gas any different than a pellet cooker or an insulated cooker with a guru? You can argue a Jambo is a huge advantage over a DIY propane tank stick burner. There are already big advantages. I just don't see propane as any bigger advantage than what is already allowed. I don't ever plan on using propane but I don't see the advantage at all. People can use a microwave for all I care. So more members start showing up to contest seems to me thats a good thing. Purses would prob go up as well. I don't ever feel like somebody with better "equipment" is the reason I won or lost. It's never crossed my mind that somebody automatically had a head start because of what they cooked on or how nice of a trailer they have.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

I feel that if there's an extension cord hooked to it, it's cheatin !! Stick burner forever and always !!

It must eat you up at awards ceremonies seeing all those cheaters win. :)

[Podge]

Unless KCBS starts using criteria for how well you tend a fire all night long, how well you keep a consistent temperature in a stick burner and gave awards for that, there’s not really a point to argue, IMO. It's still just a meat contest.

[SirPorkaLot]

It must eat you up at awards ceremonies seeing all those cheaters win. :)

Nah. Us folks who share his opinion (and for the record I do).
We feel great about wherever us stckburners place, knowing the "cheaters" using electric feed, gurus, stokers, etc, are only cheating themselves out of true BBQ experience.

:becky:


I will continue to utilize methods I consider true BBQ (no gas, no electric, no pellets, etc) and be happy as heck to place anywhere but DAL.

[SirPorkaLot]

To evoke a good comparison.

NASCAR instituted all kind of new rules and cars for the sake of "progress and growth"

Between the "chase for the cup" and the "car of tomorrow", They have basically doomed NASCAR to be just another car race.

Their attendance, tv rights, etc have all declined since the advent of the NASCAR model of the future.

The old adage applies here.

If its not broke, don't fix it.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Nah. Us folks who share his opinion (and for the record I do).
We feel great about wherever us stckburners place, knowing the "cheaters" using electric feed, gurus, stokers, etc, are only cheating themselves out of true BBQ experience.

:becky:


I will continue to utilize methods I consider true BBQ (no gas, no electric, no pellets, etc) and be happy as heck to place anywhere but DAL.

I guess that's the difference. I'm not in it for the "BBQ Experience". I'm there to win and wouldn't keep doing it if I didn't. I can go hang out with my friends, drink and cook some "traditional bbq" for a lot cheaper than a weekend at BBQ contest. Anywhere near DAL and I'm going to be pretty pissed till the next contest. I quit racing cars and this hobby has filled in my need for competition. I guess that's why I don't care what everyone else cooks on. I want to cook the best food and don't care what my competitors are doing as long as its within the rules. If I don't do well I don't get mad at anyone but myself. I rarely even get mad at judge #6. I guess things would be easier if I screwed up and had a built in excuse as to why I didn't do well. If KCBS changes the rules I'll adapt. If KCBS adds style points for staying up all night I'll go buy a stick burner until then I'm going to work smarter not harder.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

The old adage applies here.

If its not broke, don't fix it.

That's the best part about not caring about what somebody else is cooking on. I don't care if they do or don't change the rules.

[Podge]

I don't consider a true BBQ experience dropping $800 to be in a contest and hope I finish well enough to recoup some/most of my money back. That there, to me, is a true BBQ competition experience.

[SirPorkaLot]

If I was in BBQ to make money it would be different.
I'm not.
I have never went to a completion feeling I had to win
I go hoping for a call, feel blessed if I get to walk and am never upset if I don't.

Some play golf, others have a boat, I spend my discretionary money of BBQ comps, cause I enjoy it.

No more, no less.

[Jorge]

To evoke a good comparison.

NASCAR instituted all kind of new rules and cars for the sake of "progress and growth"

Between the "chase for the cup" and the "car of tomorrow", They have basically doomed NASCAR to be just another car race.

Their attendance, tv rights, etc have all declined since the advent of the NASCAR model of the future.

The old adage applies here.

If its not broke, don't fix it.

You wanted NASCAR to remain, primarily, regional?

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

If I was in BBQ to make money it would be different.
I'm not.
I have never went to a completion feeling I had to win
I go hoping for a call, feel blessed if I get to walk and am never upset if I don't.

Some play golf, others have a boat, I spend my discretionary money of BBQ comps, cause I enjoy it.

No more, no less.

I would think a casual cook would care even less about electronics, pellets, or gas cookers. Who really cares if your just there to have a good time and blow some extra money? You would think the die hard guys that compete in 30-40 contest a year would be the most vocal. But really they are not. Don't you find that strange?

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

You wanted NASCAR to remain, primarily, regional?

Needs more formula one model. Global with innovation and technology. :)

If this was the NASCAR model we would all be restricted to the same cooker, meat, sauce, and rub so nobody would have an "advantage."

[lcbateman3]

When I first read this, I was against it, but didn't post anything.

So I started thinking on it. And really came up with it doesn't matter to me.

I cook on three WSM's. I've had good luck, I've had bad luck. I've competed against everything from your Walmart offset to Jambos to Pellet cookers. I have finished better than some, and had people finish better to me.

All comes down to me is the product that you turn in. Bad que is bad que. Period. Doesn't matter if it comes from gas, wood, charcoal, pellets, or uranium. (Okay, maybe not uranium).

So I say bring it on........

[SirPorkaLot]

You wanted NASCAR to remain, primarily, regional?

Not necessarily regional, but changes were made to make it more marketable to more people (which is where I drew my comparison), and in doing such has led to a decline in the sport, at least in my view.

[SirPorkaLot]

I would think a casual cook would care even less about electronics, pellets, or gas cookers. Who really cares if your just there to have a good time and blow some extra money? You would think the die hard guys that compete in 30-40 contest a year would be the most vocal. But really they are not. Don't you find that strange?

Aha, but that is the rub (pun intended
:becky: ).

I don't consider myself a casual cook, I consider myself a pitmaster, which also means I should be an advocate for BBQ in general.

KCBS is the biggest game in town for pitmasters to be able to pit (another well placed pun) their skills against others.

In the long run, will anything KCBS decide have any effect on how I cook?

No.

Doesn't make it any less of an important discussion though.

[SirPorkaLot]

Needs more formula one model. Global with innovation and technology. :)

If this was the NASCAR model we would all be restricted to the same cooker, meat, sauce, and rub so nobody would have an "advantage."

Now That is a contest series I would be all over. :becky:

[tmcmaster]

Now That is a contest series I would be all over. :becky:
HA! KCB$ would NEVER do that. They wouldn't make enough money on it!:mad2:

[smokeshowin]

A Fl. group called Bricks and Sticks BBQ is running contests that do not allow any electronics at all. Their contests are getting more teams at every event.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Aha, but that is the rub (pun intended
:becky: ).

I don't consider myself a casual cook, I consider myself a pitmaster, which also means I should be an advocate for BBQ in general.

KCBS is the biggest game in town for pitmasters to be able to pit (another well placed pun) their skills against others.


When I say casual cook I meant in the number of contest you compete in. To me if your doing 1-2 local KCBS comps a year and generally don't care whether you win, your a casual competition cook. I just don't see many in these threads railing against electronics, pellets, gas, etc. as regulars on the BBQ circuit. You want to label a large majority of real competitors as "cheaters" yet really you only come out once or twice a year and generally don't take it very seriously. If you don't do well you have the built in come back well I've been doing this for years so the only reason they won is they "cheated with (insert gadget here). It diminishes the accomplishments of those other cooks and looks pretty much like sour grapes. My guess is the number of comps the regulars put in to cooking COMPETITION style BBQ has a hell of a lot more to do with them winning than them "cheating" with the latest and greatest toy.

[RangerJ]

Yeah, I don't care if they do or they don't either. What is considered to be the best BBQ in the world by many is in Central Texas. No gas.

In most of the big cities you can find many chains all running gas fired SP's or Old Hickory's while yes, it's wood burning they are pretty much using gas. Either that or they are using the versions with the electric elements. I don't think I've ever seen a line at any of these places.

Now here is a sneak peek at the upcoming Texas Monthly cover here you will find Aaron Franklin and John Mueller on the cover.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss352/jurenax4/FranklinMueller.jpg

No gas used at their places and they have lines that wrap around city blocks. A fad, perhaps but the places around Lockhart have been doing it for a decades. While the gas fired chains come and go.

So based on this, I have to believe that my odds of outcooking someone who uses gas are actually pretty good.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Now That is a contest series I would be all over. :becky:

Who has the best garnish skills competition. :-D

[tmcmaster]

When I say casual cook I meant in the number of contest you compete in. To me if your doing 1-2 local KCBS comps a year and generally don't care whether you win, your a casual competition cook. I just don't see many in these threads railing against electronics, pellets, gas, etc. as regulars on the BBQ circuit. You want to label a large majority of real competitors as "cheaters" yet really you only come out once or twice a year and generally don't take it very seriously. If you don't do well you have the built in come back well I've been doing this for years so the only reason they won is they "cheated with (insert gadget here). It diminishes the accomplishments of those other cooks and looks pretty much like sour grapes. My guess is the number of comps the regulars put in to cooking COMPETITION style BBQ has a hell of a lot more to do with them winning than them "cheating" with the latest and greatest toy.
I do 10-12 a year, and started the Go Naked BBQ Show, which doesn't allow ANY electric of any kind (except to run the lights). And I rail against pellets and Guru's as cheating all the time.:icon_shy Does that make me a 'casual' cook?

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

I do 10-12 a year, and started the Go Naked BBQ Show, which doesn't allow ANY electric of any kind (except to run the lights). And I rail against pellets and Guru's as cheating all the time.:icon_shy Does that make me a 'casual' cook?

What's your team name again?

[SirPorkaLot]

When I say casual cook I meant in the number of contest you compete in. To me if your doing 1-2 local KCBS comps a year and generally don't care whether you win, your a casual competition cook. I just don't see many in these threads railing against electronics, pellets, gas, etc. as regulars on the BBQ circuit. You want to label a large majority of real competitors as "cheaters" yet really you only come out once or twice a year and generally don't take it very seriously. If you don't do well you have the built in come back well I've been doing this for years so the only reason they won is they "cheated with (insert gadget here). It diminishes the accomplishments of those other cooks and looks pretty much like sour grapes. My guess is the number of comps the regulars put in to cooking COMPETITION style BBQ has a hell of a lot more to do with them winning than them "cheating" with the latest and greatest toy.

Let's not confuse the issue.

When I say "cheating", I refer to taking shortcuts on making BBQ, not violating some KCBS rule.

I understand completely why it is done by a lot of teams.
If I had a luxurious motor coach to sleep in I wouldn't want to be out tending the fire all night in all sorts of weather either.

Heck gas makes it even easier, just hit the igniter button and make sure you have a full bottle, sleepy land here I come.

:becky:

To each their own.

[tmcmaster]

What's your team name again?
Porter Mac's Rockin BBQ
and
Hollywood N Swine.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

Porter Mac's Rockin BBQ
and
Hollywood N Swine.

You realize theres an online database that shows a teams comp history right? I think I''ll stand with my original statement.

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

You realize theres an online database that shows a teams comp history right? I think I''ll stand with my original statement.

am I missing your point?

[Lake Dogs]

I think his point is that competition cooks who cook more KCBS cookoffs dont seem to have a problem with it and that their opinion should weigh more heavily.

In this debate there are obvious gains to be had by approving gas and the negatives aren't so obvious (IMHO). We have some conjecture as to them, but truth be told we wont know whether it was a good thing for KCBS or not for a few years AFTER they approve it, IF they approve it.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

am I missing your point?

That both those teams haven't done 10-12 combined total much less 10-12 per year. Casual Cook who's mad he's not winning and it must me because the other teams "cheated."

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

I think his point is that competition cooks who cook more KCBS cookoffs dont seem to have a problem with it and that their opinion should weigh more heavily.

In this debate there are obvious gains to be had by approving gas and the negatives aren't so obvious (IMHO). We have some conjecture as to them, but truth be told we wont know whether it was a good thing for KCBS or not for a few years AFTER they approve it, IF they approve it.


Let me go ahead and also make this clear again. I don't care if gas is allowed. I don't even care if KCBS bans electronics. I'll cook on whatever rules they come up with. My problem is some people feel the need to diminish the accomplishments of others to make themselves feel good. Why work hard at getting better when you can just stand back and point out somebody is cheating?

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

That both those teams haven't done 10-12 combined total much less 10-12 per year. Casual Cook who's mad he's not winning and it must me because the other teams "cheated."

am I a causual cook? probably, do 6 a year. I choose my wife and daughter and work over cooking more. does that make my opinion any less valid?

its just a thought, your post seemed a little "smart a$$" to me.

now ill back off and let the smarter people fight this one out.

[Podge]

I do about 6 contests a year too. (sometimes up to 8, but plan on 6) I do not consider myself a casual cook. I take it very seriously and as a hard, challenging, competition. KCBS rules are the rules. If you abide by their rules you are not cheating. I do not understand why this discussion is happening? Unless KCBS says I cannot cook with my backwoods with a guru attached, I will continue to do so shamelessly. If they change the rules to allow gas, that’s fine by me, and if they change the rules to all stick burners, I’ll get one of those.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

am I a causual cook? probably, do 6 a year. I choose my wife and daughter and work over cooking more. does that make my opinion any less valid?

its just a thought, your post seemed a little "smart a$$" to me.

now ill back off and let the smarter people fight this one out.

I never said anyone's opinion matters more than anyone else's. I said the people usually railing against "cheaters" come out a couple times year. Many of those same people are looking for an excuse as to why they have won and "gadgets and toys" is usually the first thing they point to. Smart a$$ is one of the nicer things people use to describe me. :)

I get bent out of shape when I think of all the great cooks out there who have won championships, working their a$$ off to get where they are and then to have some guys who show up once or twice and want to try and discredit what they have done is BS. BTW the above mentioned group does not include me. I'm an average cook at best. I know how hard I work just to be average.

[Bourbon Barrel BBQ]

I do about 6 contests a year too. (sometimes up to 8, but plan on 6) I do not consider myself a casual cook. I take it very seriously and as a hard, challenging, competition. KCBS rules are the rules. If you abide by their rules you are not cheating. I do not understand why this discussion is happening? Unless KCBS says I cannot cook with my backwoods with a guru attached, I will continue to do so shamelessly. If they change the rules to allow gas, that’s fine by me, and if they change the rules to all stick burners, I’ll get one of those.

Podge I'm pretty sure World Champion and casual cook don't go in the same sentence. :)

[SirPorkaLot]

That both those teams haven't done 10-12 combined total much less 10-12 per year. Casual Cook who's mad he's not winning and it must me because the other teams "cheated."

Now now, no reason to get snippy.
You ate obviously confused once again.

This still have nothing to do with winning or losing, but the sanctity of BBQ itself.
I have no problems losing to, or beating teams with easy bake ovens (pellet poopers).
For you to dismiss a team's opinion because they don't cook as many contests a year as you do, shows that not only do you understand BBQ, but you have missed the whole point of this discussion.

Good day sir

[tmcmaster]

I never said anyone's opinion matters more than anyone else's.
No, That's absoluetly what you said. Specifically, YOURS is worth more than anyone.:thumb: And because I dodn't cook as much as you, my opinion is just 'sour grapes...
I said the people usually railing against "cheaters" come out a couple times year. Many of those same people are looking for an excuse as to why they have won and "gadgets and toys" is usually the first thing they point to. Smart a$$ is one of the nicer things people use to describe me. :)

I get bent out of shape when I think of all the great cooks out there who have won championships, working their a$$ off to get where they are and then to have some guys who show up once or twice and want to try and discredit what they have done is BS. BTW the above mentioned group does not include me. I'm an average cook at best. I know how hard I work just to be average.

I haven't won because I haven't given the judges what they wanted. But, I also cook the way I WANT to. I choose to be honest about BBQ and not use anything that eases the cooking process because I feel it is dishonorable to 'win at any cost.' But, clearly you don't suffer those same morals. And good for you. I certianly don't begrudge anyone for doing, what I consider cheating, if they are only in this to win. I have a good job to make my money. BBQ is a matter of pride to me. If I cook my way, turn in what I consider to be my best and finish DAL knowing I DID IT WITHOUT electric, then so be it.

KCB$ allowing gas is going to make money for the organization and the cooks that are already winning. But, it isn't going to do anything to celebrate, teach, preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form. It's going to make the checks bigger. If that's what you Q for, good for you.

[SirPorkaLot]

Podge I'm pretty sure World Champion and casual cook don't go in the same sentence. :)

??? You must be a frustrated champion BBQ cook, you sure seem to be flip flipping a bit.

Maybe one day we will end up at same contest, and when I walk and you don't, I'll be happy to give you some tips. :becky: