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View Full Version : The Taboo of Simmering - Jetton and Legends of Texas BBQ


Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Chapter 9: The Legends of Texas BBQ, Tradition and the Audacity of the Shortcut




NOTHING FUNKY ‘BOUT THIS


This started as a diversion about the book, Texas BBQ, Walsh and Jetton. I release it due to a thread about Oil workers and pits in a forum discussion at the BBQ Brethren.


Disclaimer:


I have wanted to talk about this and offer it for discussion and think it needs separate thread. I will hopefully link it from time to time along with other discussions and post whenever we enter into arguments over tradition and whose BBQ is "better."



It is a critical essay on Rob Walsh's excellent research on Jetton but also how he has fallen prey to the faults of primary documents. Those of you educated in History or some other discipline that uses critical thinking will see it as a critique. For those of you not attune to the study of history and critical thinking "critical" does not mean I am taking shots at someone, just analyzing a mistake they have made and explaining how an author has unknowingly erred. In addition, when publishing a book you are also at the mercy of your publisher and thus any alternative theories or explanations could be omitted against your will.


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Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook, by Robb Walsh

I LOVE this book. I like Walsh's work (my favorite) but on page 33 there is an unintended error. I realize he misstated the time period Jetton actually cooked the meat on the fire as 18 to 24 hours. He did this probably because Jetton's stupid cookbook made adjustments to his recipes for reasons of accessibility and is now considered an historic primary document as to how he did trail Q as the countries first official pit master. The book was published in the 60's and gave the impression that his BBQ was cooked that long. Magazine articles from the time period are no help either. Also I will explain below what often DID get cooked that long - but was rarely eaten entirely at the event. Pay close attention, and I will give you probably the most closely guarded secret I have – one that someone used once and holds a trophy for from over a decade ago yet was illegal to use, and now, maybe not so illegal. Yes, this means several of us know someone “should” return the trophy. But I, for one ain’t a snitch that way.


The Titanic, Metacognition, Popular Consensus, Source Data and the Myths they can be Based on.

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First let me give a small lesson in the metacoginitive (thinking about how you think) principles of History and how Walsh, through a trick in history, could have gotten to this point. I cite the sinking of the Titanic and the fact it broke in half (as discovered in the 80’s) and why for nearly 70 years it was thought it sunk in one piece. The truth of the matter was many actually SAW the Titanic break in half but the inquiries held in America and England chose not to focus on the ones that made this claim because the interests of the governments and the businesses that were entangled with them governed how the questions were asked.

The Titanic was a British REGISTERED ship BUT OWNED WHOLELY by the International Mercantile Marine of the American Financier J. Pierpont Morgan. As we all know it sunk after running into an iceberg in April 1912. It was insured by Lloyd’s of London. If the ship was known to have broken in half and sunk it would have been seen as “defective” and coupled with the mistakes committed by the shipping line in terms of navigation, as well as the obvious inadequacies of the British Board of Trade (which deemed it perfectly acceptable to only have a fraction of lifeboats aboard) then all hell would have broken loose.

The huge amounts of public confidence in British and Irish Shipbuilding, as well as one of Britain’s (and American) shipping companies would have been destroyed. Simply put, Lloyd would cover fully acts of God not negligence or Harland and Wolfe’s Shipyard’s defect in design. The official result placed more blame on Nature and a few personalities such as the owner of the line, the Captain (who was dead) and the Californian, a ship that was a mere 10 miles away, whose radio operator was asleep and whose crew saw the rockets and did not respond. Even Walter Lord Himself, who wrote the first great study of the Titanic disaster, Night to Remember, fell into the trap as he interviewed survivors and ignored claims that it broke in two by suggesting it was things that slid down in the ship towards the bow that made that horrible noise. In the 1980s the Titanic was found in two pieces and further scientific study confirmed it broke in two on the surface. Nearly every book about it written before got it wrong. In addition, in the authors’ zeal to tell their story, the controversy of opening up that issue was ignored. However, buried in the official Inquiries testimony is the evidence and even drawings by a Jack Thayer of the liner breaking in two. By 1913, though, the myth was cast.



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Jack Thayer's Drawing of a Split Titanic (1912)


In history (I have a B.A in History) we come across these kinds of mistakes all the time. Often we perpetuate it by further adding to the folklore by citing works written in the past as the gospel. This is why history at times must be REVISED. Historical revision is not the boogey man Newt made it out to be in the 1990’s. New evidence is found or new explanations are given. In addition, one has to remember the climate things are written in.

Taboo One - Just tell me what's in it dammit! What? No way! That’s in it? – Are you ****ting me!

We often are fully aware that how a person REALLY cooks and how what is placed online or in a book can differ. I think I cited once before what REALLY went into Mikiskas sauce and rub on a Bobby Flay VIDEO show once was ENTIRELY different from what was posted as the recipe on the Food TV cite.

Once I was asked to make my Baked Beans because they were so good. When I told the lady what was in them (one pound of Brown Sugar to each number 10 can after it was drained) she balked and refused to let me make them that way, even though moments before she had loved them. Now, all of the sudden they were too sweet.

Health concerns, rules, taboos, and making the recipe accessible to the chef at home are all taken into consideration. This is one reason why Jetton’s own 1965 cookbook can be misleading.



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The Cookbook in Question


Taboo Two - True Mop STOCK A delicious Shortcut

As someone who saw Jetton's Family Business (before it shut down for good) actually do a cookout for my grandfather's Company (Texas Electric Service Company) in 1972 (yes, after he died) and who was befriended as a little guy by his Mexican pit master apprentice (then the master after Jetton died), and who still has contacts with his family, I personally know that Jetton, who used to cook whole quarters and simmered them in a ROBUST stock first before he grilled them slowly over that fire, did nothing different when he switched to briskets round about the time of the end of the Mercury program.

Taboo Three – They have been out there doing something for Damn near a day! But why can't I Eat off this Side of Beef Again?

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Jetton and his Spit

The ONLY thing Jetton cooked anywhere near that long was the trademark side of beef on a spit he used and that was for show mostly. Later it would be broken down into usable chunks of beef after the premium cuts which could be served more rare were given up.

The Pits ACTUALLY TOOK DAMN NEAR a good 10 hours to both dig and get right. For instance, the pit was 3-4 feet deep (varied due to total number of people and water table as in the case of were I live - near Nasa in Houston) and stacked to the top with wood. When that burned down to coals he was ready to cook on it. BY coals I mean not a lick of fire or unburned wood anywhere. Kerosene and pallet pieces were used to light it. YEP!

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Typical Pit (Not Jettons)


The ILLUSION was that they had been COOKING from the night before when in actuality they had been prepping and cooking for all that time. From the payer's standpoint they could give a chit how it was made, they just saw SOMEONE toiling for a day from digging the pit to serving it up. From the eaters’ point of view - well who cared?


The party I was at was at Trinity Park in Fort Worth. My grandfather was VP of Texas Electric. For a BIG party (like 500 or more) where a side of beef was not practical, the way it went down was this. The pit was dug, wood was stacked into the pit above the ground level, fire was lit and at some point in time huge pots were placed over the fire and filled with water, salt, lots of pepper, lots of Bay Leaves, bones and whatever scullery items they had left (onion peels, celery scraps, garlic pods and such.)


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Typical Grubby Dirty Mop

Quarters first then briskets were put on if he was doing any. These were simmered covered until the beef was pretty much done but had a way to go for tenderness. This process is identical to the trailheads process. In fact, on a trail, the cook would merely simmer the cuts in the same type of flavorful concoction then actually just set it aside. When the hands got to the camp CEDAR (anyone who KNOWS where the trail is knows what wood is indigenous to the area) was placed on the fire and the meat was placed on to heat up quickly. Yes Cedar. Think of the properties you know of burning cedar and you will see how it can be used to flavor meat quickly.

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Jetton with a HALF a brisket?



Back to Jetton, I imagine the natural next shortcut was he may have also just added the powdered items shown in his Mop recipe on Page 141 to impregnate the meat with his flavor and as a shortcut but I cannot confirm. If not he added it when he was through simmering the cuts.

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Same Shot as above but left - What do you Simmer it in Again?

People always say simmering is stupid because you remove the flavor from the meat and put it in the stock. Sure, when it’s just water. I always laugh at this assumption because in using linear logic when we apply this rule to marinades no one offers up the difference between placing meat to marinade in water (which I oddly enough do with my vacuumed pork tenderloins) and how it is the same as marinating in say, soy sauce. But the “simmering” taboo seems to escape the importance and delineation of what is actually IN the liquid. In Jetton’s case, it is not so when you throw meat in a stock already made from bones and a load of other flavors. PLUS, as you go, the stock gets more flavorful. Now imagine mopping a pre impregnated with flavor cut of beef with this chit as it builds a bark and caramelizes for about as long as it takes to smoke a set of spares over the coals. Imagine!


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Foil

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Injections

Taboo Four - The Audacity of the Shortcut

The ribs were shortly simmered (maybe 12 minutes) SOMETIMES and all cuts were seasoned and put on a few hours before the arrival. When people arrived they were usually greeted by Jetton on a meticulously decorated and delicious looking half of beef on a spit, hundreds of pounds of meat on the pit and workers tending the flare ups (that was my job I got as the grandson of the guy paying for the BBQ) and a pit master flipping the meats and another mopping the cuts with the contents of the incredible mop which was made of the beef stock he just USED (to which simmering the bones AND the meats in for quite a while served to make even more robust) was modified with the seasoning you see on Page 141 of the Walsh Book. I will also note the mop in the book lacks lemon halves.

The truth is - all some of us have actually done over these last couple of decades has been trying to emulate THAT flavor with the apparatus we use today and do this within a certain set of rules given to us by the internet. Foiling, for instance, is nothing but merely braising the meat in its already quite robust collection of flavors – of course part of braising is merely simmering in a closed environment – the simmering liquid ends up as a collection of the beef drippings, your rub, the smoke and results of the maillard reaction.

WE have seen on the brethren confirmation that at even the famous Salt Lick in Austin tradition is circumnavigated by pit oven the cuts before hand and placing them on the age old pit in the dinning facility for Show and to apply that special mop and bark to their modern pre-smoked cuts.

Smoke a set of spares at 300 without wrapping or mopping and you get a juicy set of ribs. Lower that temp to 225 and typically you get a dried out set unless you 3-2-1 it. But now the bark is sacrificed? What to do? Pass the sugar. A shortcut is born. Not to say it’s a bad thing – just another way.

Add to that the INTERNET driven taboo that claims simmering meat as “untraditional” when the TRUE story is MANY different people (ONCE BBQ BECAME A BUSINESS OR A WAY TO FEED TRAILHANDS AT THE END OF A RIDE) sought these shortcuts which often exceeded the flavor of NOT using them. This drive is WHY WE INJECT; to add flavor and retain moisture. Funny how something as traditional as simmering meat in a pot can be seen as untraditional while picking up a syringe and placing canned or powdered ingredients into the cut is not. Perhaps it is because KCBS and other Orgs forbid it. Oh, I am THIS close to telling the whole world about my secret injection. But this paragraph is dedicated to the poster who may want to defend that their regional style was never simmered. This can also be true. But may I remind you that if it were not for shortcuts or alternative methods there would be no VINEGAR PIE!


Taboo Five - Shortcuts can be a delicious Natural Progression of Cooking at times

Jetton followed the same path as many of us old smokers do when serving lots of people. I don't want to say we “cut corners,” as that denotes reduction in quality. But when you are paying labor or stacking up the jobs you need to get in and out, yet still create a good impression. You have to make adjustments. I used to make my mashed potatoes al naturale. Now, I make my mashed potatoes with half instant and the other half boiled potatoes with skins on. The instructions call for boiled water so I just make the whole dish better by boiling water with potatoes already in it and mash them up and add. People think I spent all day. Jetton was the same as he got older. He started at a time when he could get cheap labor and there was no way to just buy 300 brisket flats. As times changed, labor laws enforced, health codes were enforced and business took off he took advantage of the advances in meat packing logistics by using brisket for the dough (self basting and cheap) and the rustic cuts for the show.

What is so sad here is that we are so discriminatory about "simmering" cuts that no one even DARES mention it online for fear of vehement ridicule or calling into question their expertise on anything else. Truth be told, the party goers never knew (or cared) about where the MOP came from really or how the process went on. I guarantee to you, if you were ever fortunate enough to be at one of these WHERE IT WAS SIMMERED - your jaw would fall to the floor. Of course, not even the reenactments each year in Fredricksburg get this little thing right, even though they know it happened. Too many people would flip out.

Finally, I would like to bring in some of the observations from another book by the Legend, Mike Mills. In his travels across the US looking for great Que he humorously pokes fun at us in his chapter, BBQ Police. He also tells a story about trying to have test kitchens make his grandmother famous and illusive potato salad only to find she copied it from the mayonaisse jar. I would like to mention that some of the great Q he tasted broke the “rules.” For instance, years ago Myron’s injection would be seen as taboo, Gonzales Market’s Pan Fried (essentially) BBQ beef ribs is regarded as “stellar: in both our views but not traditional, Kreuz’s clod or brisket is anything but low and slow, three barbecue barons inside list their sauces as being vinegar, mayonnaise or mustard based (not commonly accepted in most every other region where tomato is king and that’s damn near everywhere). We have one guy who smokes his brisket, wraps them in plastic, chills them and then reheats in the oven in plastic to force the flavor and juices IN and one old guy who smokes, foils, chills, then reasons and DEEP FRYS his ribs to order. Hmm, it seems like SOMEBODY’s tradition could be another person’s taboo but it sure might be tasty.


So – about that brisket injection….

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 07:31 PM
Stan41 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/member.php?u=6325) wrote in the original thread this brilliant recall

When I was a kid (I'm 68 now) Me and my family always attended the annual meeting of the San Saba Production Credit Association held at San Saba, Texas in a grove of pecan trees. In the early days of this meeting (early 1950's) the men of the association cooked the barbecue. They started the day before by digging a pit about 5 ft. wide and 20 ft. long. They filled this pit with wood and set it on fire. Meanwhile while it was burning down to coals they boiled shoulder clods, (brisket was rarely barbecued in those days) in washpots out beside the pits. After the fire had burned down to coals they placed steel rods across the pit and stretched net wire fencing over them. Sometime during the night they took the shoulder clods out of the washpots and using pitchforks put them on the net wire, turning them occasionally with the pitchforks. They were ready to eat by lunch the next day. Outside those shoulder clods were black as the ace of spades, but tender and very juicy inside. Delicious!

After a few years of this they hired Walter Jetton and his crew to come from Ft. Worth and cater the event. The morning of the meeting Jetton & Co. came with a trailer truck and van. They had the BBQ already cooked when they got there and kept it hot en route. They also had the potato salad and other goodies done when they arrived. It too was delicious, but I don't remember it being as good as those shoulder clods cooked by the men of the association.

Stan

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 07:33 PM
See the other posts from the original thread here 84 (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=75441).

See who says what.

Unless you haven't noticed... this new thread has pron again

chad
07-03-2011, 07:36 PM
Nice job.

jestridge
07-03-2011, 07:40 PM
I have been doing brisket/clod that way they always turn out great. But I simmer my in a dutch oven with Aujus base.

bigabyte
07-03-2011, 08:46 PM
Very cool and thanks for sharing.

Any chance at getting a recipe? You know, the method from beginning to end. Just curious.

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 09:07 PM
Heck I don't do it this way... I'm not stupid! LOL And if I did I wouldn't tell people how in any code... I can see it one day when I am back in biz again.... "Hey, here it is... his recipe... he boils the brisket first..."

LOL

HOWEVER This was sort of how he "admitted" he did it on paper.

Brisket


1 beef brisket
2 quarts bone stock
3 bay leaves
salt and pepper

Preparation:
This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she sometimes buys it as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, it's delicious. Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let it simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about every half hour until it's done. (This can be determined by forking). Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in.


Jetton's Rib Rub was

Yield: Makes about 1 cup
Ingredients:


6 tablespoons salt
6 tablespoons sugar
2 1/2 tablespoons black pepper
2 tablespoons MSG (optional)
1 tablespoon dry lemon powder
1 tablespoon paprika

Poultry was



6 tablespoons salt
3 tablespoons black pepper
2 tablespoons MSG
2 tablespoons garlic powder
ground bay leaves
2 tablespoons dry mustard

His BBQ Sauce was (beware, if your not into Texas sauces this is very acidic)



1 1/2 cups water
1 cup ketchup
1/2 cup cider vinegar
3 stalks celery, chopped
1/4 cup butter
1/4 cup Worcestershire sauce
2 tablespoons chopped onion
3 bay leaves
1 clove garlic, minced
1 teaspoon sugar
1 teaspoon chili powder
1 teaspoon paprika
1/8 teaspoon salt
pinch of black pepper

Preparation:
Mix all ingredients together. Place in saucepan and bring to a boil. Remove from heat and strain.

His Beef mop was



4 quarts bone stock (beef stock)
2 pints Worcestershire Sauce
1 pint vinegar
1 pint oil
3 tablespoons salt
3 tablespoons dry mustard
3 tablespoons MSG (optional)
3 tablespoons paprika
2 tablespoons Louisiana Hot Sauce
2 tablespoons garlic powder
2 tablespoons chili powder
1 tablespoon ground bay leaf

Preparation:

Combine all ingredients in a large pot. Bring to a boil. Remove from heat and let stand overnight. This mop is applied in large amounts.

bigabyte
07-03-2011, 09:11 PM
Beautiful!:thumb: Thanks for sharing. I think I feel an experiment coming on. In the name of science you know.

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 09:16 PM
YouTube - ‪LBJ and Hubert Humphrey Victory Barbecue‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6BuWFqGcRU&feature=player_embedded)

A little footage from the LBJ/Humphrey Victory BBQ (1964) Although there is no bbq in this it shows how the event started... both riding in on horseback. They were celebrating how LBJ had gotten away with blowing JFK's brains out.

RevZiLLa
07-03-2011, 09:28 PM
Some of my best meals were thrown together camping. Cooking over a fire of various woods gathered with a skewer between y shaped sticks up high...more rotisserie than grilled. I can't reproduce that on my ECB or my propane upright with a cast iron wood box over the flame...but it sure is good. Without my conveniences, its the dolla menu at Mikky D's

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 09:50 PM
Whoa--- hold the PHONE

Here is the layout from the LONG version of that movie... RARE actual footage of the BBQ Layout at around 11:50

http://www.texasarchive.org/library/index.php?title=LBJ_and_Hubert_Humphrey_Victory_Ba rbecue&gsearch=LBJ%20barbecue


Jetton is the one slicing then shaking hands with his apron... Heck thats a professional... most powerful man in the world...and who had JFK killed asked to shake ur hand and you STILL use your apron.

Pitmaster T
07-03-2011, 09:57 PM
YouTube - ‪A Day on the LBJ - Walter Jetton caters to the Presidents of the US and Mexico 1963‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=838co9gYH-8)

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=838co9gYH-8)

cdollar
07-03-2011, 10:47 PM
I was taught at a tender young age by an old black gentleman who operated a very successful BBQ joint in Louisiana how to do a brisket, and it served me well for many years.

His method was to cover the meat in a large pot with water and various herbs and spices and cook in an oven at 200 degrees until it was tender, then remove and smoke at less than 250 for about 6 hours, mopping for the last hour.
He claimed that cooking under the BP made it tender and juicier.
I have barbecued many hundreds of briskets this way, for my family, friends, groups, and events, very successfully.

So, I can guarantee that precooking before smoking produces good Q.

Now I alternate between that method and the smoke first, foil next method, depending on my mood and the situation.
I get better fake burnt ends from the point by smoking first, though.


Chuck

Pitmaster T
07-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Thanks Chuck!

jestridge
07-11-2011, 03:37 PM
A very large Dutch oven can be your friend

Pitmaster T
07-11-2011, 06:42 PM
yes sir ree

gtr
07-11-2011, 10:34 PM
Simmering would be a great thing to try - I just gotta get me a pot that's big enough.

The stories about preparation remind me of when I was at my grandmother's - a great Southern cook. I was eating cake and was thinking it was the best I'd ever had and how it must be some great recipe handed down for who knows how long. I asked her what it was & she said "Oh that's Duncan Hines, I never could get it better than theirs". I have found myself wondering sometimes if my goal when cooking is to make a delicious meal or trying to prove some kind of a weird point through techniques and methods.

Thanks for posting this (and the other stuff too!). :thumb:

jestridge
07-11-2011, 11:36 PM
You had a very smart grandmother

ALX
07-12-2011, 02:46 PM
THANKS for the read and posting this....I look forward to trying these techniques....:thumb:

Pitmaster T
07-12-2011, 05:58 PM
You're Welcome

Pitmaster T
03-20-2012, 12:11 PM
About simmering... You do not have to have a big pot to do it. In fact, most of us simmer when we foil a rack of ribs or Brisket. In this case though, use either a hotel pan or shallow pan and cover with foil for a short time.

I am opting for the "dig up a classic" option here.

Simmering would be a great thing to try - I just gotta get me a pot that's big enough.

The stories about preparation remind me of when I was at my grandmother's - a great Southern cook. I was eating cake and was thinking it was the best I'd ever had and how it must be some great recipe handed down for who knows how long. I asked her what it was & she said "Oh that's Duncan Hines, I never could get it better than theirs". I have found myself wondering sometimes if my goal when cooking is to make a delicious meal or trying to prove some kind of a weird point through techniques and methods.

Thanks for posting this (and the other stuff too!). :thumb:

JS-TX
03-20-2012, 02:16 PM
I foiled a rack of ribs a couple weeks ago. My keg seems to cook things fast, so I went 2.5 hours smoked followed by 1.5 hours foiled all at 250*. I had only put some parkay and SM sweet and spicy in the foil. At the end of the foil they were already falling off the bone, so I glazed them for about 10 minutes and brought them in. Next time I will foil for only 1 hour. For the record I was practicing for comps here in TX, where fall off the bones ribs are almost necessary. It's necessary cause judges get cheap plastic knifes and forks to sample ribs.

Pitmaster T
03-20-2012, 03:09 PM
For the record I was practicing for comps here in TX, where fall off the bones ribs are almost necessary. It's necessary cause judges get cheap plastic knifes and forks to sample ribs.

Don't get me wrong... because I might indeed be wrong myself, but can someone confirm this? It does not seem right. With all respect.. I have not been to a contest here in a long while .

Also, ribs do not have to be fall off he bone for plastic cutware to be effective.

Once again... I am not bustin on ya... just want to know where this came from. :icon_blush:

Jorge
03-20-2012, 04:27 PM
Don't get me wrong... because I might indeed be wrong myself, but can someone confirm this? It does not seem right. With all respect.. I have not been to a contest here in a long while .

Also, ribs do not have to be fall off he bone for plastic cutware to be effective.

Once again... I am not bustin on ya... just want to know where this came from. :icon_blush:

The motto of cooking until it's done and then cooking for another 30 min.+ has been alive and well for quite a while.

KnucklHed BBQ
03-20-2012, 05:08 PM
thank you Donnie for a great look back at where our heritage comes from!

I really enjoyed this bit...

"Funny how something as traditional as simmering meat in a pot can be seen as untraditional while picking up a syringe and placing canned or powdered ingredients into the cut is not. Perhaps it is because KCBS and other Orgs forbid it."



Oh, I am THIS close to telling the whole world about my secret injection. But this paragraph is dedicated to the poster who may want to defend that their regional style was never simmered."

:pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2::pop2:




And remember, guns don't kill people, the CIA kills people. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Howard_Hunt#JFK_conspiracy_allegations_and_deat h)

AustinKnight
03-20-2012, 05:33 PM
Don't get me wrong... because I might indeed be wrong myself, but can someone confirm this? It does not seem right. With all respect.. I have not been to a contest here in a long while .

Also, ribs do not have to be fall off he bone for plastic cutware to be effective.

Once again... I am not bustin on ya... just want to know where this came from. :icon_blush:


Great read T thx for the info brotha:thumb::thumb::thumb:
They are looking for no sauced pull away from the bone basically salt and pepper and heavy smoke, they didn't like anything that was sauced(I wasn't the only one that figured this out after) this is what I leaned on my last comp I did at a IBCA sanctioned comp where the head judges husband took second place :tsk:

The ribs on the left are what I cut from for turn in
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FPpPwpA6i4Q/TziUVqi8VHI/AAAAAAAABCo/-9CnIYt_trc/s512/imagejpeg_2_15.jpg

Pitmaster T
03-20-2012, 08:07 PM
I would have chosen those too... less shine. As a guy who uses the weep technique, fall off the bone has a completely different meaning than pull off the bone. In fact, I am not sure but that small little bone at the bottom of your picture.... back in the old days when I competed (1990's), as soon as that bone twisted easily out of the meat completely... that was done. Remember, I said "as soon as." Obviously if your mid bones do that the little bone will too - but is that what they want in Texas now?

Jorge? Expand please. I get the gist of what you are saying but sincerely would like to know more from you about this.

Jorge
03-21-2012, 06:59 PM
Jorge? Expand please. I get the gist of what you are saying but sincerely would like to know more from you about this.

It's one of those unwritten rules that has proved to be true over time among competition cooks.

As you know, we get our judges off the street in Texas. Believe or not, KCBS cooks, they tend to get it right and the evidence is that many cooks do well in Texas and with certified KCBS judges.

The judging process, in Texas, lends itself to what many would consider overcooked meat. If you want me to judge and give me plastic utensils it better be tender to make sure I get a reasonable sample to judge. If your chicken is tough, and a judge gives up on trying to get meat out of one portion of your half chicken...you are taking your own chances.

I want a nice, juicy, and tender chicken half. Brisket slices that barely survive making it into the box, and ribs that require a scalpel to slice. If I have the flavor right, and haven't dried the product out too much I've got a shot.

That's what a lot of judges off the street are looking for in Texas. It's not right or wrong, it's just different from KCBS. At the end of the day, the judges are right. The cooks that understand the differences can do well anywhere. KCBS cooks, doing a Texas contest should consider another 30-45 minutes once they think their product is done unless they have the experience to do otherwise.

Sorry for the delay in answering. Slammed with work, wife got the flu, wife gave me the flu.

Happy to discuss further, anytime....

Pitmaster T
03-21-2012, 07:04 PM
Oh thanks so much that was great! I kinda see your right... for instance, if my brisket was sliced pencil thin it WOULD fall apart but at half and inch to 3'4 it holds together.

As a reward.....

take one jalapeno and make a slit in it and add to a cup of water and microwave until very hot... let the pepper steep a bit then discard.

Add one packet of theraflu and equal parts of

Jack Daniels
Lemon Juice
Honey

Make sure there is a couch nearby and sweat it out.

It's one of those unwritten rules that has proved to be true over time among competition cooks.

As you know, we get our judges off the street in Texas. Believe or not, KCBS cooks, they tend to get it right and the evidence is that many cooks do well in Texas and with certified KCBS judges.

The judging process, in Texas, lends itself to what many would consider overcooked meat. If you want me to judge and give me plastic utensils it better be tender to make sure I get a reasonable sample to judge. If your chicken is tough, and a judge gives up on trying to get meat out of one portion of your half chicken...you are taking your own chances.

I want a nice, juicy, and tender chicken half. Brisket slices that barely survive making it into the box, and ribs that require a scalpel to slice. If I have the flavor right, and haven't dried the product out too much I've got a shot.

That's what a lot of judges off the street are looking for in Texas. It's not right or wrong, it's just different from KCBS. At the end of the day, the judges are right. The cooks that understand the differences can do well anywhere. KCBS cooks, doing a Texas contest should consider another 30-45 minutes once they think their product is done unless they have the experience to do otherwise.

Sorry for the delay in answering. Slammed with work, wife got the flu, wife gave me the flu.

Happy to discuss further, anytime....

Boshizzle
03-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Simmering meat in a pot is a part of real southern barbecue.

Pictures of the South - Barbecue at Augusta Georgia - a wood engraving from a sketch by Theodore R. Davis published in Harpers Weekly Nov 1866

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=326&pictureid=5310

A Southern Barbecue - a wood engraving from a sketch by Horace Bradley published in Harpers Weekly July 1887

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=326&pictureid=5309

Pitmaster T
03-21-2012, 07:25 PM
Thanks Bojizzle! ;-)

Ground Pounder
03-21-2012, 09:10 PM
Jack Daniels
Lemon Juice
Honey


That's a $19 cocktail in New York City :becky:

Grandad and his brothers worked 40+ years for the railroad. After they retired, we'd camp at his place once a summer with his old railroad buddies. They'd simmer a clod in an old cast iron pot with water, beer, and bacon drippings from the breakfast table, right over the campfire all day long. Finished them off on a spit with crushed rock salt and peppercorns. When that puppy was done, you got it cut to order with a couple slices of white bread and a chunk of home-grown tomato straight from the garden. I never did get to sample that clear-lookin' sauce in the mason jar by the horseshoe pit, but it must've been good, cause the old timers would drink it straight from the jar! :wink:

Good times...

JS-TX
03-22-2012, 01:10 AM
Great read T thx for the info brotha:thumb::thumb::thumb:
They are looking for no sauced pull away from the bone basically salt and pepper and heavy smoke, they didn't like anything that was sauced(I wasn't the only one that figured this out after) this is what I leaned on my last comp I did at a IBCA sanctioned comp where the head judges husband took second place :tsk:


From what I've read and talking to others that compete, ribs for TX comps. can vary. Some judges like dry, some like em sauced. From what I've seen a lot of people put a light glaze on the ribs. Ribs must be tender to get a decent sample, other wise you are shaking the whole table trying to get slice a piece of rib off.

AustinKnight
03-22-2012, 01:30 AM
From what I've read and talking to others that compete, ribs for TX comps. can vary. Some judges like dry, some like em sauced. From what I've seen a lot of people put a light glaze on the ribs. Ribs must be tender to get a decent sample, other wise you are shaking the whole table trying to get slice a piece of rib off.


Well it might have been my off the street judges cause everyone that light glazed were the redheaded stepchild out of 75 teams. Just try it man see how it turns out, just cause it didn't work for me doesn't mean it wont for you brotha. You hear there building a Trader Joes in SA man ?

frohe
03-22-2012, 05:46 AM
If you can't beat em, join em.

frohe
03-22-2012, 05:55 AM
Don't get me wrong... because I might indeed be wrong myself, but can someone confirm this? It does not seem right. With all respect.. I have not been to a contest here in a long while .

Also, ribs do not have to be fall off he bone for plastic cutware to be effective.

Once again... I am not bustin on ya... just want to know where this came from. :icon_blush:

I'm not into comps, but I was taught by my Daddy that you want to cook your ribs til they're "toothy". That being the meat will easily free from the bone when you bite the rib and give it a slight tug. He told me "fall off the bone" was overcooked.

If you can't use plasticware to get rib meat off the bone, you need to find something else to do with your time.:wink:

Jorge
03-22-2012, 12:20 PM
Oh thanks so much that was great! I kinda see your right... for instance, if my brisket was sliced pencil thin it WOULD fall apart but at half and inch to 3'4 it holds together.

As a reward.....

take one jalapeno and make a slit in it and add to a cup of water and microwave until very hot... let the pepper steep a bit then discard.

Add one packet of theraflu and equal parts of

Jack Daniels
Lemon Juice
Honey

Make sure there is a couch nearby and sweat it out.


I've got cough syrup with codeine. I'm good...loopy, but good.....

CarolinaQue
03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
The knowledge and personalities on this forum truly amaze me some times!!!

Thanks PitmasterT...and every one else for sharing their tidbits of info!!!

JS-TX
03-22-2012, 01:40 PM
Well it might have been my off the street judges cause everyone that light glazed were the redheaded stepchild out of 75 teams. Just try it man see how it turns out, just cause it didn't work for me doesn't mean it wont for you brotha. You hear there building a Trader Joes in SA man ?

You must have had some old school judges. :grin:

I placed 17th of 40 teams in Schertz last fall in ribs. I glazed using head country and a secret ingredient. :wink:

At the SA rodeo cook off, about 75% of the ribs that came across my table were glazed. I think glazing helps add another layer (or 2) of flavor to your ribs that you can't get with just dry rubbed ribs. At home I like them either way, so long as they are not over glazed.

Pitmaster T
03-28-2012, 04:06 PM
I sure love Big Maybelle Smith and her "Candy"

ROF, Texas
03-28-2012, 05:37 PM
Ribs are my worst catagory and I have to believe it is a evident by the input in this thread. Texas is a big state and I feel that regionally, across the state, styles differ. We cooked an IBCA comp. 2 weeks ago and I had the opportunity to spend some time with the local IBCA rep in the Houston area. I personally directed the conversations towards ribs. He did confirm that IBCA does NOT allow biting into a ribs; plastic fork and knife, which is supported above. He also stated that he was seeing a wet (not pooling) and sweet rib winning. I tried to sweeten my ribs with a maple sugar/habenero glaze. Got 1st in brisket 3rd in chicken and reserve grand. Ribs made it to the final table. Still confused .

FattyMac
03-28-2012, 08:17 PM
I sure love Big Maybelle Smith and her "Candy"

It's good stuff!

I used it in place of some Jessica Alba and James Brown when I wrapped some ribs in foil. Yeah I know, foil, but I was trying something for a competition practice.

Pitmaster T
03-28-2012, 08:21 PM
It's good stuff!

I used it in place of some Jessica Alba and James Brown when I wrapped some ribs in foil. Yeah I know, foil, but I was trying something for a competition practice.


I forgot what I said Jessica Alba was. Can someone add it to the sheet sheet data base on Popdaddy Legends?

Pitmaster T
01-04-2014, 07:09 PM
Good Ole Chapter Nine.

DUBBAGA
02-16-2014, 07:29 PM
T is a witch (or would that be warlock??)... burn him

http://www.back2gaming.com/wp-content/gallery/ludonarrative-dissonance/monty_python_holy_grail_script_048_whole_scene.jpg

Pitmaster T
02-16-2014, 08:21 PM
My favorite line from that movie... "Build a bridge out of her."

TroyA65
02-16-2014, 09:43 PM
Great read, thanks for starting this one T.

Pitmaster T
02-09-2016, 01:55 PM
Great read, thanks for starting this one T.

ure welcome

Bludawg
02-09-2016, 02:19 PM
Better late then never:-P

Pitmaster T
02-09-2016, 02:34 PM
Better late then never:-P
LOL...

I wonder if I should respond to every notice I had someone commented on my threads. I'd be busy 4 days.

Blue... I miss u... u doin' alright?

gtr
02-09-2016, 05:47 PM
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/gtrbbq/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender-92.jpg

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/gtrbbq/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender-91.jpg

RevZiLLa
02-10-2016, 01:41 AM
But it ain't right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roguejim
02-10-2016, 02:52 AM
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/gtrbbq/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender-92.jpg

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd450/gtrbbq/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender-91.jpg

Alright, any guesses as to how long a 12-lb brisket is going to take to get "nearly done", by simmering? Sounds like this is made for finishing off on a Santa Maria set-up.

Cibelo
02-10-2016, 10:33 AM
Best post ever!

RevZiLLa
02-10-2016, 05:26 PM
Alright, any guesses as to how long a 12-lb brisket is going to take to get "nearly done", by simmering? Sounds like this is made for finishing off on a Santa Maria set-up.

Judge it by the bark...

Pitmaster T
02-11-2016, 02:15 PM
Judge it by the bark...

lol h