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Dex
08-13-2011, 03:45 AM
My Fire went out.... and I dont know when.

I started my smoke with 8 pork butts and 2 briskets. I was going to do 180 for 8 hours then finish at 250. (Cooking on a FEC-100)

I started last night, and went to bed with just over 5 hours left at 180. I set my alarm to go off when it was supposed to go up to 250 to make sure everything was ok.

When I got out there. My fire had gone out. And I am not sure long ago. The oven temp was at 150, and my fire pot was half full of pellets.

Internal temp of pork butts were in the 130s and the Internal temp of the briskets were upper 140s.

I got it fired up, but my biggest concern and main question is, is the food going to be ok?

Please respond ASAP... I may need to go get another load of meat if its bad. I'll be posting this on other forums in hope of getting the quickest response.

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 03:50 AM
I would get the temp up to 250 as soon as possible. Cooking at that low of a temp is dangerous because you are leaving the meat in the danger zone for so long. When the meat is at 160 it should be safe. Just make sure you get the meat to 160 as soon as possible.

Dex
08-13-2011, 03:56 AM
I would get the temp up to 250 as soon as possible. Cooking at that low of a temp is dangerous because you are leaving the meat in the danger zone for so long. When the meat is at 160 it should be safe. Just make sure you get the meat to 160 as soon as possible.

Doing a two stage smoke in a FEC-100 is common to alter the smoke profile of the meat. My concern is the current internal temps of the meat and how long they have been there. I'm at 250 now, and like I mentioned above, never fell below 150.

I just need to know if my meat is still salvageable or if I need to trash it.

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 03:59 AM
No you don't need to trash it. As long the meat gets above 160 it will kill anything that might have developed.

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:04 AM
No you don't need to trash it. As long the meat gets above 160 it will kill anything that might have developed.

Do you think the quality of the end product will be any different?

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:09 AM
I don't think it will be much different. Like you said you usually do a two stage smoke. I don't think your fire was out for very long. The FEC is insulated, right?

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:11 AM
I don't think it will be much different. Like you said you usually do a two stage smoke. I don't think your fire was out for very long. The FEC is insulated, right?

Yeah, and it was still warm. It read 150 in the smoker, but the pork butts were only in the 130s

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
08-13-2011, 04:11 AM
Most of us don't do such a low temp first stage for so long, which sounds like a long time in the danger zone all by itself, but that in combination with the unknown time that the fire was out, sure sounds iffy.

If it were me, I wouldn't chance it. Easy for me to say since I don't have a couple of hundred of dollars of meat at stake.

Do you have time to get and cook another load?

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:13 AM
Most of us don't do such a low temp first stage for so long, which sounds like a long time in the danger zone all by itself, but that in combination with the unknown time that the fire was out, sure sounds iffy.

If it were me, I wouldn't chance it. Easy for me to say since I don't have a couple of hundred of dollars of meat at stake.

Do you have time to get and cook another load?

I do... but it would be close

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
08-13-2011, 04:13 AM
Pyle sure has more experience than I do. I would trust his advice on this more than mine.

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:21 AM
I do have a question. What do you mean by altering the smoke profile in the meat. From everything I have read, meat stops accepting smoke at 120*. Are you trying to get more smoke into the meat by keeping it at a lower temp for so long?

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:25 AM
I do have a question. What do you mean by altering the smoke profile in the meat. From everything I have read, meat stops accepting smoke at 120*. Are you trying to get more smoke into the meat by keeping it at a lower temp for so long?

Yes. The FEC-100 burns so clean that the the smoke taste isn't as strong as a stick burner or other smokers that use chunks of wood.

Doing a two stage cooks exposes the meat to smoke longer as it warms up. The FEC also smokes more at lower temps as well.

Fast Eddy himself does the 180 for 8 hours then finishes at 250 in his competition cooking.

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:30 AM
Do you know what your temps at the end of 8 hours is?

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:31 AM
Do you know what your temps at the end of 8 hours is?

Internal temps of the meat?

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:32 AM
Yes, sorry.

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:34 AM
the butts were around 137 or so and the briskets were in the upper 140s

Butts are now in the 140s and briskets in the 150s

SmokinAussie
08-13-2011, 04:35 AM
You are fine. Keep going. If you trash the meat I'll be so p!ssed off with you....

This is a topic that comes up every few months, and usually, the guy with the problem tosses out perfectly good meat because they have asked the forum what to do, and people with no understanding of bacteriology and meat processing methods tell you to throw it out... you know... better to be safe that sorry...:crazy:

You are FINE. Keep GOING!

Cheers!

Bill

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:37 AM
Sorry for not making this clear. I was wanting to know what the internal temp of the meat is during a normal cook where the fire does not go out.

Bill, I am with you on that.

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:38 AM
You are fine. Keep going. If you trash the meat I'll be so p!ssed off with you....

This is a topic that comes up every few months, and usually, the guy with the problem tosses out perfectly good meat because they have asked the forum what to do, and people with no understanding of bacteriology and meat processing methods tell you to throw it out... you know... better to be safe that sorry...:crazy:

You are FINE. Keep GOING!

Cheers!

Bill

Thanks Bill. Do you think the quality of my end product will be just as good as it would have been if I didn't have the fire go out?

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:39 AM
Sorry for not making this clear. I was wanting to know what the internal temp of the meat is during a normal cook where the fire does not go out.

Bill, I am with you on that.

At the 8 hour mark? I'm not really sure... I cant say I have never paid much attention if the fire is still going strong!

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:44 AM
The reason I ask, is that I was trying to determine how long the fire had been out. If you knew the temps we could get an estimate as to how long the fire had been out. Your next cook I would try to find this out. That way you will have some idea on how far behind you are in a cook.

Dex
08-13-2011, 04:49 AM
The reason I ask, is that I was trying to determine how long the fire had been out. If you knew the temps we could get an estimate as to how long the fire had been out. Your next cook I would try to find this out. That way you will have some idea on how far behind you are in a cook.

The more I think about it, I dont think it could have been out too long.

The FEC has a internal temp probe that detects the cooking temp. When it is low, the auger feeds pellets quicker to fuel the fire.

The reason I say I don't think it could have been long is because the fire pot was just over half full (and the pot isnt that big.) I would assume as the temp dropped the auger would have been spitting out pellets quicker trying to feed the fire.... meaning it wouldnt have taken long at all to fill it half way up.

Just checked the meats with my thermapen. Pork butts in the upper 150s and brikets in the mid 160s

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 04:54 AM
Well good luck. I don't believe you will have any quality issues. Post picture in the morning.

daedalus
08-13-2011, 04:55 AM
I would be fairly concerned. While It is true that getting the meat up over 165 will kill any living bacteria that may have developed, but that is not the entire issue. Part of what causes food poisoning is what the bacteria leaves behind while it is active. That does not go away once the temp comes up. If it did, then no one would ever get food poisoning from fully cooked meat, and that is not the case. That is why there are time related guidelines for the danger zone. If it is in the zone for only a little while(under 2 hours...ish) any nasty bacteria will not typically have had time to do enough damage to be a huge issue. Once you kill off the live stuff, you are ok. If is longer than that though, it becomes a major concern because there may be too much residual damage.
I hate to tell you to throw it all out and start over, but I think you have to ask yourself an important question. Which way do you want to be wrong? If you start over, you are out money and time. If you roll the dice and there is a problem, you make a bunch of people sick...maybe even really sick.
I don't envy your position. Good Luck!

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 05:03 AM
I would be fairly concerned. While It is true that getting the meat up over 165 will kill any living bacteria that may have developed, but that is not the entire issue. Part of what causes food poisoning is what the bacteria leaves behind while it is active. That does not go away once the temp comes up. If it did, then no one would ever get food poisoning from fully cooked meat, and that is not the case. That is why there are time related guidelines for the danger zone. If it is in the zone for only a little while(under 2 hours...ish) any nasty bacteria will not typically have had time to do enough damage to be a huge issue. Once you kill off the live stuff, you are ok. If is longer than that though, it becomes a major concern because there may be too much residual damage.
I hate to tell you to throw it all out and start over, but I think you have to ask yourself an important question. Which way do you want to be wrong? If you start over, you are out money and time. If you roll the dice and there is a problem, you make a bunch of people sick...maybe even really sick.
I don't envy your position. Good Luck!

How long do you think the brisket and pork butts sit in the danger zone while cooking on a regular smoker. If I am cooking a butt for 10 hours and it takes 4 of those hours to get it to 160*, don't you think that the butt is in the danger zone for more than 2 hours?

Dex
08-13-2011, 05:12 AM
I honestly think my fire was out for only 10 minutes. When I went out to check on it, the controller said it had been in "hold mode" for 10 minutes.

If you arent familiar with the FEC-100, you can set it to cook for a certain amount of time at a certain temp, then it will hold at a temp you have programmed... which mine was 250.

I must have done something wrong while setting the hold temp, or thats when the fire went out is when it started to dump more pellets to raise the temp. The reason I am thinking it had only been ten minutes is because like I mentioned before, thats how long ago the temp was supposed to change, and the fire pot isnt that big and was only half full.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/ndexter/DSC00661.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/ndexter/DSC00667.jpg

daedalus
08-13-2011, 05:17 AM
How long do you think the brisket and pork butts sit in the danger zone while cooking on a regular smoker. If I am cooking a butt for 10 hours and it takes 4 of those hours to get it to 160*, don't you think that the butt is in the danger zone for more than 2 hours?
That is an excellent point. I will have to think about that one. But how do you explain the fact that it is possible to get food poisoning from meat that has been fully cooked. If all you have to do to avoid that is get meat up over a certain temp, then I would think that getting sick from food would be a lot less prevalent. I am not trying to be argumentative...I seriously want your opinion.

rondini
08-13-2011, 05:25 AM
If it was me I'd keep cooking. Then again thats why I have a UDS so I don't have to mess with timers and augers and electricity and stuff.

daedalus, from everything I've heard and read it's not the cooked meat as much as how it was handeled, by whom, with what, where placed etc.

Pyle's BBQ
08-13-2011, 05:26 AM
That is an excellent point. I will have to think about that one. But how do you explain the fact that it is possible to get food poisoning from meat that has been fully cooked. If all you have to do to avoid that is get meat up over a certain temp, then I would think that getting sick from food would be a lot less prevalent. I am not trying to be argumentative...I seriously want your opinion.

That would come from improper handling after cooking. In the cooling or the reheating process is when that is most likely to occur.

daedalus
08-13-2011, 05:38 AM
That would come from improper handling after cooking. In the cooling or the reheating process is when that is most likely to occur.
Agreed, but then why are there health regulations relating to raw meat. Most of the information that I have read says that you should not leave meat out at room temperature for over 2 hours. By following your logic, it sounds like you are saying that doesn't matter how long you leave out raw meat as long as you plan to cook it to 160 degrees, and then make sure you handle it properly after it is cooked?

Dex,
I am glad that you only lost fire for a few minutes brother! :thumb:

SmokinAussie
08-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Thanks Bill. Do you think the quality of my end product will be just as good as it would have been if I didn't have the fire go out?

I don't see any reason why not!

Johnny_Crunch
08-13-2011, 09:31 PM
Anyone vomiting or dead yet? :-P

El Ropo
08-13-2011, 09:56 PM
I don't care for the temps you were shooting for with that much food in the cooker. If it were me, I would of started out at around 250 for first hour, then ramped up the heat to 300ish to finish. Low and slow isn't the holy grail.

I like to sleep. Smoking low and slow is a waste of valuable sleeping hours. Smoking at a higher temp makes the end result more moist, with less time hanging around the smoker.

IMO low and slow creates an opportunity to dry out the meat. Hot and fast is the ticket for me. It will also get the meat into the "safe range" faster.

VaGriller
08-14-2011, 08:06 PM
In the 130s after 8 hours? It probably didn't get out of the danger zone for 10+ total hours. I would have tossed it, especially with you vending it. Not worth the chance of making customers sick first time out.

Pyle's BBQ
08-14-2011, 10:22 PM
In the 130s after 8 hours? It probably didn't get out of the danger zone for 10+ total hours. I would have tossed it, especially with you vending it. Not worth the chance of making customers sick first time out.

He said this is the way he always cooks this way. He didn't know what his temp of the meat is after 8 hours.

Just for reference, here is a thread that a Stoker was used to track the meat temp. As you can see the meat was in the danger zone for more than three hours.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100668&highlight=stoker

VaGriller
08-14-2011, 10:43 PM
He said this is the way he always cooks this way. He didn't know what his temp of the meat is after 8 hours.

Just for reference, here is a thread that a Stoker was used to track the meat temp. As you can see the meat was in the danger zone for more than three hours.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100668&highlight=stoker


He said above that the meat temp was in the 130s after 8 hours. So it sat in the danger zone for at least 9 hours.

SmokinAussie
08-14-2011, 11:02 PM
This "DANGER ZONE" rubbish is indeed that. A load of rubbish.

It refers to the SURFACE of the meat... Not the IT. If you are cooking a large cut of meat like this, you will ALWAYS have the IT in the "DANGER ZONE" for over 2 hours.

Please make more of an effort to understand the intent of the proper regulations on this. The INSIDE of the meat is STERILE, so there is no issue. If there was, you'd never be able to cook ANYTHING low and slow.

The external surface of the meat is the ONLY place where bacteria could grow, and they are killed by the smoker temperature.

The ONLY other way you can introduce a bacteria during a stall is to OPEN the cooker and introduce a bacterial strain. That is called "THE VECTOR".

If there is no VECTOR, then there can be no contamination.

Honestly people.... Spontaneous Generation does NOT EXIST!..

Please do not tell people to throw out perfectly good meat after a 10 minute stall...

Please do some further research before quoting this "DANGER ZONE" tripe....

Even a 2 hour stall, or a 4 hour stall... is STILL FINE.

Cheers!

Bill

SmokinAussie
08-14-2011, 11:04 PM
And DON'T get me going about bloody Botulism.....:mad2:

El Ropo
08-14-2011, 11:11 PM
He said above that the meat temp was in the 130s after 8 hours. So it sat in the danger zone for at least 9 hours.

That is what scares me. That just seems like an awfully long time between 40 and 140. Maybe 180 for one hour, then bump it up, but 8 hours?

Also, I was under the impression that meat never stops accepting smoke, but the smoke ring stops forming at around 140.

VaGriller
08-14-2011, 11:12 PM
And DON'T get me going about bloody Botulism.....:mad2:

I'll keep it simple since you told me to research it before I spread wrong info. Please cite your scientific research and case studies to settle this debate once and for all. Then the mods can sticky this thread and we'll never have to see this question again!

Thanks!

Pyle's BBQ
08-14-2011, 11:12 PM
And DON'T get me going about bloody Botulism.....:mad2:

Which part. The temp you need to cook to or whether it still exists in the modern pig.

Bananachipz
08-14-2011, 11:17 PM
You're confusing botulism with trichenosis (sp?).

Sent from my SGH-i917R using Board Express

Pyle's BBQ
08-14-2011, 11:28 PM
You're confusing botulism with trichenosis (sp?).

Sent from my SGH-i917R using Board Express

Sorry, yes I am. I have that problem sometimes. But that is why pork was always cooked to 165.

Bananachipz
08-14-2011, 11:33 PM
The inside of the meat may not be sterile..Do you know who handled it? Did they poke it with a contaminated probe or knife (introducing bacteria internally)?

Everytime I've cooked butts or brisket it's hit 140 before the 2 hour mark (250deg pit). I've had fires go out and have been forced to throw out some expensive meat, however my family's health is far more important than a few $ and bravado.




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Bananachipz
08-14-2011, 11:38 PM
Sorry, yes I am. I have that problem sometimes. But that is why pork was always cooked to 165.

Right..Botulism is usually seen in preserved foods these days (improper canning, preserving etc). In its case, the bacteria itself is killed in cooking, however the toxins remain; It's the toxins that kill you.





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SmokinAussie
08-15-2011, 01:06 AM
I'll keep it simple since you told me to research it before I spread wrong info. Please cite your scientific research and case studies to settle this debate once and for all. Then the mods can sticky this thread and we'll never have to see this question again!

Thanks!

Start here... (http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Foodborne_Illness_&_Disease_Fact_Sheets/index.asp)hours of fun reading...

The thing is to have an understanding of bacterial transmission itself before going on to basic food prep etc. Another thing is this documention is made simple to cover as much innocent misunderstanding as possible, so that even if someone does make a mistake, its not going to result in mass extinction. I think a lot of the misunderstanding just comes from the fact that people read the big headings and don't pay a lot of attention to the detail and the science.

If you want more information, I am sure you can Google further scientific papers.

Hope this helps. I don't think this will make it to a sticky though. There will always be someone asking these questions. Perhaps I should not have been so aggressive in this thread... it just seriously p!sses me off when people throw out perfectly good meat because they say "It's better to be safe than sorry" but they don't know what safe IS.

Cheers!

Bill

VaGriller
08-15-2011, 06:29 AM
Start here... (http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Foodborne_Illness_&_Disease_Fact_Sheets/index.asp)hours of fun reading...

The thing is to have an understanding of bacterial transmission itself before going on to basic food prep etc. Another thing is this documention is made simple to cover as much innocent misunderstanding as possible, so that even if someone does make a mistake, its not going to result in mass extinction. I think a lot of the misunderstanding just comes from the fact that people read the big headings and don't pay a lot of attention to the detail and the science.

If you want more information, I am sure you can Google further scientific papers.

Hope this helps. I don't think this will make it to a sticky though. There will always be someone asking these questions. Perhaps I should not have been so aggressive in this thread... it just seriously p!sses me off when people throw out perfectly good meat because they say "It's better to be safe than sorry" but they don't know what safe IS.

Cheers!

Bill

I'm not reading that, I didn't ask for an encyclopedia with and a note that says read it yourself. Post links to your scientific foundings that paying consumers of pork cooked like that have ZERO, yes, ZERO chance of getting food poisoning. Factoring in inproper handling by the butcher, injecting meat while uncooked enabling any outside toxins to reach the inside steril area of the meat, and temp checking the meat while being cooked enabling any outside toxins to reach the inside.

Good 'day mate.

Bananachipz
08-15-2011, 07:11 AM
Sorry Aussie, still have to disagree. VAGriller is bang on... You can tell the mother of the child who gets sick that it p!sses you off to throw out meat. BBQ has a lower margin of error than other cooking methods due to the low and slow temps. One needs to respect that. Any food safety article or study will conquer. There's a reason "better safe than sorry" is an adage; Hundreds of years of people learning the hard way!

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Dex
08-15-2011, 07:35 AM
Hey guys... for what its worth everything turned out great. My fire wasn't out nearly as long as I had originally thought. I ate plenty of it along with many family and friends with no issues. Actually, the brisket was probably some of the best I have ever had!

I got lucky this time. I need to pay a little better attention next time. Even more so with this being a new smoker that I don't have much experience with.

Thanks for your help guys!