Dry Heat vs Wet Heat for Competetion level bark.

[The_Kapn]

Anyone have an opinion on the bark quality produced by dry heat compared to moist heat?

We think that dry heat helps with Chickie skin, seems to get crispy and not so tough and mushy.

DF and I notice that some of the top level teams use water in the bottom of their biggo Lang and Klose cookers, others cook "dry".

I know the fluid is there primarily for heat stability and the meat itself does not appear to absorb the moisture or flavor.

But, I would think the moisture would have an effect (good or bad?) on the rub and affect the quality of the bark.

Ideas or experience here?????
Anyone experiment???

Thanks,
TIM

[BBQchef33]

KC and I were talking about this last week. In the new vertical offset pit(that i no longer have. :( was made so the fire can be slid out of the firebox and into the vertical chamber under the water pan. The intention was to remove the waterpan at the end of a cook and go for a more direct heat effect. Hopefully this would fix the chicken skin and also help produce a dryer bark. In the BYC however, I dont always use water. So even going strictly offset with dry heat, I still had a softer bark and rubbery chicken skin. The only way to improve that was to, at the end of a cook, move closer to the heat source and get temps into the grilling range >400.

[spicewine]

My Smokers utilize both moist and dry heat. In competition I use moist heat and then at the end empty the water pan and firm up the bark for the last hour or so with dry heat. We have won many times and always finish in the top numbers.

[The_Kapn]

My Smokers utilize both moist and dry heat. In competition I use moist heat and then at the end empty the water pan and firm up the bark for the last hour or so with dry heat. We have won many times and always finish in the top numbers.
Interesting--Thanks

TIM

[jeffsasmokin]

Amazing, Phil! I was contemplating the same thing this weekend. Spraying, wrapping and dry coolering my Brisket last bash, seemed to make the bark real moist. I kinda pride myself on my Brisket rub, and using the dry cooler seemed to take the "bite" away from it - although it made it like budda! Has anyone tried unwrapping it after a couple of hours in the cooler, then putting it back on the rack for an hour or so? Or even throwing it on the grill and kinda searing the bark for a short time?

My guests didn't notice (they were too busy stuffin' their faces), but I did.

[chad]

Unwrapping in the cooler won't accomplish anything - the moisture is still there. The cooler time is 1. to hold the heat until you're ready to eat and/or 2. to finish off the last of the tenderizing - so unwrapping is futile.
If you get good product without cooler time then don't change!! :D

Putting a brisket on the grill after I've worked 8-12 hours - I don't think so! The extra handling would tend to rub the bark off. You usually don't have an extra grill at a cook off and time is the one thing that is in really short supply!

At competition the more you handle the product the bigger chance you'll fark it up, drop it, overcook it, or burn it.

That's the reason we're kicking this around in the COMPETITION forum - drier cooking to near the very end is probably the answer - foil only if you have to before prep. What we do at cook offs is not necessarily what we do at home -- for example: my fall off the bone ribs at home!!

[jeffsasmokin]

Unwrapping in the cooler won't accomplish anything - the moisture is still there. The cooler time is 1. to hold the heat until you're ready to eat and/or 2. to finish off the last of the tenderizing - so unwrapping is futile.
If you get good product without cooler time then don't change!! :D

Putting a brisket on the grill after I've worked 8-12 hours - I don't think so! The extra handling would tend to rub the bark off. You usually don't have an extra grill at a cook off and time is the one thing that is in really short supply!

At competition the more you handle the product the bigger chance you'll fark it up, drop it, overcook it, or burn it.

That's the reason we're kicking this around in the COMPETITION forum - drier cooking to near the very end is probably the answer - foil only if you have to before prep. What we do at cook offs is not necessarily what we do at home -- for example: my fall off the bone ribs at home!!Oops, My bad! Wasn't paying attention to the Forum Heading! Sorry! :mrgreen: Saw the post, and it struck my interst.

[chad]

I'm not trying to control the forum -- it's just that we're discussing competition turn-in and the timing and methodology may change. Tim is sounding out competitors to see what their consensus is for getting bark under the constraints of a cook off.

But, if you get good brisket bark using a technique different from the forum then stick with it!! Brethren don't have the only answer (heck we even argue over mustard!) - but all the different techniques will yield good product - just a bit different.

[The_Kapn]

I'm not trying to control the forum -- it's just that we're discussing competition turn-in and the timing and methodology may change. Tim is sounding out competitors to see what their consensus is for getting bark under the constraints of a cook off.

But, if you get good brisket bark using a technique different from the forum then stick with it!! Brethren don't have the only answer (heck we even argue over mustard!) - but all the different techniques will yield good product - just a bit different.

DF is right--as "almost" always :lol:

My "home cooking" does not resemble what we do for competetion.
No problem for me--two different worlds and goals.

TIM

[jeffsasmokin]

(heck we even argue over mustard!). So I've seen! :D

[Bill-Chicago]

I don't compete, but have followed J Minions tips on getting good bark

I now make sure to incude a good amount of sugar, or brown sugar, in my rubs.

And my spray bottle always has something sweet

I get awesome bark

[The_Kapn]

I don't compete, but have followed J Minions tips on getting good bark

I now make sure to incude a good amount of sugar, or brown sugar, in my rubs.

And my spray bottle always has something sweet

I get awesome bark

Bill- great!

Notice any difference between Dry Heat and Wet Heat???

TIM

[Bigdog]

I'm not trying to control the forum -- it's just that we're discussing competition turn-in and the timing and methodology may change. Tim is sounding out competitors to see what their consensus is for getting bark under the constraints of a cook off.

But, if you get good brisket bark using a technique different from the forum then stick with it!! Brethren don't have the only answer (heck we even argue over mustard!) - but all the different techniques will yield good product - just a bit different.

DF is right--as "almost" always :lol:

My "home cooking" does not resemble what we do for competetion.
No problem for me--two different worlds and goals.

TIM

I understand what you are saying, but have a problem with it as well. If it is the best Q, then it should win. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a competition cook.

[The_Kapn]

I understand what you are saying, but have a problem with it as well. If it is the best Q, then it should win. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a competition cook.

_________________
Bigdog
Certainly not meaning to stir up anything :lol:

My "home que" is meant for the friends, family, and neighbors.
I use no rubs, just inject (as appropriate) and spray.
Ribs are "fall off the bone".
Most Brisket is chopped or pulled for samiches.
No "aging" or other tedious chores.
Buy good stuff, prep it, cook it, and enjoy!
I do not even fuss over skin on the chickie (fact is, I just pull it off first--easy).

Just great food for the "consumers".

In competetion, my "consumer" is the judges.
To get great scores from them, we have to make them happy,
We must conform to their expectations, norms, and tastes if we want to succeed.
"Best" is in their mind--not mine (although I wish it were).
I have no problem with that at all.

Just looking for "the edge" to help.

TIM

[The_Kapn]

My Smokers utilize both moist and dry heat. In competition I use moist heat and then at the end empty the water pan and firm up the bark for the last hour or so with dry heat. We have won many times and always finish in the top numbers.
Jay,

You still have me thinking (I know, a dangerous thing)!

Have you experimented with "all dry" or "all moist"?

Any thoughts on the Pros and Cons of each?

Thanks,

TIM

[jeffsasmokin]

I have too many questions.................all this is stuff I've been contemplating to myself! I don't compete yet..............so I'll just sit back and listen.

[kcquer]

OK, I cook on both the queer and the Cimmaron. I usually don't use water in the horz, so I cook both "wet and dry". I really can't tell much difference. Wrapping or not makes a much bigger difference.

If using sauce in your presentation the bark is gonna get soggy anyway.

Jeff, I have unwrapped (and back to the smoker)a couple times and ended up with a drier flat than I would have liked. Maybe improved timing would make this effective but I have my doubts. Bark is nice to look at and fun to munch on while carving but on a slice of flat, % wise ends up adding very little to the finished product. If you like firm bark on brisket, make burnt ends from the point and let the flat have bark that's a bit mushy to ensure moist slices, JMHO.

[spicewine]

Have you experimented with "all dry" or "all moist"?

Any thoughts on the Pros and Cons of each?


All dry can be done, but you have to pay closer attention to what is happening or you will dry out. When I say moist heat I don't mean rolling boil steam. All moist has never worked well for me. Bark is mushy ect.

[jminion]

I have been using WSMs for competition for years and normally always have water in the water pan. That combination has given me many top finishes in all 4 meats.
Chicken I don't look for crispy skin, when I'm done it is tender not crispy.

[Bill-Chicago]

Bill- great!

Notice any difference between Dry Heat and Wet Heat???

TIM

Never tried dry heat, but I'm not one to try and "crisp things up" on anything.

Maybe I'll try it and see what happens.

[BBQchef33]

RE: Chicken skin... ok, maybe crispy is the wrong word.. but NOT rubbery is the goal. I find that some higher heat makes it more tender, instead of chewy. I didnt mean crispy like fried or grilled.

[homebbq]

I stopped the water thing several years ago. Have cooked dry ever since, and its worked for me.

And, to comment on the wrapping, and bark comments above. Wrap when you have the color you want in the bark. That has worked for me..

And, chicken skin is a struggle for everyone except the pellet munchers, and the grillers. I do think if the texture, and the flavor, of the chicken meat itself is pleasing. Alot of judges will overlook the skin.

[jminion]

When cooking with moist heat you can get away with heat spikes and higher pit temps. Dry heat
gives you less room for error. I personely like a little room for error. As you can see both work when get the techniques down.

[Neil]

Must you leave the skin on the chicken? I remove the skin before rubbing the chicken then lay the skin on top of the chicken. When chicken is done, just remove the skin and your left with great tasting low fat chicken.

[homebbq]

Well, no one can question your success Jim... By the way, congrats on getting on the board.

And Neil, I know some have gone to boneless thigh's, not sure about skinless. Have you tried skinless in competition? Would be interesting to see how the appearance scores were.

[jminion]

I see very little skinless chicken come across the judging tables and most teams are trying for tender skin not crisp.

Kevin Thanks, it's been interesting first ten days on the Board, already getting letters and complaints that folks want to be taken to the Board.
May be a long 3 years.

[chad]

May be a long 3 years


May? :D

Tim and I shoot for tender but not mushy skin. Let's face it, a LOT of flavor is in the skin. As a judge I try to not let the skin be THE determining factor in a score - but neither tough & gnarly nor mushy will win any points. I've turned in skinless thighs (removed the skin after cooking) and believe it cost me some points - but the skin was mushy and would have hurt anyway.

Boneless is nice but, as a judge, I like to see how the meat comes away from the bone - and as a cook I think the bone helps keep the meat moist.

This thing we do called BBQ is art! Just like any artisan craft the learning is as much a part of the product and the "success". :D

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:

[homebbq]

I know if skin was a big issue, I would not place in chicken as often as I do. I do make sure the skin has a good flavor, but still I know it comes off in a single bite. which is not very desirable.

And Jim, hang in there... People don't understand that your a volunteer!

I spent the last year and a half on the FBA board, and did not run again for 2005 because it became too much time wise. I applaud your desire and effort, and I voted for you. Now I need to send you my agenda :wink:

[jminion]

Kevin
I'm a glutton for punishment, I was on the board of the PNWBA for 2 years and last year started a new group WBBQA which I'm the president, add the next three years on the KCBS board and platter is getting full. Let the agendas come! :lol:

[homebbq]

I guess you are a glutton for punishment... Good luck, I'm sure you will make your impact. Ray made his impact real quick. New blood is always good.